WoWzers!

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mike-l
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:18 pm UTC

Rackum wrote:Yeah, depending on if it's Vellum 1, 2, or 3 it can be from 2g a stack up to 5-7g apiece. But still not bad. The best tactice I've found is to farm up some of the preBC enchants that are rare since they only require the cheap vellums and then list them for a good chunk since very few people have the enchant and they can be placed on heirlooms (Crusader, +15 Agi, etc.).

Edit: Didn't know about there only being 1 vellum level now.


And it works for weapons and armor. All your old vellums are just 'click to make into new vellum' items now.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Menacing Spike » Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:27 pm UTC

Rackum wrote:very few people have the enchant and they can be placed on heirlooms (Crusader, +15 Agi, etc.).


Well, I prefer this on a tank: http://thottbot.com/?qu=706
You can put the enchant on a heirloom and trade it anyway.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:43 pm UTC

You can put enchants or inscriptions (shoulder) on heirloom gear, but you can't get the benefit from it on a different toon. For example, my priest put inscription of the crag on some shoulder heirloom peice, and gave it to my younger warlock. Because the lock doesn't have 400 inscription, he doesn't get the +78 or whatever sp.

I'm wondering if vellums are now any level. Before, Vellum III's were only for enchants for item level 60 or lower.

And yeah, Oragonaut, the vellum market didn't do anything but eliminate the need to GOTO an Enchanter, and it certainly couldn't take everything enchanters could do (i.e., anything above level 60)

Also, I thought the point of the shadow orb mechanic for spriests was to make them feel like actual... spriests... prior to shadowform... But I see now it's a mastery talent? So... what the shit?
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Lucrece
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Lucrece » Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:09 pm UTC

I can see shadow orbs being turned into a talent and a new mastery being fashioned.

Judging from the feedback on the beta forums, shadow orbs make for a hard mastery to balance since it only includes SOME spells that don't get used very often, and thus the value of mastery in PvE is much lower than haste or crit. If it gets buffed, spriests will hit like a truck in PvP, so we're in a Catch-22.

I reforged to all mastery for PvP and I'm landing 30k Mindspike crits with 3 shadow orbs. Mindspike is a 1.28 sec cast, and I can chain two more and get an instant Cast Mindblast with a guaranteed chance to crit, followed by a 9k shadow word death. SWD also hits for like 14k on targets at 25% or below, and glyphed it can be spammed until you kill those wounded targets.

Which is problematic, because shadow DoT's seem a bit medium relative to other classes. Moonkin and aff locks are doing higher DoT damage. Which is fine if we had bread and butter nukes to catch up, but Mindflay is SOOOOOOOOOO weak that I just DoT shit up and blow them up with Mindspike because otherwise Mindflay would take an eternity to kill them.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Dobblesworth » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:17 pm UTC

Assessment of life without X-Perl until it gets a working complete retail release:
Aaaahhhhh my eyes, the Blizzard new edition default raid frame is so terrible!

- the original Scrolling Combat Text got an update, so I'm fairly pleased about that

- Don't know if anyone else has seen this: Shaman/Paladin/Druid revamps for their relic slots, while having a Red Socket, do not come attached with a socket bonus. Which intrigued me terribly. If you weren't gonna overtly-pressure gem choice, you could at least have made it prismatic to spell it out ;)
- Shaman's upset his elemental totem: get flame shock tick up five times on any dudes in 30 secs or less per tick for 300-400 haste rating, has jumped down to 30-40 haste passive, albeit among a few things.
- With nothing to fear of the ammo change and churning through more projectiles from a 2.1 rather than 2.6+ speed, with mastery reforging an option to lose the parry rating slapped on it, with gun specialisation from a dwarf, and with probably now a greater weight on base weapon damage... my hunter has re-adopted his Rowan's Rifle of Silver Bullets (that ICC25 boe prot warrior statstick) over the ICC10 LDW Njorndar Bone Bow I'd hung around with for a while; sortof to get GS-whores out of my face - I'm sorry but [pre-401 this is] agility-gem-stacking-in-tier-ten-marksmanship is a viable strategy, and that gun is rather close to BiS due to intriguing set bonus synergy.

Until most of the addons I pretty much rely on get back in the game, and until I can get a finger on how to redesign my hunter's UI from the ground up, I think I'll go cold-turkey from WoW for the next week-ish.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby meatyochre » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:22 pm UTC

Any thoughts on mastery vs crit vs spirit vs haste for resto druids now? And healing style/rotation? I was having trouble tracking hots in the one heroic I've run, since grid died, and I'd like to get back on track by raid time on Saturday. Will probably try out vuhdo later tonight.

Resto druid mana regen is out of this world so I figured I didn't really need the spirit. I bought up 4 pieces of t10 since I was over the 4k justice points cap and had to spend them before I could earn anymore. Then I reforged all my pieces to mastery. Exchanged crit for mastery on all pieces with crit, and on all pieces without crit I exchanged spirit for mastery.

Should I be doing this, going for mastery, or some other stat? Is crit actually valuable enough to reforge to or is it ok to drop crit? Assuming 10 man raid? I know crit has been basically crap for resto druids in the past, but all my hots can crit now. (btw 3xstack lifebloom bloom crits for 25k outside of tree form... delicious!). I already have 22% haste from gear, so I didn't really know if more would be necessary.

And efflorescence, can we say awesome graphic? So much fun.
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Lucrece
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Lucrece » Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:56 am UTC

LOL, the hotfixed feral damage is so funny. I can burn people down so bad since mastery for ferals is so damned good.

At 85 my rake is doing 6k ticks and my rip 7.5k. Crits get crazy.


Now they just need to fix Ferocious Bite because it still sucks and I'd like to use it often. Make FB ignore 100% armor on targets with Faerie Fire, bam we have an answer to a finisher that's good on plate targets while rip is up. Then Shred and Ravage could get a talent that allows some armor bypass (be it full or partial).

Oh, and actual cat survivability because it still sucks.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:06 am UTC

meatyochre wrote:Any thoughts on mastery vs crit vs spirit vs haste for resto druids now? And healing style/rotation? I was having trouble tracking hots in the one heroic I've run, since grid died, and I'd like to get back on track by raid time on Saturday. Will probably try out vuhdo later tonight.

Resto druid mana regen is out of this world so I figured I didn't really need the spirit. I bought up 4 pieces of t10 since I was over the 4k justice points cap and had to spend them before I could earn anymore. Then I reforged all my pieces to mastery. Exchanged crit for mastery on all pieces with crit, and on all pieces without crit I exchanged spirit for mastery.

Should I be doing this, going for mastery, or some other stat? Is crit actually valuable enough to reforge to or is it ok to drop crit? Assuming 10 man raid? I know crit has been basically crap for resto druids in the past, but all my hots can crit now. (btw 3xstack lifebloom bloom crits for 25k outside of tree form... delicious!). I already have 22% haste from gear, so I didn't really know if more would be necessary.

And efflorescence, can we say awesome graphic? So much fun.


There are breakpoints where you get an extra tick of your various HoTs. 1015 haste is a very attainable number, and is a breakpoint for Rejuv, and coincidentally just over a breakpoint for both Lifebloom and Wildgrowth. The next breakpoint for any spell is at 1250 haste, which is less attainable, and is only on Lifebloom. So basically you should be aiming for as close to 1015 haste as possible without going under. 22% is pretty far off (1015 is 30.9%), you could drop to 19% (623 rating) without dropping over any breakpoints, but I'd suggest getting haste on more pieces - you can get haste on 3/5 of the tier slots and every other slot, and you should. Also Crit/Haste is the best gear for us now, so you should swap to the Moonkin Idol if you haven't already.

In 10 mans, the thought is that Mastery is better than Crit since you'll generally have Rejuvs on most of the raid. In 25 mans the thought is that Crit is better than mastery, since half the raid will be without hots (at least), though if you are primarily tank healing Mastery probably still wins out. But crit is WAAY better than it used to be for us. Haste is still best, but the situation has gone from "85% of my healing can't crit, and the other 15% has 50% crit naturally" to "all my stuff can crit and there is very little base crit on any of it", so it's drastically improved. I think the breakeven point for Crit vs Mastery is somewhere around 40% of your heals being applied to HoT'd targets.

So my gearing approach is to reforge haste onto any piece that doesn't have it, reforge spirit to crit if haste is present (do nothing to haste/crit pieces), and gem up to 1015 haste, with the rest being pure intellect. If you are primarily doing 10s, you can reforge haste whenever you can, mastery otherwise (and you'll now be reforging every piece since no pieces currently have mastery). You'll still gem to 1015 haste and intellect after though.

As for style, Swiftmend like mad, keep LB on tank, Rejuv and Wildgrowth. In situations where you would have nourished before, use Regrowth. Nourish/Healing Touch are pretty useless right now (though will probably be more useful in the slower/more mana conscious environment of Cata)
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby meatyochre » Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:15 am UTC

mike-l wrote:
meatyochre wrote:Any thoughts on mastery vs crit vs spirit vs haste for resto druids now? And healing style/rotation? I was having trouble tracking hots in the one heroic I've run, since grid died, and I'd like to get back on track by raid time on Saturday. Will probably try out vuhdo later tonight.

Resto druid mana regen is out of this world so I figured I didn't really need the spirit. I bought up 4 pieces of t10 since I was over the 4k justice points cap and had to spend them before I could earn anymore. Then I reforged all my pieces to mastery. Exchanged crit for mastery on all pieces with crit, and on all pieces without crit I exchanged spirit for mastery.

Should I be doing this, going for mastery, or some other stat? Is crit actually valuable enough to reforge to or is it ok to drop crit? Assuming 10 man raid? I know crit has been basically crap for resto druids in the past, but all my hots can crit now. (btw 3xstack lifebloom bloom crits for 25k outside of tree form... delicious!). I already have 22% haste from gear, so I didn't really know if more would be necessary.

And efflorescence, can we say awesome graphic? So much fun.


There are breakpoints where you get an extra tick of your various HoTs. 1015 haste is a very attainable number, and is a breakpoint for Rejuv, and coincidentally just over a breakpoint for both Lifebloom and Wildgrowth. The next breakpoint for any spell is at 1250 haste, which is less attainable, and is only on Lifebloom. So basically you should be aiming for as close to 1015 haste as possible without going under. 22% is pretty far off (1015 is 30.9%), you could drop to 19% (623 rating) without dropping over any breakpoints, but I'd suggest getting haste on more pieces - you can get haste on 3/5 of the tier slots and every other slot, and you should.

In 10 mans, the thought is that Mastery is better than Crit since you'll generally have Rejuvs on most of the raid. In 25 mans the thought is that Crit is better than mastery, since half the raid will be without hots (at least), though if you are primarily tank healing Mastery probably still wins out.

So my gearing approach is to reforge haste onto any piece that doesn't have it, reforge spirit to crit if haste is present (do nothing to haste/crit pieces), and gem up to 1015 haste, with the rest being pure intellect.

As for style, Swiftmend like mad, keep LB on tank, Rejuv and Wildgrowth. In situations where you would have nourished before, use Regrowth. Nourish/Healing Touch are pretty useless right now (though will probably be more useful in the slower/more mana conscious environment of Cata)

Thank you, very helpful! Your advice is in line with the few other resources I'm able to view from work (we have a pretty aggressive fun-filter :( ). I'm also in agreement about the usefulness of nourish/HT, for the moment. It is nice that nourish casts decrease the cooldown of swiftmend (I think that's right), but it makes more sense to cast 2 rejuvs in the same time period. And, with my infinite mana, I might spend time between trash pulls spamming healing touch to get NS closer to ready again (since HT decreases the NS cd by 5s every cast).

I see mastery being less useful than, say, crit now... because mastery only comes into play when there are 2+ hots on the same target, yes? Or if you're direct healing someone who already has 1 hot?
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby WarDaft » Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:42 am UTC

Huh. It seems the patch that "adjusted some coefficients" buffed HoW so much that it's now actually better than a 3 point TV. As in, it hits as hard, but crits almost every time.

In PvE, it now trumps any other ability below 20%, and in PvP, well, Avenging Wrath still lets you cast it on people with up to 100% health. I've from not wanting to PvP at all with my paladin cata, to wondering how long I'll get to solo healers before they nerf it. It's not that it's more than anyone else can hit for - it isn't - it's just that people have developed very fast reflexes when calling for paladin nerfs.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Vapour » Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:06 am UTC

Boomkin raiding is great fun now. I'm no longer at the mercy of RnG, which hates me.

LOVE the new starsurge spell. A lot of instant 23k crits and even saw a 31k on Fester. Not sure what they'll be like after this hotfix nerf, but shouldn't be too bad. I hope

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:46 pm UTC

I decided to give my warlock a go last night (he's still leveling, at 74 now). Spec'd into Destro for the first time, and started learning what to do on a target dummy before actually getting into a random. Holy Hell, the new Soul Shard and Soul Fire mechanics are fun. Being able to fire off instant Soul Fires? So delightful!

Still getting income from Inscription, but not as much. Slowly dwindling.

And I guess I'm just not into all the new changes we've got on stats. I reforged on my spriest, but mostly just to toy with it and Mastery. I don't plan on touching my druid (mainly because I love spirit, and I'd feel dirty getting rid of it). Of course, I'm not raiding right now anyway, and don't plan to til Cata, so it's not a big deal to me.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Lucrece » Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:32 am UTC

God, the non-beta retards whining about their 80 soon to be outdated content and how their e-peens hurt because somebody beat them on the meters piss me the fuck off.

There they went and had to halve Insect Swarm's damage, when moonkins at 85 in beta are doing just as well as any other caster. But noooooo, gotta make sure those warlocks and mages stay 1-2k DPS ahead of the damn hybrids despite the fact that they got as much raid or greater utility now. 85 balancing be damned.


With that said, the feral hotfix is delicious. 4.6k rake noncrit ticks and 5.7k rip ticks at 85 are YUMMY~

Shred and ferocious bite and mangle are still shit though and don't hit above a Rip tick. 4600 mangles at 85, 5600 shreds, 6214 5 cp FB's.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Kag » Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:13 am UTC

Got a chance to try out the new Shaman healing in ICC 25 tonight. I was able to keep up with our Druids without too much trouble. Mana is so abundant I rarely find a reason to cast Healing Wave, so the flow of healing is almost identical, except that I'm more inclined to burn Riptide just to improve Chain Heal. I like the new Mana Tide Totem. I'm not really sure what to think of the mastery.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:48 am UTC

Yeah, Lucrece, the amount of people saying they don't know how to do anything is really funny. People have been asking me how to spec; I think it's funny, because the tree's got simpler.

Again, Chakra's are amazing. Can't wait for Evangelism and Archangel.

Fulmination is a fantastic quirk; I'm really glad something happened with lightening shield. I'm curious to see how the Unleash Weapon bit works out too. Love the graphic for earthquake
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Lucrece » Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:35 am UTC

So, today we tested 2 raid bosses as a dev-sponsored event. The first was somewhat of a Blood Council except golems. The second was Wyrmbreaker, a big bad Ettin (new gigantoid race in Cataclysm).


All I can say is, shit, they really cranked up the difficulty of raid encounters. They are nuanced, hectic, and you just have to pay attention all the time, a single mistake will screw you up bad. DPS requirements are as stringent as ever.


Did I mention this was 10man normal? Still brutal.

Oh, and trash is back, and you gotta CC and pull no more than 3-4 for risk of wiping.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Babam » Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:53 am UTC

Lucrece wrote:So, today we tested 2 raid bosses as a dev-sponsored event. The first was somewhat of a Blood Council except golems. The second was Wyrmbreaker, a big bad Ettin (new gigantoid race in Cataclysm).


All I can say is, shit, they really cranked up the difficulty of raid encounters. They are nuanced, hectic, and you just have to pay attention all the time, a single mistake will screw you up bad. DPS requirements are as stringent as ever.


Did I mention this was 10man normal? Still brutal.

Oh, and trash is back, and you gotta CC and pull no more than 3-4 for risk of wiping.

Music... to my ears. This is just glorious :D
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Menacing Spike » Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:41 am UTC

So, my impressions on new demonology.

1) The AOE damage is fucking insane. On the last batch of the heroic HOR chase, I did 65% of the group's dps, and that was without the infernal, and the others were better geared.
Meta means crazily increased damage, and immolation aura, ticking very hard in a short AOE around the warlock. Shadowflame hits rather hard, and if glyphed means you can grind extremely large amounts of mobs. Hellfire while moving is sweet and hurts like a truck. And above all, the felguard can now spin like a ballerina. While he looks very very ridiculous, he hits once per second in an aoe around him for HEAVY damage. Add in hand of guldan's 10% crit and you are garanteed to slice your ennemies into mincemeat.
Demon leap is a powerful aoe stun, that allows you to quickly close the distance for hellfire and immo aura.
And the infernal, well, is the infernal.

2) Hellfire is bugged: it flags you for pvp and makes stormwind guards bark. This is kind of fun, actually.
/y This fire in my skin, is tuuurning me to sin!

3) You can't hellfire while mounted :(.

4) In battlegrounds, you will DIE. People HATE you, you WILL get focus fired, and you will go down very fast. All the damage reduction talents are gone. Yes, gone. You only have soul link and the 600% demon armor. That won't get you very far. And if demon form is on cooldown, you won't be able to do shit. Only useful instant casts are glyphed shadowflame and death coil. This means you will get kicked into oblivion by swarms of delighted rogues. Even if you do manage to retake the initiative with axe toss, they can just CloS, berserker rage, etc and then you are doomed, friend. The best you can do is try to stick a curse of doom on that lone rogue that just ganked you, as a parting "screw you". He will be forced out of stealth every 15 seconds by pretty high damage, and there is a good chance an imp will spawn and chew his ankles. Imp does about 400 dps. But 5 hp :(.
You DO have more hp than before but that won't be enough.

5) Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but single target is pretty meh compared to before, especially at the execution phase. Molten core doesn't apply to soul fire anymore, and that's a big downer.

6) Hotkey that soulshatter button. You deal a ton of damage in melee range. Do the math.

7) Not having to use soulshards anymore is a huge plus. Now you have no reason not to keep you healthstone up at all times.

8) With glyphed fear you have an useful CC; too bad all the recent content is full of undead.

9) Soul harvest is pretty useless as a heal; healers always threw me HoTs before it could take effect. Same goes with the fel armor's healing; it's only useful if you want to dick around with perma hellfire in goldshire.

10) Spamming the hellfire button sends more waves, but destroys your mana pool. This can still be useful when your felguard is in ballerina mode: when he crits, mana feed grants you mana, and he will crit. Ooooh, yes he will.

11) Fucking rogues!

12) The others demons are actually useful. Healer attacked by two mobs and tank looking at buttlerflies? Soulburn in a voidwalker, shield yourself, and spam searing pain on a mob while the VW aggroes the other one. Then funnel him from times to times. Healer is now free to keep you and the tank alive, hopefully. Imp can dispel stuff on you allies, the dog can spell lock and dispel ennemies, and the succubus sucks.

13) Felguard is very very squishy. He deals damages like crazy, but whenever he gets aggro, he dies in a few hits. Now you actually have to tank things with the tank pet. Consequently, soloing things is a lot slower.
However, health funnel seems to heal far more than before. Ennemies such as blood lord manokir or heroic TBC mobs will become even easier.

14) Soulstones have a huge CD now, and don't even seem to work. Twice a healer died with soulstone on, twice he didn't have the prompt.

15) Bane of doom is fun in pve, but trash dies too fast for it to tick, and with the amount of aoe bosses throw around, the imps won't last. BOD still deals amazingly high damage, especially in movement heavy fights.

16) I died to ick and crick for the first time ever. It was not a good idea to put rocket boots and demon circle teleport on the same macro. Don't do that.

17) When you are hellfiring and jumping around in glee, mind the +10 yards talent. It hits much farther now, and can aggro ennemies and bring a wipe should you bounce happily to a pack.


And anyone got a link for information about haste rating and immolate? I'm wondering how much haste is needed for how many ticks...

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:02 pm UTC

Babam wrote:Music... to my ears. This is just glorious :D


I'm quite sure they'll nerf the non-heroic stuff into the ground before they release it. Maybe the heroic stuff will be decently challenging but I have my doubts. Though I don't doubt the last boss of the instance on heroic will be way overtuned compared to the rest. It seems to be the best compromise they can get away with lately. Make the instance easy enough for most people to clear. Then make the heroic instance harder but still clearable by a good % of people. Then make the last boss ridiculously difficult to make it seem like you aren't giving into the whining and making everything noob friendly.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Vapour » Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:34 pm UTC

Intro cinematic Was only a matter of time until it found its way here.

Its pretty epic.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:28 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
Babam wrote:Music... to my ears. This is just glorious :D


I'm quite sure they'll nerf the non-heroic stuff into the ground before they release it. Maybe the heroic stuff will be decently challenging but I have my doubts. Though I don't doubt the last boss of the instance on heroic will be way overtuned compared to the rest. It seems to be the best compromise they can get away with lately. Make the instance easy enough for most people to clear. Then make the heroic instance harder but still clearable by a good % of people. Then make the last boss ridiculously difficult to make it seem like you aren't giving into the whining and making everything noob friendly.


Really, how different is that model than TBC? Aside from Illidan who, if you could beat all the bosses before him you were probably only a few weeks away from a kill, Kael, Vashj and Archimonde (and Prince and Mag for that matter) were MUCH harder than any of the bosses coming before them. I only got to Twins in Sunwell, but my understanding was that after Mu'ru was nerfed, Kil'jaeden was by far the hardest boss in the instance.

The only real difference with WotLK was the existence of normal mode. Heroic got pretty similar exposure to TBC raids. Most heroic bosses are still at less than 12% kills, which is admittedly a bunch higher than Sunwell bosses were, but it's still a big minority. And the harder bosses are still at 5-6%, pretty well inline with Sunwell just before 3.0 hit.

Anyway, I hope they keep the heroic mode difficult, but as long as the fights are interesting I'll be happy. And I think they've been making really good bosses lately so I'm confident that they will be.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Lucrece » Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:44 pm UTC

I dislike the cinematic.

I always liked the Vanilla and TBC ones better because they showed the races interacting, whereas WotLK and Cataclysm just focus on the Big Bad and all chaos he brings.


Sure, Deathwing looks neat, but I would've liked to see more than just his monologue and him flapping his wings around.


Back to raids, forget about the game ever returning to vanilla/TBC's model of hardcore pandering. This is a game for noobs, because most people who play-- and pay for its development-- do not have the ability for time investment that high end raiders do.

I don't think the raids will be nerfed much, but if you think they will make raids so only people raiding 3-4 times a week for 6+ hours get to see the story, you are delusional. Blocking a majority of the game population from seeing the story unravel would be a major dick move, and it would only make sense to make normal mode eventually doable by most people who put in some effort, even if they're mediocre players.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:31 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:Really, how different is that model than TBC? Aside from Illidan who, if you could beat all the bosses before him you were probably only a few weeks away from a kill, Kael, Vashj and Archimonde (and Prince and Mag for that matter) were MUCH harder than any of the bosses coming before them. I only got to Twins in Sunwell, but my understanding was that after Mu'ru was nerfed, Kil'jaeden was by far the hardest boss in the instance.


The model is different because Blizz (at least at first in TBC) didn't make the raids accessible to everyone. Gruul was a massive cockblock and so was Mag, both of which initially prevented access to SSC and TK. The fact that the end bosses were difficult mattered because they hindered further progression. My point was that the last bosses on heroic in Wrath have all been massively overtuned compared to the rest of the instances (Anub'arak and HLK, I guess Halion too but he's just one boss). The rest of the instances are pretty damn simple especially with consistent nerfs. Even top end guilds hit delays in beating the hard modes in Ulduar, whereas they waltzed through ICC until HLK. I don't particularly like this and frankly the heroic difficulty should be the same "hardcore only" type of instance that original and BC had. The people who argue they want to see content really want to be able to get the same top end STUFF as people who are better than them. Otherwise there wouldn't be cries of "nerf heroic X" because clearly they've already seen the content. Hell they even have the same gear now (looks wise) its just the numbers are different.

I have no qualms about normal mode being the mode where everyone can see the story and fights. It does bother me that there are constant nerfs to the heroic modes (like the use of the ICC buff) so that everyone can see all THESE fights as well. My guild probably wouldn't have killed Sindragosa or Putricide on heroic with the buff (or it would have taken a lot longer). I don't think people should be entitled to see these heroic bosses die though. The issue is that normal is so easy so people run out of content and then get blocked by the much harder heroics. There needs to be a more linear approach to difficulty so that you can keep the hard fights but give other people enough content to not get bored with.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby JudeMorrigan » Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:05 pm UTC

Chen wrote:The people who argue they want to see content really want to be able to get the same top end STUFF as people who are better than them. Otherwise there wouldn't be cries of "nerf heroic X" because clearly they've already seen the content.


In fairness, the members of the group of people who call for nerfs don't necessarily represent the entirety of the group of people who want to see the content. I, for one, have never done any heroic ICC other than lootship (I'm in a small guild that only raids once a week at most, and the raids are too short in duration for us to get past Putricide), and I'm perfectly ok with that.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:19 pm UTC

JudeMorrigan wrote:In fairness, the members of the group of people who call for nerfs don't necessarily represent the entirety of the group of people who want to see the content. I, for one, have never done any heroic ICC other than lootship (I'm in a small guild that only raids once a week at most, and the raids are too short in duration for us to get past Putricide), and I'm perfectly ok with that.


You're right I need to clarify what I meant. Its the people who use the "everyone should see content" argument when arguing for nerfs to heroic content who are just using that meme as a way to try and let them get the same stuff people, who are capable of doing said heroic content sans nerfs, are getting.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:31 pm UTC

I see your point Chen, but at the same time, I don't see an issue with nerfing heroic content. I like the "Normal is for everyone to work through, heroic is for those after a challenge" but even still, it's not like the heroic nerf of ICC made it so everyone was going through that content. Doesn't Blizzard have a precedent of altering content difficulty until they feel it's at the right levels anyway? I see the ICC buff as being that. Granted, the ICC buff probably did take it a little too far on Heroic. My guild was downing content that we really should not have been able to with our raid team. I swear, with one of our members, it was like we were 9-manning heroic bosses.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:21 pm UTC

ProZac wrote:I see your point Chen, but at the same time, I don't see an issue with nerfing heroic content. I like the "Normal is for everyone to work through, heroic is for those after a challenge" but even still, it's not like the heroic nerf of ICC made it so everyone was going through that content. Doesn't Blizzard have a precedent of altering content difficulty until they feel it's at the right levels anyway? I see the ICC buff as being that. Granted, the ICC buff probably did take it a little too far on Heroic. My guild was downing content that we really should not have been able to with our raid team. I swear, with one of our members, it was like we were 9-manning heroic bosses.


Really you can't cater to the extreme low or high end. They're going to either always fail or always beat the encounters (respectively) anyways. The key is to make there be a decent progression path that lets the majority of players just barely clear it by the time the next content cycle is released. This way those who are a bit behind will just stay a bit behind but always have stuff to do. Those who are a bit ahead will gear up a bit more but probably not get too bored.

What they've done though is make everyone able to clear normal mode with few problems. Then hit a massive brick wall on heroic mode. I mean in ToC heroic beasts was a monster encounter for people fresh out of regular mode ToC. Similarly for ICC, though at least here you could do Morrowgar and Lootship on hard (maybe Rotface) and then get rolled by the rest of the encounters. The jump from Lich King to the lower end Heroic encounters should not be as big as they are. That or you just make heroic the difficulty that is for your hardcore people and make normal have a bit more of a learning curve and difficulty curve so that people don't get bored by it like they do now.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:36 pm UTC

Chen wrote:I have no qualms about normal mode being the mode where everyone can see the story and fights. It does bother me that there are constant nerfs to the heroic modes (like the use of the ICC buff) so that everyone can see all THESE fights as well. My guild probably wouldn't have killed Sindragosa or Putricide on heroic with the buff (or it would have taken a lot longer). I don't think people should be entitled to see these heroic bosses die though. The issue is that normal is so easy so people run out of content and then get blocked by the much harder heroics. There needs to be a more linear approach to difficulty so that you can keep the hard fights but give other people enough content to not get bored with.


I generally agree with this. I think 30% is way too drastic. You simply can't have a fight that's reasonable at 0% and not have broken mechanics at 30%. I really think the buff should have stopped at 10. But still, the vast majority of people aren't even trying hard modes (except for gunship obviously), and only 1/7th of guilds have killed LK even on normal. (and aside from Lootship, Marrowgar and Rotface, fewer people have killed any given heroic boss).

And while I do appreciate the idea of needing to kill Tier X to get access to Tier X+1, it also caused a whole lot of hassle trying to get a raid together to go back and do Kael/Vashj to key new recruits/rerolls for MH. I really don't think we've lost much letting people jump into current content right away.

As for delays in Ulduar, a) the only hard modes that weren't done in week 1 were Mimiron (week 3) and XT (week 6), and people weren't in full Ulduar normal gear including tier bonuses, whereas ICC all the top guilds were decked out in 264 with everyone having their set bonus. Plus aside from PP, there were very few substantial mechanic changes, mostly just existing mechanics becoming more deadly, so everyone had months of experience with the bosses.

Chen wrote:The jump from Lich King to the lower end Heroic encounters should not be as big as they are.


Huh? Almost everyone who has killed LK has killed at least: Marrowgar, Lootship, Rotface, Fester, Council, BQL, Dreamwalker. And DBS and LDW aren't that far behind (at about 75-80% of the number of people who've killed LK) The only bosses that are a real big step up in difficulty are Sind and PP (though admittedly before the buff got so high DBS and LDW were quite hard too, but the buff has pretty much trivialized the mechanics on both those fights). I know my guild killed 6 bosses the first week after getting LK down, and I think that is a pretty common experience. Now, LK himself is a huge step up from the rest of the normal modes. I know lots of guilds pulled him upwards of 100 times before downing him, and for the guilds I know (these are all guilds that got LK before the buffs started), Sind/PP were more on the order of 15-30 pulls.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby JudeMorrigan » Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:47 pm UTC

I don't think the idea behind the buff was a terrible one, but if they try something similar in future content, it should be stretched out more so that it better coincides with future content hitting. If the buff hit 30% a month before Cata hit, would anyone really care if it kind of borked the fight mechanics? Well, ok, this is the internet. Of course people would. You understand what I'm saying though, I'm sure.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:51 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:I generally agree with this. I think 30% is way too drastic. You simply can't have a fight that's reasonable at 0% and not have broken mechanics at 30%. I really think the buff should have stopped at 10. But still, the vast majority of people aren't even trying hard modes (except for gunship obviously), and only 1/7th of guilds have killed LK even on normal. (and aside from Lootship, Marrowgar and Rotface, fewer people have killed any given heroic boss).


Can't access the number of guilds here from work, but how many have killed everything EXCEPT LK? Im going to wager its quite a lot higher than the 1/7 figure mainly because LK (even on normal) is a pretty difficult fight, comparatively.

And while I do appreciate the idea of needing to kill Tier X to get access to Tier X+1, it also caused a whole lot of hassle trying to get a raid together to go back and do Kael/Vashj to key new recruits/rerolls for MH. I really don't think we've lost much letting people jump into current content right away.


Oh I agree with this. I wasn't saying attunements were a good thing. They were a pain in the ass. I could see, with the new guild system, ensuring that a guild was attuned to a particular instance though. It could solve the logistics issues while making it so you don't just skip instances. Still for reformed guilds and such there could be issues and exploits, so its probably just not necessary.

As for delays in Ulduar, a) the only hard modes that weren't done in week 1 were Mimiron (week 3) and XT (week 6), and people weren't in full Ulduar normal gear including tier bonuses, whereas ICC all the top guilds were decked out in 264 with everyone having their set bonus. Plus aside from PP, there were very few substantial mechanic changes, mostly just existing mechanics becoming more deadly, so everyone had months of experience with the bosses.


Hmm perhaps I misjudged the timings for Ulduar then. It seemed like most hard modes took some time to be beaten I thought, since you could access them all right away. I really didn't think Freya was killed that early.

Huh? Almost everyone who has killed LK has killed at least: Marrowgar, Lootship, Rotface, Fester, Council, BQL, Dreamwalker. And DBS and LDW aren't that far behind (at about 75-80% of the number of people who've killed LK) The only bosses that are a real big step up in difficulty are Sind and PP (though admittedly before the buff got so high DBS and LDW were quite hard too, but the buff has pretty much trivialized the mechanics on both those fights). I know my guild killed 6 bosses the first week after getting LK down, and I think that is a pretty common experience. Now, LK himself is a huge step up from the rest of the normal modes. I know lots of guilds pulled him upwards of 100 times before downing him, and for the guilds I know (these are all guilds that got LK before the buffs started), Sind/PP were more on the order of 15-30 pulls.


I meant initially (no buff/5% buff). Jumping from LK to heroic Deathwhisper or Saurfang was not a simple thing. I'll grant Marrowgar, lootship and Rotface were all fairly doable (probably even easier than regular lich king actually). Most of the others were initially very tough. With the 5% buff Fester was a nightmare (not to mention you didn't get a visual indication of where the malleable goo was going land) and so were Deathwhisper and Saurfang. Putricide/Sindragosa were absurdly difficult at low % buffs. Blood Queen was also very tight on the timer at first. Thing is once the buff jumped to 10% a ton of these super strict timers just disappeared and fights became a joke. I mean Fester and Blood queen, without the tight dps aspect have practically no difficult mechanics.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:08 pm UTC

Chen wrote:Can't access the number of guilds here from work, but how many have killed everything EXCEPT LK? Im going to wager its quite a lot higher than the 1/7 figure mainly because LK (even on normal) is a pretty difficult fight, comparatively.

Yeah, pretty much double for everything but Sind + LK. Sind seems to still be a pretty big cockblock. Probably because the buff neutralizes mechanics more on LK than it does on Sind (health buffs really help with Infest and DPS buffs makes valks LOLeasy, while with sind you still have to clear your stacks if your guild is at the point where they're still working on her)

I could see, with the new guild system, ensuring that a guild was attuned to a particular instance though.

I like this idea. And really, with a reformed guild, you should waltz through the attunements. It was just a pain going back for 1-2 people every month or two.

I meant initially (no buff/5% buff). Jumping from LK to heroic Deathwhisper or Saurfang was not a simple thing. I'll grant Marrowgar, lootship and Rotface were all fairly doable (probably even easier than regular lich king actually). Most of the others were initially very tough. With the 5% buff Fester was a nightmare (not to mention you didn't get a visual indication of where the malleable goo was going land) and so were Deathwhisper and Saurfang. Putricide/Sindragosa were absurdly difficult at low % buffs. Blood Queen was also very tight on the timer at first. Thing is once the buff jumped to 10% a ton of these super strict timers just disappeared and fights became a joke. I mean Fester and Blood queen, without the tight dps aspect have practically no difficult mechanics.

Yeah, I'll pretty much agree with that. We got the 5% buff the week after we killed LK, and we did Marrow, Lootship, Rotface, Fester (with a number of wipes), Council, and BQL (with a few wipes... maybe 5?). I think we managed to do DBS at 5%, but it took a few weeks. I know we didn't do LDW til 10, or maybe even 15. That's admittedly a really hard fight, but now that ghost damage is healable and adds die so fast you get way more time on the boss, it's pretty easy. But even at 0%, at least 5 bosses were easily accessible to anyone who could kill LK - Marrow, Gunship, Rotface, Council, Dreamwalker. And BQL was a definite possibility.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby meatyochre » Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:05 am UTC

ANNNND the dreaded hallow's end is upon us. Where I anticipate going yet another year without obtaining either a hallowed helm or a sinister squashling (despite around-the-clock trick-or-treating), and being deprived of my violet drake due to the evil impassivity that is RNG.

In fact, the chance to get one this year is EVEN LOWER THAN LAST! HH doesn't drop them anymore, there're only two chances a day from the daily bag and from putting out fires, in addition to trick-or-treating once an hour. So I can't even bribe anyone into helping me farm it; it can't BE farmed.

Why they removed or altered other RNG-based holiday achievements from their respective metas, and won't touch this one, I don't fking understand. I am so furious because I am confident I won't get it. I won't let myself hope or expect.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Dobblesworth » Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:11 am UTC

I think the RNG under the new boss daily system isn't too weighted. Over Brewfest, running Direbrew close-to every day of the event, my hunter ended up with both mounts by the end, with one even showing up as a duplicate drop in the bags. And I think the drop rate for the slightly-more-necessary HH/SS drops from Horseman will be slightly higher over the event than the mounts.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby meatyochre » Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:29 am UTC

Dobblesworth wrote:I think the RNG under the new boss daily system isn't too weighted. Over Brewfest, running Direbrew close-to every day of the event, my hunter ended up with both mounts by the end, with one even showing up as a duplicate drop in the bags. And I think the drop rate for the slightly-more-necessary HH/SS drops from Horseman will be slightly higher over the event than the mounts.

I read on wowhead that the pet has, I believe, a 7% drop rate. Not sure about the helm. Over what... 14 days? I'm no great shakes at stats, but it leaves a non-zero chance that you can end up with only one of the items, or possibly neither, over that period. It only has a 1% chance from the treat bags, I believe.

The plural of anecdote is not data. My main ran brewfest every single day and didn't see a single mount in her bag... thankfully, it wasn't required for that meta-chieve. But this achievement is like requiring you to get both mounts. A double dose of RNG is going to cause massive collective heart palpitations and should really be fixed.

I wish I could be more optimistic about this. But given that other people didn't get the achievement last year, when it was farmable last year, I'm not holding my breath.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:50 pm UTC

The little pumpkin vanity pet? I'm pretty sure I got that in the first Trick or Treat thing I ever grabbed. I know it was my first vanity pet, as I got it when I was still leveling my first character. I swear I've been in groups for HH where it dropped multiple times, and it got passed on as everyone already had it. Seems like it shouldn't be that hard to get, and it's odd Blizzard would leave just one RNG achievement in. RNG sucks (even though it was being quite kind to me last night).

I decided to give a heroic a try last night with a guild healer. Haven't been doing these recently, but I wanted to try out DK tanking. I thought the first pull took a little while, so I checked out recount. I was top dps at 2k. Below me we had a 1.8k boomkin, a 1.5k warrior, and a ret pally struggling to break 1k. After 3 pulls, healer and I decided we didn't want to trudge through HoL with this group and dropped. Sad part is I had just finished a dungeon with my 74 warlock where I averaged 1.9k dps and the healer on his 74 warrior did 1.4k. Grrrr, stupid people.

Plan on making an adventure back into Ulduar for fun this weekend. Have a few of my new guildies wanting to go. Some of them never managed to kill Yogg, which is one reason for the trip. It's also my favorite fight this expac. We might take a stop by Mimiron to try Firefighter, as no one has seen Algalon and it's the only Hard mode we never completed.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:36 pm UTC

meatyochre wrote:I read on wowhead that the pet has, I believe, a 7% drop rate. Not sure about the helm. Over what... 14 days? I'm no great shakes at stats, but it leaves a non-zero chance that you can end up with only one of the items, or possibly neither, over that period. It only has a 1% chance from the treat bags, I believe.


Can't check the rates from here but the drop rate was a lot higher than 1% last year from the bags. It was only from the HH at first but then people were complaining and they added them to the bags too and I recall the rate was pretty high. Consistently doing the treat runs over a couple of days should almost ensure you get them. At a 5% chance getting 5 treat bags per day leaves you at ~2% chance to not get them. If its a 10% chance you only need 3 treat bags per day to bring it to ~1% chance to not get them.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Lucrece » Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:29 pm UTC

Oh me yarm new beta build has a MOONKIN HATCHLING companion pet. My druid MUST have it for matching purposes~

Oh, and feral is delicious at 85. 33k ferocious bite crits on 2800 resilience folk and 24k ravage crits. 4.7k ticks on rake, 5.7k ticks on rip. Good damage.


Nothing compares to warriors at the moment, though. They're dealing 50k damage in one intercept stun, they're gonna get nerfed hard.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby meatyochre » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:44 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
meatyochre wrote:I read on wowhead that the pet has, I believe, a 7% drop rate. Not sure about the helm. Over what... 14 days? I'm no great shakes at stats, but it leaves a non-zero chance that you can end up with only one of the items, or possibly neither, over that period. It only has a 1% chance from the treat bags, I believe.


Can't check the rates from here but the drop rate was a lot higher than 1% last year from the bags. It was only from the HH at first but then people were complaining and they added them to the bags too and I recall the rate was pretty high. Consistently doing the treat runs over a couple of days should almost ensure you get them. At a 5% chance getting 5 treat bags per day leaves you at ~2% chance to not get them. If its a 10% chance you only need 3 treat bags per day to bring it to ~1% chance to not get them.

Well I'm doing between 6 and 7 bags on weekdays (cause I work full time :( ) and every hour on weekends. I've done the HH event twice and trick or treated many times since the event began, and still neither the helm or the pet are in my possession.

grumble grumble.

As I said, there are people who are doing these things religiously who've still been shafted two years in a row... because RNG is RNG (for every person who doesn't get either one despite trying their very hardest, there's at least one person who got all the items the one time they bothered to queue for HH). I did all of them regularly and got shafted last year. I certainly hope it doesn't happen again this year.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Midnight » Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:12 am UTC

mike-l wrote:
As for delays in Ulduar, a) the only hard modes that weren't done in week 1 were Mimiron (week 3) and XT (week 6), and people weren't in full Ulduar normal gear including tier bonuses, whereas ICC all the top guilds were decked out in 264 with everyone having their set bonus.

This is provably not true. XT was one of the easiest hardmodes once everything was properly tuned. The first few weeks of ulduar don't really count, cause Ignis' trash was harder than the boss himself. Some mobs you just could not kill unless you had all of the best gear.
Even after everything worked itself, Yogg+0 took months upon months. Far longer than Mimiron (or Algalon)
uhhhh fuck.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:07 am UTC

Midnight wrote:
mike-l wrote:
As for delays in Ulduar, a) the only hard modes that weren't done in week 1 were Mimiron (week 3) and XT (week 6), and people weren't in full Ulduar normal gear including tier bonuses, whereas ICC all the top guilds were decked out in 264 with everyone having their set bonus.

This is provably not true. XT was one of the easiest hardmodes once everything was properly tuned. The first few weeks of ulduar don't really count, cause Ignis' trash was harder than the boss himself. Some mobs you just could not kill unless you had all of the best gear.
Even after everything worked itself, Yogg+0 took months upon months. Far longer than Mimiron (or Algalon)


Sorry, you're right. Actual world first dates are not true at all. It's your personal experience that's the real measure of how long Ulduar took. Feel free to post a link from wowprogress or mmo-champ showing XT dying before week 6, Mim dying before week 3, or any hard mode being done after week 1 besides these two and Yogg/Algalon.

The list I was going from didn't include Yogg+1, so I'll add that here, it was week 3 as well.

Yogg+0 took til week 13. H LK without the buff was week 21 for comparison.
Algalon was killed week 6 after being unlocked, H LK was week 7
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