Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby mosc » Tue May 08, 2012 6:31 pm UTC

Inkmoth Nexus, Glint Hawk Idol. That should help your flying problems unless you're up against spirits which is a bad matchup for you. Inkmoth will also help you run land heavy effectively which is key for your deck. It's a turn 6-10 deck which are always the hardest to balance because you care about time advantage and card advantage equally. I'd probably run 24 or 25 lands (4 of em inkmoths). Blade Splicer is the only golem generator that costs 3 so it's pretty much a required 4-of for that deck.

Honestly what that deck screams to me though is blue, specifically Shape Anew. Now I bet you weren't thinking I'd say that! The idea of a Shape Anew combo deck is to play lost of artifact-generating cards that aren't artifacts (ex: Splicers, inkmoths) and sac one of them with shape anew in a deck that only contains one or two superpowerful artifacts with high casting costs. The usual target is Blightsteel Colossus. Something to think about, probably somewhat different than the deck you laid out but maybe a place to utilize some of those cards if you feel like it later (4x blade splicer is a key in both). I played this deck in Standard before Innistrad but I have never found a suitable replacement for see beyond (in case you draw the blightsteel). Could still work as an endgame strategy for your splicers though.
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby Coin » Tue May 08, 2012 6:52 pm UTC

I've recently dug out my old cards from pre-2000 and was wondering if someone could comment on what type of cards make for good sideboard content. Interrupts don't seem to be a used term any more...
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby mosc » Tue May 08, 2012 7:40 pm UTC

Sideboards can be used in several different ways. The most common way is to put in "hate cards" that are generally not useful but can be extremely powerful against specific types of decks. Other sideboards will re-adjust the deck's focus to play against certain archetypes (ex: put in these cards if playing against a slow deck, put in these cards if playing against a fast deck, etc). Sideboards often contain specific cards or card combinations (often called 'tech') that specifically disrupt a deck you expect to play in a tournament. For example, if you expect to play a deck your deck will struggle with that features graveyard return, you may put in cards that remove a graveyard from the game. Nearly completely useless in "normal" magic, these cards exist to refute specific strategies if they ever become too dominant in your pay circle.

The most famous sideboard cards are things like:
Disenchant / Naturalize (artifact or enchantment based strategies)
Tormod's Crypt (graveyard based strategies)
Red Elemental Blast / Blue Elemental Blast (color specific threats. 'Circle of Protection: Red' can even be useful)
Extirpate (combo strategies)
Ratchet Bomb / Spell Snare (casting cost based strategies. Tokens are all zero, for example)
Cranial Extraction / Meddling Mage (specific cards can be targetted. "Name hosers")

The theme is that sideboard cards are cards that you may want in certain situations but do not ALWAYS want. Often it's as simple as "I like creature removal but sometimes I play against decks that don't have any creatures. Better have a sideboard of cards I can sub in for my creature removal so that I don't draw useless cards". You get the idea.
Last edited by mosc on Tue May 08, 2012 8:59 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby Xeio » Tue May 08, 2012 8:25 pm UTC

Coin wrote:Interrupts don't seem to be a used term any more...
They're called Instants now. :P
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby mosc » Tue May 08, 2012 8:55 pm UTC

From that vintage, there's probably a few "mana source"s too, but lets not get into that... 5th edition was fucked up.
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby Coin » Tue May 08, 2012 9:41 pm UTC

Say, what happened to manaburn by the way? Does mana still deal damage to the user?
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby mosc » Tue May 08, 2012 9:46 pm UTC

No. It was removed entirely in M10. Excess mana is removed pain free at the end of each phase.
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby Xeio » Tue May 08, 2012 9:51 pm UTC

mosc wrote:No. It was removed entirely in M10. Excess mana is removed pain free at the end of each phase.
And each step. :P

One of the other notable changes is that combat damage no longer uses the stack, so you can't assign damage, then sac or otherwise save your creature and still kill the other creature.

Most of the other changes were cosmetic or keywording.
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby Jessica » Wed May 09, 2012 4:25 pm UTC

Possibly one of the best articles I've read regarding sideboarding was this one (from the new daily MTG column re-constructed).

I say that because it talks about actually making plans for your sideboards, then just making them hate heavy. It takes a little more knowledge of the metagame you will be playing within, but even if you don't, you can tailor your deck to different types of decks (beatdown, control, combo...) as opposed to specific card types like red, graveyard or counter spells.
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby Telchar » Wed May 09, 2012 10:05 pm UTC

Playing around with a W/G Champion of Lambholdt and Increasing Devotion/Champion of the Parish/Mana Dorks/Wolfir Silverheart for some quick beatdown. Testing it against super fast agro red, which as anticipated is a bad matchup, but still pretty good. Gut Shot really fucks it up so might run Mutagenic Growth at least in the Sideboard but other than that it seems quick and relatively resilient.
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby Sprocket » Fri May 11, 2012 3:26 pm UTC

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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby lizkatz » Sun May 13, 2012 4:18 pm UTC

I made the mistake of playing a deck completely from the pre 2000s against a more modern deck and well... got my butt whipped.
Coin wrote:I've recently dug out my old cards from pre-2000 and was wondering if someone could comment on what type of cards make for good sideboard content. Interrupts don't seem to be a used term any more...
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby mosc » Mon May 14, 2012 3:03 pm UTC

lizkatz wrote:I made the mistake of playing a deck completely from the pre 2000s against a more modern deck and well... got my butt whipped.

There was more "casual magic" back then and the principles of sound deck construction had not come into focus yet. The cards were also deceptive as many cards they thought were strong when printed sucked and many cards they thought sucked when printed were incredible. For example, the ice age common Brainstorm is unarguably the most powerful card in the set, not any of the once popular rares. I bet most decks that existed from casual players back then did not include that card. Also, duals are much more available in today's formats where "real" duals were rarely played due to their cost even as early as 1996. In standard right now, there are two sets of friendly colored duals available that are both stronger than ice age pain lands and can be had for circa $5.
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby Coin » Tue May 15, 2012 8:36 pm UTC

Right, I've taken stock of what I've got and here's a short list:
Fifth edition:
Portal box - Starter set for two people
2-3 demo decks that came with some magazine.
1x Booster pack
Sixth edition:
2x Classic Booster pack
2x Apocalypse Booster pack
Seventh edition:
"Decay" deck
"Way Wild" deck
3x Prophesy Booster pack
1x Odyssey Booster pack

I think I've got that right at least.
So stuff from around 2000 or so. I don't think I'll be able to do much with it.
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby mosc » Tue May 15, 2012 9:42 pm UTC

There are a couple of portal cards I would happily pay you handsomely for if you had them. It was such a small print run and nobody liked the set but...

I am pretty confident the best deck you could put together out of only those resources would be well below competitive with a playable standard deck. That said, there are several cards from those days that are worth some bucks and could be used to purchase other cards with. Most of it isn't worth the cardboard it's printed on but if you have like a Personal Tutor or Natural Order from Portal, good bucks.

Magic isn't a terribly expensive game to get into if you don't buy packs. You pay a lot for the random cards, although that in itself is very appealing to some people. Spec-ing out a deck and buying the individual cards, especially if you limit yourself to cheaper cards, can cost you a very small amount of money ($10-$30 will get you quite a ways). It's often very satisfying to throw a piece of garbage together and then compete with decks that have $50+ cards in them.

I do have one friend though who loves OPENING packs more than actually PLAYING the game it seems. We compromise and play different variations on limited (basically you can only use the packs everyone JUST opened, generally 6 each). Limited costs a pre-described amount of money and somewhat levels the playing field though so if $30 every few weeks doesn't scare you off as an investment proposal, limited can be a whole lot of fun. That said, a good player will have the largest advantage vs a new player in a limited situation. The new player playing a deck designed by somebody else with fairly straightforward strategies involved can compete more easily.

The Green/Black infect deck I laid out earlier in this thread can be built for pretty cheap. There are 2 sets of more expensive lands you could replace with just forests and swamps and the deck would still mostly work. Replacing the dismembers with doom blades as well should cut the price down into the $10 range.
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby Coin » Tue May 15, 2012 11:28 pm UTC

mosc wrote:I am pretty confident the best deck you could put together out of only those resources would be well below competitive with a playable standard deck. That said, there are several cards from those days that are worth some bucks and could be used to purchase other cards with. Most of it isn't worth the cardboard it's printed on but if you have like a Personal Tutor or Natural Order from Portal, good bucks.

I'm afraid I don't have any of those. I've got crap like City of Brass "Land, tap for 1 damage to self and add 1 mana of any colour".
Edit: I do have a couple of Giant Growth though. =)
Edit 2: Oooh, and Wild Growth too
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby mosc » Wed May 16, 2012 2:33 am UTC

Giant growth is a decent card but it's been printed in about 20 different sets so it's not worth anything. Wild growth also extremely frequently printed and not nearly as strong. You may have to post a full card list if you want some help making a deck out of all of it or if anything in the mess is worth money.
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby Coin » Wed May 16, 2012 7:17 am UTC

mosc wrote:Giant growth is a decent card but it's been printed in about 20 different sets so it's not worth anything. Wild growth also extremely frequently printed and not nearly as strong. You may have to post a full card list if you want some help making a deck out of all of it or if anything in the mess is worth money.

Oh I'm not too worried about the value of the cards; I think it's a matter of sunk costs. Thanks for the tips; I'll see if I can make a full list in excel or something, but there are a lot of cards...
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby Xeio » Thu May 17, 2012 11:16 pm UTC

I always console myself after a new buy with the fact that I could make a lot of money if I sold off all my cards. I would never dream of such a thing, but, it lessens the buyer's remorse.

Also, opening things like a foil Cavern of Souls is nice. :P
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby mosc » Fri May 18, 2012 3:38 am UTC

You can play magic any way you want. If you want to buy packs and packs, go for it. If you want to buy individual cards and make a specific deck, there's that option too. It doesn't HAVE to cost a lot of money. The majority of magic cards can be had for about a dime a pop and most more expensive cards generally maintain their value pretty well. If you are interested in the playing part of magic and not the collecting part, a few dollars can last you a lifetime of fun. There's even programs like cockatrice that let you play with all the cards ever printed without owning a single one if you want to go that way too.
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby Bigtraine » Fri May 18, 2012 8:24 pm UTC

mosc wrote:... the ice age common Brainstorm is unarguably the most powerful card in the set, not any of the once popular rares...


I would argue that Necropotence is the most powerful card in Ice Age, but your point still remains to some degree, as WOTC didn't anticipate Necropotence being as good as it ended up being either.
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby EdgarJPublius » Sat May 26, 2012 6:26 am UTC

Here's my latest deck-list for the Infect deck:
Spoiler:
Creatures
Artifacts

Sorceries

Instants

Lands

Totals
  • Cards: 63
  • Creatures: 16
  • Lands: 24


It took me a few games to whittle it down to this( I started the night with a nearly 80 card monster, but bled out quite a few cards after the first two matches to get this), but so far, this version has proven very successful. For the first time with this deck, the amount of mana seems just right, I'm not constantly mana flooded or screwed and surprisingly (to me at least, as I'm used to playing mono-color or a fairly even mix of two colors) I haven't had a problem with not having the right color of mana available for my hand, though the evolving wilds played a big part in that so I may twerk the mana counts a bit still.

The Blighted Agents have been a godsend, winning me a few games outright. I was initially dubious of Assault Strobe, but it has also proven to be quite powerful when combined with the right pumps.
I expected more out of Artful Dodge, but when I was compiling this list, I realized that I had accidentally removed too many when whittling the deck down and I only had one, may play around with them a bit more next week, see if having more of them becomes useful, but I think the Blighted Agents may be all the unblock-able damage I need.

Shock has been hit or miss, they're good for removal in some situations, but other times just take up space, I may put 4 in the sideboard for token/aggro opponents and put two more assault strobes in there. Not sure, will play it a few different ways and see what happens.

I may also play around with the creature count, I don't really like relying as heavily as I am on artifact creatures, and Naturalize/other anti-artifact cards have done some damage, so I may swap some 3 mana cost creatures in, like my Rot Wolfs, or I may go with more 2 cost creatures like Blight Mambas (regeneration could be handy, especially if the problem I'm solving is removal anyway). Still not sold on Putrefax either, but I'm keeping the two I have plus a Green Sun Zenith in my sideboard in case they feel right for some situation.

Oh yeah, and I pulled a Wild Defiance, which just seems mean, I'll stick it in there and see if I can't find more. That + Assault Strobe/Artful dodge could be particularly brutal, but even just in combination with Wild Hunger or Unnatural Predation would be rather cruel :D.

Another add I'm looking at is Blessings of Nature, which meshes nicely with the proliferate I've already got, though I may need more cantrips/draw mechanic cards to make best use of the miracle cost, could go well with some blue cards I have laying about.

I think I've got this deck pretty well locked down now, but I'm still open to any ideas/advice.
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby Telchar » Sat May 26, 2012 3:20 pm UTC

You run enough targeted instants that Wild Defiance might be a good add. I've seen some BG or UG infect decks that run it and seem to be having some success.
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby Azrael001 » Sat May 26, 2012 5:35 pm UTC

Things like Silver-Inlaid Dagger make blighted agent a win condition rather than merely really really good. Runechanters's pike would also work well for you I think.
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby Woopate » Mon May 28, 2012 11:54 am UTC

Went to an Avacyn draft yesterday. My first exposure to the set (I've been moving). Pack 2 had that mythic green white angel. I'd already somewhat decided on colors(blue and white), so I let it pass thinking it was one of them "no big deal" mythics. I take something else and pass it on. Guy I handed it to went wide-eyed and looked at me for a minute, then snatched it up. He rode the thing to 3-0 victory. When I saw the card in the "expensive card" case for 25 bucks, I decided I needed to practice my drafting and brush up on the new set.
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby mosc » Tue May 29, 2012 5:13 pm UTC

Azrael001 wrote:Things like Silver-Inlaid Dagger make blighted agent a win condition rather than merely really really good. Runechanters's pike would also work well for you I think.

It's infect. If you want equipment, you want livewire lash.
EdgarJPublius wrote:I think I've got this deck pretty well locked down now, but I'm still open to any ideas/advice.
2x assault strobe and 2x shocks is not even close to worth swinging red for. Wild hunger I don't think I woud use even in a pure RG infect deck it's way too slow. You don't have the lands for it either. You're drastically slowing down a speed deck, not worth it. If you like direct damage, use gut shot instead of shock since you can cast it for life. Assault strobe simply isn't worth the mana base issues. Be careful with your creature to buff ratio. You've already probably run into games with all buffs and no creatures (typically you get one or two and they kill it and you don't draw another and get swept into the late game). I would put in more removal (which is why I prefer black to blue in these decks) which can both clear the road for your creatures and also slow down your opponent's win condition. Unsummon and twiddle type effects are a big advantage of blue, leverage them. Also, beg-borrow-steal-plead, anything you can to get two more inkmonths. Wild defiance would work well. It would give you a reason to run plague myr's over necropedes at least :P

...

Drafting when you keep the cards you draft is always a compromise between taking the best card and taking what your deck needs. You may have made the correct drafting decision towards you winning the tournament AND handed the guy next to you the tool he needed to win it all. It is quite possibly both. Also, it matters on the size of the draft. In really small drafts, you'll generally want to pull cards like the angel out because otherwise you'll see them against you even if you're not going to play it. Some advise? Don't be afraid to draft 3 colors. Sometimes you can swing it, sometimes you just put one to the side and use the strongest 2. Either way, it gives you a wider net to catch good cards.
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby Bigtraine » Tue May 29, 2012 7:34 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:Here's my latest deck-list for the Infect deck:
... Oh yeah, and I pulled a Wild Defiance, which just seems mean, I'll stick it in there and see if I can't find more. That + Assault Strobe/Artful dodge could be particularly brutal, but even just in combination with Wild Hunger or Unnatural Predation would be rather cruel :D.


A friend of mine played U/G Infect at the Avacyn Game Day and absolutely LOVED playing Wild Defiance. He went 3-2 overall but said it was a blast to play. In particular he got a kick out of using a Gut Shot on his own dude for the +3/+3 effect out of nowhere. So I would highly recommend it.

If you are going for a splashy green miracle card, I would recommend Revenge of the Hunted over Blessings. The extra point of power and tramble seem like they are worth it. And if you happen to get to the end game, you can throw it on one guy and swing with the rest and not get blocked. Although getting the Wild Defiance trigger on several guys from one Blessings might be worth it... Run both!
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby mosc » Tue May 29, 2012 9:10 pm UTC

I still think GB is faster, which also helps in not needing to worry too much about what your opponent does (you basically lose by turn 7 or so automatically) but here's my best shot at UG infect. It'd expect this deck to :
4 inkmoth nexus
4 hinterland harbor
6 island
10 forest
4 glistener elf
4 ichorclaw myr
4 blighted agent
4 plague myr
2 necropede
4 mutagenic growth
4 titanic growth
3 artful dodge
2 gut shot
4 wild defiance
1 livewire lash
SB: 4 Mental Misstep
SB: 4 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 4 Ranger’s Guile
SB: 2 Viridian Corrupter
SB: 1 Gut Shot
24 lands, 18 creatures, 13 instant/sorcery, 5 other permanents

I don't like how easy this deck is to control with vapor snag, whiping away all the buffs and slowing it down. Apostle's blessing and livewire lash both help with that but kind of concede the speed. Ranger's guile and mental misstep both do the job against vapor snag. Apostle's blessing would also add some protection against slagstorm and bonefire (the deck has 14 artifact creatures so whipflare isn't much of a threat if you watch out for it) and I guess you could get some "unblockable" type effects out of it but I'm not a fan. Hopefully, you get them down to the point where sorcery speed board wipers actually help you clear the way for your inkmoth endgame fairly quickly.

I totally disagree on revenge of the hunted vs blessings of nature. Neither I would put in a deck trying to win on turn 4 or 5 almost exclusively, but blessings of nature can work like overrun in a lot of ways for an easier 5 to cast as well. You can target up to 4 creatures giving you plenty of width to trigger wild defiance and livewire lash. 6 is a whole lot more than 5 in a deck like this. So it's both more usable and has more potential.
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby Bigtraine » Tue May 29, 2012 9:53 pm UTC

mosc wrote:I totally disagree on revenge of the hunted vs blessings of nature. Neither I would put in a deck trying to win on turn 4 or 5 almost exclusively, but blessings of nature can work like overrun in a lot of ways for an easier 5 to cast as well. You can target up to 4 creatures giving you plenty of width to trigger wild defiance and livewire lash. 6 is a whole lot more than 5 in a deck like this. So it's both more usable and has more potential.


They both effectively cost 1, because you generally are only casting them for the miracle cost. If you have Wild Defiance and 2 or 3 dudes, then hitting blessing would be better. If you have one dude, I still like Revenge - especially if you have a Wild Defiance out. Plusthe trample can make all the difference, especially in a meta full of lingering souls type of effects. Although I think 18 is too many creatures to play as well, so that could impact our individual preferences.

That being said, I agree that the best answer for the optimal Spike build is probably "neither".
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby EdgarJPublius » Wed May 30, 2012 8:18 am UTC

mosc wrote:
Azrael001 wrote:Things like Silver-Inlaid Dagger make blighted agent a win condition rather than merely really really good. Runechanters's pike would also work well for you I think.

It's infect. If you want equipment, you want livewire lash.
EdgarJPublius wrote:I think I've got this deck pretty well locked down now, but I'm still open to any ideas/advice.
2x assault strobe and 2x shocks is not even close to worth swinging red for. Wild hunger I don't think I woud use even in a pure RG infect deck it's way too slow. You don't have the lands for it either. You're drastically slowing down a speed deck, not worth it. If you like direct damage, use gut shot instead of shock since you can cast it for life. Assault strobe simply isn't worth the mana base issues. Be careful with your creature to buff ratio. You've already probably run into games with all buffs and no creatures (typically you get one or two and they kill it and you don't draw another and get swept into the late game). I would put in more removal (which is why I prefer black to blue in these decks) which can both clear the road for your creatures and also slow down your opponent's win condition. Unsummon and twiddle type effects are a big advantage of blue, leverage them. Also, beg-borrow-steal-plead, anything you can to get two more inkmonths. Wild defiance would work well. It would give you a reason to run plague myr's over necropedes at least :P


Wild Hunger is important for instant speed trample, which is sorely lacking in standard right now (there are two of them, and I run both) and has enough attack that I don't have to toss another pump on top of it to get some decent damage past any blockers. Predation is nice and all, but 99% of the time I just play it with a growth anyway.

Still playing with the Assault Strobe/Shock mix, Assault Strobe has been really handy in tearing down blockers, or as a nice multiplier on my pumps. If I had any gutshots, I'd use them, but I'm probably gonna sideboard the direct-damage in the next iteration anyway, it's just too situational in the local meta-game.

The Pump/creature ratio hasn't been a problem yet, but I'm keeping my eye on it, may toss something like rot-wolf in there, or may just go for Necropedes or whatever.

I'm still skeptical of either miracle card, maybe if I was running more UG so I could run more cards through my hand and have a better chance of hitting the miracle. If I had to choose though, it would definitely be Blessings. Revenge just has no synergy with this deck, while Blessings would play well with both Wild Defiance and Contagion Clasp (Four creatures get +5/+5 for five mana? I'll take that any day of the week, toss in an assault strobe and any hit is game over)
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby mosc » Wed May 30, 2012 2:43 pm UTC

Tokens are indeed a major headache for infect decks but I think 4x ratchet bomb helps immensely in the sideboard. There aren't many instant speed creature generators which means you can punish them during your turn for just a tap and a swing. 4 ichorclaws also help against tokens. Necropedes notably trade for 2 tokens on their own (or two 1/1's in general) which is why I tend to rely on them more. Trample helps as you noted, but I think it's more effective to sweep them away.

Bigtraine wrote:They both effectively cost 1, because you generally are only casting them for the miracle cost. If you have Wild Defiance and 2 or 3 dudes, then hitting blessing would be better. If you have one dude, I still like Revenge - especially if you have a Wild Defiance out. Plusthe trample can make all the difference, especially in a meta full of lingering souls type of effects. Although I think 18 is too many creatures to play as well, so that could impact our individual preferences.

That being said, I agree that the best answer for the optimal Spike build is probably "neither".

Casting them for their miracle cost is a fantasy. Lets break it down a little more. How many turns are you going to have a draw phase when a) you have a creature on the board already and b) need the extra +5/+5 this card produces over unnatural predation. The second effect on revenge of the hunted is not useful for this deck. Your opening hand, you cannot cast for miracle cost. Your first draw, you won't have a creature out. Assuming you didn't get a glistener elf or didn't have a forest in your opening hand (probably about 80% of the time), you won't have a creature out on your second turn either. By the 7th turn, your game will probably be decided. That gives basically 4 draws during the game where a miracle is relevant and even then, that's only situations where your opponent hasn't killed your current creature. The best candidate for revenge of the hunted would be an inkmoth but that requires a summoning sickness cleaned inkmoth with two more mana (one to animate and one to cast the miracle). It's a late game killer for sure, but they both are. Now, if you consider the 5 vs 6 casting in a deck with 24 lands, you get draw number 5 * 60/24- 7 round up = 6 (meaning 1 turn later than you'd get the mana normally) vs 6*60/24 - 7 = draw 8. That's 2 turns earlier, not just 1 mana cheaper. In a deck that's trying to win early, draw 8 is an eternity away. Basically, revenge of the hunted is only a better card on draws maybe 2 along with 3,4,5 and maybe 6. That's not a big percentage of the time. If you plan to win by turn 7 lets say, that's less than half of your total card draw.
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby Bigtraine » Thu May 31, 2012 9:10 pm UTC

mosc wrote:Casting them for their miracle cost is a fantasy.


Then you would run neither. Neither card is worth it if you are paying full price for it each time.

The second effect on revenge of the hunted is not useful for this deck.


I agree, if the game doesn't go long. But a lure effect can certainly be useful when you are trying to push guys through.

Your opening hand, you cannot cast for miracle cost. Your first draw, you won't have a creature out. Assuming you didn't get a glistener elf or didn't have a forest in your opening hand (probably about 80% of the time), you won't have a creature out on your second turn either. By the 7th turn, your game will probably be decided. That gives basically 4 draws during the game where a miracle is relevant and even then, that's only situations where your opponent hasn't killed your current creature. The best candidate for revenge of the hunted would be an inkmoth but that requires a summoning sickness cleaned inkmoth with two more mana (one to animate and one to cast the miracle).


I basically agree with all of this, but it's true for both of the miracle cards.

So, yeah. playing neither is definitely the right call. Unless, maybe, playing a full set of BOTH would be doable. Yes, you will have more dead cards in your opening hands, but you will double up your chance at miracles during the turns when they would be back-breaking.

I decided to play around with a casual blue/green deck on MTGO that I have been toying with. It's not infect, but it does have alot of similar themes - cheap, unblockable blues dudes and pump to push them through early. I think the biggest benefit that Blessings has over Revenge is the fact that the counters stick around. I won a game where I mulliganned to 4, played an Invisible Stalker, miracled a third turn Blessings, and coasted to a turn 6 victory without casting another card. Revenge would not have given me that. In other games, I top-decked a Revenge and was able to push through a BoP or elf for damage with the trample where I would not have been able to with the Blessings. I can honestly say that in my limited sample size, the difference between 5 and 6 mana didnt matter often, but I do appreciate the point you are making with it.
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby EdgarJPublius » Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:50 am UTC

An interesting FNM this week. It was apparently Legacy night, and while I have several good legacy decks, I didn't bring any with me since I didn't know it was legacy night. Still, the infect deck held it's own, pulling a solid 2 for 2 (and one match was very close, one more hit could have won it for me in both games).

There were a few notable (and highly annoying players) at this one.

One guy had a humongous elf/ramp deck that quickly spiraled out of control as the game went on. His final turn took, literally, fifteen to twenty minutes as he had probably half his deck in play, and probably two thirds of what was left in his hand, and would have to shuffle through his hand and recount how much mana he was floating (which he employed several twenty-sided dice to keep track of) between every action. Watching it, I could barely follow what he was doing, but the gist of it was he would tap every one of his eighty-hojillion creatures for mana, un-tap and then re-tap them for another eighty-hojillion mana, and then everything would be flickered, taped, un-tapped and re-tapped for another one hundred and sixty-hojillion mana. But instead of just saying that was what he was doing, he went through every step for every creature (and recounted how much he had floating and looked through his forty-hojillion card hand between every step) and only then would eighty hojillion creatures get +240 hojillion/+240 hojillion and attack.

The same night, four brothers (probably ranging in age from ten to thirteen) dropped in to play in their first tournament, with brand-new purchased event decks (on Legacy night) and not only asked for clarification on basically every rule ability and effect in every game, but also had somehow lost or thrown away all the double-sided proxies that had come with their decks and weren't playing with sleeves, so the Judge had to scrape together four sets of proxies. And they spent the whole time arguing over the sorts of ridiculous trades that young kids just into the game make (for example: creatures are only as good as their power, rarity doesn't enter into the equation, etc.)

Finally, on the same night, another kid (proudly sixteen, probably just got his drivers license judging from the key chain he would meaningfully slap on the table whenever he sat down) also came in with a fresh event-deck for his first tournament and absolutely had to have a Tibalt, but he only ever called it 'that new fire planeswalker that only costs two, y'know, the demon guy' and the only thing he had to trade was a stack of recent-ish (like, nothing older than M10) commons with a few trash rares thrown in, which was, taken as a whole and considered generously, worth four-five dollars, but which he referred to as 'all these cards, like, there's some good old cards and sweet rares in there too, so probably you'd be like, ripping me off if you gave me a planeswalker for them'.

However, I did manage to snag two more Inkmoth Nexus's and another Wild Defiance. Also picked some stuff up that I'll probably use for a deck when the Scars block cycles out.
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby mosc » Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:58 pm UTC

Nice report ;) I also played around with the UG infect deck I posted a few back with mixed results. It's got more midgame but it's more easily controlled and easier for the format's speed demons to race against. Zombies are a particularly bad matchup. Red helps with that due to whipflare. Would be a good sideboard investment. It'll kill your glistener elves but it may buy you the time to win with an artifact creature. Congrats on the 4 inkmonths, that'll really help you out.
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby emceng » Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:23 pm UTC

Ok, is there a decent app out there to play Magic? I search on android, and there are about 100 life counter apps. I just want to be able to play a little on my phone. Don't even really need deck building - it would be complex enough as it is.
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby mosc » Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:02 pm UTC

cockatrice is what I use on my PC but I don't think it's supported on a phone. We're probably still a few years away from what you're asking.
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby b.i.o » Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:08 am UTC

From draft tonight: having a deadeye navigator and a mist raven soulbonded to each other is a good time. (Why yes, I think I will get rid of all of your creatures. And again next turn. And after that.)

Also: Amass the Components is wonderful.
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby Bigtraine » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:22 pm UTC

Deadeye Navigator and Mist Raven sounds like good times. I was able to draft that combo once but never got to assemble it during games. Both cards are ridiculously strong on their own, and together they are virtually unstoppable.

I have done probably 15-20 drafts of the new set now and I am convinced that Blue/Green is by far the best deck in the format. The problem is that when you are in those colors you are fighting the majority of the table for the same colors, which can thin out the selection quite a bit. But just look at the good commons in those colors: Mist Raven, Into the Void, Reel from Reality, the 3/2 flyer you draw a card with whose name I forget at the moment, Wingcrafter, Wandering Wolf, Trusted Forcemage, Timberland Scout, Borderland Ranger; and then include uncommons like: Latch Seeker, Tandem Lookout, Nephalia Smuggler, Druid's Familiar. Throwing a bomb rare like Deadeye Navigator into that mix seems almost unfair! :)
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby Bigtraine » Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:47 pm UTC

I had some good luck with drafting a very aggressive Green/Red deck last night on MTGO. Pack 1, Pick 1 I went with Blessing of Nature (the rare was Dark Imposter, who is a legit bomb in this format, but I didnt want to commit to black so early) and then I picked up a couple of green and white cards until the 4th pack which had a Pillar of Flame sitting in it, so I figured red was open and moved into that.

I LOVE Fervant Cathar in the G/R deck. He is great in R/W humans too, but I dont play that build much. In G/R he won me a couple of games by himself. I think the correct way to build the deck is super aggro (dont worry about Wildwood Geist, Vorstclaw type dudes), and play alot of 1, 2, 3 and 4 drops strinkled in with combat tricks and removal. The nut draw for this deck is as good as any outside of R/W humans IMO.
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Re: Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

Postby b.i.o » Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:10 am UTC

I've had the most luck drafting black. Not many people tend to draft it, and it has good removal. Red's the only other color with a reasonable amount of removal, it tends to get taken really quickly, and red's removal is ineffective against really big creatures.
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