WoWzers!

Of the Tabletop, and other, lesser varieties.

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ProZac
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:10 pm UTC

Big ass numbers and dps/heals is where it's at. We have a few people that don't quite comprehend "Don't wait for your spell to finish, move NOW!"

mike-l
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:09 am UTC

Chen wrote:Putricide feels harder from a coordination point of view. Blood Queen is mainly a numbers thing and people listening to one person yelling out biting instructions. If your guild is good at coordination Putricide is easier. If you're better are big ass dps and healing numbers I suspect Blood Queen will be easier.


Blood queen turned out to be harder than I anticipated, entirely from a healing point of view. Apparently I didn't fully understand the link mechanic, so that caused some issues, and we had some trouble with the air phases (mostly due to people panicking). Took us 7 attempts (which I'm kind of ashamed of), we switched to 3 healers after about 5 attempts (which I'm VERY ashamed of). We'll probably go back to 2 heals next week now that we've seen how the damage comes in (our understanding of the pact of the darkfallen link didn't occur until our first attempt with 3 heals)

Blood princes is the coolest fight so far. A couple wipes figuring out a couple things but not overly difficult, and very fun. Lots going on. Kill was very clean (plus we got our first clean rotface kill! Very happy with the night overall)

Edit: Oh yeah, the Essence buff/debuff was stealth-changed to 1:15 up from 1:00 sometime today (logs from this morning have it at 60 seconds, we had 75 seconds) So much for all my calculations! (10 man only, dunno anything about 25. Needless to say this makes the fight easier and makes it optimal to bite pretty much right away and keep everyone alive, because you hit 5:15 anyway... you can wait for 15 seconds total just like on 25. Note that she fears/flys at 4:00 so it's probably good to wait that 15 seconds split between the first 2 bites just to not be trying to find someone to bite during the air phase when you should be spreading)
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Chen
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:46 am UTC

mike-l wrote:Edit: Oh yeah, the Essence buff/debuff was stealth-changed to 1:15 up from 1:00 sometime today (logs from this morning have it at 60 seconds, we had 75 seconds) So much for all my calculations! (10 man only, dunno anything about 25. Needless to say this makes the fight easier and makes it optimal to bite pretty much right away and keep everyone alive, because you hit 5:15 anyway... you can wait for 15 seconds total just like on 25. Note that she fears/flys at 4:00 so it's probably good to wait that 15 seconds split between the first 2 bites just to not be trying to find someone to bite during the air phase when you should be spreading)


On 25 man it changed from 50 seconds->10 second to 60 seconds->10 seconds IN THE MIDDLE OF OUR ATTEMPTS tonight. We still ended up killing her on our last attempt as she enraged before we realized that the 1-2-4(let die)->6-12-24 progression no longer worked. That was a heart pounding kill :P

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FoS
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby FoS » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:17 pm UTC

Our lag on Wed this week was so insane that Marrowgar did not move when casting his Whirlwind. The Raid stopped taking Damage.
Yes you read that correctly. The instance lagged so badly that the Raid did not take any damage during the fight.
Our Top DPS did about 3.2K DPS on that incredibly random fight.

Things were a bit better on Deathwhisper and from Gunship on were working fine.

We came to a grinding holt on Rot though. A combination of lag, dc's and sheer stupidity meant we kept wiping sub 20%.

I wasn't able to Raid last night so when I logged on at 10pm I found out that for some reason Blizz reset our entire instance.
So our guild has killed up to Saurfang twice this week, unfortunately I missed one of those clears.
"...working as intended"
Oomkin Druid - Sylvanas EU

ProZac
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:53 pm UTC

Guild decided not to do the new wing last night, and we went to finish out plague. Rotface went down and then we put 4 attempts in on Prof P. We had some pretty good attempts in those. First was our 'learning experience' for all the new people (4 of them). Second and Fourth were crap wipes, Third we got him to sub 10%. Our tanks started tanking him in the middle, and he slimed all 4 corners around them, so we had the floor covered with no where to move fast. Being more prepared, next time he gets to phase 3, he should go down.

Speaking of crap wipes, both of those were from someone (same person both times, dps warrior) getting latched onto by the green slime, then having a pile of ooze thrown on them. Is this preventable, because it really just seems like utter crap that you have someone taking the ooze tick and the latch tick, and nothing can be done about it. It killed the warrior both times, which meant it switched targets while everyone was close to it, which caused instant explosion and knocked everyone in random directions and bad juju.

mike-l
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:13 pm UTC

ProZac wrote:Speaking of crap wipes, both of those were from someone (same person both times, dps warrior) getting latched onto by the green slime, then having a pile of ooze thrown on them. Is this preventable, because it really just seems like utter crap that you have someone taking the ooze tick and the latch tick, and nothing can be done about it. It killed the warrior both times, which meant it switched targets while everyone was close to it, which caused instant explosion and knocked everyone in random directions and bad juju.


That sucks. It's happened to us the odd time, you just have to heal through it as far as I can tell. It's a good time for any defensive cooldowns a person might have (barksking, last stand (is this a prot talent or does everyone have it?), blink, dispersion, etc). On the topic of blink/dispersion, spriests and mages can attack the greenslime right away and still move if they get targeted using these spells. We run with both and between the abom and these 2, the slime is half dead before it picks a target.

Chen wrote:On 25 man it changed from 50 seconds->10 second to 60 seconds->10 seconds IN THE MIDDLE OF OUR ATTEMPTS tonight. We still ended up killing her on our last attempt as she enraged before we realized that the 1-2-4(let die)->6-12-24 progression no longer worked. That was a heart pounding kill :P


Wow, that's lame! So ALL the theorycrafting I've done is now useless! The only thing to watch for on 10 or 25 is avoiding having a bite overlap the air phase, which 25 does trivially and 10 requires a bit of waiting on early bites. Gratz on the kill!
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Chen
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:52 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:That sucks. It's happened to us the odd time, you just have to heal through it as far as I can tell. It's a good time for any defensive cooldowns a person might have (barksking, last stand (is this a prot talent or does everyone have it?), blink, dispersion, etc). On the topic of blink/dispersion, spriests and mages can attack the greenslime right away and still move if they get targeted using these spells. We run with both and between the abom and these 2, the slime is half dead before it picks a target.


Yeah you just need to spam heal the target. I had a thought that a BoP might cause the ooze to retarget but we never had the chance to test that.

Wow, that's lame! So ALL the theorycrafting I've done is now useless! The only thing to watch for on 10 or 25 is avoiding having a bite overlap the air phase, which 25 does trivially and 10 requires a bit of waiting on early bites. Gratz on the kill!


Yeah though it did feel kinda stupid to have to sacrifice someone. As long as you wait til near the end of the first 10 seconds to bite the second person, the fears line up pretty well I find.

ProZac
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:15 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
mike-l wrote:That sucks. It's happened to us the odd time, you just have to heal through it as far as I can tell. It's a good time for any defensive cooldowns a person might have (barksking, last stand (is this a prot talent or does everyone have it?), blink, dispersion, etc). On the topic of blink/dispersion, spriests and mages can attack the greenslime right away and still move if they get targeted using these spells. We run with both and between the abom and these 2, the slime is half dead before it picks a target.

Yeah you just need to spam heal the target. I had a thought that a BoP might cause the ooze to retarget but we never had the chance to test that.

Spam healing isn't my job as the druid. I think we'll just have to tell our paladin to not worry about moving and spam heal whoever gets latched. We also had the idea to try Hand of Freedom, but never got the chance.

mike-l
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:35 pm UTC

ProZac wrote:Spam healing isn't my job as the druid. I think we'll just have to tell our paladin to not worry about moving and spam heal whoever gets latched. We also had the idea to try Hand of Freedom, but never got the chance.


In this case he's taking about 7k damage per second, easily outhealed by nourish :)

Chen wrote:Yeah though it did feel kinda stupid to have to sacrifice someone. As long as you wait til near the end of the first 10 seconds to bite the second person, the fears line up pretty well I find.


I agree it was a pretty weird solution, I just don't like that they've removed 'choices' of strategy, and I don't like them changing fights mid-reset, as I didn't get to see the same fight as my guildmates because we ran on Thursday instead of Tuesday. As for the fear, on 25 the bites CAN'T line up with either fear, as the latest one bite can be is 3:45 and the ealiest the next could be is 4:15 (unless the fear is at a different time in 25.. on 10 it was at 2min and 4min)
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ProZac
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:01 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:
ProZac wrote:Spam healing isn't my job as the druid. I think we'll just have to tell our paladin to not worry about moving and spam heal whoever gets latched. We also had the idea to try Hand of Freedom, but never got the chance.

In this case he's taking about 7k damage per second, easily outhealed by nourish :)

I don't know what kind of crack your nourish is on, but I doubt mine gets anywhere near 7k/sec. I think our healing styles are completely different, since I stay completely mobile and heal almost exclusively through HoTs. If the tank takes a large bit of damage, I expect swiftmend + HoTs + other 2 healers to handle it. If Swiftmend is on CD... piss. I guess I could Nourish then... but I never know until I hit my button and don't see a health jump... Making a Power Aura tonight for Swiftmend. My effectiveness as a healer shall jump, as if I already wasn't top guild healer. I'm also fairly sure when I was checking my logs last night from 4 Rotface attempts + 4 Prof attempts, I didn't cast Nourish once.

mike-l
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:20 pm UTC

ProZac wrote:
mike-l wrote:
ProZac wrote:Spam healing isn't my job as the druid. I think we'll just have to tell our paladin to not worry about moving and spam heal whoever gets latched. We also had the idea to try Hand of Freedom, but never got the chance.

In this case he's taking about 7k damage per second, easily outhealed by nourish :)

I don't know what kind of crack your nourish is on, but I doubt mine gets anywhere near 7k/sec. I think our healing styles are completely different, since I stay completely mobile and heal almost exclusively through HoTs. If the tank takes a large bit of damage, I expect swiftmend + HoTs + other 2 healers to handle it. If Swiftmend is on CD... piss. I guess I could Nourish then... but I never know until I hit my button and don't see a health jump... Making a Power Aura tonight for Swiftmend. My effectiveness as a healer shall jump, as if I already wasn't top guild healer. I'm also fairly sure when I was checking my logs last night from 4 Rotface attempts + 4 Prof attempts, I didn't cast Nourish once.


You can see my spec here. My nourish casts every second, and a non crit hits for over 8k raid buffed (about 3700 sp, assuming I'm wearing my abacus. I logged out in my talisman since I was having some mana issues on blood princes and lana'thel), and crits half the time. It's better healing/cast time than regrowth or lifebloom, so I only use these when the healing isn't needed immediately (or there is no HoT up to buff nourish)

As soon as someone gets targetted by a slime I regrowth+rejuv them. Against gas clouds I follow up with a nourish or two, cuz damn those stacks hit hard at 10 down to about 7. On a green slime I go back to the raid but with those hots up, I'm ready to nourish like mad if needed (eg if ooze gets thrown on them)

Edit: I find there isn't much healing to do on Putricide if people are killing the slimes fast. I actually keep the Abom at full, and we only run 2 heals. I'd be inclined to try it with 1 healer... 7 dps would destroy those slimes.

Edit 2: On Rotface I almost never cast nourish either, but I find I need to be more mobile on that fight.. putricide seems really mobile at first but it's not really... just run across the room every 30 seconds. Rotface I find I'm alway moving to get away from slime spray, because I've got the infection, or to get in range of the kiter.
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ProZac
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:23 am UTC

Mine: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... =Lyonhartt

You're definitely spec'd different, no haste emphasis at all. Empowered Touch helps you with Nourish, but I don't have any points to move there with my spec.

Also, our guild mage likes to do the video editing thing. Never did understand, but he makes good use of whatever software it is he uses: http://www.youtube.com/user/stupiful#p/u/0/g1Cx9246ouQ

mike-l
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:08 am UTC

ProZac wrote:Mine: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... =Lyonhartt

You're definitely spec'd different, no haste emphasis at all. Empowered Touch helps you with Nourish, but I don't have any points to move there with my spec.

Also, our guild mage likes to do the video editing thing. Never did understand, but he makes good use of whatever software it is he uses: http://www.youtube.com/user/stupiful#p/u/0/g1Cx9246ouQ


With over 2400-ish SP, haste becomes better than SP for us, so I stick reckless ametrine pretty much everywhere. You can also get a haste back of the same iLvl for old badge (valor maybe?), and a 245 haste ring for valor. That probably gets you enough to spec out of CF, freeing up 7 points for the resto tree. There's a lot of personal preference, but I really like empowered touch :) so it's worthwhile for me. I actually plan to stack even more haste and take 2 points out of GotEM and max out revitalize, but that's a ways off still.
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TTS
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby TTS » Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:08 pm UTC

Mike, I'd probably leave the points in GotEM and drop two from Tranquil Spirit instead. Truthfully, even though Nourish can get a LOT of use on certain fights, the 4% difference on Nourish's mana cost shouldn't kill you, since it isn't your primary heal. 3/3 Revitalize is definitely worth it, it's pretty much considered a necessity at this point due to the utility that it provides. It's a significant DPS increase to kitties, rogues, and DKs. It also provides a significant amount of mana to your raid.

Me and my spec: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Icecrown&cn=Petrushka

Prozac, try REALLY hard to get more haste. The easiest upgrades I can see for you atm are:

Bracers of the Autumn Willow from Jaraxxus 25.
Shawl of Refreshing Winds from Beasts 25. The TOGC10 tribute cloak is similar, and slightly better, if you have the ability to reliably get Insanity in TOGC10.
Band of the Invoker from the Triumph Badge vendor and/or Ring of the Darkmender from Jaraxxus 25.

Those are the alliance names for the equipment, obviously they'll be slightly different for horde. Also, change your cloak enchant to +23 haste, it outperforms +10 spirit, and you don't need -threat. Once you break 856 haste, it drops off significantly in value -- although if you're using rapid rejuv, it still retains a lot of value. Spellpower is always good though, and helps on things besides rejuv, so after 856 haste your focus should shift more towards spellpower.

I was playing around on CharDev earlier this week and came up with http://chardev.org/?profile=343932 as a list of currently obtainable "BIS" gear for resto druids. Due to the lack of a haste/spirit alternative for the shoulder and helm slots, it makes sense to pick up the crit/spirit pieces in those slots to get 4t10.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:23 pm UTC

You forget, I only run 10 man content for the most part. 25 man upgrades aren't feasible. Also, the 856 haste assumes Shaman totem. Our guild has no shaman. In addition, I don't cast Nourish frequently, so the Living Seed points aren't as valuable, and the Empowered Touch is essentially wasted. Celestial Focus works for me. That and Cloaks aren't easy to come by. I've probably lost a roll on the Beasts one 6 times. However, I did just pick up a new cloak today, which is getting gemmed and enchanted for haste.

I also find it funny how you mention revitalize is a significant dps increase for kitties, rogues, and DKs... our guild runs with one dps DK, who isn't even always there. I just recently moved into revitalize to see how useful it is.

mike-l
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:17 pm UTC

TTS wrote:Mike, I'd probably leave the points in GotEM and drop two from Tranquil Spirit instead. Truthfully, even though Nourish can get a LOT of use on certain fights, the 4% difference on Nourish's mana cost shouldn't kill you, since it isn't your primary heal. 3/3 Revitalize is definitely worth it, it's pretty much considered a necessity at this point due to the utility that it provides. It's a significant DPS increase to kitties, rogues, and DKs. It also provides a significant amount of mana to your raid.


Probably right. I since crit is really unvaluable though I will probably still aim to end with maxed revitalize and tranquil spirit and 3/5 GotEM, with 1018 haste on gear.

Also, like Prozac, I run primarily 10 mans, and we run 2 heals, so DPS is usually not an issue. We do have 1 rogue and 1 dk though, so I'm sure it'd be good to get them more energy/RP.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby TTS » Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:28 pm UTC

1018 haste isn't going to be obtainable without a ton of gemming for haste, sadly. And yeah, Prozac, you make some good arguments against revitalize since your situation doesn't really fully utilize it -- it's still some nice mp5, though.

Prozac, I'd really consider picking up Empowered Touch if you're running 10s regularly. Nourish is, imo, more useful to druids in 10s than 25s. A druid's biggest strength is his versatility, and by not using nourish, which when glyphed is a GREAT fast heal and tank heal, you're missing out on a key healing tool.

mike-l
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:20 am UTC

TTS wrote:1018 haste isn't going to be obtainable without a ton of gemming for haste, sadly. And yeah, Prozac, you make some good arguments against revitalize since your situation doesn't really fully utilize it -- it's still some nice mp5, though.

Prozac, I'd really consider picking up Empowered Touch if you're running 10s regularly. Nourish is, imo, more useful to druids in 10s than 25s. A druid's biggest strength is his versatility, and by not using nourish, which when glyphed is a GREAT fast heal and tank heal, you're missing out on a key healing tool.


1018 haste is how much I will have in the gear I plan to be wearing, with Reckless Ametrine in most slots (3x runed dragons eyes and a couple of SP/Spirit gems for good bonuses). This gear list involves only items from 25 regular and 10 heroic, and is actually largely badges and crafted items. 1018 also happens to be exactly how much you need to drop 2 points from GotEM, but this wasn't planned, I just put together my list and it worked out that way.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby TTS » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:59 am UTC

Doh, heroics, I haven't actually theorycrafted a set up with heroic gear -- being on OSX doesn't let me easily use Rawr, and most of the online gear sandboxes suck. Yeah, I can see that then -- getting your haste TOO high will end up with rejuv going too fast, ruining the ability to 5x1 heal.

Ralith The Third
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Ralith The Third » Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:11 pm UTC

So I hit 80, respecced.
Omni.

Chen
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:29 pm UTC

TTS wrote:Doh, heroics, I haven't actually theorycrafted a set up with heroic gear -- being on OSX doesn't let me easily use Rawr, and most of the online gear sandboxes suck. Yeah, I can see that then -- getting your haste TOO high will end up with rejuv going too fast, ruining the ability to 5x1 heal.


You don't need the Rejuv glyph for doing heroics though. Its really only needed for fights where you want throughput on fewer targets. I find regular Rejuv more useful where the raid is taking steady damage just because I can keep it up easier on more targets while being able to do other things. One of the great things about a rejuv on a ton of people is that you can always use swiftmend to save someone if they take a big spike. This is harder to do with the rapid rejuv glyph.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:36 pm UTC

TTS wrote:Doh, heroics, I haven't actually theorycrafted a set up with heroic gear -- being on OSX doesn't let me easily use Rawr, and most of the online gear sandboxes suck. Yeah, I can see that then -- getting your haste TOO high will end up with rejuv going too fast, ruining the ability to 5x1 heal.


@Chen, he meant heroic mode ICC

I make my own spreadsheets, because I'm a geek that way :). And looking at these numbers, it turns out my haste was slightly off because I assumed Wrath of Air and Boomkin aura stacked additively, but EJ seems to say multiplicatively. (Guess what I'll be testing tonight :)) So if this is correct, 1012 haste is my new target, which will probably end up being 1008 since I'll probably just replace a gem with straight SP, and eat the 0.1% haste missing

856 haste and 5/5 GotEM = 12 second rejuvs.
1012 haste and 3/5 GotEM = 12 second rejuvs.

You don't let your haste get too high, you just free up the points in your talent spec, since there are useful things that we don't have room to get. (It's probably the case that by gemming no haste at all you can get down to 932 haste and 4/5 GotEM, and the extra 88 SP is probably worth more than the one free point (which is probably in Tranq. Spirit, so 88 SP vs 2% mana on Nourish)) In 10 man heroic gear though, you are going to have more than 856 haste, unless you switch a haste piece for a crit piece, and I will take a free point over crit rating pretty much anyday.

Edit: With the neck/ring from marrogar 25, 264 tier pieces, badge chest & belt, crafted boots, and heroic 10 rotface bracers, heroic 10 deathbringer staff, I will have 897 haste. Just hitting socket bonuses with reckless in boots/marrogar ring/legs buts me 5 over cap with 4/5 GotEM. This is my new plan, I'm keeping my 88 SP :)
Last edited by mike-l on Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:26 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:01 pm UTC

TTS wrote:1018 haste isn't going to be obtainable without a ton of gemming for haste, sadly. And yeah, Prozac, you make some good arguments against revitalize since your situation doesn't really fully utilize it -- it's still some nice mp5, though.

Prozac, I'd really consider picking up Empowered Touch if you're running 10s regularly. Nourish is, imo, more useful to druids in 10s than 25s. A druid's biggest strength is his versatility, and by not using nourish, which when glyphed is a GREAT fast heal and tank heal, you're missing out on a key healing tool.

As I said, I just recently picked up Revitalize since the points were in Living Seed, and that was about useless. Also, if I were to respec to Empowered Touch, I would likely have to sacrifice haste, making all my spells take a dive. Then you want me to glyph it on top of that? That's putting a lot into spam healing with Nourish and moving away from HoTs. I believe HoTs and mobility are the druids strength. I heal with primarily a Disc/Holy Priest (she switches based on the fight) and a Holy Paladin. They have the spam healing covered. I'm there to make the damage they take less noticeable by a constant stream of HoTs. When the raid is moving, it's my job to pick up the slack. I rarely find a case where I need to spam heal, and even then, I'd be doing it along with the Paladin and Priest.

On a side note, our guild ran an alt ToC 10 that was supposed to net my DK some gear, but in a series of annoying events (mostly involving healers that refused to stay in group for more than a minute), I ended up solo healing it on my Druid. Quite the event, Faction Champs being the most difficult one of those to heal, and our only wipe. In Anub'arak's swarm phase, I was only keeping the tank around 50% while keeping the raid alive. Kinda worrysome but when someone mentioned it she just said "Nah, I'm cool."

mike-l
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:33 pm UTC

ProZac wrote:As I said, I just recently picked up Revitalize since the points were in Living Seed, and that was about useless. Also, if I were to respec to Empowered Touch, I would likely have to sacrifice haste, making all my spells take a dive. Then you want me to glyph it on top of that? That's putting a lot into spam healing with Nourish and moving away from HoTs.


The idea would be to get more haste and less crit on gear, namely your back and rings are upgradeable by badges and would replace the need for CF.

The nourish glyph is great to be sure, but the only thing I would consider replacing with it would be swiftmend, and meh, I like the utility. Also, it's not as good as it looks because if you take the time to LB to buff nourish, the LB (with the same cast time as nourish) heals for less than the nourish does. On the other hand, regrowth and rejuv are both better, so you do get 12% on your nourishes (which is nice), 18% if the raid is taking damage as well so that it's worth casting WG.

Hrm, after typing that I may replace my swiftmend glyph on some fights after all...festergut comes to mind (can't think of any fights where it would be better to replace WG) Guess I need to start carrying around stacks of glyphs.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:27 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:
ProZac wrote:As I said, I just recently picked up Revitalize since the points were in Living Seed, and that was about useless. Also, if I were to respec to Empowered Touch, I would likely have to sacrifice haste, making all my spells take a dive. Then you want me to glyph it on top of that? That's putting a lot into spam healing with Nourish and moving away from HoTs.


The idea would be to get more haste and less crit on gear, namely your back and rings are upgradeable by badges and would replace the need for CF.

The nourish glyph is great to be sure, but the only thing I would consider replacing with it would be swiftmend, and meh, I like the utility. Also, it's not as good as it looks because if you take the time to LB to buff nourish, the LB (with the same cast time as nourish) heals for less than the nourish does. On the other hand, regrowth and rejuv are both better, so you do get 12% on your nourishes (which is nice), 18% if the raid is taking damage as well so that it's worth casting WG.

Hrm, after typing that I may replace my swiftmend glyph on some fights after all...festergut comes to mind (can't think of any fights where it would be better to replace WG) Guess I need to start carrying around stacks of glyphs.


I already upgraded my cloak, and I don't see how my rings are upgradeable. The Ashen Verdict one? I have my doubts. My Dalaran ring? That there ring has spirit AND mp5. People don't value mana regen enough. Imo, if you need to use innervate on yourself, you're not doing it right. It's for those classes that don't have the insane capabilities of mana regen that druids do. You also seem to put to much emphasis on blatant throughput. Lifebloom may heal for less with the same cast time, but it also doens't heal that very instant, which is it's advantage. In order for a Nourish to be useful, the recipient has to be hurt. In order for a lifebloom to be useful, the recipient has to take damage sometime in the next few seconds. Druids are predictive healers. We learn when people will take damage and prepare for it, so when they do, we can sit there and twiddle our thumbs (ok, not exactly, but you get the idea).

Another thing that has me questioning the usefulness of nourish is I've only ever been outhealed regularly by 2 people. A priest that was just crazy, and one was a druid. I asked him how he was doing so well (our gear was nearly identical) and he said "Oh, idk... I just kinda faceroll Rejuv." Sure enough I checked and about 60% of his healing was Rejuv. Granted, these are all in ToC25's, usually a mostly guild run/partial pug, so I can't say I've ran with any 'hardcore' guilds, but you can come across some impressive raiders in those.

Also, is it just me, or is it odd that nearly everyone in this thread is a druid, with most of us main spec resto. I knew there were a lot of us, but goddamn.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:04 pm UTC

ProZac wrote:Also, is it just me, or is it odd that nearly everyone in this thread is a druid, with most of us main spec resto. I knew there were a lot of us, but goddamn.


Chen is feral :)

But yeah, there are a fuckton of druids.

I don't at all disagree with your take on 'druid style'. But Rejuv and WG cover that off pretty well. There are definitely situations when LB is awesome for that reason, but most of the time WG and Rejuv are better. One example is Loethb, but that's pretty outdated. Generally I just cast WG, Rejuv x5, repeat. It's just when that's not cutting it that I turn to Nourish, and in that case, someone IS hurt. Like I said, there are exceptions. Just before the third inhale on festergut I'll throw LBs on the tank, but when the inhale actually goes, I'm spamming nourish. EDIT I'm wrong on this, see below!

As far as the meters go, being a druid puts you on top of the meters for most fights. On BQL, we 3 healed and I did 60%. On faction champs 25, I once did over 50% with 6 healers, and have broken 70% on 10 man. Our class is designed to top the meters in this era of constant raid damage. But also remember that meters are an imprecise metric. Success and failure in healing is much more binary.. did the person live or die. So I did crazy healing, but did it actually save anyone? Or did it just make the paladin overheal more. An example of this is Lady Deathwhisper. I can top the meters on this fight if I want, or I can do virtually no healing, and it makes no difference. The pally still casts just as much, he just has less overhealing. I'm generally eating chicken during this fight :)

Edit: I plan to wear Marrogar's ring along with the Ashen Verdict, but the Triumph badge ring is very good as well. Obviously the Ashen Verdict ring should be in one slot. MP5 is important, but haste is waaay better. Now if that ring was MP5/Spirit/Haste, it would be the best thing in the world :)

Edit2: Who gets your innervate? The only candidate in my run would be the mage, and our feral tank usually gives him one. I usually take my own, but I could see not needing it if I got a Solace. With only the Sliver of Pure Ice as a regen trinket, I still need it on a number of fights.

Edit3: I'm wrong on Lifebloom for throughput! While 1 lifebloom is lower HPCT than nourish, slowstacking 3 (hit one, let it tick a bunch, hit another right before bloom, hit another right before bloom, then let it bloom) is better, since you get extra ticks on the first 2! (I was of course aware of this mechanic, but I thought LB was further behind nourish than it was, so I didn't think it made up the difference) This will definitely affect my plan for Dreamwalker, and Festergut.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Ixtellor » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:57 pm UTC

1) I tried for over an hour to get a pug ToC 10 man going during peak play time Saturday. Could never even form a group, so it appears I will never get to do 10 man content other than the weekly frost runs which will accept anyone cause they are soo easy. Therefore My paladin is approaching max reasonable gear in both specs, and I am slowly getting burned out.
Anyone else have this problem? (I can't join a real raid guild because they hate my playtimes which are low and erratic)

Which leads me to:

2) I tried playing an alt and it is mind numbing. Its a priest and it isn't very enjoyable. So, if I wanted to actually PUG 10 man raids -- which healer class would be the best one? Shamans, Druids, Priests?

I don't enjoy the pally healing because I am always limited to healing 2 people at once (one being tank) and the long ass cast time on holy light means it comes too late in many cases. For 5 man's it is no problem and I have successfully healed every instance except HoR - which scares me to death to even try.

(I seriously hate the 'run through the tunnel' part of PoS because while trying to keep the tank alive as he gets pounded by 10 mobs, I end up falling farther and farther behind which as they run as fast as they can out of Line of sight and heal range. )

Hence, I want a healing class with HoTs or the ability to do group heals.

So Priest, shaman, or druid?


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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:21 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:Hence, I want a healing class with HoTs or the ability to do group heals.

So Priest, shaman, or druid?


Well, this thead has a heavy Resto Druid bias :)

I believe the idea behind holy light paladins is to get s***tons of haste to get that Holy light coming very fast (like 1.3 seconds I think, but I'm not terribly up on current paladin theory craft) Paladins are THE BEST tank healers in raids, but really aren't very good raid healers (they are passable, but druids and priests will destroy them). It seems to me shamans are pretty weak right now, but it could be because as a druid I 'snipe' their heals a lot.. I don't know. Anyone have any thoughts on shammies?

Priest kinda sucks to level til 40, then they become amazing.
If you want to rule heroics, and rule raid healing, then druid or priest is your best bet. Priest has more versatility in having 2 healing specs, and they are very good at both. Druids OTOH can fill every role in the game which is pretty neat too. I love my druid, but I'm probably going to play a priest next xpac.

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Wow, I'm wrong again. TTS you are right, Tranquil spirit is pretty worthless! I now have no plan to go over 857 haste (well, probably 861 cuz that's where gear will put me), dropping the haste/hit bracers from rotface and getting the crit/spirit from festergut instead. The 63 spirit outperforms 2% nourish mana as long as you aren't casting more than 2 nourish in 5 seconds, and if I'm casting that many nourishes, something is very wrong.

Wrong twice in a week about a game I spend far too much time thinking about... owch!
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:01 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:Chen is feral :)

Which is why I said most. :)
mike-l wrote:I don't at all disagree with your take on 'druid style'. But Rejuv and WG cover that off pretty well. There are definitely situations when LB is awesome for that reason, but most of the time WG and Rejuv are better. One example is Loethb, but that's pretty outdated. Generally I just cast WG, Rejuv x5, repeat. It's just when that's not cutting it that I turn to Nourish, and in that case, someone IS hurt. Like I said, there are exceptions. Just before the third inhale on festergut I'll throw LBs on the tank, but when the inhale actually goes, I'm spamming nourish. EDIT I'm wrong on this, see below!

Yeah, that goes back to the Druid's versatility. :) Any time there is raid wide damage the WG -> Rejuv x5 repeat is the way I go too. I always hated Loatheb though. I only got enjoyment out of that fight by seeing how many laps I could run around the boss before he died/someone noticed and was like "Why the hell does this tree keep running for the right side of my screen to the left side every 15 seconds?"
mike-l wrote:As far as the meters go, being a druid puts you on top of the meters for most fights. On BQL, we 3 healed and I did 60%. On faction champs 25, I once did over 50% with 6 healers, and have broken 70% on 10 man. Our class is designed to top the meters in this era of constant raid damage. But also remember that meters are an imprecise metric. Success and failure in healing is much more binary.. did the person live or die. So I did crazy healing, but did it actually save anyone? Or did it just make the paladin overheal more. An example of this is Lady Deathwhisper. I can top the meters on this fight if I want, or I can do virtually no healing, and it makes no difference. The pally still casts just as much, he just has less overhealing. I'm generally eating chicken during this fight :)

Most fights indeed. I could never touch Jarraxus top and Lady Deathwhisper is the same way. I find those fights exceptionally annoying. And I get the idea that crazy healing doesn't always equal good, but I'm usually most overhealing too, so it's not like I'm eating others heals. As noted, I didn't play during BC, but I remember being told in Naxx to 'sit down and take a break' when AoE heals were necessary. I was thoroughly confused. "Druids suck/ed at AoE? Doesn't seem like it."
mike-l wrote:Edit: I plan to wear Marrogar's ring along with the Ashen Verdict, but the Triumph badge ring is very good as well. Obviously the Ashen Verdict ring should be in one slot. MP5 is important, but haste is waaay better. Now if that ring was MP5/Spirit/Haste, it would be the best thing in the world :)
And overpowered by Blizzard standards.
mike-l wrote:Edit2: Who gets your innervate? The only candidate in my run would be the mage, and our feral tank usually gives him one. I usually take my own, but I could see not needing it if I got a Solace. With only the Sliver of Pure Ice as a regen trinket, I still need it on a number of fights.

Used to be the resto Shaman when we had one. He has since quit WoW. These days it's a toss up between our priest and paladin. Whoever is using more mana. If it's a quick/relax healing fight, one of our *3* frickin mages. (Our guild dps, which gets rotated, consists of a warrior, a DK, a warlock, a boomkin, 2 hunters (one rarely around), and 3 mages.) We recently just got a boomkin, which frees it up quite a bit.
mike-l wrote:Edit3: I'm wrong on Lifebloom for throughput! While 1 lifebloom is lower HPCT than nourish, slowstacking 3 (hit one, let it tick a bunch, hit another right before bloom, hit another right before bloom, then let it bloom) is better, since you get extra ticks on the first 2! (I was of course aware of this mechanic, but I thought LB was further behind nourish than it was, so I didn't think it made up the difference) This will definitely affect my plan for Dreamwalker, and Festergut.

I always do the slow stacking for tanks. Let it drop to about 1-2 seconds left and refresh. If I'm using it on someone else, I might stack faster. For example, whoever gets injection on Rotface. If I'm stationary, they get rejuv+Regrowth, then I ignore them. If I have to be mobile, they get Rejuv+1-2 stacks of Lifebloom.
mike-l wrote:Well, this thead has a heavy Resto Druid bias :)

And due to that I would tell you not Resto Druid because there's too many of the damn things.
mike-l wrote:I believe the idea behind holy light paladins is to get s***tons of haste to get that Holy light coming very fast (like 1.3 seconds I think, but I'm not terribly up on current paladin theory craft) Paladins are THE BEST tank healers in raids, but really aren't very good raid healers (they are passable, but druids and priests will destroy them). It seems to me shamans are pretty weak right now, but it could be because as a druid I 'snipe' their heals a lot.. I don't know. Anyone have any thoughts on shammies?

One of my best friends was actually the resto shaman that quit recently. To quote him (on druid sniping), "You're healing people I can't even tell are hurt!" Shamans are terrible with mana right now, but he was always right behind me in healing effectiveness. They're also the most underplayed healer, imo. That said, I would never play one. I'd go priest most likely (if I weren't a druid).
mike-l wrote:Priest kinda sucks to level til 40, then they become amazing.

I leveled my priest to 60 by refer-a-friend (300% xp). I then leveled it with another friend's DK to about 70, and his hunter to about 73. I solo'd up to almost 75, and realized... I fricking HATE my priest. It's ok, I had to get high enough so I could get my inscription to 450 (that's right, all my bank alts are at least 65 for professions). About a week ago I was in a heroic, and I saw a spriest do 20k dps AoE using Mind Sear. I became instantly jealous and started leveling her using the random dungeon tool. Almost 77, and it's much more enjoyable when you have people with you. It's also awesome b/c I have yet to not be top dps in any dungeon (save for that one we had a geared 80 in for some reason). I'm a shadow priest people... I shouldn't be out dps'ing you.

On another note, healing addon's, how do people do it. Hell, along with that, we could get some "link your UI" going. Grid+Clique, configured so each hot has it's own corner, with color changing based on time left. All debuffs that I can dispell or I need to know about (Incinerate Flesh, Mark of the Champion, Mutating Injection, etc) have the icon displayed in the middle of the square, so I can see what type it is.

Longest post evar.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:39 pm UTC

Prozac wrote:Longest post evar.


No kidding!

On another note, healing addon's, how do people do it. Hell, along with that, we could get some "link your UI" going. Grid+Clique, configured so each hot has it's own corner, with color changing based on time left. All debuffs that I can dispell or I need to know about (Incinerate Flesh, Mark of the Champion, Mutating Injection, etc) have the icon displayed in the middle of the square, so I can see what type it is.



Color based on time left, I like that!

I use
Top left = aggro
Bottom left = Mortal Strike
Top right = curse
Bottom right = poison
Middle = Things I care about, Mark, Injection, etc just like you
Border = HoTs

I need to modify it a bit, because I can't see if two hots are up, only that there is one (I can tell between them, but currently regrowth has priority, so if I have a regrowth up, I can't tell if there is a rejuv or not), and I can't tell how long is left. However, I don't think these are very pressing modifications, since I can usually remember what order I hotted people in, so I get a good idea from that. I do sometimes have trouble when I stop to nourish more than once and have to pick up rejuving again, but there are usually enough targets with Rejuv off by that point it doesn't matter.

I always hated Loatheb though. I only got enjoyment out of that fight by seeing how many laps I could run around the boss before he died/someone noticed and was like "Why the hell does this tree keep running for the right side of my screen to the left side every 15 seconds?"

I solo healed it (10 man) in blues, it's made for a druid! Getting 4 LBs to bloom, rejuvs on everyone who didn't get a LB, nourish lowest health right as it comes off, WG + SM = 6k healing on everyone!

LB is also fun on Maly, right before he takes off LB up as many as you can = huge jump on the meters every time that phase hits.

I was sad the day they changed it so HoTs displayed their overheals in the combat log. So much for paladins being number 1 overhealer :)
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:14 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:I use
Top left = aggro
Bottom left = Mortal Strike
Top right = curse
Bottom right = poison
Middle = Things I care about, Mark, Injection, etc just like you
Border = HoTs

Thoughts, as I've basically verbally configured everyone in the guild's grid.

I personally don't have aggro on mine, solely due to there not being room. I did recently remove "Target" from my border and I think I'm going to make it show aggro, or possibly having target+Aggro and Aggro have priority.

Mine is specifically as follows, All HoTs change to yellow at 2 seconds left (except regrowth which is 3 or 4, and red with 1 second left. Lifebloom is also exempt from this due to having color for 'stack counter')
Top Left=Wild Growth (>3sec:Light Blue)
Top Right=Lifebloom (1Stack: Red, 2Stack: Yellow, 3Stack: Dark Green)
Bottom Left=Rejuv(>3Sec: Purple)
Bottom Right=Regrowth(>3Sec: Light Green)
Center Icon=Important dispells, debuff (I highly recommend poisons/curses here. It frees up space and they're easy to identify which type to dispell)
Center Text1=Name to 6 characters
Center Text2=Incoming Heals
Border=[currently empty/soon to be aggro]

I also use GridHoTTimer or something that does the color by time functionality. It took me forever to find an easy way to track HoTs for druids, and I don't see how any druid healer can be effective without something for it. Our Paladin/Priest couldn't understand how I was running out of places to put information on Grid... bastards don't have HoTs to keep track of. Also, the link below is an amazing way to set up Grid. I've just never bothered to get the addons. I'm sort of a minimalist when it comes to addons. I don't use xperl/bartender (seems like everyone does), and aside from Grid being on my screen, it looks like I pretty much have the default UI. It's mostly because I'm lazy when it comes to updating/installing. I haven't updated DBM since ICC released, and even through the ToC patch, I never updated until after it had been out for a couple months.

http://treebarkjacket.blogspot.com/2009 ... cking.html

Those actual numbers are tempting, but like I said... I'm lazy.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:38 pm UTC



That's... amazing. I'm doing that tonight!
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Ralith The Third » Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:08 pm UTC

Is anyone here casual? Besides me.
Edit: By that I mean, Don't raid big time, don't exclusively PvE or PvP, don't care about squeezing every last ounce of DPS/HPS out of a group, as long as you don't wipe repeatedly.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Jesse » Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:57 pm UTC

That'd be me, with my level 60 retadin, also now levelling a priest so I can tank/dps/heal whatever my guild is doing.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby The Utilitarian » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:22 am UTC

Ralith The Third wrote:Is anyone here casual? Besides me.
Edit: By that I mean, Don't raid big time, don't exclusively PvE or PvP, don't care about squeezing every last ounce of DPS/HPS out of a group, as long as you don't wipe repeatedly.

*wave* I used to play wow "hardcore", raids, arena, etc. One day I realized I wasn't having even an ounce of fun so I gave it all up for a couple months. Eventually a casual friend of mine encouraged me to come back since he had just gotten his first characters above 70 and wanted me to play with him. I picked one of my alts and moved to his server and frankly I've been having way more fun since then just doing 5 mans and heroics for a couple hours every few days.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:51 am UTC

Ixtellor wrote:2) I tried playing an alt and it is mind numbing. Its a priest and it isn't very enjoyable. So, if I wanted to actually PUG 10 man raids -- which healer class would be the best one? Shamans, Druids, Priests?


Paladin's are fairly good tank healers for 10 mans. Have another raid healing healer (priest/druid) and you have a solid team. Not getting into pugs isn't class issue its probably a server issue. If you're on a low pop server it'll be difficult to do. On ours (Blackhand) there are always pug raids going on.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby TTS » Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:16 am UTC

I use the setup shown on Treebarkjacket, it's amazing. I switched to it a few months ago in preparation for heroic Anub'arak, since my old setup wasn't as visual as I wanted regarding showing specific debuffs(ie Penetrating Cold). The actual numbers are awesome, and once you switch to them you'll never switch back.

And uh, as someone else pointed out, meters are only one metric of how well you're doing -- in the end, what matters is if people died, especially the tanks. Sometimes shit happens and the "real" tank healers can't cast -- silences(sup Jaraxxus), that nasty curse on Deathwhisper, or on Anub'arak heroic for instance, our paladins have to run to catch up to the person being pursued in phase 2 to BoP them to extend the spike kiting. Not to mention there's always the ever popular "A healer dies" scenario. The situations that call for quick tank healing are what make the glyph of nourish so useful -- it turns nourish into a BOMB that can nearly compete with holy light for single target HPS with 2-3 hots rolling. You'll generally always have at least one, if not two hots rolling on a tank, so that's instantly 12% extra healing from nourish. Wild Growth brings it to 18, and occasionally you'll luck out and have a lifebloom up too, which brings it to 24% extra healing.

Of our glyphs, the only "must have" one is, imo, Swiftmend, and even then it isn't actually mandatory, just really convenient. Not having Wild Growth isn't generally going to wipe a raid -- your meters'll be a bit lower, but usually at least one of the six people that are targeted don't really need the healing, at least on most encounters. Rapid Rejuv is really useful, so I'm almost always using it. What I've taken to doing is carrying around stacks of the three main glyphs I use(Nourish, Wild Growth, Rapid Rejuv) and swapping them around on a fight by fight basis whenever I'm doing anything that is challenging enough to warrant reglyphing. There are fights I go without WG, fights I go without Nourish.. I almost never go without RR nowadays, barring Anub, though.

On the subject of healer compatibility, my absolute favorite setup is either paladin/priest/druid(me), or paladin/druid/druid. Probably has something to do with the fact that my two best friends in game are a druid and a paladin(who has a priest alt). Priests have crazy versatility, especially due to being able to switch specs before a fight to better cater to the encounter. Druids are so versatile that they can manage any role -- raid healing or tank healing(sup nourish glyph!) -- so having two around doesn't hurt :P

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:50 pm UTC

Ralith The Third wrote:Is anyone here casual? Besides me.
Edit: By that I mean, Don't raid big time, don't exclusively PvE or PvP, don't care about squeezing every last ounce of DPS/HPS out of a group, as long as you don't wipe repeatedly.

Yeah, they're around. They just don't post as often as some of us. Even those of us here often are in varying degrees of the HC end. Chen runs 25 man content primarily, and I run only 10 man content and my guild is a connection of people that all know each other personally (save for one disconnect, the friend I started playing WoW to play with and his group he met back in Vanilla WoW that he still plays with).

TTS wrote:On the subject of healer compatibility, my absolute favorite setup is either paladin/priest/druid(me), or paladin/druid/druid. Probably has something to do with the fact that my two best friends in game are a druid and a paladin(who has a priest alt). Priests have crazy versatility, especially due to being able to switch specs before a fight to better cater to the encounter. Druids are so versatile that they can manage any role -- raid healing or tank healing(sup nourish glyph!) -- so having two around doesn't hurt :P


I *hate* having 2 druids in a 10 man. If there's more than 2 in a 25 man I get annoyed. There's a point where HoT effective just takes a dive. It's not as bad if you have a Nourish Spam Druid along, but most of us roll primarily with HoTs. That and my Grid gets confused by having other druid HoTs about, therefore I get confused.

Also, I'll give you that Nourish is a very good ability for spam/tank healing... but that's one situation. And if you're raiding with a Paladin you shouldn't even consider needing to be the spam healer. Druids should be the last ones considered for that in fact... maybe Shamans... idk... I don't know much about shaman healing.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:47 pm UTC

Seeing as Blood Queen is down we figured we'll be doing achievements tonight (since once heroic modes come out its going to be a pain in the ass to do them). Marrowgar, Saurfang and Blood Princes we already have so it shouldn't be too bad. I'm wondering if anyone has done the gunship one yet? It usually takes us 4 mage phases to kill the gunship (I think). I'm thinking the best way of doing it would be to have one tank (and his associated dps team) just stay over there for 2 phases then switch up. I just don't know if Saurfang will get too strong if you do this near the end of the second phase. Otherwise its going to be a lot more difficult to do needing maybe 4 tanks and 4 separate dps groups. The problem there being it'll take longer to kill the mage and it might push us to 5 phases.

Also has anyone tried the Rotface one? It looks like a massive pain in the ass.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby TTS » Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:03 pm UTC

ProZac wrote:That and my Grid gets confused by having other druid HoTs about, therefore I get confused.


Get a better grid setup. The one outlined on Treebackjacket a few posts up only shows your hots on the timers -- you can set something up to show if there are other hots, but besides an indicator indicating that there is a swiftmendable hot, there's not a huge reason to do so.

ProZac wrote:Also, I'll give you that Nourish is a very good ability for spam/tank healing... but that's one situation. And if you're raiding with a Paladin you shouldn't even consider needing to be the spam healer. Druids should be the last ones considered for that in fact... maybe Shamans... idk... I don't know much about shaman healing.


It's a very common situation. You honestly seem to be dead set on not utilizing Nourish, which is sad, since it's such a powerful tool. It ultimately comes down to this -- what other glyphs are there that are worth using over Nourish? Swiftmend, Wild Growth, and RR. Any fight that doesn't have GOBS and GOBS of AOE you can usually sacrifice WG for Nourish. I'm much more reluctant to sacrifice RR, since it is the single most powerful glyph we have in terms of single-target HPS increase.

Here's a tiny list of things that was incapacitate your "spam healer" and leave you to have to pick up his or her slack for a while.. I'll stick to ICC since ToC is honestly easymode on anything but 25 heroic:

Getting impaled on Marrowgar
Getting locked out of (big heal) by the curse, getting chased by a ghost, or having to move out of DnD on Deathwhisper.
Getting targeted by blood beasts on Saurfang(Tank healers, especially paladins, deal with this a lot on 25 -- on occasion a raid will have a holy paladin turn on RF to direct all of the beasts in the same direction so knockback moves can be used
Getting Mutated Infection on Rotface.
Having to run out of the melee group for spores on Festergut.
Being chased by the fireball on Blood Princes
Getting chased by the either ooze, although especially the brown one, on Putricide
Getting targeted by Pact of the Darkfallen or Swarming Shadows on Blood Queen.

That's just a handful of what'll mess with your tank healers in the first 3 wings of ICC. When they aren't being messed with, obviously they'll do a better job than you at tank healing and you can probably stick to covering the raid, if there even if any raid damage -- what really counts though is keeping the tanks alive when the dedicated tank healers can't react due to whatever circumstances there are in that fight. Your HoTs and swiftmend aren't going to be enough long-term on most fights, and that'll only become even more apparent once heroic mode encounters unlock in a few weeks.

Chen wrote:I'm wondering if anyone has done the gunship one yet? It usually takes us 4 mage phases to kill the gunship (I think). I'm thinking the best way of doing it would be to have one tank (and his associated dps team) just stay over there for 2 phases then switch up. I just don't know if Saurfang will get too strong if you do this near the end of the second phase.


We did it last week on our first try, AND the first away tank disconnected at the start, lol. The only way to do it is to have people stay over for 2 phases. We sent 1 tank + 2-3 DPS each time, and no healers. The tank grabs Saurfang(or the horde equivalent?) as fast as he can and moves over to the edge of the enemy boat, so the healers(who are standing on the edge of the friendly boat) can reach him without jumping over. Gearing for avoidance is advisable while doing this achievement, since he only gains a stack of his buff when he lands an attack. Our tanks are horribly overgeared(Mostly 258/264 gear), and healing on them was a breeze. Near the end of the first tank's time over on the enemy ship he was only getting hit for about 16-18K per hit. Remember to tell your raiders to not use their jet pack once they get over to the enemy boat, except to leave. The way the achievement works, if anyone lands on the boat via using the jetpack more than once, EVEN IF THEY WERE JUMPING FROM ONE SPOT ON THE ENEMY BOAT TO ANOTHER, it will ruin the attempt at the achievement. Use your jetpack once to move to the enemy boat, and once to leave -- that's all.


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