WoWzers!

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FoS
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby FoS » Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:20 am UTC

I truly feel sorry for the Dev's doing the Feral Tree.

It's already jam packed with so many Talents that are worth taking and it's essentially 2 trees with overlap.
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Lucrece
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Lucrece » Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:15 pm UTC

My issue with the feral tree is that it's often been poised to be just a combination of limited versions of a rogue and warrior.

The premise has always been to keep bear and cat form gimped because it's seen as a bonus of having 2 classes to play with, so each form is lacking in proper tools that warriors and rogues possess for different play experience.

And so rogues and warriors keep whining that of bear or cat form is fleshed out with enough depth to match rogues or warriors, then they are pointless.

It's a stupid whine considering warriors and rogues are not crying about death knights or paladins filling in their dps and tanking roles. They just resent feral's ability to do multiple roles, but even then with dual spec a warrior can now easily change between DPS and tanking (and ferals need to switch gearsets just as much outside of tier sets).
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Midnight » Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:58 am UTC

Lucrece wrote:It's a stupid whine considering warriors and rogues are not crying about death knights or paladins filling in their dps and tanking roles.



Yes.

Yes I did. I whined bitterly about how DKs and Paladins were way better tanks for a significant portion of wotlk. I whined bitterly that YES, blizzard, most tanks ARE warriors, but that's from age-old stereotypes and not at all a good reason to make our tanking ability scale worse than other classes. I can tank better than most of those mofos but it aint my fault that I'm more limited by my class because they want to even out tanking classes.
I, to this day, find it absurd that you'd intentionally make a spec relatively weaker to make people more interested in other specs. If all the tanks want to be warriors its cause you screwed up in vanilla and made all tanks warriors.

Then I whined bitterly that DK/Ret was way too good a combination in arenas. And that DKs were silly powerful in alpha, beta, and release. I will admit I never complained about PvE ret dps because it's much easier to just laugh at ret dps.

However, I never complained about cat druids and rarely about bear tanks. Only times I did that was before dual specs and the feral druids could switch back and forth and be viable. You must admit that a bear can switch just a few pieces of gear and not switch talents and be an acceptable cat, whereas a warrior not only has to dual-spec it up, they also have to have a completely different set. Yes, it's obviously true that a BiS bear will look quite different than a BiS cat, but there is more talent and gear overlap than any other class.
Honestly I think because of their very different style of play (And the insane rotation for cat dps) they should've made those two different trees and homogenized the spellcaster trees somehow.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Lucrece » Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:06 am UTC

I'll swallow broken glass before seeing my balance druid get mixed with resto. Restoration spec has been a curse to ferals and balance druids in pvp for so long, always holding them back. Resto could always pick feral/balance abilities/talents than benefited them and made them more dominant than the abilities benefited ferals and moonkins themselves.

I'd love to see resto die a fiery death so feral and balance can catch a break. This brings us to the talent overhaul, which I'm very happy with. They're basically making it impossible for you to grab an offspec activated ability, which makes it so that balance and feral abilities no longer need to balance with the possibility of resto druids grabbing them in mind.

By the way, I don't know where the arena bit with rets and DK's overshadowing warriors. Yes, paladins and DK's were stupid in beta; that's what beta is for, twerking.

But now that the game is out, warriors are back to their infuriating dominance in arenas. Of course wizard cleave teams are dominant right now; but of the melee classes, warriors are still far more represented. By comparison rets are nearly nonexistent, and DK's are only Chains of Ice/Strangulate spamming bots for the warrior, not really doing the burst.

Warriors have been in a very good place for a while, and I don't mind if other tanks tank better certain encounters (like paladins), it's just a bonus for them. I doubt anyone rerolls and spends months regearing their character and raising professions just to obtain that slight advantage in tanking.

Their position is still better than that of prot pallies and feral druids who went entire xpacs being forced to heal, even if it was mind-numbingly boring for the player.

Granted, the argument for uniqueness and flexibility of feral is moot as in a raid you always will have all bases covered. It's pointless if a feral can switch some pieces and change roles, because the roles are already accounted for by someone else. So even if there weren't a feral druid in a raid, warriors would still feel threatened by losing their ability to be dps/tank hybrids by simply having one tank and one dps filling in the designed roles. Ferals would only realistically obviate the need for warriors if they could do both tasks at once, which isn't possible.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Midnight » Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:02 am UTC

I'm not saying crash the trees together. I'm saying if it was well-thought out, it'd probably be better than combining bear and cat.
dk/ret was dominant in 2v2 for like, the first six months (or more) of release. and I'm talking release DKs. they were silly powerful in Pv's E and P.
also both those classes were way better than anyone else in ulduar as far as tanking went. Hardmodes were done with DKs or Paladins. Bears could handle it with their huge HP pool. Warriors reduced 35k hits by.. 2k. And then sat in the corner during raids--for recall that the patch after ulduar was the one that nerfed Titan's Grip to oblivion, so DPS warriors got screwed too.

Prot warriors were, admittedly, way too powerful in pvp. but y'know what? I think we can all agree that blizzard should do what they did with that one ability. I forget the ability cause i haven't played in six months or so, but there was one that worked differently in PvP than it did in PvE. PVPers complain that PvE-influnced changes ruin their game, and vice versa. so just separate the shit that needs to be separated already.
I will say that I lack experience in pvp compared to some, and I haven't played in months so I haven't kept up with season a billion or whatever.


I disagree about what you're saying in raids. There are one-tank bosses and three-tank bosses, and most people bring two tanks in a ten man.

also, you say "slight advantage in tanking" and I say "In Xav's tank survivability tests against benchmark patchwerk, warriors have been at the bottom of the pole for long periods of time, and I recall multiple patches where other classes survived at least TWICE as long AND generated way more threat" Xav's benchmarks were situations where he'd have a BiS of all the tank specs get hit by patchwerk--in each test they'd get hit without doing anything, hit while doing their best to survive with cooldowns and stuff, and then hit while doing their best and also having a pocket healer.



I think my major problem is that warriors HAVE indeed been in a good place for a while. Years. Most of the lifespan of the game, except a patch here and there. So instead of looking at warriors and going "Wow, these guysshould be taken out", blizzard hsould say "wow, these OTHER guys need to be brought up!". I understand nerfs, and I understand nerfing warriors if they're overpowered. Whihc they have been--pvprot being an excellent example. But I disagree with a philosophy of "they're popular so let's make them less popular by making them less effective".
This goes true with other class specs. most of the ones that were considered "default" in vanilla wow. Rogues are making a comeback, and imo coming on too strong. Yet it compensates for that website dedicated to the fact that there used to be rogue nerfs--sometimes significant--in every. single. patch. But blizzard is asymmetric in compensation. Being at the bottom doesn't mean the other guy should get pulled to the bottom while you get pushed to the top. Being above the standard of dps or tanking or whatever means that you should get pulled down TO the standard. not pulled down to (or below) the standard while other classes get to go above it.





in the end, it's 2:30 in the morning, and the last of my coherence is this sentence: "Things were easier when frostshock spam was OP. Look it up."
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:29 am UTC

Lucrece wrote:Warriors have been in a very good place for a while, and I don't mind if other tanks tank better certain encounters (like paladins), it's just a bonus for them. I doubt anyone rerolls and spends months regearing their character and raising professions just to obtain that slight advantage in tanking.

Their position is still better than that of prot pallies and feral druids who went entire xpacs being forced to heal, even if it was mind-numbingly boring for the player.


Warriors are worse than paladins on pretty much every high end encounter at this point except maybe hard mode deathwhisper (since they can interrupt her there more easily). While better than druids/pallies were in earlier expansions, it still doesn't mean they're in a good spot. Anecdotally, our geared out warrior tank was harder to heal on Sindragosa when we were first trying her than one of our extremely moderately geared druids in his offspec tanking there. Effective health is just too important on these ridiculously hard hitting bosses. High end guilds that have been around a long time only have warrior MTs because these were their MTs from WAY back and I guess they've been afforded the luxury of not having to change (people like Xav for example).

In terms of DPS warriors, once again after TWO expansions of the same thing we see them doing a ton of damage now because of the stupid stupid rage mechanic. I'm not sure whats coming up in Cata for rage, but lets hope its better normalization than what they currently have. If rage generation is in any way related to how much damage you're currently outputting (either via damage per hit, or even number of hits) its going to form a feedback loop and again there'll be a threshold where warriors start scaling better than others.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Vincent91 » Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:10 pm UTC

Coming back from a nearly 2 years long break (I know I shouldn't...)

I used to play a Gnome Rogue before WotLK. I just rolled a BE Rogue (I'm looking forward to the AoE silence for PvP). Apparently, things have changed a lot (Mounts at 20?), so could anyone give me an idea of the situation for rogues nowadays?

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Veora » Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:12 pm UTC

Vincent91 wrote:Coming back from a nearly 2 years long break (I know I shouldn't...)

I used to play a Gnome Rogue before WotLK. I just rolled a BE Rogue (I'm looking forward to the AoE silence for PvP). Apparently, things have changed a lot (Mounts at 20?), so could anyone give me an idea of the situation for rogues nowadays?

Sub is a deadspec for PvE, falls a good 3-7k behind Assassination & Combat, However, recently its being used in PvP quite well

Combat's killing spree is deadly burst, really having a good niche for PvP, And being the best DPS spec (eventually, in hard modes)
Muti's damn good for PvE, And widly been used for pvp (poison talent, next to muti that lets envenom not eat DP Stacks, so you can cut through plate wearers)

Uhh, Fan of Knives is pretty awesome, we have decent AoE finally, Tricks of the trade lets you turn a bad tank good.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Vincent91 » Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:38 pm UTC

Aww Subtlety is where all the fun is :(

I was thinking about attempting to level up using subtlety and daggers, mostly for the occasional PvP, the fun stealthy parts and the survival. I know it's probably not the ideal spec for leveling - everyone says combat is the easiest - but it's what I like most in rogues. I just hope my DPS won't be too shitty in dungeons before I hit endgame.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:20 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
Warriors are worse than paladins on pretty much every high end encounter at this point except maybe hard mode deathwhisper (since they can interrupt her there more easily). While better than druids/pallies were in earlier expansions, it still doesn't mean they're in a good spot. Anecdotally, our geared out warrior tank was harder to heal on Sindragosa when we were first trying her than one of our extremely moderately geared druids in his offspec tanking there. Effective health is just too important on these ridiculously hard hitting bosses. High end guilds that have been around a long time only have warrior MTs because these were their MTs from WAY back and I guess they've been afforded the luxury of not having to change (people like Xav for example).


I've healed druids warriors and paladins on H Sind and the Pally was definitely easiest just due to Ardent Defender changing the fight from 'healers can never screw up' to 'healers can screw up once', didn't really notice a difference between the warrior and the bear.

A warrior is BY FAR the best OT on LK though, with stuns, interrupts, and safeguarding.

As for cats and bears having gear overlap, maybe in arena where they are gemming and enchanting for stam and resil, but in ICC, bears gem and enchant stam and nothing else, so most even have 2 tier sets for their feral tree by this point, and bear jewelry/cloaks are going to be tank pieces +StrStamDodgeDef type things. As for spec, I guess you could spec thusly and not miss too much from either spec (notably missing 30% swipe damage, AP reduction and Attack speed reduction, without improved mangle either your threat is taking a big hit), but I'd imagine most serious druids that play both roles have two specs for it.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Vyn » Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:00 pm UTC

I remember the 3.2 patch all to well on my DK main tank... went from best to worst tank in one patch. While pallies went from 2nd-3rd with druids to undisputed 1st. But DK's were nerfed in every single patch in Cata anyway so it doesn't matter to much. Went back to my vanilla Lock when 3.2 launched anyway. Though the blood DK looks like fun again in Cataclysm so I might bust him back out to play with, though the lock looks even better.

The new tree shrinking should be very interesting. Really can't wait to see that patch come out on the next beta build.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:16 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:I've healed druids warriors and paladins on H Sind and the Pally was definitely easiest just due to Ardent Defender changing the fight from 'healers can never screw up' to 'healers can screw up once', didn't really notice a difference between the warrior and the bear.


A druid should have a TON more health than the warrior on Sindragosa. Because she used to hit so hard that extra health was often the difference between living and dying. I'll grant that at 15% and up its probably not as noticeable since the warrior has enough health now to deal with the big hits from Sindragosa.

A warrior is BY FAR the best OT on LK though, with stuns, interrupts, and safeguarding.


Maybe on Normal mode. They tend to get destroyed on heroic. The stuns are nice I'll grant, but a pally on the adds is just better since they can survive a melee hit that immediately follows an enrage/berserk with ardent defender in case the stun/tranq doesn't get off at the exact right time. Not to mention a paladin provides an extra Aura mastery for Infest (thats a separate issue I'd guess though). Also whatever the other talent is where they take reduced damage for a hit that drops them below x% health is a lifesaver for Soul Reaper.

As for cats and bears having gear overlap, maybe in arena where they are gemming and enchanting for stam and resil, but in ICC, bears gem and enchant stam and nothing else, so most even have 2 tier sets for their feral tree by this point, and bear jewelry/cloaks are going to be tank pieces +StrStamDodgeDef type things. As for spec, I guess you could spec thusly and not miss too much from either spec (notably missing 30% swipe damage, AP reduction and Attack speed reduction, without improved mangle either your threat is taking a big hit), but I'd imagine most serious druids that play both roles have two specs for it.


There are enough different talents in the trees that its a lot easier to have a different bear and cat spec. As for gear I have 1 piece that is the same between my sets and its my 277 Tier gloves. Its the only real piece that didn't really hurt too much to use for both (10 agi/15 sta gem and the agi enchant). Its still not ideal since for dps i'd have a 20 ArP gem and for tanking it'd have a 30 Sta gem and possibly the Sta enchant instead of the Agi one, but those are fairly minor. Almost everything else is better off as dedicated to one spec or the other. The only time it was really easy to have a dual role set was in BC when you gemmed everything with Agi and tanked fine and did optimal dps.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby FoS » Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:54 pm UTC

Heh, thats amusing. Try DPSing in Cat form with a Bear spec and then we can have a chat.

Cat and Bear are completely different gear sets and specs.

Comparing Bear's and Warriors is also quite wildly inaccurate, much as comparing Rogues with Cat's.

Bears work on a completely different method then Warriors. Heck, even our O shit buttons are completely different. We're focused around our raw HP and Armour to mitigate the damage we recieve while Warriors rely on a combination of all their abilities.

Cats and Rogues, while they might seem similar they are very very different animals in a Raid. Cats rely on juggling 3 Bleed Effects, 1 Buff and 1 Debuff which sounds easy but is in fact the most complex DPS rotation in the game (worse then a Shadow Priest even)

Energy and Stealth is about as close as the 2 are to each other and quite frankly Stealth is really just for soloing as a Cat. It bears no real influence in raids.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Midnight » Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:42 am UTC

I... I pointed out all these things. The main thrust of my argument is that--anecdotally (But many many a time) I have been in situations where the bear will change to cat and dps because that's a lot easier than the warrior switching specs and gear. I'm not saying that they are alike in gearing--just MORE alike. You get the same tier pieces, as an example.

And I said that cat needs to be simplified. If I didn't, I should've. I'm quite aware of the difficulties of cat dps and the differences from rogues.

Also, saying that warriors rely on a combination of abilities...? Druids and Warriors play most similiarly when tanking. We don't do any of that 6/9 pally stuff or the rune stuff. It's priorities, except for you guys one of your top priorities is a bleed (and when I was tanking I had 2 bleeds myself).



Again my damn point is that the talent overlap of cat and bear is kinda silly, and in the end just give druids 4 damn trees.


But yeah /agree with Chen on warriors. Personally I LIKE the idea that warriors scale more than other classes, but it's consistently (and most noticably in this expansion) gotten out of hand. Going from pretty-damn-weak in naxx to Ulduar putting us on top of every damn chart so we needed a 10% nerf which meant that the lower tiers would be hurt even MORE... argh. I like the idea of us scaling more, like I said. But instead of having us 80% other classes' ability at the start and 120% later.. i'd prefer 95 and 105...
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby FoS » Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:29 am UTC

Bugger that. Cat form should not be simplified at all. I like it so much because it's so much tougher then anything else.

Think about it. If a Feral spec was generic for both DPS and Tanking it would be broken.

The forms are a unique mechanic that we enjoy.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby meatyochre » Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:35 am UTC

FoS wrote:Bugger that. Cat form should not be simplified at all. I like it so much because it's so much tougher then anything else.

Think about it. If a Feral spec was generic for both DPS and Tanking it would be broken.

Just because you enjoy unnecessary complications to perform well in a raid doesn't mean that cat dps isn't horribly and needlessly overcomplicated for the vast majority of wow players. It should be changed if theorycrafting is a requirement to perform adequately. You call it dumbing down, I call it bringing the rotation's complexity in line with other DPS classes.

Love my druid... but fuck cat form right in the ass for anything except mangle spam+FB while leveling.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Kag » Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:41 am UTC

Midnight wrote:Again my damn point is that the talent overlap of cat and bear is kinda silly, and in the end just give druids 4 damn trees.


Don't Death Knights have six trees by the same argument?
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Veora » Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:06 am UTC

Beta was updated, new tree's on MMO


And i don't like them.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:09 pm UTC

The difficulty for the cat dps rotation was tough when you had to juggle 12 second mangles. With the new 1 min mangles, the difficulty I'd say is easier than Shadow priests. Keeping rip, rake, mangle and SR up is pretty simply now. The only real difficulty is optimally using FB and not letting other things drop because of it. And thats hardly necessary to produce good dps. You can do a very respectable amount of damage using FB once or twice per fight (say near the end of a berserk and maybe that one other fluke time where you got a ton of OOC procs). Hell I'm sure you'd do fine dps if you ignored FB completely.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:39 pm UTC

Yeah, I played cat dps a week before it went to a 1 min mangle. Definitely made learning a hell of a lot easier, and as long as you have some sort of bleed timer (I use Power Auras), it's not too difficult. Only thing I would ever really mess up is the FB, which Chen mentioned. And that was me just trying to slide an FB in when I really shouldn't.

And I didn't realize Shadow priest dps was so hard. Now I really feel like I was doing it wrong, as I thought it was fairly simple (unless the difficulty was in not clipping things). I really need to go and look at a guide again.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:01 pm UTC

Veora wrote:Beta was updated, new tree's on MMO


And i don't like them.

atall.


I only looked at the resto druid so far and I'm so disappointed. You can pick up every single healing talent, and I think that's lame to begin with, I'd like to make choices. Ok, so I get to make a choice in where my last... 1 point goes, between a bunch (3) of talents not related to the job I want to perform? Oh right, I also get to pick between blowing 3 points in one shape shifting talent or another. Cuz you know how much resto druids shape shift.

If the talents go live like they are right now, I think every raiding resto druid will have exactly the same spec, I thought they were trying to avoid that. (Obviously they can't go live exactly like they are, because right now Nature's Swiftness is 11 points into the resto tree but requires moonkin form? And swiftmend is granted at level 10 but is also a talent)
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:28 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:I only looked at the resto druid so far and I'm so disappointed. You can pick up every single healing talent, and I think that's lame to begin with, I'd like to make choices. Ok, so I get to make a choice in where my last... 1 point goes, between a bunch (3) of talents not related to the job I want to perform? Oh right, I also get to pick between blowing 3 points in one shape shifting talent or another. Cuz you know how much resto druids shape shift.

If the talents go live like they are right now, I think every raiding resto druid will have exactly the same spec, I thought they were trying to avoid that. (Obviously they can't go live exactly like they are, because right now Nature's Swiftness is 11 points into the resto tree but requires moonkin form? And swiftmend is granted at level 10 but is also a talent)


It was generally an illusion of choice before though. There was an optimal spec and a sub-optimal one (perhaps different specs though, depending on what exactly you did more of). Most specs of all classes had at best a couple of points to throw into personal choice talents. The rest were pretty much decided for you because not choosing them was simply a BAD choice.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Vyn » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:50 pm UTC

If you think the resto one's bad, look at the Affli lock one. You have to take every single talent in the tree just to get to Haunt, and there's only a total of 33 points in the tree. You HAVE to take either imp howl of terror or imp fear, as well as CoX and imp drain soul. All completely useless for raiding at all. And they removed imp felhunter so affliction has no useful pet again. Demo at least looks decent, as does destro, except for the fact you STILL don't get incinerate til lv 64. Yay, a talent tree designed around one spell doing 70% of your damage and you don't get that spell until you've completely finished the tree? That's like a 10 y/o being talented in open heart surgery before he goes to college to be a doctor and licensed to do it. Ugh, Blizzard is straining my patience.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:16 pm UTC

Chen wrote:It was generally an illusion of choice before though. There was an optimal spec and a sub-optimal one (perhaps different specs though, depending on what exactly you did more of). Most specs of all classes had at best a couple of points to throw into personal choice talents. The rest were pretty much decided for you because not choosing them was simply a BAD choice.


Oh I know, but I thought they were trying to get away from that and make more interesting choices.

And while there wasn't a ton of choices before, there were some that were actually related to healing. You could go deeper in balance to pick up more haste at the cost of things like living seed and empowered touch. Nature's Grace vs Living Seed was a choice that really depended on your healing style even when you got enough haste on your gear to make celestial focus not worthwhile. I admit it's not much, but at least I'm not just picking up every single healing talent and fiddling with the leftover points (sorry, point) for instant wraths vs reduced spell damage vs reduced mana on shapeshift.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Lucrece » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:54 pm UTC

Um, read the blue posts. Druids are the class 31 pt talents farthest behind in development. What they release were the MOLDS for the trees, not the actual talents.

Look at the hunter talent for comparison.

And, yes, you will be able to grab most of the stuff on the tree-- that's intended. Previously you were unable to do so because it meant you lost x percentage in damage boost from some passive % talent that has now been replace by passive tree bonuses and mastery.

We druids are just going to have to wait a few more builds to see our talents.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby FoS » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:56 pm UTC

meatyochre wrote:
FoS wrote:Bugger that. Cat form should not be simplified at all. I like it so much because it's so much tougher then anything else.

Think about it. If a Feral spec was generic for both DPS and Tanking it would be broken.

Just because you enjoy unnecessary complications to perform well in a raid doesn't mean that cat dps isn't horribly and needlessly overcomplicated for the vast majority of wow players. It should be changed if theorycrafting is a requirement to perform adequately. You call it dumbing down, I call it bringing the rotation's complexity in line with other DPS classes.

Love my druid... but fuck cat form right in the ass for anything except mangle spam+FB while leveling.


The reason why people find Shadow Priest and Cat DPS so hard is just because there is no set rotation.

You actually need to think to do it.

There are plenty of idiot DPS classes in the game. Leave the difficult DPS classes to those that want them.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby WarDaft » Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:36 pm UTC

Veora wrote:Beta was updated, new tree's on MMO


And i don't like them.

atall.

Protection paladins get 45 second Consecration.


I wonder, does it stack?
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Oregonaut » Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:33 pm UTC

I just came back to WoW after not playing since September and found my account had been hacked.

ACCOUNT HACKING BASTARDS.

That is all.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Lucrece » Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:59 pm UTC

FoS wrote:
meatyochre wrote:
FoS wrote:Bugger that. Cat form should not be simplified at all. I like it so much because it's so much tougher then anything else.

Think about it. If a Feral spec was generic for both DPS and Tanking it would be broken.

Just because you enjoy unnecessary complications to perform well in a raid doesn't mean that cat dps isn't horribly and needlessly overcomplicated for the vast majority of wow players. It should be changed if theorycrafting is a requirement to perform adequately. You call it dumbing down, I call it bringing the rotation's complexity in line with other DPS classes.

Love my druid... but fuck cat form right in the ass for anything except mangle spam+FB while leveling.


The reason why people find Shadow Priest and Cat DPS so hard is just because there is no set rotation.

You actually need to think to do it.

There are plenty of idiot DPS classes in the game. Leave the difficult DPS classes to those that want them.


Um, no. Set rotations are gone for most classes. Even for arcane mages whom everyone loves to rag on, they too have priority systems.

Affliction warlocks have to follow buffs/debuffs as well.

Heck, I've DPS'd feral despite maining as balance. It's not hard at all. Hurray, I can pull 14k DPS. Guess what? It's still tedious as fuck.

Other DPS are not idiot DPS. Feral and shadow (I have a shadow priest, and they aren't hard to DPS with either, although they are certainly more fun to play as than feral) are not Special Snowflake specs.

The spec is flawed. Savage Roar should not make up so much of our damage for a buff, it may look fine in PvE but its BLOWS for PvP. Addressing clipping DoT's is actually a good thing, especially for PvP.

Feral will be getting more "tricks" according to devs, so its toolbox is actually being expanded, and I like to press different buttons on my friend Catherine. That doesn't mean the spec should be inaccessible to people who like the idea of playing a cat but for some reason are not well-suited to the current rotation.

This is a game with a wide customer base first, before it is just some source for spreadsheet production.

For those who want to feel elite, join the fucking Marines or buy a Lamborghini . This is a videogame, and videogames are not cool.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:25 pm UTC

I know you like to pvp Lucrece, but really, it's what everything you point out has issues boils down to. Not working in PvP. Really, as long as it all exists in the same environment, they're never going to be able to achieve a balance between complex vs simple, difficult vs easy, or PvP vs PvE. Maybe they could, but any slight update to the game would throw it all out of balance and they'd have to start over again. Since they change the game so frequently.... balance isn't going to happen. And I think Blizzard has shown that they care more about PvE than PvP.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Lucrece » Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:48 pm UTC

I was being flippant with the video game comment.

It just annoys me that people using an entertainment medium long stigmatized by those "cool" and elite mature/sport/serious people would resort to the same behavior that tries to marginalize groups of people enjoying a game by enforcing their own brand of "cool videogaming", aka separating "retard noob players" and "serious my 12/12 HM's and Shadowmourne demand that my opinions on game development supersede yours!" people.

If Blizzard had made a definite show that they care more about PvE than PvP, rogues wouldn't have gotten beat up in about every patch in history related to PvP over-effectiveness. Ditto with warlocks, BM hunters (only reason they suck in PvE is because devs are afraid to buff them in PvP by increasing their already high damage output in short windows of time).

They would've just cut it out after one xpac. They haven't.

And as long as they keep that content in, as long as they have that pretense or genuine goal of balancing PvP alongside PvE, they need to make an effort. Otherwise we might as well have the PvP'ers informed that their input isn't of equivalent weight and PvP is officially secondary, so we can move to a game that does care about PvP.

I'm sure Blizzard cares about PvP, though. They've put in quite a bit of resources into shaping it xpac after xpac, so I'm staying around so long as they make an effort.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Midnight » Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:05 am UTC

FoS wrote:Bugger that. Cat form should not be simplified at all. I like it so much because it's so much tougher then anything else.

Think about it. If a Feral spec was generic for both DPS and Tanking it would be broken.

The forms are a unique mechanic that we enjoy.

i didn't say they SHOULD be interchangable. multiple times i said they should be FURTHER differentiated.

and i think that all specs should have that difficulty, personally. so it's kind of unfair to cats... or too easy on other players.


and death knights shouldn't have 6 trees cause in cataclysm that's getting fixed, anyways: (correct me if i'm wrong) blood is being the tank tree and the other 2 are dps--i believe dual wield for frost and 2h for unholy. or maybe it's just more-physical for frost and more-magical for unholy. regardless, there will be no blood dps and no unholy or frost tanks.

furthermore, @ tree complainers. It ain't done yet. there will be more than 33 afflic lock talents, as an example.

also, i'm reading these posts out of order, so i would like to mention that set rotations are almost totally gone. anyone that says they're still around hasn't been playing for years.
uhhhh fuck.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Lucrece » Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:46 am UTC

Frost has both 2H and DW functionality, while unholy will remain solely 2H.

Frost is not necessarily more physical, although its damage might have a hefty part to play (obliterate, dual-wield specs). However frost still maintaines hefty magical damage via frost strike and howling blast via Rime procs. It's a stupidly fn spec.

Unholy I see as being lest bursty and more sustained. Heavy duty DoT damage, and add in the permanent pet for further stable sustained as opposed to frost's spikier performance.

Either way, frost will have 2 dps specs and a tank spec, similar to warriors. Priests get 2 healing and 1 dps spec. warriors, priests, and DK's are what I like to call mid hybrids. Still not as hybrid-ish as druids, shamans, and paladins, who perform 3 roles nstead of 2. The thing with druids is that they have 2 dps, 1 tanking, and 1 healing role. In order to make up for the lack of talent space to accommodate separate cat/bear specs, they basically either need to condense the feral talents for dual functionality and let gear be the separating factor. It's either that, or build in the required abilities into the forms and base abilities themselves. They go for the former because they don't want resto druids grabbing extra survivability or damage potential.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:50 pm UTC

Midnight wrote:and i think that all specs should have that difficulty, personally. so it's kind of unfair to cats... or too easy on other players.

Definitely agree with this.

furthermore, @ tree complainers. It ain't done yet. there will be more than 33 afflic lock talents, as an example.

I looked at the mage now too and it seems to be exactly the same, with only point of choice for fire, and none for arcane. I know there will be changes, but what I've seen suggests that their model is 'everyone can pick up everything relevant in their main tree', which isn't interesting at all.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby FoS » Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:12 pm UTC

PvP'ers who whine about a PvE focused game not catering enough to them. Lolz.

I don't find Cat DPS to be hard at all but apparently enough people do for Blizz to look at making it easier.

Whether the changes they implement work or not, time will tell but I don't wanna see another rendition of Enhance Shammies where the way the spec plays changes wildly because Blizz can't make up their mind due to the clamoring of idiots.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:07 pm UTC

FoS wrote:Whether the changes they implement work or not, time will tell but I don't wanna see another rendition of Enhance Shammies where the way the spec plays changes wildly because Blizz can't make up their mind due to the clamoring of idiots.


The clamoring idiots make up the majority of the playing base though. So clearly they'll try to follow that as best as they can.

There is one talent currently that increases rake and SR duration by 6 seconds each. Thats pretty huge. Not to mention the talent to let FB refresh Rip once the target is below 25% health. Those alone would make the rotation easy enough that even very poor players would probably be able to do somewhat decent damage.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby meatyochre » Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:37 pm UTC

Poor players and clamoring idiots? Wow is not a game where skill plays a large part. If you want to be an elitist about the playstyle ability of "teh masses" then why don't you play Counterstrike or Street Fighter instead?

I'm so tired of attitudes like yours. Did you ever stop to think that you are the oddity, and that the less-skilled masses are the norm?
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Lucrece » Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:25 pm UTC

Useless question meatyochre, it is in the feeling of oddity and not being the norm that these type of people derive pleasure from. Ayn Rand school of thought.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby meatyochre » Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:48 pm UTC

Well, I still feel morally obligated to try and point it out.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Midnight » Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:34 pm UTC

FoS wrote:PvP'ers who whine about a PvE focused game not catering enough to them. Lolz.

I don't find Cat DPS to be hard at all but apparently enough people do for Blizz to look at making it easier.

Whether the changes they implement work or not, time will tell but I don't wanna see another rendition of Enhance Shammies where the way the spec plays changes wildly because Blizz can't make up their mind due to the clamoring of idiots.


I've heard plenty of pvp players say the exact opposite. their argument is that blizzard makes more money from pvp than pve, from the whole esports perspective.

furthermore, if you want more skill, either do pvp, because then you'll be against people who think that pve requires no skill (much like you)... or pick a different game. if you don't enjoy the difficulty--or lack thereof--then try one of a different difficulty.

and as far as clamoring idiots go... I'm pretty sure most of it is internal testing. clamoring idiots are the minority. most people are unclamoring and less idiotic. only a fraction of the population complains on the forums.
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