WoWzers!

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Midnight
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Midnight » Fri May 06, 2011 5:14 am UTC

So you're telling me every fight was "dps" cause you were a dps?
Every fight for me was "tank" cause I was a tank.
That... this... aight, look, gross oversimplification doesn't solve too much, na meen.



I kinda hate running ZG in a PuG though. Also, there's this one dude that sometimes tanks in my guild and he's shitty, and I don't know how to say "You should let me tank cause you're kinda shitty"
uhhhh fuck.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Fri May 06, 2011 5:34 am UTC

It was in reply to:
Lostdreams wrote:Raiding is only hard if you get stuck with people that can't follow directions. DPS is a joke. Don't stand in shit, pew pew when x does y, move when a does x, win.


Which is nothing at all new. If anything, pew pew is way more complicated now (not that it's hard, but at least you press more than one button), and the things you need to move for are much more common. Many fights in Vanilla and TBC involved zero movement and zero target switching, which is never the case anymore.
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WarDaft
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby WarDaft » Fri May 06, 2011 7:25 am UTC

mike-l wrote:Which is nothing at all new. If anything, pew pew is way more complicated now (not that it's hard, but at least you press more than one button), and the things you need to move for are much more common. Many fights in Vanilla and TBC involved zero movement and zero target switching, which is never the case anymore.


Indeed. I tried raiding in Vanilla. My task was to set up a healing addon, /follow the lead healer, and hit the tilde key every few seconds. Yes, the later vanilla raids were harder (in that I'd probably have to hit the tilde key much more frequently) but I couldn't bear the former long enough to actually get to them.
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Lostdreams
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Lostdreams » Fri May 06, 2011 11:53 am UTC

The raiding portion of that should have been subsectioned out as it wasn't a downturn in difficulty of mechanics, it was more a disappointment for the promise of more difficult content that was tuned down to something you can half ass your way through in a couple tries as long as you have at least a 5 min attention span.

It seems like the only challenge left is in a few of the achievements but even those are getting nerfed.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Menacing Spike » Fri May 06, 2011 11:58 am UTC

When I last played Commander Springvale was a complete bitch, utterly undoable except by pulling him into the courtyard (or having the relevant classes or raid gear, I suppose).
Did they nerf him?

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Fri May 06, 2011 1:37 pm UTC

Midnight, I would recommend
Midnight wrote:"You should let me tank cause you're kinda shitty"
Granted, my guild we know who the better tanks are, and the not so great tanks will happily take a backseat in order to get a smoother run.

I'm getting sick of raiding, mainly due to the fact that a few people keep not showing up, we're frequently changing group and strategy, and it's taking way too long to down new bosses when it shouldn't be. I just need to punch some raiders in the face so they get their shit together.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Dobblesworth » Fri May 06, 2011 1:44 pm UTC

I don't think Springvale's been nerfed. Glancing at wowpedia he did get fiddled with in 4.0.6 to give him a double damage buff in the event of being kited outside his chamber. I'd guess it's only content decay in terms of players being better geared to meet the DPS requirements of the encounter, knowing where not to be standing and being savvy for target priority on his reinforcements.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Lucrece » Fri May 06, 2011 3:09 pm UTC

ProZac wrote:Midnight, I would recommend
Midnight wrote:"You should let me tank cause you're kinda shitty"
Granted, my guild we know who the better tanks are, and the not so great tanks will happily take a backseat in order to get a smoother run.

I'm getting sick of raiding, mainly due to the fact that a few people keep not showing up, we're frequently changing group and strategy, and it's taking way too long to down new bosses when it shouldn't be. I just need to punch some raiders in the face so they get their shit together.


This is the reason I just went on hiatus from the HM 25man I was taking place in.When we ran the 10man group, our progress was considerably faster, because attendance is simply a bitch for most non-top of the line, dedicated hardcore raiding 25mans, which are just so few. And I no longer have the time to support the playtime reqquired by hardcore raiding teams.

My 25man did 4 hours 4 days a week and it was straining me. Most competitive 25mans go as far as 6 hours 5 days a week, even the really competitive ones at 7 days a week.

10 mans are really the way to go for anyone who wants some progression with a reasonable time investment. 25mans require too much logistics and carrying deficient players.

One of the reason I hated raiding vs. arena is that in arena carrying players happens to a much lesser degree. Arena teams are rather selective.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Fri May 06, 2011 6:57 pm UTC

Lostdreams wrote:The raiding portion of that should have been subsectioned out as it wasn't a downturn in difficulty of mechanics, it was more a disappointment for the promise of more difficult content that was tuned down to something you can half ass your way through in a couple tries as long as you have at least a 5 min attention span.

It seems like the only challenge left is in a few of the achievements but even those are getting nerfed.


First off, what promise?

Secondly, I would say that this tier is easily on par with or exceeds any other raid tier in terms of difficulty with the exception of Sunwell. The ONLY easy heroic fight is Halfus, and he's comparable to BQL, Marrowgar or Rotface in terms of difficulty. It certainly blows Naxx or Kara or MC out of the water, which are the comparable raids in previous expansions.

Similarly the dungeons, in appropriate gear, are as hard or harder than any released before, with the exception of shadow labs, magisters and halls of reflection. 2/3 of those were end of expansion dungeons, and I would say that ZG is on par with them.

None of this is to say that anything is difficult. (Ok, maybe the last few heroic raid bosses are). Commander Springvale is probably the hardest heroic boss, but he was killable in full 329 gear (the minimum level to random queue), without cheesing him by pulling him to the courtyard. But with the exception of a couple bosses (C'thun, Kael, Vashj, Muru, H Anub, H LK, H Halion), nothing in this game has ever been hard.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Lostdreams » Fri May 06, 2011 8:32 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:When I last played Commander Springvale was a complete bitch, utterly undoable except by pulling him into the courtyard (or having the relevant classes or raid gear, I suppose).
Did they nerf him?


Springvale was one of the easier ones for us. We beat him in 333 gear by having a DPS in eack doorway pick up the adds before they got LoS and keep them in the hallways while the healer stood in the middle of the room and the tank and remaning DPS beat on springvale the entire time. As soon as the adds died the DPS move to springvale until just before the next wave, moving back to the doorway to repeat the cycle.

Siamat was our only hangup getting the drake as we did 3 then 2 people at a time instead of 2/2/1 or 1 at a time. A disc priest would have made that achieve fight a lot easier for multiples at a time.


mike-l wrote:
Lostdreams wrote:The raiding portion of that should have been subsectioned out as it wasn't a downturn in difficulty of mechanics, it was more a disappointment for the promise of more difficult content that was tuned down to something you can half ass your way through in a couple tries as long as you have at least a 5 min attention span.

It seems like the only challenge left is in a few of the achievements but even those are getting nerfed.


First off, what promise?

Secondly, I would say that this tier is easily on par with or exceeds any other raid tier in terms of difficulty with the exception of Sunwell. The ONLY easy heroic fight is Halfus, and he's comparable to BQL, Marrowgar or Rotface in terms of difficulty. It certainly blows Naxx or Kara or MC out of the water, which are the comparable raids in previous expansions.

Similarly the dungeons, in appropriate gear, are as hard or harder than any released before, with the exception of shadow labs, magisters and halls of reflection. 2/3 of those were end of expansion dungeons, and I would say that ZG is on par with them.

None of this is to say that anything is difficult. (Ok, maybe the last few heroic raid bosses are). Commander Springvale is probably the hardest heroic boss, but he was killable in full 329 gear (the minimum level to random queue), without cheesing him by pulling him to the courtyard. But with the exception of a couple bosses (C'thun, Kael, Vashj, Muru, H Anub, H LK, H Halion), nothing in this game has ever been hard.


At one point they said Cata 5 man heroics would be on par or harder than BC ones. They never actually "promised" anything but they said the design intent was to do that, which is as close as they'll ever get. ZG was almost there with a Jin'Do (possibly because we only had one ranged DPS for those hard hitting adds) but the rest felt easy. I found Shadow Labs to be the hardest of the BC and Halls of Relection to be the hardest of WotLK, but Halls was only hard because it was a gear check, not because the mechanics were tough. The hardest vanilla boss fight would be the 5 in BRD Ring of Law. It was a summoned fight for your .5 tier piece and one of the hardest I've done.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ImTestingSleeping » Sun May 08, 2011 8:24 pm UTC

From what I'm gathering here and what I've gathered in some others fora posts about Cataclysm, there seems to be a great deal of dislike. I have to to say though... I love this expansion in nearly every aspect of it. It reminds me of vanilla WoW very much, but I can't put my finger on why. Even looking back on vanilla though, when I get past the nostalgia, I realize now that the original game had some definite flaws which Blizzard has improved and that I probably couldn't live without these days (Dungeon Finder for example).

I think the raid fights they've put out this expansion are rather fun, dynamic fights (from a healer POV at least). Having to actually manage my mana and pay closer attention to my stats while having some fun new cooldowns to use as a resto druid has really been a blast. Triage healing is also so much better than wack a mole style that the end of BC and the entirety of WotLK became.

Originally, I didn't like the idea of bring back ZA/ZG. I already did that content, I didn't want/need to see it again with a slightly new flavor. However, I am enjoying myself mostly because of the higher gear requirement landing me groups with mostly 359 geared raiders who know their hand from their ass. Makes for enjoyable runs.

Having said that, I also can't wait for AQ20/40 to come back. I didn't get to see as much of AQ40 as I would've liked and I think that's true of most people playing WoW today.

My advice to you who are saying it is too easy: Stop rushing the content. You've been playing WoW for years I'll bet and you're probably pretty god damn good at what WoW ends up being: 1) Finding a good group of people to do stuff with 2) Planning out the best path to get geared up 3) Putting in a lot of time to do the plan. That's WoW in a nutshell. The "good" players manage their time well and spend a lot of time playing. Don't go for "good", go for fun. Take your time.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Sun May 08, 2011 11:46 pm UTC

ImTestingSleeping wrote:From what I'm gathering here and what I've gathered in some others fora posts about Cataclysm, there seems to be a great deal of dislike.

Generally from the people who didn't like WotLK or TBC either at the time (but will tell you now how great TBC was)

mike-l wrote:I hate heroic Conclave.

That is all.

Finally got them, after 85 pulls.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Midnight » Mon May 09, 2011 7:25 am UTC

ImTestingSleeping wrote:From what I'm gathering here and what I've gathered in some others fora posts about Cataclysm, there seems to be a great deal of dislike.

I might complain about shit, but that's just cause I complain about shit. It's a totally different and utterly superior game to vanilla WoW. It's got the difficulty of the best TBC fights. It's got the entry-level friendlyness of WotLK.


and yeah, I cannot wait for AQ. Fuck it, they can rehash content that's more than 5 years old; most of their playerbase haven't played it, and ZA/ZG is fairly different than vanilla ZA/ZG.
uhhhh fuck.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Mon May 09, 2011 2:20 pm UTC

Question (though mostly directed at mike-l):
What makes an encounter 'hard'? I mean, if only a few fights were hard, most of the player base would have all but those down. Granted, with my limited high-end raid experience, I'm thinking maybe you mean "requires a bit of dumb luck"? Just trying to find the point of reference. I mean, I'd call Cata heroics hard, but that'd be from a frame of reference to Wrath heroics, which mostly translates to "cannot face roll in 15 minutes with any pug". Though maybe it's just that they're now long, not hard...

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Mon May 09, 2011 8:57 pm UTC

At a very high level, I'd say amount of choice, and cost of making the wrong choice. The more choices you have (things you have to move from, targets you have to switch to, etc) the harder it is for each player to pick correctly, and it's exponentially harder for the entire raid to get it right. But if the cost of making a bad choice is low, eg if the damage from standing in fire is easily healable, or if you can beat the boss with 5 dead dps, then it's not hard.

The cost factor is related to tuning, eg I'd say LDW 25H with no ICC buff was very hard, but with 30% it was easy because you could ignore the ghosts and just heal through it. But tuning alone does not make an encounter hard. Like I wouldn't say that Brutallus or (original) Patchwerk was hard, even though a lot of guilds had trouble with them.

So, for example, from my personal pain over the last few weeks, I'd say Heroic Conclave is hard, because there is a ton of choice - you can be dpsing/healing/tanking on 3 different platforms, and we had 5 different 'teams' with varying jobs. Each platform contains a mechanic that instantly kills you, and 2 of the platforms have another highly damaging though not instantly fatal mechanic. 7 players are 'vital' and their death likely means a wipe (though we actually recovered from 2 of us dying on our kill, just because it was good timing with a druid arriving on our platform right as we died to BR me and I could BR the other). In addition, losing more than about 2 of the other 18 players likely meant there was no kill. Tons of choice, and 3 bad choices over the entire fight probably means a wipe.

In contrast, Heroic Magmaw is a mildly troubling fight, but I wouldn't consider it hard, since 20 players pretty much just stand there and dps skeletons whenever they're up and magmaw otherwise, having to move only 2-3 times the entire fight. There's not much choice. There are a few other mechanics, but really only the add kiter is 'vital'. Your 2 ranged targets can be replaced if they die, if you mess up the chaining, you lose a bit of damage and probably a tank, but as long as you don't miss it more than 3 times you can just keep battle rezzing them. So there is very limited choice, and the cost of choosing wrong is low for 24/25 people.

Overall, the number of choices in encounters is vastly higher than anything we saw in vanilla or TBC (kael and vashj aside, those were 2 of the best designed encounters ever if you ask me). In WotLK, the fights had a lot of choice, but the cost was generally much lower than TBC which was relatively unforgiving. The hard fights of the xpac (Firefighter, HLK, H Anub, H Halion) all had very punishing mechanics (pretty much everything in FF killed you instantly, HLK killed the entire raid when you screwed up, H Anub punished you for healing too much but still required you to heal people incredibly fast. I never even pulled H Halion so I can't really speak on that). In this xpac, the heroic fights across the board have tons of choice, and are IMO well tuned that mistakes are very costly.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ImTestingSleeping » Mon May 09, 2011 9:06 pm UTC

Midnight wrote:and yeah, I cannot wait for AQ. Fuck it, they can rehash content that's more than 5 years old; most of their playerbase haven't played it, and ZA/ZG is fairly different than vanilla ZA/ZG.


Now that I see that they're putting in entirely new boss fights/mechanics, I am more willing to be okay with the rehashing. ZA is too easy imo, but ZG had a pretty nice feeling of being in difficulty somewhere between a cata reg heroic and a raid (as intended).

The only issue I would have with the new AQ20/40 is if they do nothing to change the environment/terrain in AQ40. It was pretty damn boring as far as eye candy went. The only raid I can think of that was more boring in appearance was Molten Core. AQ40 is just orangish tunnel after tunnel leading to big orange rooms with a boss. C'Thun had the only interesting section imo. TBC had much more interesting raid environments and ZG was sort of a standout from vanilla raids in that department (which is why I was okay with them keeping ZA/ZG visually identical).

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Thu May 19, 2011 9:00 am UTC

Heroic Omnitron 25 down, /flex. Fight is a classic example of the inherent difficulty in a 25 man raid. Nothing is individually difficult but because you have 25 people who can screw up it takes a billion attempts to learn. (Took us 90 pulls to get them, though they are buggy, so some of those pulls were forced resets - they randomly would become untargettable)

Only the really hard bosses left, yay! (Maybe H Nef isn't that bad, but Sinestra, Cho'gal and Council look ridiculous, and 25 man Heroic Al'Akir is still overtuned.. I look forward to many weeks of wipes on all these guys)

Also I'm tanking now, w00t. It's fun taking 200k hits on Chimaeron :D
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:25 pm UTC

4.2 is right around the corner, which is good. It'll be exciting to see some new raid content.

I'm starting to think the weak point of the raid team is healing though. We spent a couple nights over the course of 2-3 weeks working on H Chim, and never got him down, usually losing a tank to a feud or just a random raid member. This week we decided to play with H Magmaw, who is supposedly more difficult, and downed him with a single night of attempts. Much more enjoyable fight as well. Puts us up there for our realm as well, with only a few guilds more progressed.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:53 pm UTC

ProZac wrote:4.2 is right around the corner, which is good. It'll be exciting to see some new raid content.

I'm starting to think the weak point of the raid team is healing though. We spent a couple nights over the course of 2-3 weeks working on H Chim, and never got him down, usually losing a tank to a feud or just a random raid member. This week we decided to play with H Magmaw, who is supposedly more difficult, and downed him with a single night of attempts. Much more enjoyable fight as well. Puts us up there for our realm as well, with only a few guilds more progressed.


Magmaw and Chimaeron have very different challenges. Chimaeron is a very very easy fight for dps, and a very different than normal fight for healers. Why are your tanks dying during feud, is it that they aren't getting topped off between the 5 second swings? Or are they not using CDs properly when they eat the huge Double Attack + 1 break (which hits me for about 330k on 25H before CDs when I fail to dodge either). Why are random raid members dying? Are they standing too close together and getting gibbed when 2 people get slimed near them, or are they not getting back to 10k between slimes, or are they dying during feuds? (I'm also not entirely clear on the differences with 10 man. I assume fewer people get slimed, and that break wears off fast enough that you only need 2 tanks?)
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:06 pm UTC

Huh, I typed that wrong. We did eventually get him down last week, not sure why I said we didn't. It just took a long ass time, and we finally did it successfully with using all 4 healers. Deaths were (nearly) always during feud. I'd say 70% of wipes being "tank did not get topped off before the first swing in feud" (which I believe you have about 2 seconds), then nearly all the rest just 1-2 raid members not being high enough for the last set of slime. We used a dps tank for when the bile-o-tron was active, with one tank MT'ing during feud and the other taunting the double attack.

We just found Magmaw much easier, since Magmaw seems to be about the halfway point for most Heroic 10 man progression, and Chim is supposedly one of the easiest. Really not what we found.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:10 pm UTC

If you were able to beat the soft enrage of P3 with only 4 dps, then I think that should qualify as easy :P
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:17 pm UTC

Phase 2, yes. Burn phases nearly always seem easier despite mechanics that would make them seem otherwise. I mean, H Magmaw we beat the first time we hit Phase 2. Dps: awesome. Healing team: maybe not as much. Really, shouldn't have needed 4 healers. What works, works I suppose. We did kill them the night we decided to try that.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:06 am UTC

We've been working on heroic nef for weeks, hard fight is hard. Enrage timer is pretty tight so random deaths are bad news. P2, which was already healing intensive, is now much moreso, and we have just barely enough reliable interrupters, so any of them dying usually means a wipe. Add kiting, while not super hard, is very easy to screw up and lead to a wipe. People die to the portal mechanic, people get killed by friendly fire while MC'd, people die to electrocute, we mistime killing Ony (going for 2 electrocutes in P1 which can cause the raid to blow up if we're too slow, but a number of times we've killed Ony too early and caused electrocute to hit as the lava is rising = insta death for half the raid), it's just a hellish fight. It's a considerable step up from ODS and Conclave which were the previous most difficult fights. At this point I have 0 hope of doing Council, Cho'gall, Sinestra or Al'Akir before the patch, as we've yet to even pull them :(

Really hope we can get it down before 4.2, our best attempt so far was 23% but we were close to enrage, and have not had much success getting that far very often. On other attempts we were well ahead of that try's time though, if we could only survive that long more consistently.

Btw, I know Magmaw was nerfed at some point and became significantly easier. Don't know where your info is coming from, and I don't do 10 mans so I have no idea if it's still accurate or not, but in 25s Magmaw is significantly easier than Chim. I'd say Halfus is by far the easiest, followed by Magmaw and Atramades, followed by Chim and Maloriak, followed by V&T, followed by ODS & Conclave, then a huge jump to Nef, and I can't speak for the last 4.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:33 pm UTC

I think Magmaw was nerfed near end of March. I've seen things both before and after stating his difficulty, and I generally use the WoWProgress kills as a guide (Magmaw is behind Maloriak, Atra, Chim). Most 10 man guilds around our progression I see tend to follow the Chim -> Atra -> Maloriak -> Magmaw, though some swap Chim and Atramedes. I know 25s liked to start with Magmaw.

Seems like Blizzard has indicated 6/28 will be 4.2 day though, so we have to determine if we just want a week break before going into a new patch, or whether we'd want to go try and down another Heroic (likely Atramedes).

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:36 pm UTC

ProZac wrote:I think Magmaw was nerfed near end of March. I've seen things both before and after stating his difficulty, and I generally use the WoWProgress kills as a guide (Magmaw is behind Maloriak, Atra, Chim). Most 10 man guilds around our progression I see tend to follow the Chim -> Atra -> Maloriak -> Magmaw, though some swap Chim and Atramedes. I know 25s liked to start with Magmaw.
Yeah, I see that wowprogress agrees with my order with the exception of Chim being easier than I said. Still, we pretty much 1 shot Magmaw every week, but we almost always have at least 1 if not more wipes on Chim.
Seems like Blizzard has indicated 6/28 will be 4.2 day though, so we have to determine if we just want a week break before going into a new patch, or whether we'd want to go try and down another Heroic (likely Atramedes).

We'll be extending our lockout for another 100 attempts on heroic Nef :D
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Ortus » Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:57 pm UTC

After hitting 2400 in half blues, I decided arena was kind of boring without the right partners to make it less boring. So I'm sitting on my 3s, and 2s, kinda just not logging in at all. I think I might just be waiting for 4.2 - I play Feral, and while the buffs are by no means significant in any sense of the word, the extra burst will be a boon in PvP. And who knows! I may start raiding again, if the Savage Roar buff pans out with the other classes' capabilities this tier.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Lucrece » Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:15 pm UTC

The staff that turns feral into a fire lion is AMAAAAAZING. Pity I don't play anymore lol.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Ortus » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:26 am UTC

Lucrece wrote:The staff that turns feral into a fire lion is AMAAAAAZING. Pity I don't play anymore lol.


And I'll /giggle at all of the whine posts in general and the Druid forums about how it got looted to a hunter over a feral. I play WoW and EVE, both subscriptions I pay for through Auction House/Market shenanigans... but lately, I've only been playing my purchased (legal) Pokemans games on my NDS emulator because neither game is really doing anything for me...
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Metaphysician » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:46 am UTC

Lostdreams wrote:
Menacing Spike wrote:When I last played Commander Springvale was a complete bitch, utterly undoable except by pulling him into the courtyard (or having the relevant classes or raid gear, I suppose).
Did they nerf him?


Springvale was one of the easier ones for us. We beat him in 333 gear by having a DPS in eack doorway pick up the adds before they got LoS and keep them in the hallways while the healer stood in the middle of the room and the tank and remaning DPS beat on springvale the entire time. As soon as the adds died the DPS move to springvale until just before the next wave, moving back to the doorway to repeat the cycle.

Siamat was our only hangup getting the drake as we did 3 then 2 people at a time instead of 2/2/1 or 1 at a time. A disc priest would have made that achieve fight a lot easier for multiples at a time.


mike-l wrote:
Lostdreams wrote:The raiding portion of that should have been subsectioned out as it wasn't a downturn in difficulty of mechanics, it was more a disappointment for the promise of more difficult content that was tuned down to something you can half ass your way through in a couple tries as long as you have at least a 5 min attention span.

It seems like the only challenge left is in a few of the achievements but even those are getting nerfed.


First off, what promise?

Secondly, I would say that this tier is easily on par with or exceeds any other raid tier in terms of difficulty with the exception of Sunwell. The ONLY easy heroic fight is Halfus, and he's comparable to BQL, Marrowgar or Rotface in terms of difficulty. It certainly blows Naxx or Kara or MC out of the water, which are the comparable raids in previous expansions.

Similarly the dungeons, in appropriate gear, are as hard or harder than any released before, with the exception of shadow labs, magisters and halls of reflection. 2/3 of those were end of expansion dungeons, and I would say that ZG is on par with them.

None of this is to say that anything is difficult. (Ok, maybe the last few heroic raid bosses are). Commander Springvale is probably the hardest heroic boss, but he was killable in full 329 gear (the minimum level to random queue), without cheesing him by pulling him to the courtyard. But with the exception of a couple bosses (C'thun, Kael, Vashj, Muru, H Anub, H LK, H Halion), nothing in this game has ever been hard.


At one point they said Cata 5 man heroics would be on par or harder than BC ones. They never actually "promised" anything but they said the design intent was to do that, which is as close as they'll ever get. ZG was almost there with a Jin'Do (possibly because we only had one ranged DPS for those hard hitting adds) but the rest felt easy. I found Shadow Labs to be the hardest of the BC and Halls of Relection to be the hardest of WotLK, but Halls was only hard because it was a gear check, not because the mechanics were tough. The hardest vanilla boss fight would be the 5 in BRD Ring of Law. It was a summoned fight for your .5 tier piece and one of the hardest I've done.



Could it be that the content is as hard as the content back then, but you are better at the game than you were before? I'd be surprised if you've been playing for four or five years and not improved. I don't even know why I'm in this thread... I quit WoW in WotLK and never looked back... guess I just like to pop in and see what people are saying about the game now and again.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Cynical Idealist » Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:29 am UTC

Ortus wrote:I play WoW and EVE, both subscriptions I pay for through Auction House/Market shenanigans

How do you pay for WoW through the AH?
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Ortus » Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:24 am UTC

Cynical Idealist wrote:
Ortus wrote:I play WoW and EVE, both subscriptions I pay for through a credit card

How do you make so much WoW moneys?



1. Acquire product for sale on the Auction House.
2. Sell product.
3. Repeat 1. and 2. while acquiring start-up funds; use an auction tracking add-on and track the high/low bids and buyouts for various items of interest (mainly ore and enchanting mats from the previous expansion, and occasionally other items).
4. Once you have identified lucrative trends, purchase low and sell high. For an example, I tend to buy obnoxious amounts of cobalt ore and bars on a Thursday or Friday for 55-65g(ore)/65g-80g(bars) a stack; across Sunday-Monday (or, occasionally, Sunday-Tuesday), I post all of the bars (and I smelt the ores in to bars) I purchase in small increments so as not to flood the market. I post bars for 127-135g a stack for pretty much no work.
5. Collect profits, save some for start-up in another market. I do this with three or four markets every week, and will always keep my eye on people who post way under the going price for an item. Once you have a healthy pool of funds, you can buy certain DMC: cards on my server for 2-8k less than what people will buy them for. Easy profit.
7. ????
8. Enjoy your large pile of useless game currency!
Last edited by Ortus on Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:37 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Midnight » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:16 am UTC

yes but that's illegal.
uhhhh fuck.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Ortus » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:57 am UTC

Midnight wrote:yes but that's illegal.



I don't know what you're talking about.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Deva » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:31 am UTC

Does not care about any potential sarcasm.
Terms of Use, Section III wrote:2. You agree that you will not:
...
(5) buy or sell for "real" money or exchange gold, weapons, armor, or any other virtual items that may be used in World of Warcraft outside the World of Warcraft platform;
...
Changes its form depending on the observer.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Ortus » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:39 am UTC

Deva wrote:Does not care about any potential sarcasm.
Terms of Use, Section III wrote:2. You agree that you will not:
...
(5) buy or sell for "real" money or exchange gold, weapons, armor, or any other virtual items that may be used in World of Warcraft outside the World of Warcraft platform;
...


Am still not sure what you're talking about. Honest. Though I wonder what all is considered the 'World of Warcraft platform'.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Jesse » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:41 am UTC

So, I took two days off from playing while I was ill, logged back on and my guild has just completely fucking disappeared. No guild, no word from anyone. Am starting to wonder if they've formed the No Homer's Club.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:50 am UTC

I'm not sure that exchanging gold for game time is against the ToS, as you are trading something in WoW for something 'in' WoW. I've seen it discussed in trade before by proper level 85 characters (as opposed to the level 1 gold seller spammers). but of course those people may have subsequently been banned.

Also illegal isn't really the right word.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:45 pm UTC

Heroic Atramedes went down 1 hour after the first pull. I hereby declare anyone claiming H Chimaeron is the second easiest Heroic batshit insane. 4/13 before 4.2 is nice. Definitely best I've pulled in a guild, and reinforces the idea that breaking away from the guild leadership during Wrath to start my own was a good move.

On another note, we had a large swath of people (9) basically ask to join our guild last night with the hopes of converting up to 25 man. They're experienced and geared, and just coming from a guild that's stagnating. A few members of my guild seem interested, others not as much, but not entirely opposed. Any suggestions on this? I know mergers almost always turn sour, but this isn't so much a merger. The jump to 25 man also seems daunting.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Deva » Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:56 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:I'm not sure that exchanging gold for game time is against the ToS, as you are trading something in WoW for something 'in' WoW. I've seen it discussed in trade before by proper level 85 characters (as opposed to the level 1 gold seller spammers). but of course those people may have subsequently been banned.

Is against the Terms of Service.
Nevalistis wrote:Game time, under no circumstances, is considered anything but an out of game item. It is redeemed out of game, it is not tangible in-game, it cannot be traded in-game. There is no "grant x player 30 days of game time" button, or lucky BOE item that grants game time to your character. It's an item of out of game monetary value, and should not be traded for in-game gold.

Source.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Ortus » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:30 pm UTC

Deva wrote:
Nevalistis wrote:Game time, under no circumstances, is considered anything but an out of game item. It is redeemed out of game, it is not tangible in-game, it cannot be traded in-game. There is no "grant x player 30 days of game time" button, or lucky BOE item that grants game time to your character. It's an item of out of game monetary value, and should not be traded for in-game gold.

Source.



Which is why I wondered what the, "...World of Warcraft platform..." from earlier all is. An issue of semantics, is what I'm contemplating... but yeah, I don't exactly feel morally reprehensible for paying for the game in the way that I do.
roband wrote:Face, yes. Chest, probably. Pubic area, maybe. Scrotum, not a fucking chance.


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