WoWzers!

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Chen
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:07 pm UTC

ProZac wrote:10 mans? Idk, maybe if you need 3 healers, your healing skill is in question? We usually run 3, we drop to 2 only when we're sure we can handle it. I'll admit last night on Prof P attempts, one of our tanks said "We need 3 healers, our tanks are dying". I about blew up on him, not because my healing skill was in question, but because that was about the worst idea I'd ever heard. "Tanks were dying" because they kept phasing him with a slime up. That is the problem, not that the healers aren't pulling their weight. To counter it, the one time before that point we had phased him without a slime, we stayed alive for plenty of time afterward, dps was just low.

25 man? God, I hope you're using more than 2 or 3...


Really some fights are just meant for more healers, the way some fights are meant for more tanks. Its just the way things go. You probably COULD 2 heal all the bosses but some are FAR easier when you 3 heal it. We added an extra healer on Sindragosa and it smoothed things out nicely since its not really a dps check. 10 man Sindragosa I'd imagine needs 3 healers otherwise you risk having both healers hit by the debuff and eventually preventing them from casting.

Also on Putricide its also worthwhile to push him over if there's a half dead slime up rather than if there's a new one just about to spawn. Split some dps off the slimes to the boss if you need to push him over. That or have rogues/mages/hunters avoid the tear gas and kill any slime thats up. They just need to be ready to use a health stone/pot or whatever so they don't die to the abom aura. Hunters have the hardest time avoiding the gas and can't mitigate it via iceblock/cloak so they're not the best ones to make do it.

For Putricide you reduce the raid damage a fair bit by taunting after each stack goes out rather than waiting for 4 then taunting. They stack exponentially.

mike-l
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:16 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:Why are people so offended by 2 and 3 healing an instance?

If something works, who cares?

I am mega far from a roleplayer, but if I was in a D&D adventure and we took out an ancient red dragon, we wouldn't be worried about how many clerics it took.


Ixtellor


Noone is really offended, it's just an epeen thing - unlike dps, healing is capped by how much damage the boss puts out, so it's just a question of 'can you handle it'. So saying 'we handled it with 2' is more epeen flexing than saying 'we handled it with 3'. Also, having too many healers makes it boring for us.

And it does come down to 'what works'. Our group had week dps, so we couldn't afford 3 healers, since 5 dps couldn't cut it. Now we've improved greatly as our 2 new players (who both hit 80 during ICC) are now decked out and doing 6-7k dps as opposed to the old 4kish, it's less important whether we run with 2 or 3, but we still usually use 2 because quite frankly, our third healer is garbage, but his dps is better than his healing (wouldn't bring him at all if he wasn't our only shammy).

Our guild's other group has a terrible healer as one of their mains, so they usually run 3 heals. They also have insane dps, so it doesn't hurt them so much.

@chen: yes I know that it's best to let the stacks go 1-1-2-2-3-3, but the raid damage is easily handleable until 4-4 (and even then), so we just let our druid keep dpsing until the warrior hits 4.

Right now we're using 3 heals on BQL and Dreamwalker (we even had some attempts with 4), Sind seemed easily manageable with 2 heals. You can still cast with the debuff, you just can't spam. If we both get it, the pally can still spam and just bubble after it's off, and I can cast about 15 times and barkskin and still survive. But we only had 2 attempts (I got that damn debuff every single time, I swear!) Honestly the raid damage in that fight is pretty light, but like I said we haven't seen p3.
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ProZac
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:34 pm UTC

Yeah, we go back and forth as well with Prof's stacks. I can see where it makes sense if you have a tank that can switch to do some nice dps though. And yes, I think I would quite enjoy it if I didn't hate it with a passion (for other reasons). It was more fun to two heal than it was when we were running 3.

And as for getting smoother, I'm sure it will with things like transitions and such, but my concern still lies in that 3rd phase. As I said, we had some of our best dps in there. I would have replaced... 1 person to get our 'best', and phase 3 still felt close. Granted, I guess if we can consistently do close I'll be happy.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:13 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:Right now we're using 3 heals on BQL and Dreamwalker (we even had some attempts with 4), Sind seemed easily manageable with 2 heals. You can still cast with the debuff, you just can't spam. If we both get it, the pally can still spam and just bubble after it's off, and I can cast about 15 times and barkskin and still survive. But we only had 2 attempts (I got that damn debuff every single time, I swear!) Honestly the raid damage in that fight is pretty light, but like I said we haven't seen p3.


Yeah we went up to 7 healers on Dreamwalker in our 25 man. Made it much simpler. I haven't seen the damage on 10 man but on 25 man its 2k per stack of the buff and it can crit (though its unclear if thats a bug). The raid damage in phase 3 increases a fair bit since you're getting the debuff that amps the magic damage everyone takes. The frost breaths start really hurting the tank near the end of the time before they clear their debuff. I don't know what the enrage timer is at, but I don't think we were close to it at all when we killed it.

ProZac wrote:And as for getting smoother, I'm sure it will with things like transitions and such, but my concern still lies in that 3rd phase. As I said, we had some of our best dps in there. I would have replaced... 1 person to get our 'best', and phase 3 still felt close. Granted, I guess if we can consistently do close I'll be happy.


Two or our 3 tanks had 4 stacks of the debuff for our last putricide kill and the whole room was covered in slime. Granted we got an ooze spawn right as we transitioned, but it would still have been fairly tight without that (as opposed to killing him by the skin of our teeth like we actually did).

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby TTS » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:45 pm UTC

We just got our first Valithria 25 rescue last night, took way too long though -- had one healer gone due to the fact she's going to pop out a baby within the next week, one gone since he's an emo primadonna and was "protesting" being sat on Free Loot Tuesday for the first time in MONTHS, and one just being unreliable. That left us with 6 healers -- We got very close a few times, and eventually had our one feral druid respec to resto -- He wasn't doing any significant amount of healing to Valithria, but he was doing enough extra raid healing to allow 5 of our healers(2 paladins, shaman, 2 druids(one of which was me)) to go down. The druids were rotating just to keep up mana, and the other 3 were going full-time. On our last pull of the night we killed her by the skin of our teeth. We were using, at the end of the night, 2 paladins(Who were getting 25-30 stacks by 5~ minutes), a shaman, a holy priest, 2 MS resto druids, and one offspec resto druid that was helping with raid healing. The priest never went down, and was getting fed innervates by multiple druids + mana tide.

I think we'd have gotten it a lot sooner if we had our pregnant resto shaman there as well, since we got to 96~% 2 or 3 times prior to our victory.

Haven't done 10 yet, although I'll be doing it tonight. We've been 1 shotting everything extra BQL, who we usually get in 2-3 pulls -- hopefully we can get Sindragosa down quickly and get a shot at Arthas this week.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:59 pm UTC

Chen wrote:I haven't seen the damage on 10 man but on 25 man its 2k per stack of the buff and it can crit (though its unclear if thats a bug).


That was hotfixed out very recently. I believe it to be 2k per stack as well on 10 man, but I haven't posted my combat logs to check yet.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:09 pm UTC

Huzzah, finished up [What A Long, Strange Trip It's Been] and got my Violet Proto-Drake, and consequently, my 310% bird form. Didn't care about this last year namely because I was a druid and the mount wouldn't have done me any good. They updated so that it applies to bird form though, so I had to wait for the ones I missed to come around. Also, if anyone else wants to do the vday achievements, and you don't want to bother doing the dailies for tokens, go to Ulduar and just clear the opening sequence in a demolisher. You can quickly generate the charms that way.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby TTS » Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:08 pm UTC

ProZac wrote:go to Ulduar and just clear the opening sequence in a demolisher. You can quickly generate the charms that way.


Hell yeah. I completed the entire meta yesterday in the span of a few hours, and then I went back and farmed more charms -- people on my server aren't too bright, they've been buying the chocolate pieces from me on the AH for 79.99g each. Made at least 1K gold yesterday doing so :)

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Dobblesworth
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Dobblesworth » Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:44 pm UTC

I'm twiddling my thumbs waiting on Love Is In The Air to pass on so I can scurry around and get all the Elders during the Lunar Festival; that gets me Violet Proto Drake/Welfare 310 Mount for my main. I don't at all understand the new iteration of the Valentine's Day event, and yeah, I've had ___ The Love Fool since they hotfixed the candy one to allow the achievement with 6/8.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:48 pm UTC

Dobblesworth wrote:I'm twiddling my thumbs waiting on Love Is In The Air to pass on so I can scurry around and get all the Elders during the Lunar Festival; that gets me Violet Proto Drake/Welfare 310 Mount for my main. I don't at all understand the new iteration of the Valentine's Day event, and yeah, I've had ___ The Love Fool since they hotfixed the candy one to allow the achievement with 6/8.


There are some new pets to get, some crappy 226 necklaces and possibly a new rocket mount. I really couldn't be bothered to do these new events right now though. I remember looking forward to my 310% Purple mount but that was ages ago before people knew which raid mounts were also 310%. I never did get my Naxx 310 mounts. I honestly hated trying to get Immortal and Undying so much so that I generally stopped trying for them. I really do want a Frostwyrm though from ICC. I'm not looking forward to some of the stupid achievements, especially on limited attempt bosses.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:04 pm UTC

Chen wrote:I really couldn't be bothered to do these new events right now though.
...snip..
I really do want a Frostwyrm though from ICC. I'm not looking forward to some of the stupid achievements, especially on limited attempt bosses.


Same. ICC is the only reason I log on anymore.

Going in on LK tonight, looking forward to it. The fight looks really crazy.
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Chen
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:22 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:Going in on LK tonight, looking forward to it. The fight looks really crazy.


Yeah we have 10 attempts tonight on 25 man Lich King. Considering something like 10 guilds have killed him on 25 man I'm thinking our chances are not too good. Would be a nice jump in our guild rank if we somehow did kill him though :P

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:53 pm UTC

Vali... Healy Dragon got rescued last night. Easiest fight of the new wings by far. I was going in the portals and stacking the buff (up to 45 when the fight ended), and the priest and paladin would bounce back and forth between cycles. Our logic was that I could throw HoTs on both tanks, i.e. basically continue healing while in the portal, so it was best if I stacked like that. I think next time we should try to get our paladin to stack, as even without a massive amount of stacks he was outhealing me on a few attempts.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:50 pm UTC

Sindragosa kicked our asses last night. The first 65% is so ridiculously easy, then it's just chaos at 35%. It didn't help that most of us had 2+ second lag (actually it did, since I could just ignore unchained magic becuase I straight up couldn't cast enough to kill myself :), but it didn't help that I got hit by every single frost nova thinggy even though on my screen I was well outside of the range.

I love this fight, (though it's annoying to sit through the first 65%), as it is 100% not about gear and 100% about execution and coordination. Failing miserably on it hopefully will get us all to step up our game.

In other news, she's been slightly nerfed (debuff stacks every 6 seconds instead of every 5, slightly less potent on 10 man) and attempts removed (not like we'd ever use all 20 anyway, we just don't raid that long)

How did LK go Chen?

ProZac, gratz on VD (wow, that came out wrong)
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:51 pm UTC

Lich King royally (uh no pun intended) kicked out ass yesterday. I think we're missing something in phase 1 because every now and then he'd hit our warrior tank for over 50k. Sometimes it was due to the buff he gets whenever the disease jumps targets (it was at 37 stacks once :P). But another time he hit him just as hard and it was at 12 stacks. So its unclear what we were doing wrong there. Getting the disease to jump onto the enemy add is also a pain in the ass. We ended up just having ranged dps on the shambler, melee on Lich king and the ghouls and having everyone run to the Shambler if they got the disease. Blizzard is a bit sadistic in having a fight where you want your players to run as close to the enemy mob as possible (to get the disease to jump to it when cleansed) but also gives that mob a practically 180 degree shockwave that insta gibs anyone that isn't a tank. With lag people "behind" the mob seemed to still get hit and killed by that shockwave.

We only got to the transition phase once with no shambler up which is a HUGE issue. On that next phase we just couldn't seem to kill Spirits fast enough so we transitioned back to tanking the lich king with like 2 spirits up each time (should only have 1, since one spawns right at the end). By this time we usually had people dead so that phase we didn't really learn much. I still haven't figured out where I need to tank the spirits in that phase because of their damn frontal cone aoe and the fact that everyone collapses on the Lich king when he spawns the Valkyr (3 on 25 man =/). On the upside it appears the Defile is MUCH more forgiving on 25 man than 10 man...or its bugged because you had to stand in it a good while to get it to grow on 25 man whereas it grows super fast on 10 man (probably due to the fact you have more people able to stand in it on 25 man).

Thank god they removed the limited attempts because I would not have foreseen a Lich King kill in the near future otherwise, if we were limited to ~15 or so attempts a week. Plus now we can start experimenting with crazy strategies again which is always a lot of fun.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:17 pm UTC

Attempt removal is definitely nice. I think that was a bad idea in the first place, at least for normal modes. If you want to have your limited attempts, keep them for the crazy hardcore people and the heroics.

New week new raid. Things seem more promising, though it's looking like I might find myself tanking on Thursday night. This is actually kinda exciting.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:05 pm UTC

ProZac wrote:Attempt removal is definitely nice. I think that was a bad idea in the first place, at least for normal modes. If you want to have your limited attempts, keep them for the crazy hardcore people and the heroics.

New week new raid. Things seem more promising, though it's looking like I might find myself tanking on Thursday night. This is actually kinda exciting.


I never had issues with attempts. For one thing, they don't affect me in the least, since we simply won't raid that long. 10 wipes on a boss means we call it a night.

But I don't like the idea of a boss where the strategy is 'try the same thing over and over again til we get lucky with debuffs/buffs', and I think attempts discourages that. On the other hand, I like trying crazy ideas, and attempts discourages that as well, so meh. I guess it comes down to - it doesn't affect me and I really don't care how you choose to play the game, so I couldn't care less about whether there are attempts or not.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:55 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:I never had issues with attempts. For one thing, they don't affect me in the least, since we simply won't raid that long. 10 wipes on a boss means we call it a night.

But I don't like the idea of a boss where the strategy is 'try the same thing over and over again til we get lucky with debuffs/buffs', and I think attempts discourages that. On the other hand, I like trying crazy ideas, and attempts discourages that as well, so meh. I guess it comes down to - it doesn't affect me and I really don't care how you choose to play the game, so I couldn't care less about whether there are attempts or not.


The biggest issue is that it rewards out of game actions (watching videos, reading strategies etc) more than actual in game actions (trying things out). I don't necessarily enjoy spending 15-20 min between attempts trying to exactly min/max what went wrong last time, especially when it could just have been RNG or some such.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:39 pm UTC

Yeah, pretty much what Chen said. I also don't like how attempts can basically be wasted so easily. 5 seconds of a fight and it's a wasted attempt. For example, last night at Sindragosa, the guild wouldn't listen to me. "She pulls as soon as the second dragon dies," I said. "No, that's a glitch and only happens after the trash respawns," he said. Who was right? This guy. Anyway, no one died and Sindragosa dind't even attack us as we were all standing in the ice wall thingymabober she makes. Still, used an attempt.

I'm also like mike-l, in that we'll likely never make a full 20 attempts in a week, but I don't like knowing that when we do manage to down all the bosses up to LK, our attempts on him are limited because of failures on the other bosses. I mean... 5/boss seems significantly less that ToGC's 10/boss. I'm really against the concept of it more than anything I guess. Though it'll never affect me, I would be supremely annoyed if it did.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Lucrece » Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:12 am UTC

The one thing I liked about the encounter was the dialogue. I was getting orgasms from it. The Lich King fight itself, kinda nice, but not out of this world as I had expected for the endboss of the xpac.

Oh, and yeah, Lavaman as the next Lich King, I WILL forget him, because if not I'll puke from disgust. Wish Tirion would've fought alongside you ala Maiev, but I guess technically speaking it would've been overkill against the Lich King, as Fordring himself could probably take him on himself, cheesy freeze out mechanic to let raiders participate and feel important aside.

But, yeah, don't think I'll be renewing until Cataclysm. All there is to the game at the moment is raiding, and that's a few hours per few days a week. 2 days max spent on the only interesting instance--ICC. The rest of the week is boredom I'm being charged for.

PvP in the game is too awful and imbalanced at the moment to be enjoyable. They could definitely improve it if they gave more PvP instances ala Wintergrasp and something akin to Strand of The Ancients/EoTS (on a bigger scale) that weren't on such long cooldowns and had mechanisms to balance out overwhelmed teams (to make PvP less of a "wonderful/incredibly aggravating coin toss scenario" as current BG's are). You don't see me mentioning arena because I did enough in BC, when it was actually better, and arena is still garbage to me; I need objectives besides killing players in PvP to stay entertained. I wish they would bring back mechanics like old-school AV with summoning powerful escorts and giants to favor your side if you secured and brought resources and achieved key captures.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:54 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:But, yeah, don't think I'll be renewing until Cataclysm. All there is to the game at the moment is raiding, and that's a few hours per few days a week. 2 days max spent on the only interesting instance--ICC. The rest of the week is boredom I'm being charged for.


Have you killed the Lich King? Cause I mean then there's a bunch of heroic bosses to start killing and unless you're in a top 10 or so guild I can't imagine being able (at least for the next while) to clear all of heroic ICC in 2 days. I suppose if all the non-attempt bosses are easy you could get limited by the 20 attempts but from what it seems, even the non-attempt bosses on heroic are going to be pretty tough.

PvP in the game is too awful and imbalanced at the moment to be enjoyable. They could definitely improve it if they gave more PvP instances ala Wintergrasp and something akin to Strand of The Ancients/EoTS (on a bigger scale) that weren't on such long cooldowns and had mechanisms to balance out overwhelmed teams (to make PvP less of a "wonderful/incredibly aggravating coin toss scenario" as current BG's are). You don't see me mentioning arena because I did enough in BC, when it was actually better, and arena is still garbage to me; I need objectives besides killing players in PvP to stay entertained. I wish they would bring back mechanics like old-school AV with summoning powerful escorts and giants to favor your side if you secured and brought resources and achieved key captures.


PvP does seem like more of an afterthought in WoW. Even in pure PvP games (like Guild Wars) there was always constant balancing going on to counter the flavours of the month. The problem is that in Guild Wars it was fairly easy to create one of the "good" class combos, whereas in WoW you're kinda stuck with the class you've geared up, even if they suddenly nerf it into the ground. I haven't really found an issue in BGs. They're fairly well balanced in my battlegroup. I mean I dislike them (and PvP) in general, but its not really because of the content itself, just a preference of mine.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Lucrece » Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:10 pm UTC

Nah, no hardmode LK yet. I'm not talking from a difficulty point; I'm talking from an aesthetic point. By this point I've done some hard modes and doing the same boss on a different difficulty level still can't maintain my interest.

I dunno, I just felt like I did more in a week in previous times than I'm doing right now. Or maybe I just got burnt out of WoW, I dunno. I mean, already attempted normal LK, and I should be excited like I used to be about new fights. But not even new fights excite me by this point. Not because they objectively are poor, but because I feel like WoW at the moment is just derivations of stuff I've experienced before, so even the new fights become routine to me.

And, yeah, PvP I did in GW, and it's clear balance is leaps away ahead of WoW's. You can't have a serious competitive environment when part of it is the gear grind in addition to the already existent class imbalances. Even if you do pull your gearing in PvP, PvE items like trinkets and offset pieces at the moment give such an absurd edge. Guild Wars instead made the same shit available to everyone to the point where you can't theorize it's an item or class/spec someone else was lucky to land on, because you can manipulate the parameters just as your opponents can, and thus it truly becomes a question of skill.

And, yeah, the whole constant balance passes in comparison to WoW's "we'll fix it next xpac" approach to underperforming specs/classes/systems/items only seals the deal.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:41 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:Nah, no hardmode LK yet. I'm not talking from a difficulty point; I'm talking from an aesthetic point. By this point I've done some hard modes and doing the same boss on a different difficulty level still can't maintain my interest.


Individual preference I suppose. Personally I play the game to progress my character and beat new bosses. And by new I generally mean mechanics wise. ToC was pretty bad for hard modes being different than normal modes except for the numbers. Everything hit harder, but all the fights were pretty similar. Ulduar on the other hand changed things a lot. Hard mode XT was quite different than regular mode XT and regular Mimiron compared to firefighter was also completely different. Hopefully ICC hard modes will be similarly different.

I dunno, I just felt like I did more in a week in previous times than I'm doing right now. Or maybe I just got burnt out of WoW, I dunno. I mean, already attempted normal LK, and I should be excited like I used to be about new fights. But not even new fights excite me by this point. Not because they objectively are poor, but because I feel like WoW at the moment is just derivations of stuff I've experienced before, so even the new fights become routine to me.


Again I guess its to each their own here. I imagine it'd be a good time for a break if I felt this way too.

And, yeah, PvP I did in GW, and it's clear balance is leaps away ahead of WoW's. You can't have a serious competitive environment when part of it is the gear grind in addition to the already existent class imbalances. Even if you do pull your gearing in PvP, PvE items like trinkets and offset pieces at the moment give such an absurd edge. Guild Wars instead made the same shit available to everyone to the point where you can't theorize it's an item or class/spec someone else was lucky to land on, because you can manipulate the parameters just as your opponents can, and thus it truly becomes a question of skill.


Exactly. WoW is really a PvE team game and the PvP stuff is pretty much an afterthought thats dressed up as a well designed part of the game. It'll never be a real competitive part of the game until things like that are fixed. The arena realms things where you got a choose a character with an appropriate set of gear is certainly a better stage for real balanced competition. Even here though, like in guild wars, there's always going to be one combination of things that are generally better than most of the others. The metagame itself will change, but without being able to drastically change your character quickly and easily, I agree it wont be seriously competitive.

And, yeah, the whole constant balance passes in comparison to WoW's "we'll fix it next xpac" approach to underperforming specs/classes/systems/items only seals the deal.


To be fair they do try and balance classes in each patch (or even hotfixes sometimes). You're going to have imbalances when you have drastically different classes and combinations thereof. Hell even starcraft back in its day went through constant balancing and it only had 3 races to deal with.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:33 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:And, yeah, PvP I did in GW, and it's clear balance is leaps away ahead of WoW's. You can't have a serious competitive environment when part of it is the gear grind in addition to the already existent class imbalances. Even if you do pull your gearing in PvP, PvE items like trinkets and offset pieces at the moment give such an absurd edge. Guild Wars instead made the same shit available to everyone to the point where you can't theorize it's an item or class/spec someone else was lucky to land on, because you can manipulate the parameters just as your opponents can, and thus it truly becomes a question of skill.


Isn't the entire point of the RPG though to have your characters improve? At least to me it is. I played GW a lot, but it had nowhere near the staying power of WoW, and the lack of gear improvement was the reason. On Saturday I ran a Naxx for fun and I solo healed it (hybrids had to cast some heals on Gothik for obvious reasons, but everything else was cake... the start of Thadd was fun... gogo HoTs). Now I'm certainly a better healer now than I was back when Naxx was relevant (since I didn't play a healer until WotLK),but undoubtably 95% of that is just the ability to solo heal now is that I, and the tanks and the dps, massively outgear the place now, and I like that. I don't like the idea of playing for a year and being no better than I was a year ago. I like that if I put in time, effort and skill, it makes my character better. So yeah, it makes balance issues, but I've chosen to keep paying for this game almost 60 times now (admittedly I've bought GW 3 times, heh, forgot login info for first account, and the email address I set it up with no longer exists, and then I bought the steam package with all the xpacs)
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Lucrece » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:10 pm UTC

Role-Playing Games are not required to be statistical grinds. You may get some enjoyment from doing the same thing over and over and pray a few items drop that one sixth of your raid will get, but that's not necessarily what I see as the point of a game.

The point of a game for me is to keep me entertained. Not with "you need to grind out this gear to do y" (and don't tell my I want things easy; as I said, I raided back in vanilla when the tier progression was much, much more strict in terms of gear). Perhaps GW did not have staying power for you because you measure progression via purples and how much time you invest in getting trivial things done (i.e. achievements).

I played GW, without gear improvements, and I could tell my progression by how much my play had improved. I didn't have the crutch of time spent on getting gear to have an advantage on my opponents; I had to be BETTER at playing my class on even grounds.

But as Chen pointed out, I pretty much answer my own question. While I have raided, I also was a Grand Marshall, BG baby back then (brutal grind, but the premade BG's were so fluid in development, not scripted and repetitive). I'm a PvP person at heart, and for a very long time I have hoped that WoW would improve on its implementation of PvP. Maybe it will in Cataclysm, but I will pay for it when it actually satisfies me.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby FoS » Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:57 am UTC

Our 10 man team went in on Tue night to push a little further in.

We walked in and one-shotted Blood Queen (we had spent time on her on Sunday learning the fight) which was a really great start and then began working on Vari.

What a fun fight. Our Holy Pally was healing for obscene amounts on that fight. At one point he was spiking to 45K HPS.
We managed to complete the encounter but it was a very messy kill.
For some reason her chest bugged out so we had to open a ticket for our loot. Blizz was nice enough to give us each and extra 2 EoF for our trouble.

Took a look at Sind. Looks like Sapphiron on crack from what we saw.

Sadly one of our DPS had to go so we didn't carry on working on her but 2 new boss kills was a nice way to spend the evening.

I'm taking a 2 week break from all raids so I can sort out some RL stuff so I'm sure I'll most likely be helping out on LK when I return.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:48 pm UTC

We ended up clearing the rest of ICC tonight with just Arthas left up. I'm going to reiterate how glad I am there arn't any attempts anymore. We did about 12 last night and only the last 2 comfortably got out of phase 1. I suspect the Valkyr's in phase 2 are going to be a large issue thats definitely going to take some practice at getting through. I think I need to spend some time re-gemming and enchanting some gear for dps since one of our other tanks is back now and most fights don't require 3 tanks (although I tanked the last 10% of Sindragosa in my dps gear on our last kill, until one of the breaths one-shot me heh).

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:47 pm UTC

A bit of guild drama on Tuesday caused us to not raid and left us with essentially 2 healers. Our warlock+alt priest and Main healer priest (both officers) decided a 'raiding break' was in order.

Last night was an interesting night too. One of our remaining officers was hell bent on raiding, to keep 'guild morale' up. An hour before raid, he got called in to work, down a dps. Shortly later, our MT was called in, and we were already short a tank for the night. A few calls, and we had a full guild raid, me tanking with our DK dps, and our Paladin 2 healing with the alt priest (who came back so we could raid...). We made it up to Festergut, and put a few attempts in on him before it was determined it wasn't going to work with this strange raid comp. I think the primary reason was our DK being a little squishy. Granted, I'm squishier, but I was sporting 50k life. I had a nice padding.

Our DK has an alt shaman geared as Elemental, he's going to bring in and start healing for us, so guild should be back on it's feet next week. Hopefully we can see some more bosses die. Added bonus: IT'S A SHAMAN. Sweet jesus, we're going to have Bloodlust again!

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:15 pm UTC

ProZac wrote:Our DK has an alt shaman geared as Elemental, he's going to bring in and start healing for us, so guild should be back on it's feet next week. Hopefully we can see some more bosses die. Added bonus: IT'S A SHAMAN. Sweet jesus, we're going to have Bloodlust again!


w00t!

Our guild's other group stole our top DPS, but fortunately we got a friend to return to the game and even in his tier-behind gear he's pushing 7k, so it's no big loss (only issue is we have no rogue now, which is kind of annoying at times). Sindragosa finally went down for us, which means the big Arthas is on the block for Monday (got a few hilarious uninformed attempts in, which included our tank getting hit for over 1 million by the disease) I also picked up the badge belt, and saw Marrowgar's Frigid Eye on the AH so I scooped that up as well. Only my chest and idol are under 251 now, so happy with my gear! Also got the Unidentifyable Organ, which people complain about in a Raid-boss scenario, but it's gotta be amazing for heroics :).

Gratz on getting a shammy.. now you just need replenishment.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:49 pm UTC

Replenishment was actually taken care of, at least on fights where it's needed. Our holy pally will sometimes go ret, one of our mages got a frost build (which he uses on festergut, so he can iceblock both exhales, and never move, just stand and dps), one of our Hunters is survival, and our warlock got a build with it too (but I guess he doesn't count anymore).

We also got the 'kill Frost Giant' quest this week, which was interesting. Using that I was able to pick up my 264 badge chest. Oh, also, I was guild first to hit exalted with Ashen Verdict last night. Badass healy ring~. Having a shaman also means I get his totem buff, which might put me over haste cap. I'll have to investigate this, I might have some respec'ing to do.

Also, Bloodlust is a crutch.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:26 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:Our guild's other group stole our top DPS, but fortunately we got a friend to return to the game and even in his tier-behind gear he's pushing 7k, so it's no big loss (only issue is we have no rogue now, which is kind of annoying at times). Sindragosa finally went down for us, which means the big Arthas is on the block for Monday (got a few hilarious uninformed attempts in, which included our tank getting hit for over 1 million by the disease) I also picked up the badge belt, and saw Marrowgar's Frigid Eye on the AH so I scooped that up as well. Only my chest and idol are under 251 now, so happy with my gear! Also got the Unidentifyable Organ, which people complain about in a Raid-boss scenario, but it's gotta be amazing for heroics :).


Arthas hits like a ridiculously large truck, at least on 25 man. Actually pretty much everything in that encounter hits super hard. I think its the first fight in a while where we've had frequent tank deaths. Our warrior is almost completely incapable of tanking reliably during the encounter, despite a gearscore of a little over 5900, compared to a paladin or druid. Are people really complaining about the Unidentifiable Organ? Its a fantastic trinket for ICC bosses and I bet it will be amazing for heroic modes. I wish I had one for Arthas. Even with like 39k armor and 60k health there are frequent times I on the verge of death (Arthas hit me for like 30k at one point with a normal attack...wasn't cool).

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:35 pm UTC

Chen wrote:Arthas hits like a ridiculously large truck, at least on 25 man. Actually pretty much everything in that encounter hits super hard. I think its the first fight in a while where we've had frequent tank deaths. Our warrior is almost completely incapable of tanking reliably during the encounter, despite a gearscore of a little over 5900, compared to a paladin or druid. Are people really complaining about the Unidentifiable Organ? Its a fantastic trinket for ICC bosses and I bet it will be amazing for heroic modes. I wish I had one for Arthas. Even with like 39k armor and 60k health there are frequent times I on the verge of death (Arthas hit me for like 30k at one point with a normal attack...wasn't cool).


The problem I understand with the organ is that it only procs on actual hits. Our tank says it NEVER stacks to 10 for him. (This info is about a month old, dunno if it's been changed). But in a heroic with usually 5-20 mobs beating on me... yumm!

And yeah, we had 4 arthas attempts I think, and between Arthas and the Shambler's berserks we saw some gibbing. But the one time we got the disease right it ended up back on our OT at the end of P1 and nobody dispelled him (god I wish I could cleanse diseases... stupid druids), so it ticked with 21 stacks... PWNT!
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:23 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:The problem I understand with the organ is that it only procs on actual hits. Our tank says it NEVER stacks to 10 for him. (This info is about a month old, dunno if it's been changed). But in a heroic with usually 5-20 mobs beating on me... yumm!


It procs off every hit though doesn't it? And the buff lasts 10 seconds. I find its pretty rare to go a full 10 seconds without taking a hit at all. And in the times I DO go 10 seconds without taking a hit, I don't really need the extra Sta (since unless my healers are asleep I should be topped off and likely have a shield and/or Valynir bubbles).

And yeah, we had 4 arthas attempts I think, and between Arthas and the Shambler's berserks we saw some gibbing. But the one time we got the disease right it ended up back on our OT at the end of P1 and nobody dispelled him (god I wish I could cleanse diseases... stupid druids), so it ticked with 21 stacks... PWNT!


Note sure if its different on 10 man, but 21 stacks is huge. We've been getting maybe 6-7 of the debuff by transferring it from the OT to the shambler and back (we sometimes try to get a ghoul in the group to build the stack a bit to do more damage to the shambler). I'm not sure the exact mechanic of the debuff but apparently it jumps to more people if its cleansed in a big group. I can't confirm it, but when we made the OT stand way away from everyone we went from Arthas having like 30 stacks of the debuff in phase 1 to about 10-12.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:48 pm UTC

Chen wrote:It procs off every hit though doesn't it? And the buff lasts 10 seconds. I find its pretty rare to go a full 10 seconds without taking a hit at all. And in the times I DO go 10 seconds without taking a hit, I don't really need the extra Sta (since unless my healers are asleep I should be topped off and likely have a shield and/or Valynir bubbles).

Just looked it up ot figure out what you guys were talking about. On WoWhead, the tooltip says it has a 60% chance to proc. So you would need to take about 2 hits per 10 seconds to stack it. Don't see where that would be a problem for me, seeing as in ICC, my dodge chance is about 26%.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:11 pm UTC

ProZac wrote:
Chen wrote:It procs off every hit though doesn't it? And the buff lasts 10 seconds. I find its pretty rare to go a full 10 seconds without taking a hit at all. And in the times I DO go 10 seconds without taking a hit, I don't really need the extra Sta (since unless my healers are asleep I should be topped off and likely have a shield and/or Valynir bubbles).

Just looked it up ot figure out what you guys were talking about. On WoWhead, the tooltip says it has a 60% chance to proc. So you would need to take about 2 hits per 10 seconds to stack it. Don't see where that would be a problem for me, seeing as in ICC, my dodge chance is about 26%.


2.4s swing timer, with miss you have 31% avoidance, so you are being hit 69% of the time, 60% of those proc, so about 41% chance to proc per swing of the boss. That's 59% chance to not proc, and if it doesn't proc 4 times in a row, it drops. The chance of this happening are 59%^4 = 12%. That's a 12% chance that each stack will be the last before it drops off, so it's not surprising when you don't get to 10 (chances of getting to 10 stacks is 27.5%). Now the tank in question has better avoidance than you (39.91% before any buffs at all in ICC.. and I'm not sure if it can proc off of blocks, but if not that's another 17.52%). Doing the same math as before, he has almost a 17% chance of dropping the stack each time. Thus he'll only get to 10 stacks 15% of the time it starts stacking. Now consider that it takes AT LEAST 24 seconds to fully stack (and the chance of it stacking that fast are 1 in 7500 with your gear)


On the other hand, tanking multiple adds or dualwielding bosses, it's surely very good. And heroics, which works for me cuz that's all I tank.


Edit: http://www.guildox.com/go/g.asp?a=2&s=1&r=&w=
It seems a Strict 10 man guild has killed LK on normal. So once again, predictions about things being impossible on week 1 prove to be completely wrong on week 2.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:42 pm UTC

2.4 sec seems a tad high for swing timer. Most things are 2 sec flat and can be parry hasted. Some are even faster (Sindragosa for one is significantly faster, but smaller hits). Also some bosses have secondary melee attacks (cleaves and such) so that also ups the number of attacks per unit time. I'm unclear where the 5% added miss came from. Chance to miss me is somewhere around 1.7% if I recall correctly and I have slightly higher avoidance (~28%) which probably means my miss chance is slightly higher too. The fact that it only works on actual hits does make it start becoming worse as you get more gear, but its still a pretty fantastic trinket. Passive armor trinkets start becoming pretty important when the hits start getting big. I can't imagine how hard things must start hitting on heroic. My basic rule of thumb is to be able to survive 2 hits without heals. So either reducing the size of the incoming hits (via armor) or increasing sta so that you can absorb bigger hits. It seems more reasonable where I am now, considering the ~60k health, that its more feasible to increase my armor to survive the two hits than it is to continue increasing my Sta, which makes this trinket fairly awesome. It is possible its significantly worse for other classes (warriors and DKs maybe).

Does it only stack on actual melee hits? Or any damage?

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:07 pm UTC

Chen wrote:2.4 sec seems a tad high for swing timer. Most things are 2 sec flat and can be parry hasted. Some are even faster (Sindragosa for one is significantly faster, but smaller hits). Also some bosses have secondary melee attacks (cleaves and such) so that also ups the number of attacks per unit time. I'm unclear where the 5% added miss came from. Chance to miss me is somewhere around 1.7% if I recall correctly and I have slightly higher avoidance (~28%) which probably means my miss chance is slightly higher too. The fact that it only works on actual hits does make it start becoming worse as you get more gear, but its still a pretty fantastic trinket. Passive armor trinkets start becoming pretty important when the hits start getting big. I can't imagine how hard things must start hitting on heroic. My basic rule of thumb is to be able to survive 2 hits without heals. So either reducing the size of the incoming hits (via armor) or increasing sta so that you can absorb bigger hits. It seems more reasonable where I am now, considering the ~60k health, that its more feasible to increase my armor to survive the two hits than it is to continue increasing my Sta, which makes this trinket fairly awesome. It is possible its significantly worse for other classes (warriors and DKs maybe).

Does it only stack on actual melee hits? Or any damage?


Ok, so I'm way behind the times, haven't tanked seriously since TBC, where swing timers were generally 2 seconds and tclap made it 2.4.

Confirmed with world of logs that it does stack on blocks, but does not appear to on non-physical damage (not one proc from BQL's shroud). From the limited data I have it seems have an average of about 2 stacks up, and very rarely hits 10, and doesn't stay there long. There are situation's it's great in though, like Festergut.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:59 pm UTC

More Arthas attempts yesterday. Things seem to be getting better and we made it a few times to the last phase of the fight. At this point in progression its really just stupid how hard Arthas hits. We've lost more attempts to random tank deaths than almost anything else (defile is probably still the number 1 wiper though). Our Prot paladin took something like a 30k melee hit and then 0.6 seconds later a 55k Soul reaper hit. Thats not a reasonable amount of damage to be taking. The buff soul reaper gives Arthas is 100% haste so it seems that ranged taunting and running the fuck away from Arthas is the best way to deal with it. Its a pretty chaotic fight.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Ixtellor » Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:02 pm UTC

Cancelled my account. Who wants to buy a Paladin!
Only thing I didn't finish accomplishing (within my playtime) was getting 450 Blacksmithing I think its at 447.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:18 pm UTC

Chen wrote:More Arthas attempts yesterday. Things seem to be getting better and we made it a few times to the last phase of the fight. At this point in progression its really just stupid how hard Arthas hits. We've lost more attempts to random tank deaths than almost anything else (defile is probably still the number 1 wiper though). Our Prot paladin took something like a 30k melee hit and then 0.6 seconds later a 55k Soul reaper hit. Thats not a reasonable amount of damage to be taking. The buff soul reaper gives Arthas is 100% haste so it seems that ranged taunting and running the fuck away from Arthas is the best way to deal with it. Its a pretty chaotic fight.


Aren't you supposed to switch tanks when one gets hit by the initial soulreaper hit (which is much less than 55k)? Not that I'm speaking from experience here, we didn't go back in on Monday due to a tank having to cancel :(. My enjoyment of this game is so fickle right now, I was planning on quitting after we downed LK normal mode, then we bagged Sind and I was reinvigorated, now we canceled a raid and I'm sapped again.

Ixtellor, I'd recommend holding on to your characters for a bit, you may regret giving them away/selling them in a couple of months.
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