WoWzers!

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Chen
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:09 pm UTC

TTS wrote:We did it last week on our first try, AND the first away tank disconnected at the start, lol. The only way to do it is to have people stay over for 2 phases. We sent 1 tank + 2-3 DPS each time, and no healers. The tank grabs Saurfang(or the horde equivalent?) as fast as he can and moves over to the edge of the enemy boat, so the healers(who are standing on the edge of the friendly boat) can reach him without jumping over. Gearing for avoidance is advisable while doing this achievement, since he only gains a stack of his buff when he lands an attack. Our tanks are horribly overgeared(Mostly 258/264 gear), and healing on them was a breeze. Near the end of the first tank's time over on the enemy ship he was only getting hit for about 16-18K per hit. Remember to tell your raiders to not use their jet pack once they get over to the enemy boat, except to leave. The way the achievement works, if anyone lands on the boat via using the jetpack more than once, EVEN IF THEY WERE JUMPING FROM ONE SPOT ON THE ENEMY BOAT TO ANOTHER, it will ruin the attempt at the achievement. Use your jetpack once to move to the enemy boat, and once to leave -- that's all.


I assume you're talking about 10 man here (since you said 2-3 dps per trip). I suspect the damage output of Saurfang on 25 man is going to get a bit rough though I guess if cooldowns get popped near the end it'll probably still be doable (our healers are pretty lazy on this fight, might get em to wake up). I know warriors used to be able to charge over to the other boat without even needing to use the Rocket packs. I kinda doubt its intended but it could easily allow a 2 warrior tank rotation, at least if necessary for cooldowns.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Spacemilk » Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:27 pm UTC

To the person looking for casual players 'round here: I'm one. I got completely and totally burned out on Ulduar hardmodes months ago, and the instant I had my drake I quit the game. I've since resub'd and I'm having fun leveling my 71 mage, but I don't know how long this will last. I'm having to level by myself, which isn't bad but will probably get old fast. I can only play during my friends' raid times so no one really can level with me. Oh well. In any case I am probably going to pick up Star Trek Online next week and give that a try. We'll see.
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mike-l
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:56 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
I assume you're talking about 10 man here (since you said 2-3 dps per trip). I suspect the damage output of Saurfang on 25 man is going to get a bit rough though I guess if cooldowns get popped near the end it'll probably still be doable (our healers are pretty lazy on this fight, might get em to wake up)


We've had tanks have to stay through 2 phases on 25 man pugs before by 'accident'. They are still healable, but towards the end they were almost being 1-shot. But with some cooldowns and better dps than we had on the 2nd mage, should be OK.

We're doing achieves in our 10 as well this week, but probably going to skip rotface, since that seems brutal. Gunship 10 should be easy, LDW looks... interesting. Festergut will be a joke, we already have Marrogar, Saurfang, and Blood Princes, and we'll rotate people each week on BQL, so that'll just leave Putricide which will be the last boss we go after, so we'll try the achieve depending on time.

I downloaded a ton of grid addons last night, it's so much better. Having the HoT timers is great. GridRaidDebuffs does all the work for you, I used to have to manually set each debuff up, it picked up every single one for me. I grabbed GridIndicatorSideIcons and GridRaidIcons as well, and GridDynamicLayout. The only one I didn't like was GridMana because I found it interfered with me 'getting a picture' of what was happening at a glance.
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Chen
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:00 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:We're doing achieves in our 10 as well this week, but probably going to skip rotface, since that seems brutal. Gunship 10 should be easy, LDW looks... interesting. Festergut will be a joke, we already have Marrogar, Saurfang, and Blood Princes, and we'll rotate people each week on BQL, so that'll just leave Putricide which will be the last boss we go after, so we'll try the achieve depending on time.


Everything but the Abomination on Deathwhisper appears to be shackleable making it a fairly trivial achievement I think, at least on 25 man. Rotface definitely seems quite difficult. Since the oozes spawn at the same rate on 10 and 25 man it seems ridiculously difficult on the 10 man one. On the 25 you can at least afford to throw 3 tanks at kiting oozes if need be. Putricide will probably only get done later for us unless we have a ton of attempts left. Not slowing the slimes is going to suck, especially the red one. Blood Queen achievement is probably going to wait a while until the zone wide damage buff is in and such so we can be more discriminating in who we choose to be vampires (and maybe getting a healer/tank every week or so)

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:33 pm UTC

TTS wrote:
ProZac wrote:That and my Grid gets confused by having other druid HoTs about, therefore I get confused.


Get a better grid setup. The one outlined on Treebackjacket a few posts up only shows your hots on the timers -- you can set something up to show if there are other hots, but besides an indicator indicating that there is a swiftmendable hot, there's not a huge reason to do so.

I posted the Treebarkjacket Grid setup... and it's not about the grid setup. It's that those addons don't differentiate between what is and isn't mine (despite that they claim they do).
TTS wrote:
ProZac wrote:Also, I'll give you that Nourish is a very good ability for spam/tank healing... but that's one situation. And if you're raiding with a Paladin you shouldn't even consider needing to be the spam healer. Druids should be the last ones considered for that in fact... maybe Shamans... idk... I don't know much about shaman healing.


It's a very common situation. You honestly seem to be dead set on not utilizing Nourish, which is sad, since it's such a powerful tool. It ultimately comes down to this -- what other glyphs are there that are worth using over Nourish? Swiftmend, Wild Growth, and RR. Any fight that doesn't have GOBS and GOBS of AOE you can usually sacrifice WG for Nourish. I'm much more reluctant to sacrifice RR, since it is the single most powerful glyph we have in terms of single-target HPS increase.

It's not at all common. Of all the situations you've listed, I've been through them all (save the bloodwing which I haven't stepped in yet). In none of those situations does the tank need spam healed. I need to stop and cast 1, in the worst case 2, Nourishes and then all is good again. Hardly worth spec'ing/glyphing into an ability I'll use a minimal amount of times per fight, over one I'd use every 6 seconds. It's not like I never cast this spell, it is on my mouse binds. It's just very rare, and when I do need to use it, I'm going to pop Nature's Swiftness + Healing Touch first.

Hey, I know, I'll even one up you. Last week, Rotface, our priest and paladin both got the Mutating Injection after an explosion, and they went to opposite sides of the room, leaving me in the middle healing all alone for quite some time. Yes, I spammed Nourish, but the tank lived. I didn't need the spec/glyph to save him. I can't imagine one time where I've ever thought "If only I'd have cast Nourish!" In fact, since Ulduar, there has never been a fight we've been stuck on because "The healers aren't keeping people alive."

I also loved the Saurfang example, since our paladin does the RF thing anyway, along with both of us taunting the beasts back and forth (we do 2 heal this fight). That's both healers distracted and still no dead tanks. Saurfang hits like a kitty.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby TTS » Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:36 pm UTC

Regarding the Grid setup, you have to enable "Buff: My Rejuvenation", "Buff: My Regrowth", etc.. not Buff: Rejuvenation, Buff: Regrowth. The former set will show only yours, and is enabled be one of the addons on the website you mentioned -- the latter will show any regrowth/rejuv/etc, including yours.

Regarding nourish, I'm not going to continue trying to convince you since that's clearly futile, you're set in your ways -- when heroic ICC encounters become available, perhaps you'll see the value of more tank healing capability, though. ToGC10 isn't anywhere as near as hard now as it used to be, back when we were going at it with primarily 219/226 gear. On the same general train of thought, ICC heroic modes are going to be a huge step up in difficulty.

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Kag
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Kag » Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:42 pm UTC

All this discussion has made me want to try out healing, so I rolled up a druid. Anything I should know going into this?
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ProZac
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:56 pm UTC

TTS wrote:Regarding the Grid setup, you have to enable "Buff: My Rejuvenation", "Buff: My Regrowth", etc.. not Buff: Rejuvenation, Buff: Regrowth. The former set will show only yours, and is enabled be one of the addons on the website you mentioned -- the latter will show any regrowth/rejuv/etc, including yours.

Regarding nourish, I'm not going to continue trying to convince you since that's clearly futile, you're set in your ways -- when heroic ICC encounters become available, perhaps you'll see the value of more tank healing capability, though. ToGC10 isn't anywhere as near as hard now as it used to be, back when we were going at it with primarily 219/226 gear. On the same general train of thought, ICC heroic modes are going to be a huge step up in difficulty.


I do have the My Rejuv, My Regrowth, etc enabled, it still picks up others. It's quite annoying, and if you know anything of what would cause this, I'm open to suggestions. Maybe I just need to update. And I don't see why you're so convinced I need to change, which what I have going works for me. Rolling HoTs is how I've always healed, and it's how the other healers in my guild expect me to do things. We've got a nice synergy going between the 3 of us, and if one of us steps out for the week, it's noticeable that that synergy is missing. The prime issue in progress with our guild is two things: time and dps. Our time has been limited as of late, and we're working to change this, and the difference between our "A team" (those that have been raiding since naxx, essentially) and "rest of the raiders" is huge. 2 nights wasted on attempts on Rotface and Festergut. Next week, A team walks in and 2 shots Rotface, 1 shot Festergut. Last night, we had a bunch of our subpar dps in for Prof P attempts. The dps variations were absurd, from one attempt getting him to 5% before slime caught up to us, to another where he enraged exactly at 35%. Luckily, it looks like we're going to have most of the A team around this week, so I expect to clear out/clean up all content. I also fear for ICC heroics with our current raiding team/status... it'll never happen.
Kag wrote:All this discussion has made me want to try out healing, so I rolled up a druid. Anything I should know going into this?

Reroll something other than druid, there's too many :o . As you can see from our discussions, there's a lot of options available for a resto druid. Level as what you like, you have virtually every option available (melee, ranged, tank, heal). I would recommend doing feral tanking with the new LFD tool. That way you can tank instances and queue fast, and you can switch to kitty dps relatively easily if you're solo'ing.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby TTS » Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:59 pm UTC

Level feral. Dear god, level feral.

Btw, I'm sorry if I come off as a little condescending or whatever, I don't mean to, it's just sorta how I am >_> I'm just arguing for my stance on it because I enjoy debating things, really :P I don't talk tree with that many people, so I tend to get really into it when I do :)

What's your usual raid comp, if you have one? With the A team, I guess. The reason I'm so against the WG glyph, especially in 10 mans, is the fact that usually you don't have more than 5 melee or 5 ranged, and even if you do, a lot of times all 6 of them will either not be in range of WG, or will not be damaged enough to truly need it.

Part of why I'm so adamant towards using the Nourish glyph/talent undoubtedly comes from my 25 man raiding, too -- until we severely outgeared it, Heroic 25 man Gormok The Impaler could bring one of our tanks from Full to Dead in <1 second. We've gotten it to the point where we virtually never wipe on it anymore, but that's due to a mixture of our tanks getting better gear, and us recruiting a second holy paladin. Back in the day, Gormok on 10 man TOGC pre-nerf could manhandle a tank just as hard as he still can on 25 today. The only real defense against tanks getting gibbed by super-hard-hitting bosses is spamming as much healing onto them as you can with your free GCDs. Blizzard has said they're trying to move away from the whole "Avoidance is so high than we have to make it so tanks can get 2 shotted" thing, but I fully expect Saurfang and Marrowgar, among others, to be a complete pain on heroic mode.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:55 pm UTC

We got our Deathwshiper, Gunship and Festergut achievements yesterday. Festergut was a joke to do. Gunship was not really that difficult either. Staying over for 2 mages had Saurfang hitting me for about 25-30k at the end, but he swings fairly slowly and at that point I could safely pop all my cooldowns. We killed it in 4 mages though if we had sent some more dps over in the 2 groups we had made we would have easily done it in 3 (since right after the last mage died so did the enemy ship).

Deathwhisper was a PAIN in the ass to do. I mis-interpreted some things and you can only shackle the risen targets (I had thought they were all undead). We had two annoying wipes because right as we pushed her over one of the non-transformed adds we were holding transformed making us not have the right adds up anymore. We ended up doing it in such a way as to push her to ~5% shield and then wait until we had both types of undead adds shackled and an abom being kited. On the next add spawn we pushed her over immediately, pulled a caster and melee add to the back and then killed the rest of the adds and then her.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:19 pm UTC

TTS wrote:Part of why I'm so adamant towards using the Nourish glyph/talent undoubtedly comes from my 25 man raiding, too -- until we severely outgeared it, Heroic 25 man Gormok The Impaler could bring one of our tanks from Full to Dead in <1 second. We've gotten it to the point where we virtually never wipe on it anymore, but that's due to a mixture of our tanks getting better gear, and us recruiting a second holy paladin. Back in the day, Gormok on 10 man TOGC pre-nerf could manhandle a tank just as hard as he still can on 25 today. The only real defense against tanks getting gibbed by super-hard-hitting bosses is spamming as much healing onto them as you can with your free GCDs. Blizzard has said they're trying to move away from the whole "Avoidance is so high than we have to make it so tanks can get 2 shotted" thing, but I fully expect Saurfang and Marrowgar, among others, to be a complete pain on heroic mode.

Gormok is honestly the reason I fear for ICC. We had a 'new' tank at this point and time, and spent probably 2 nights on him before we found out our warrior tank was popping literally every CD at once, and having nothing for the second round of tanking him. And yes, there were time when he would go from full health to dead in >.5 second, but timing on that would have had to have been absurd with all three healers spamming in order to handle it. Most of our guild just got sick of it and we didn't go back for a long time.

Our A team: Tanks don't really matter (we have a warrior, pally, and DK). Last night we had the Warr and DK. Healers are always me, priest, paladin. Our dps just happens to be our "top dps'ers". Marks Hunter, 2 mages, a DK and a dps Warrior. Any of those could really be switched out for our warlock and we'd be just as well off. We've 3 other dps raiders (a boomkin, a mage, and a hunter) that don't quite pull their weight as well.

Raided for about 2 hours last night and cleared up to Putricide. No wipes, save on Rotface, and that was mostly due to the DK tank learning to kite the slimes for the first time. Going back in on Thursday, and I expect Putricide to go down in the first few attempts.

I picked up a new addon last night as well, one I saw our mage used in his videos, which we affectionately referred to as "DDR for WoW". It's a little bar that displays the icons of your CD's and they slowly go from right to left, speeding up as it nears 0. It's called ForteXorcist, and is designed for Warlocks but can be used for anyone. The main feature is a cooldown timer, which is really only useful for my druid for swiftmend and trinket. I'm already trained on clicing WG every 6 seconds. It's also a little nice for innervate and rebirth. I expect it to be very useful for my shadow priest though.

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Kag
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Kag » Thu Jan 28, 2010 7:40 am UTC

Druid has been fun so far. I'm just about to start leveling in instances, and I've got both of the xp-boosting piece of heirloom gear.

In other news, after a night of perfect loot, my guild wiped on Rotface for the nth time. It's frustrating, but I think the rhythm of all the mechanics of the fight hasn't totally "clicked" for some of the players, so we get errors here and there and then it turns into a massive shitstorm. We'll get it eventually, I suppose, but are there any tips you folks can share?
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby TTS » Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:27 pm UTC

I don't fully understand Rotface from a tanking perspective(ie why the Rotface tank has to constantly shift position), but we use a paladin tank to kite the slimes around the edge of the room since he has nothing better to do on that fight. What exactly seems to be the problem?

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:34 pm UTC

Kag wrote:In other news, after a night of perfect loot, my guild wiped on Rotface for the nth time. It's frustrating, but I think the rhythm of all the mechanics of the fight hasn't totally "clicked" for some of the players, so we get errors here and there and then it turns into a massive shitstorm. We'll get it eventually, I suppose, but are there any tips you folks can share?


Tank him in the middle, everyone stay on his ass. If your healers are good don't have ranged move for the slime spray. If your healers are bad, have everyone (but the person targetted) move for the slime spray. Cleanse the infection when the players is near the already existing slime so they merge instantly. This is easily done if you have a paladin kiting the slime. Also the outside of the room slime isn't THAT dangerous for a tank. Its generally worthwhile running through it if you have enough room from the slime, rather than cutting in towards the raid when kiting. Don't run away from the middle until you see the slime's cast bar finish (or just watch for the actual explosion animation). Pan your camera up and don't run back until there are NO things falling from the sky. Repeat until dead. That last part is really the key. Even though the infection starts coming faster at the end, if you continue with the same thing you've been doing before, nothing gets out of control. Its when people start panicking that there are problems.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby TTS » Thu Jan 28, 2010 4:58 pm UTC

Ah, that sorta clarifies it -- He turns himself and spits, the raid just moved with him. I wasn't quite sure on the mechanic that made him move, been so busy with school lately that I hadn't had time to fully learn the non-essential mechanics for my role.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Thu Jan 28, 2010 7:37 pm UTC

So the Str rings become available next week, but they appear to be about 40 points under budget! The Str vs Agi switch will probably make it worthwhile for DKs, since Str is so overvalued for them, but for warriors and rets, it will not be an upgrade. So I'm looking forward to seeing all the bad dps wearing the wrong ring around next week (unless it gets fixed).

On the topic, I'm glad about a few of the changes coming to gearing in Cataclysm. Namely, AP and SP are stupid and redundant (moreso SP, which just comes with Int in the same ratio on every piece in the game). I'm not in favor of 'dumbing down' the game (nor am I necessarily against it, though if you pressed me on it I probably would be), but I'm totally in favor of removing needless complication. I feel like expertise and hit could probably be combined as well, and I'd rather see them do that and keep ArPen (which IMO is the coolest stat in game). I'd also love to see SpellPen become relevant, but I'm not likely going to get those last two.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Thu Jan 28, 2010 7:51 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:So the Str rings become available next week, but they appear to be about 40 points under budget! The Str vs Agi switch will probably make it worthwhile for DKs, since Str is so overvalued for them, but for warriors and rets, it will not be an upgrade. So I'm looking forward to seeing all the bad dps wearing the wrong ring around next week (unless it gets fixed).

On the topic, I'm glad about a few of the changes coming to gearing in Cataclysm. Namely, AP and SP are stupid and redundant (moreso SP, which just comes with Int in the same ratio on every piece in the game). I'm not in favor of 'dumbing down' the game (nor am I necessarily against it, though if you pressed me on it I probably would be), but I'm totally in favor of removing needless complication. I feel like expertise and hit could probably be combined as well, and I'd rather see them do that and keep ArPen (which IMO is the coolest stat in game). I'd also love to see SpellPen become relevant, but I'm not likely going to get those last two.


I can't check the rings here, but isnt the Str and Sta higher than the Agi and Sta on the other rings? A lot of Str based items end up this way. Look at Cryptmaker (or whatever that mace/polearm is called) compared to Distant Land. It has less DPS stats but its primary stats (Str and Sta) are higher than those on Distant land.

Making Agi worth 2 AP for Agi users (like Str is for strength users) seems a tad unfair. Agi provides crit/dodge/armor in addition to AP now, whereas Str only provides AP. I suspect they'll need to "buff" strength otherwise Agi wearers are going to get more bang for their buck out of the stats on their gear. This is already the case, as seen in the ring example above. Agi users get Agi AND AP on the items whereas Str users just get strength. Since stacking a single stat higher is less effective in item budgeting the agi users get "more" stats on an equivalent ilvl item.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Thu Jan 28, 2010 7:59 pm UTC

Chen wrote:I can't check the rings here, but isnt the Str and Sta higher than the Agi and Sta on the other rings? A lot of Str based items end up this way. Look at Cryptmaker (or whatever that mace/polearm is called) compared to Distant Land. It has less DPS stats but its primary stats (Str and Sta) are higher than those on Distant land.


Yes, it is slightly higher, but the comparison comes down to 91 Str and 21 stam vs 80 Agi and 114 AP. You can work out what's better, but my numbers give the Str ring better for Unholy DKs (don't know stat values for blood or frost dks) and the Agi better for Fury/Arms and Ret.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:22 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:Yes, it is slightly higher, but the comparison comes down to 91 Str and 21 stam vs 80 Agi and 114 AP. You can work out what's better, but my numbers give the Str ring better for Unholy DKs (don't know stat values for blood or frost dks) and the Agi better for Fury/Arms and Ret.


I'm not contending it may in fact be better. I just think the budget is correct.

Assuming all other stats are equal we have 32 "points" on the Str ring vs. 57 points (0.5*114) on the Agi ring. Since the 32 points are stacked on stats that are already present we lose some value of them which means the ballpark number looks right. I guess it really depends on how good agi is for other classes that don't get AP from it. Trading 86 AP (before multipliers the class has) for 88 Agi doesn't seem that great for a Str class but perhaps I'm undervaluing Agi's worth to some of them.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:37 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
I'm not contending it may in fact be better. I just think the budget is correct.

Assuming all other stats are equal we have 32 "points" on the Str ring vs. 57 points (0.5*114) on the Agi ring. Since the 32 points are stacked on stats that are already present we lose some value of them which means the ballpark number looks right. I guess it really depends on how good agi is for other classes that don't get AP from it. Trading 86 AP (before multipliers the class has) for 88 Agi doesn't seem that great for a Str class but perhaps I'm undervaluing Agi's worth to some of them.


You may be right. Looking at friendly rings, using WoWWiki's clearly outdated ilvl calculations (since the ilvl it gives is not 251), I get that the Str ring is undervalued, but only by about 3 points on Str.

In any case, any ret or warrior who is using that ring is gonna get a chuckle out of me :)
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Kag
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Kag » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:32 pm UTC

Chen wrote: Its when people start panicking that there are problems.


This is really the issue. Someone screws up and dies somehow, an ooze gets loose, people lose their cool, and the off tank ends up eating a swing to the big ooze trying to save us.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:36 am UTC

So I found a new way to wipe a raid tonight, I call it the tree bomb. On blood princes, we have our spriest tank kal on the left side of the room while the other two bosses are tanked on the right, and everyone stays well clear of the left unless kal is empowered. This means he gets a dedicated healer, which in this case, is me, the tree. Of course, when Tal is empowered, we get a lot of fire orbs coming our way, no big deal though, as everyone is pretty good at running them down before they get to us. So it's been a rocky night. We've had people run to the orb not realizing it's pursuing them, we had the kinetic bomb drop, we had the tank get gibbed a couple times. So finally things are looking good, everything is under control, Tal gets empowered.. and I don't notice a Shock Vortex spawning under me. Right as the orb CD comes up I get flung directly into the raid, right onto Tal and get targeted by the orb mid-air, nuking everyone before I even land!

We downed them the next attempt and other than that it was a pretty good night (except for a MESSY rotface kill, but then, 3/4 of our rotface kills have been messy). We snagged another tribute to insanity after as well, alas still no haste/spirit cloak. I'm very happy with my gear, it's almost all 251 or 264, except my 213 cloak.. a stain upon my paper doll!

7 more days til I get 4pc T10, w00t!
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:05 pm UTC

I had the least amout of fun possible playing WoW last night. I'm fricking sick of Professor Putricide. Even with our best dps in there, the dps requirement to successfully down phase 3 is absurd. We did about 7 attempts, and on 3 of them got him to 1%. We can get him to phase 3 consistently (barring no bullshit, like one person that got latched+slimed+maleable goo'd). At least 2 of our dps'ers I've seen out dps people in 25 man gear, and the rest aren't doing bad at all. This fight just seems like it's impossible for anyone not wearing any gear out of ICC25 (which not a soul in the guild has gotten gear from, if they've even been). IhatehimIhatehimIhatehimIhatehimIhatehim.

mike-l wrote:7 more days til I get 4pc T10, w00t!

Druid resto T10 is bad, mmmk? Actually, I'm not completely sure, but I swear on EJ they had said the 4-set actually causes the Rejuv to 'jump' to a new target, and leave the original. You don't exactly want your HoTs leaving the tank. Also, if you look at the numbers of it all, there's a 2% chance it'll jump. Fairly low chance. Then you have to consider the likelyhood it jumps somewhere it could be useful, at a time when it would be useful. I could be completely wrong about it, but it seems wasteful to me. Of course, if you can get the T10.5 it might change things. All the T10 I have access to is ilvl 251, where I can buy ilvl 264 from Frost.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby TTS » Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:41 pm UTC

ProZac wrote:Druid resto T10 is bad, mmmk? Actually, I'm not completely sure, but I swear on EJ they had said the 4-set actually causes the Rejuv to 'jump' to a new target, and leave the original.


A blue poster clarified that that is not the case about a month ago. On the PTR back before 3.3, people tested it and reported that it did jump -- that was either a lie from whoever did test it, unintentionally incorrect, or a bug that was fixed between the PTR testing and now. A few people on ElitistJerks have gotten their 4t10, and the results look VERY promising on AOE intensive fights. It clones a new HoT, the original stays on the first target. It'll only jump to a target without one of your rejuvs ticking, and I'm fairly sure it jumps to the lowest HP target within range(which is 30 or 40 yards -- not sure if that's from the caster or the person being healed, although I'm guessing person being healed). All in all, it looks to work about as optimally as we could hope.

On an AOE intensive fight like Festergut, a WoL combat log parse that someone on EJ posted while using it showed the bonus as something like 17% of his healing done (25 man). I'd have loved a bonus that affected something other than rejuv, but alas, that seems to be something we won't see until Cataclysm.

Also yeah, ICC is hard, both 10 and 25. My guild has cleared everything on 10 man thus far, we've actually had two groups kill Putri. We're in a mixture of TOGC25(258), ICC10(251), and ICC25(264) gear, though, so we've got an advantage. We just downed Putricide for the first time last night on 25, and actually had about a half dozen attempts left for BQL... those didn't go so well :\

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:01 pm UTC

Awesome. I don't go to EJ all to frequently, but yeah, even so, it'll be a toss up between have extra 264 gear with better stats and going for my 4set T10. I'll have to look at it a bit more.

Being a '10 man only' guild adds some issues that the larger guilds don't have. First, we don't get upgrades as fast. 25 man guilds get almost double Frost Emblems, and double loot in a week. While this all equalizes out across 25 man, it gives them an advantage going into 10, as you have had more opportunities for better gear. If it's a difficult fight in 25man gear... imagine the time we're having. It also sucks because we can't compare experiences to other exclusively 10 man guilds since there aren't really many of them. Eh, idk... maybe I just got my hopes up last night going in with our best and brick walling. First time that team has ever had trouble downing a boss once we had the mechanics down. 1%! If only we had a frickin' Shaman with bloodlust. Give it to another class/make an item for it (ala Kings/Fort) already!

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:06 pm UTC

Ay, 2% chance to jump, per tick. It's effectively 12% extra raw healing done on your Rejuv. The fact that it's 'smart' makes it even better!' (If those jumps can jump then it's even better.. not sure on this one.. will be testing next week when I get my bonus)

If DPS can't down Putricide in P3 and they aren't screwing up, then you need more DPS! Run 2 heals. (Though you may have to nourish more often :P). We have some 25 gear, but I don't think anybody has more than 1-2 pieces, and we have a couple of still very undergeared players. (If you think my 213 back is bad, our DK has a 200 back and not a small number of pieces below 226). Last night's Putricide was close... we downed him when the 2nd tank was about 5 seconds away from his 5th stack, but there were a lot of people being bad, and we were missing our top DPS due to vacation.

Hrm, no bloodlust, that does suck! We have a terrible shaman, but we won't drop him because he brings Hero and Wrath of Air!

Why not Pug a weekly 25? That's what most of us do (since we've been banished from the guild 25, long story), we've gotten at least 3 bosses down each week, with Saurfang most weeks, and had a wipe factory on Blood Princes last week. Festergut/Rotface is not going to happen, but I could see Blood Princes definitely.

Also, if you are clearing all content, 25 man guilds currently get less than 50% more badges than 10 man guilds, since the badges outside of raids are 19 per week, and each incarnation of the raid is max 18 per week.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:44 pm UTC

Which is why I said about double. Double from raid... though I guess 7 randeroics adds up over the week. But yes, it's completely a dps issue, and as I said *1% Three times!* Jesus, a few 264 pieces would make that difference. I already suggested to the other officers we 2 heal it. Our dps is great on the first 2 phases (we push him to 80% as the second slime spawns), and the slimes also go down fast. They think I'm crazy, but it's worth a shot. I also realized we had a DK tank and a DK dps... neither used Army on phase three iirc. I bet that would make the difference too. And trust me, Nourish gets spammed plenty during Professor.

As far as a 25 man pug... I'm always jonesing for 25 man gear (bigger numbers!) but if someone in guild is going to run it it'd have to be me. The other officers hate dealing with other people, as they're generally friggin idiots. We don't have a very positive server when it comes to competent pugs. Plus, it just adds more WoW time, which means less time for other games I have to play. Also, I'm not comfortable running raids unless I fully understand each boss, so when I join other 25 pugs (which I've done 2, one to Saurfang, and one only Marrowgar -_-) I watch and learn. I don't really have a good grasp on it all yet, namely Deathewhisper. She scares me the most for a 25 man group.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Fri Jan 29, 2010 5:28 pm UTC

Strictly 10 man guilds are going to find things extremely difficult with no heroism. I'd go so far as to say some of the heroic modes will probably not be doable with heroism for a strict 10 man guild. Any argument that its "not that big a deal" is completely wrong. Not only does it provide a fairly good damage increase over the length of the fight, more importantly, it provide a HUGE burst dps which is key to many fights.

Also, its only the 4th week Putricide has been out. Considering limited attempts I don't think people should necessarily EXPECT to have him down at this point. ToC normal mode was a complete joke and skewed people's perceptions. Remember how hard Mimiron was when he first came out? Or Yogg? Even those aren't perfectly indicative for 10 man because almost EVERYONE had some 25 man loot when Ulduar came out since Naxx and Sarth were ridiculously easy to pug. Doing Mimiron when he was first released in strict 10 man gear would have been extremely hard. Same with Yogg.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:34 pm UTC

Iirc, we got Mimiron the 3rd week he was out, after only one week where we had trouble. Yogg was a cake walk after Mimiron. I know by going with "night of attempts" Yogg, Hodir, and Mimiron were all 3. Yogg I blame fully on our old DK tank, who was fricking FAIL at dodging clouds. He swore insistently that they closed in on people rather than following a set pattern. We're on night 4 of Professor. Yeah, we probably were spoiled by ToC's easiness, but this is still harder than any other fight we've encountered. And we're at the same point where most of the guild is at least decked at in ToC25 because ToC was ridiculously easy to pug.

Blizzard seemed to want to have 2 types of progression in this expansion: 10 man progression, and 25 man progression. Instead, it's mostly 25 man progression with a 10 man bonus raid for those guilds. This feels a little broken to me. Granted I don't know how it was in BC, so maybe I'm mistaken. I would kinda like the idea of having a 'single lockout' and you get to choose 10 or 25 just based on preference. Drop the same loot so one isn't neccessarily more desirable than the other, just drop more for 25. Granted this would probably lead to "balance" issues, and Blizzard sucks with that. I would also like to know what happened to the gear upgrades in 25 man not being such a large difference? Naxx: 213 - 219, Uld: 219 - 226, ToC: 232 - 245? ICC: 251 - 264? Those last 2 are quite the jump.

And maybe I missed it, but did anyone say BL "wasn't that big of a deal"? I mean... our guild had a shaman for the course of ToC, and that's it. We've done every other raid without it, and we'll joke "Bloodlust is a crutch", but really, it's only because we don't have it. XT's Hardmode? Yeah, we pushed that bitch without Bloodlust in only Ulduar gear. Our guild's version of Bloodlust? 10xPotions of Speed. Ho yeah... -_- ... I wish we had a friggin shaman.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:09 pm UTC

ProZac wrote:Blizzard seemed to want to have 2 types of progression in this expansion: 10 man progression, and 25 man progression. Instead, it's mostly 25 man progression with a 10 man bonus raid for those guilds. This feels a little broken to me. Granted I don't know how it was in BC, so maybe I'm mistaken. I would kinda like the idea of having a 'single lockout' and you get to choose 10 or 25 just based on preference. Drop the same loot so one isn't neccessarily more desirable than the other, just drop more for 25. Granted this would probably lead to "balance" issues, and Blizzard sucks with that. I would also like to know what happened to the gear upgrades in 25 man not being such a large difference? Naxx: 213 - 219, Uld: 219 - 226, ToC: 232 - 245? ICC: 251 - 264? Those last 2 are quite the jump.


Naxx is: 200 for 10 man, 213 for 25 man and 10 man kelthuzad, Malygos and Sartharion hard mode and 226 from Kelthuzad, Malygos and Sartharian hard mode
Ulduar is: 219 for 10 man, 226 for 25 man and 10 man hard mode and 239 for 25 man hard mode
ToC is: 232 for 10 man, 245 for 25 man and 10 man hard mode and 258 for 25 man hard mode (and 258/272 for the Insanity cloaks, but thats not really relevant here)
ICC is 251 for 10 man, 264 for 25 man and 10 man hard mode and 277 for 25 man hard mode

At each level the 25 man stuff is 13 ilvls higher than the same thing on 10 man. The jumps between levels themselves are a bit messed up. Instead of everything being just 13 ilvls higher than it was on the previous tier there is a 6 ilvl extra increase. The reason for this "half tier" increase was so that people would have incentive to farm the new instance rather than go back and be "forced" to do the hard modes of the last instance. It got slightly messed up at the Naxx->Ulduar level where 25 man was the same ilvl as the previous tier and there was only a 7 ilvl difference between 10 and 25 man. 25 man gear here should have been ilvl 232 to keep the pattern constant. Gear upgrades from 10 to 25 man were always supposed to be 1 tier difference (which is 13 ilvls).

And maybe I missed it, but did anyone say BL "wasn't that big of a deal"? I mean... our guild had a shaman for the course of ToC, and that's it. We've done every other raid without it, and we'll joke "Bloodlust is a crutch", but really, it's only because we don't have it. XT's Hardmode? Yeah, we pushed that bitch without Bloodlust in only Ulduar gear. Our guild's version of Bloodlust? 10xPotions of Speed. Ho yeah... -_- ... I wish we had a friggin shaman.


Blizzard has said its not "necessary" and hence the lack of equivalent drums for it (like they did with Kings, Mark and Fort). I contend that they are wrong and pretty much most people realize that. And while its not strictly necessary the difference between having it and not is gigantic. There will be heroic level fights in ICC that will not be doable when they first come out if you don't have heroism (and will be doable once you get more gear). Sindragosa and Arthas on normal could be like that for all I know.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:16 pm UTC

I heard arthas is gonna be surrounded by 6 guards and you have to dps down each guard while dealing with some add spawns. Once the guards are dead, arthas will become active and go to attack Akama Bolvar, and you have 60 seconds to burn him.. sounds hard! o wait...
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Midnight » Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:44 am UTC

well in 10-man raids, the encounters are not designed for many raidwide buffs. i think ulduar was designed for that mana-per-second one, but i dunno if toc or icc was.

however, in 25s, it's expected that there is representation from all 10 classes, and as such all the dps race encounters were all designed with "okay, for 40 seconds of this fight that raid is gonna put out some nutty damage"
uhhhh fuck.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:06 am UTC

Midnight wrote:well in 10-man raids, the encounters are not designed for many raidwide buffs. i think ulduar was designed for that mana-per-second one, but i dunno if toc or icc was.

however, in 25s, it's expected that there is representation from all 10 classes, and as such all the dps race encounters were all designed with "okay, for 40 seconds of this fight that raid is gonna put out some nutty damage"


Yes, they've said that all raids are balanced around having some form of replenishment, since you can get it from any dps priest or pally, and certain specs of mages, hunters and locks.

Blizz says Bloodlust is not necessary... It makes a huge difference for caster heavy groups, but then, melee heavy groups tend to do more damage overall. A caster heavy group with a shaman is pretty gimped even without counting heroism. I know I'd hate to run without one though, so if they want to say it's not necessary, that's fine, I'm still gonna try my best to bring it.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Lucrece » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:12 pm UTC

Just cancelled. After a month of coming back from BC.

The game is just shitty to me now. The community has evolved into what would be the worst MMO community I've seen. It's a GearScore pretentious snobbery, a bunch of awful people who can't even play the game anymore because they've made everything so easy.

I come from the times of Vanilla. Ever since the game was released. I level and alt and notice how the Vanilla 5mans have more essence and life than some crappy wotlk 5mans that just stand as a linear killing of simple trash and bosses to grind out badges.

Raids are not much different. The boss fights are stupid. They don't even approach what Naxx,BWL, AQ, BT, SSC, and Sunwell provided. These new raids are drab.

PvP is even worse. There's nothing remotely flavorful about it. It's just "find a way to kill your enemy". Which pretty much is a whole mess of class viability; some specs suck really bad, others are stupidly good. They dumbed down AV to where you can ignore armor scraps, where you don't even summon the ancients anymore. Warsong Gulch is some pathetic "Get a flag and get on the motorcycle" kind of game.

There's just nothing epic about the game anymore. There's no immersion, or lore, just little side bits and text that fall secondary to "grind out x token for y reward mindlessly".
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Dobblesworth » Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:28 am UTC

Lucrece wrote:Warsong Gulch is some pathetic "Get a flag and get on the motorcycle" kind of game.

Gotta agree with you there. Was playing it a week back and saw some skullduggery going down with I think a warrior & paladin (perhaps two-manning from the same server), who, with one grabbing the flag, had the second pull out his motorcycle mount, the first hops in the sidecar, then after the few second cooldown is allowed to pick the flag up again, and have the banner flying high above the vehicle as it careered north to the Silverwing base. I just couldn't stop laughing, and while I wouldn't say WoW as a whole has jumped the shark (it has its fail points that I'm waiting on Cataclysm to be resolved and a new direction given to the game), I evaluated that there are some truly gaping crevasses in the glacier of balance.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby FoS » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:41 am UTC

Lucrece wrote:Lots of Stuff about how WoW sucks


I wouldn't be quite so fast to label the newer Raids as being no comparison to the old raids.

People keep losing sight of the fact that the Raiding model has changed.

Normal modes are so that the semi-skilled people can see most of the content in the game. Hard modes are for the Hardcore Raiders and believe me. Hard-modes in ToC and ICC are tough. Guilds are already struggling with some of the fights in normal mode ICC.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Ixtellor » Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:03 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:The community has evolved into what would be the worst MMO community I've seen. It's a GearScore pretentious snobbery, a bunch of awful people who can't even play the game anymore because they've made everything so easy.


Have to agree with that part. Although I find most players with good gear are good players.
I also disagree to a point. I tried to PUG Malaygos and some of the players are totally clueless. I have never done it before, but a quick read and I knew what to do. Our group was so pathetic we had to 3 heal it, and the 3rd healer was god awful. After our tank died in Phase 2, as a Ret pally trying to keep us in it, I outhealed a shammer healer.
After 6 wipes, I left the group in disgust and logged off. (made it to phase 3 3 times and the healers never figured out what to do)

What I also don't currently like are all the people running around in greens and blues who join Heroics and expect 4 strangers to carry them.

I am currently burned out. I have done every heroic more times than I can stand, and have maxxed my charater out with what is feasible. I find leveling AGAIN, mind numbing. So I suppose I will be looking to see if Star Trek is any good.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:18 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:Yes, they've said that all raids are balanced around having some form of replenishment, since you can get it from any dps priest or pally, and certain specs of mages, hunters and locks.

Blizz says Bloodlust is not necessary... It makes a huge difference for caster heavy groups, but then, melee heavy groups tend to do more damage overall. A caster heavy group with a shaman is pretty gimped even without counting heroism. I know I'd hate to run without one though, so if they want to say it's not necessary, that's fine, I'm still gonna try my best to bring it.

As I've said, our guild has 9 dps'ers, only 2 of which are melee (a warrior and a DK). Nights where we have no melee dps come around fairly frequently. More fun comes from the fact that none of our dps run with replenishment. Mages have to be in frost I believe (all of ours are arcane) and I don't know about the hunters, but our main one that is always along doesn't have it. Same for the warlock, don't know which spec, but he ain't got it. Every now and then on a mana intensive fight one might spec into it, but not often. It'd be nice to have around, as with it I think I hit the point of virtually infinite mana, or I can cast as fast as possible and not lose any/much at all.

Not sure with your assessment of melee heavy does more damage than ranged. We've a fairly good mix, with our Hunter and Mage definite top dps, then the melee and ranged fight out for who does better.
Lucrece wrote:I level and alt and notice how the Vanilla 5mans have more essence and life than some crappy wotlk 5mans that just stand as a linear killing of simple trash and bosses to grind out badges.

I consider this a good thing. Trash is not fun. Bosses are fun. Vanilla instance trash to boss ratio is much worse than WotLK. I don't care what's in the instance, only what I get out of it for my time invested. This is why I think CoS is the worst instance in the game and AN quite possibly the best. In the time it takes for CoS to start, you can clear AN.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:26 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:I level and alt and notice how the Vanilla 5mans have more essence and life than some crappy wotlk 5mans that just stand as a linear killing of simple trash and bosses to grind out badges.

I consider this a good thing. Trash is not fun. Bosses are fun. Vanilla instance trash to boss ratio is much worse than WotLK. I don't care what's in the instance, only what I get out of it for my time invested. This is why I think CoS is the worst instance in the game and AN quite possibly the best. In the time it takes for CoS to start, you can clear AN.[/quote]
Lucrece wrote:Raids are not much different. The boss fights are stupid. They don't even approach what Naxx,BWL, AQ, BT, SSC, and Sunwell provided. These new raids are drab.


As was stated the regular modes are fairly easy so that people can at least see the content. It was really only ToC and the first 4 in Icecrown on regular that are stupidly easy. The regular modes in Ulduar (when it was released) was fairly challenging. Plagueworks and Halls of Blood on normal mode are also fairly challenging in ICC. As to variety of boss fights I fail to see how old raids were so much better. Ulduar has a ton of variety in the fights even not including hard modes. ToC only has 5 bosses yet all 5 are fairly unique. I mean why do people consider Kiljaeden or M'uru such great fights compared to say Mimiron or Yogg? I mean Festergut and Brutallus are essentially the same boss except their mechanic to do damage to the raid is slightly different. Of course instances are going to have the couple of boring/non-interesting bosses but I don't really see that being any different now than it was back then. I'd wager most fights now are in fact more complex and intricate than they were in the past. Sure if I compare the best of BC (say something like Kalecgos) to the worst of wrath (like say Auriya, Marrowgar or Hodir) sure its going to look skewed. But I mean if I do the opposite and compare something like Firefighter to Rage Winterchill, it makes the same point but in reverse.

ProZac wrote:Not sure with your assessment of melee heavy does more damage than ranged. We've a fairly good mix, with our Hunter and Mage definite top dps, then the melee and ranged fight out for who does better.


It really depends on the fight. However, given a stationary boss where you can just go all out dps (Saurfang if ranged isn't attacking adds), the overall meters have melee as a bit over most ranged. Sure you'll have variations. I mean our top warlock generally does more damage than some of our melee, but its because he's an exceptional player and some of the melee are not. Skill being equal, you take the best melee vs the best ranged on a target and you'll see that the melee is ahead.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:03 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:I am currently burned out. I have done every heroic more times than I can stand, and have maxxed my charater out with what is feasible. I find leveling AGAIN, mind numbing. So I suppose I will be looking to see if Star Trek is any good.


Congratulations, you've 'beaten' then single player version of the game. Now you can move on to other better games.

ProZac wrote:Not sure with your assessment of melee heavy does more damage than ranged. We've a fairly good mix, with our Hunter and Mage definite top dps, then the melee and ranged fight out for who does better.


I think it's more along the lines of groups stacked for melee dps outdps groups stacked for ranged dps. Of course, it can change a lot as people gear up, but that's how it was at least in 3.2. Rogues tricksing each other produces some scary results.


ProZac wrote:I consider this a good thing. Trash is not fun. Bosses are fun. Vanilla instance trash to boss ratio is much worse than WotLK. I don't care what's in the instance, only what I get out of it for my time invested. This is why I think CoS is the worst instance in the game and AN quite possibly the best. In the time it takes for CoS to start, you can clear AN.


I'd rather trash be interesting in general. ICC has more interesting trash than Naxx or nerfed Ulduar, Ulduar pre-nerf was pretty interesting as well.

As for heroics, yeah, CoS is a pile of garbage. It's 8 minutes before you can start fighting. I have cleared the following instances in 8 minutes: AN, OK, DTK, GD, Nexus, Oculus, UK, HoL, HoS, FoS. That's everything but VH, UP, ToC, PoS, HoR - only 2 old heroics! Even if you started CoS at that 8 minute mark, it's still a 15 minute dungeon, which would make it the longest even after taking 8 minutes off!

Incidentally, for the first time ever I had a problem with a dps pulling ahead of me. I pull extremely fast, as you can guess by the fact that 8 minutes is an average dungeon for me. I always get at least 2 groups, usually 3 and not rarely 4, and as soon as things start to die I'm running to the next group, so the dps is still busy when I'm pulling. Well, I got a guild mage who didn't bother to finish things off, as soon as things started dying he'd blink towards the next group and start casting. Really should have let him die, but meh.


@All the people saying 'WoW isn't Epic anymore', 'Vanilla was way better'. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I have the strong suspicion there is a serious case of rose-tinted glasses going on here. IMO, Vanilla was only 'hard' because you had to organize 40 people. Noone knew what they were doing, you were carrying half the raid. Boss mechanics were trivial compared to what they are today. And the game mechanics themselves, do you remember having the 'wisdom bitch' add in the corner with JoW so dps/healers could wand it to get mana back? Healer rotations? Overworld buffs? Warriors were the only tanks, all paladins, shamans, druids and priests healed. Broken mage mechanics with rolling ignites? 1-shot pvp?

Or TBC. Bring 9 Warlocks, 5 rogues and 6 Shamans. Yeah, that was fun. Bring 9 healers for Twins but get down to 5 for M'uru, before dual spec, yay guild drama! 30-60 min cooldowns on possible encounter essential capabilities (shield wall, battle res, soulstone)?

There are problems with the game in every expansion, in my opinion the game is much better now than it used to be. Yes there are issues. I think most things would be fixed for me if there was a bigger penalty for screwing up. Getting hit by avoidable damage should be an insta-gib. Threat should be an issue and bosses that are tauntable should be tuned so that more than one aggro pull puts you too far behind on DRs to survive. They also shouldn't be so quick to nerf the tuning, especially these mid week nerfs. I hate when I don't get to fight the same boss my friends fought 2 days ago because we raid Thursdays instead of Tuesdays (some of our group runs with another character on the Tuesday raid, so moving the day is not an option for us). But these are qualms I have with a game that is, in my opinion, a very good game. I no longer have to pull teeth to get my group comp correct. I can raid with 9 people I want to raid with and do all the content I want, instead of putting up with people I don't like just to fill 15 extra spots. There are hard modes and achievements that stroke my epeen. Running 5 mans has never been easier. I don't have to do dailies just to afford mana pots which I used to chug every 2 minutes like clockwork through the entire raid (arcane mage ftw). I don't have to go respec and relearn all my abilities 4 times a week between pvp and pve, or between tanking and healing. Warlocks don't have to spend 20 shards summoning the raid anymore. You don't have to spend 5 reagents every time you buff anymore (well, pallies do, suckahs!) I don't have to move people in groups midfight anymore (move me in for hero, move me in for mana tide, move priest with melee for this phase, now with tanks for this phase).

So yeah, you're entitled to not like where the game has gone. But try to keep some perspective on all the bad stuff there was before too.
addams wrote:This forum has some very well educated people typing away in loops with Sourmilk. He is a lucky Sourmilk.


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