WoWzers!

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Lucrece
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Lucrece » Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:50 am UTC

That EULA is a crock of shit, anyways, as are arguments for buying currency. It's just more comfortable for people to believe that competing in time spent playing the game is somehow fair versus introducing outside resources everyone might not have to compete.

The person buying gold is actually getting a deal by being able to dedicate his time in the game more toward enjoyment, and the time that would've been spent grinding can be spent on more productive ventures outside the game.

Yes, a demand for gold helps feed these businesses that often resort to botting and hacking. Nevertheless, that's easily avoided by a) not having a currency system to begin with -- if gold does not confer the advantage it does, then it will be less in demand, and b) making currency earning most effective in instanced zones. That way bots become a non-issue as they're spending their time in instanced areas and away from funneling from other players.

When people complain about gold buying, I blame the game. Usually, "economies" and in-game expenditure based progression is a lousy disguise for forcing your playerbase to grind and spend more time in-game. If currency is easy enough and not time consuming to attain, in addition to being mostly useful for menial tasks (repair and reagents/non-stat or performance related stuff), there will be no gold buying or botting to begin with.

You can't blame players with little time for trying to skip the grind and get to the enjoyment. I can't say I have much respect for games that substitute grind and timesinks for actual content.

Blatant example in WoW? Consumables. It's one of the aspects that makes PvE detestable compared to PvP. You actually have to spend time farming so you can be prepared to be effective in actual play. It's just absurd and shameless.

If there's something to realize about the sad state of MMO's, it's how they're designed to be addictive beyond integrity. They've become outright perverse in ways to keep the player on a treadmill instead of accepting the idea that putting down the game to do something else when you run out of interest is OK (not for their business! But since they can't churn out legitimate content, they keep people in the dark about the makeshift "content" that is their treadmill model). I hope the genre can find a different business model so that it's no longer pigeonholed into the aforementioned tactics.
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Menacing Spike
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Menacing Spike » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:01 am UTC

Could be far worse.
Farmsville.
Full treadmill and social pressure. Not even fun.

Beardhammer
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Beardhammer » Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:29 am UTC

Lucrece wrote:That EULA is a crock of shit, anyways, as are arguments for buying currency. It's just more comfortable for people to believe that competing in time spent playing the game is somehow fair versus introducing outside resources everyone might not have to compete.

The person buying gold is actually getting a deal by being able to dedicate his time in the game more toward enjoyment, and the time that would've been spent grinding can be spent on more productive ventures outside the game.

Yes, a demand for gold helps feed these businesses that often resort to botting and hacking. Nevertheless, that's easily avoided by a) not having a currency system to begin with -- if gold does not confer the advantage it does, then it will be less in demand, and b) making currency earning most effective in instanced zones. That way bots become a non-issue as they're spending their time in instanced areas and away from funneling from other players.

When people complain about gold buying, I blame the game. Usually, "economies" and in-game expenditure based progression is a lousy disguise for forcing your playerbase to grind and spend more time in-game. If currency is easy enough and not time consuming to attain, in addition to being mostly useful for menial tasks (repair and reagents/non-stat or performance related stuff), there will be no gold buying or botting to begin with.

You can't blame players with little time for trying to skip the grind and get to the enjoyment. I can't say I have much respect for games that substitute grind and timesinks for actual content.

Blatant example in WoW? Consumables. It's one of the aspects that makes PvE detestable compared to PvP. You actually have to spend time farming so you can be prepared to be effective in actual play. It's just absurd and shameless.

If there's something to realize about the sad state of MMO's, it's how they're designed to be addictive beyond integrity. They've become outright perverse in ways to keep the player on a treadmill instead of accepting the idea that putting down the game to do something else when you run out of interest is OK (not for their business! But since they can't churn out legitimate content, they keep people in the dark about the makeshift "content" that is their treadmill model). I hope the genre can find a different business model so that it's no longer pigeonholed into the aforementioned tactics.


It seems to stand to reason that eventually the pay-to-play model for MMOs will probably be bred out in the next four or five years, especially given how successful microtransaction business models are. Hell, look at TF2: it's not even a damn MMO and Valve's raking in money hand over fist selling freaking hats. How much money you figure goes into making a hat? Maybe a few hundred dollars worth of workhours? And they sell them for $8 a pop? Cool, sell 38 of the suckers and you're immediately into profit territory.

Look at the Blizzard store mounts in WoW. You see idiots riding around on their sparklehorse or discolion all the damn time, and how much effort you think went into making those? They're just reskinned Invincibles or Gryphons, respectively. And they sell them for $25 apiece. Those morons that bought both? Cool, you just made $50 off of them, more than that if they also bought one of the pets. Hell, $25 is almost as much as two full months of subscription fees, and you don't have to worry about keeping them snared, either - once they buy that little mount, the money's yours, it's not paid off over six months. Hell, what's next? A custom Warcraft-style Chevy Camaro mount? A Warcraft-style Airbus flying mount? Why not add licensing deals into the mix? More money for everyone involved on the business end. Why not a Franchi-licensed SPAS-12 shotgun for hunters? A Brooks Brothers three-piece suit? There's tons of possibilities.

I think microtransactions are the best way to go for MMOs, and it's a business model that doesn't go "because FUCK YOU, that's why" to players, either.

Say, instead of paying $15/month and getting free content updates, they sold content updates in chunks and packages.

Like raiding but don't care for PvP? Cool, pay $10 to get access to the new raids, but you don't get access to the new PvP season or new Battleground.

Like PvP but couldn't give two shits about what those pansy carebears like? That's my man, gimme $10 and you're into the new PvP season and you ain't gotta worry about that pansy carebear crap you don't have any interest in.

You're a casual player who just wants access to the new questlines and achievements and stuff we added? Cool, another $5 and you can keep on questin'.

Or how about $20 for everything? You save $5 off the market price, and get access to everything! Hell, maybe offer special rewards for those players that consistently buy the package deal block after block - maybe buy four packages (roughly one year of content, if we assume a new pack every 3 months or so), get your next one half off. And throughout all of this, during the lulls between major content pack releases, let players buy all kinds of random crap from an in-game store. Ideally you would just be able to say "charge it to my Battle.net account," for smoothness, though doing it through a web browser would likely be much safer.

(Incidentally, this is exactly how TCG systems like Magic work. You release a new set or block every so often, and you sell booster packs and deck packs and things like that. The player doesn't have to spend any money if they don't want to - barring a tournament format where their deck or cards aren't allowed, of course - but at the same time, who wouldn't want to get those sweet new cards? That deck you like, with that concept you always wanted to try? DUDE, they got the card that's PERFECT for your deck! Just buy a few boosters and you're practically GUARANTEED to get that card you want, or cards you could trade to other players for that card you want. And we'll be gleefully running off to the Ferrari dealership to sign that new lease while you're doing it :D )

Non-combat pets, mounts, clothing and other random crap for your characters... hell, how about armor dyes or other appearance-customization tools? TF2 has proven people are willing to pay real-world money just for looking different from everyone else. Exploit that desire to be noticed, to be different! You could even sell in-game currency or other things like that as a form of convenience, though I think that's a bit of a slippery slope. I personally have no issues with it, but some players do and it could alienate them.

Hell, how about selling a product that gives your character, say, a week of double gold (from monsters, of course - not from auctions)/experience/honor/token gains? $25 and you gain your stuff at twice the rate as others! You're still held to the weekly cap so you don't really gain a true advantage over other players - you're just making it so that you get the same benefits they do, for less time invested. Suddenly your game is now even more accessible to those people that work 60 hours a week or college students that actually do their homework. Even if you can only raid or arena one night of the week, you can still cap out your points just like people that can spread out their raiding or arena over three or four nights that week. Price it at, say, $5, and allow players the option to set it to automatically renew week after week. That's roughly $20 a month if they keep it activated, or spurts of $5 here or there if they find themselves in need of gold or some other currency in a hurry, and it conveniently sidesteps the conceived issue of selling currency to players - you're not selling them currency, only helping them earn it.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:37 pm UTC

I liked Tycho's point about the glider program; if the part of the game you detest is the grind, and there's software that circumvents that grind, and you'll enjoy the game if you can hop into it in a position you like...
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Deva » Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:26 pm UTC

Acquired the Dark Phoenix Hatchling today. Travels with one hundred thirty-four companions now. Completed the Scale of the Sands as the fifty-fifth reputation. Has finished more irritating reputations before. Looks directly at you, Ravenholdt. Required leveling a rogue and then using it. Ew.
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halbarad
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby halbarad » Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:47 pm UTC

I'm thinking of starting a toon on a pvp realm. What's different from a normal realm? I'm guessing that if I encounter anyone of the opposing faction then they can attempt to kill me anywhere.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Menacing Spike » Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:49 pm UTC

halbarad wrote:I'm thinking of starting a toon on a pvp realm. What's different from a normal realm? I'm guessing that if I encounter anyone of the opposing faction then they can attempt to kill me anywhere.


You will be killed a lot by high-level dickwads.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Deva » Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:01 pm UTC

Will be safe from player attacks in the first two questing zones and in capital cities (provided you do not flag yourself for player versus player activities). May not be attacked in sanctuaries, such as Shattrath City, Dalaran, and the Temple of Earth in Deepholm. Becomes flagged upon entering any other area. Be wary on any naval or aerial transportation (excluding flight paths). Expect trouble in Tol Barad.

Avoided some high levels by being an engineer. Used either my Gnomish Mind Control Cap or my Gnomish Cloaking Device. Employed Freezing Trap too.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Midnight » Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:07 pm UTC

I don't really like the microtransaction style. I don't think I'd use it. I'm perfectly okay with Blizzard's current system of COSMETIC advantages through payments, but I don't think I'd want to have to pay to get into one raid versus another.
uhhhh fuck.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Beardhammer » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:24 am UTC

halbarad wrote:I'm thinking of starting a toon on a pvp realm. What's different from a normal realm? I'm guessing that if I encounter anyone of the opposing faction then they can attempt to kill me anywhere.


- All zones are divided into Friendly Territory (green), Contested Territory (yellow), and Hostile Territory (red.) And Sanctuary areas (blue), which are places like Dalaran, The Argent Tournament, Shattrath City, etc. While in green territory, you are not flagged for PvP (unless you choose to be.) Green territory includes faction capitals (Orgrimmar, Stormwind City, etc), and initial starting zones (Tirisfal Glades, Durotar, Elwynn Forest, Dun Morogh, etc.) The vast majority of other zones are yellow - you are flagged for PvP the entire time you're in the zone, and standard rules apply for leaving that zone for green territory (5 mins before you unflag etc etc.) Yellow zones include most leveling areas, as well as questing hotspots like Isle of Quel'danas and Tol Barad. Red territory is the opposite of green territory - you will be permanently flagged, but they won't. Red territory is the green territory for the opposite faction - so if you're a Dwarf, Durotar is red territory for you, and if you're a Blood Elf, Elwynn Forest isn't a nice place to be.

Other than that, it's completely the same. Expect to be doing a lot of fighting on Tol Barad if you want to do your dailies, and you can expect skirmishing in any zone with many players of both factions. You aren't terribly likely to get ganked because most 85's have much better things to do with their time. If you do get ganked, it's probably from an 85 that's cruising around for archaeology. I play on nothing but PvP servers and I haven't been camped in four years.

Midnight wrote:I don't really like the microtransaction style. I don't think I'd use it. I'm perfectly okay with Blizzard's current system of COSMETIC advantages through payments, but I don't think I'd want to have to pay to get into one raid versus another.


So you're more comfortable paying for content you have no interest in? You're more comfortable with paying a flat fee every month, even if you only get to play 10 hours that month versus others that are playing 100 hours a month?

The idea is that instead of content patches being free, they'd be divided into components you can purchase separately, in lieu of a monthly fee. You wouldn't pay a fee for each individual raid - you'd pay a single fee to gain access to all of that variety of content for that particular content push. Expansions, of course, would be their own thing and would be a package deal whether you like it or not. Using the microtransaction concept, you could probably expect expansions more frequently as well. It works out to be basically the same amount of income (or even more, if they really go for the cosmetic customization angle) per month for the developer, but it's far more user-friendly than a monthly fee... plus, you don't necessarily need Skinner Box-esque grinds because as long as they pay for that content, it doesn't matter if they spend 30 minutes or 60 hours playing it: you still got your money.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Midnight » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:51 am UTC

Beardhammer wrote:
Midnight wrote:I don't really like the microtransaction style. I don't think I'd use it. I'm perfectly okay with Blizzard's current system of COSMETIC advantages through payments, but I don't think I'd want to have to pay to get into one raid versus another.


So you're more comfortable paying for content you have no interest in? You're more comfortable with paying a flat fee every month, even if you only get to play 10 hours that month versus others that are playing 100 hours a month?

In a word, yes.
It inspires me to play a bit more than I usually would, and I don't think I'm alone when I'm saying I LIKE questing, battlegrounds, arenas, dungeons, hardcore raiding, exploring, leveling professions, etc. I get that, as done everyone else. Someone who only likes pve just gets pve, but that means I have to pay more because I like dabbling in a lot of content.

The idea is that instead of content patches being free, they'd be divided into components you can purchase separately, in lieu of a monthly fee. You wouldn't pay a fee for each individual raid - you'd pay a single fee to gain access to all of that variety of content for that particular content push.

I wouldn't pay a fee for each individual raid, I'd pay a fee to experience all the 4.2 PVE (eg, the individual raid (plus a boss, i guess)? Or am I paying for all the content in that particular push, eg for 4.2?


Those who have played since vanilla know that to call cataclysm-era wow "grindy" is ridiculous. It's really smooth sailing, and I think their approach to pve is getting better and better. The one thing I disagree with so far is that I liked hard modes being unlockable in-fight, a la Ulduar... but I understand the value of 'heroic mode', and it makes logistical sense.

SPEAKING of logistical sense: organizing a 10 man raid is somewhat irritating. organizing a 25 man raid is downright frustrating. Organizing EITHER of those, making sure that everyone is unsaved, geared, knows the fights, etc, is annoying enough, so adding on the extra bit of "and you're sure you have the 4.2 PvE module? You don't have to get the 4.1 PvE module, just the 4.2 one (or do you have to get both?) You paid extra for that?" is gonna be damn infuriating.

Also in terms of logistical sense: to get to 85 it already costs the game + bc + wotlk + cata. you ALSO want to pay for all those patches, because there's no monthly fee? that's a pretty hefty initial outset. or would earlier ones become free as time goes on? (and how is that different than how it is now. the first month is still free, i believe, and you can hit 85 in that time. so it's JUST initial outset.) it seems like that's not very new-player friendly... it's a lot better for people that have played for a while like you and I.
uhhhh fuck.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Beardhammer » Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:18 am UTC

Midnight wrote:I wouldn't pay a fee for each individual raid, I'd pay a fee to experience all the 4.2 PVE (eg, the individual raid (plus a boss, i guess)? Or am I paying for all the content in that particular push, eg for 4.2?


My concept would be you just purchase the "raiding pack" which would be just the new raid content - new daily questing areas, new achievements (except for the raid-related ones), and whatnot would be locked. You could still visit the new questing area... you just wouldn't be able to get the quests. There could maybe be a dude in the hub area going "yo hero we need you to pony up some cash to help us out." You could buy a "PvP pack" which just lets you compete in the new season (rated arena and rated BGs, and access to any new arena maps or BG maps that they pushed), but won't let you do the new dailies or new 5-man dungeons, or whatever. Then they could have, like, a "casual pack" that would be just the dailies and quests and "casual" achievements like get 200 pets or whatever. It'd basically be a modular system, and if it all cost $25 purchased individually, maybe they'd sell you everything for $20.

Obviously, you get bug fixes, balance tweaks, and things like that free of charge, even if you buy nothing. I, for example, have zero interest in raiding, so it'd be pretty cool if I could just buy the casual pack and PvP pack for $15 and save myself the $5 from buying the complete pack.SPEAKING of logistical sense: organizing a 10 man raid is somewhat irritating. organizing a 25 man raid is downright frustrating. Organizing EITHER of those, making sure that everyone is unsaved, geared, knows the fights, etc, is annoying enough, so adding on the extra bit of "and you're sure you have the 4.2 PvE module? You don't have to get the 4.1 PvE module, just the 4.2 one (or do you have to get both?) You paid extra for that?" is gonna be damn infuriating.

Also in terms of logistical sense: to get to 85 it already costs the game + bc + wotlk + cata. you ALSO want to pay for all those patches, because there's no monthly fee? that's a pretty hefty initial outset. or would earlier ones become free as time goes on? (and how is that different than how it is now. the first month is still free, i believe, and you can hit 85 in that time. so it's JUST initial outset.) it seems like that's not very new-player friendly... it's a lot better for people that have played for a while like you and I.


The general concept would be not having a given content pack would just prevent access to that specific content. Let's say 4.3 is arriving (not 4.2), and it includes some new raid - maybe Abyssal Maw with a water theme, since 4.2 was a fire theme. If you never bought the 4.2 raid content, it'd just mean you can't do that content. You'd probably need to have done that content to have the gear required to handle Abyssal Maw, but it's not required - you would not need to have purchased Firelands to access Abyssal Maw. The game would encourage that procession due to a gear curve, but if someone took a six month break, chances are they could just buy the most recent casual pack (the 5-man dungeons and heroics) and do those, then they'd be able to handle the newest raid on regular settings.

It'd be even more streamlined for PvP content. Not having a PvP pack just means you can't participate on the ranked ladders for that season. It might mean you miss out on that third CTF map or a new arena map, and of course you'd miss out on a chance at the Gladiator titles or new PvP mounts, but otherwise you can still just PvP normally.

I'd probably encourage the developer to release like a compilation pack every six months or so for a good price (if we assume a new content push every three months at market value $25, you'd sell the compilation pack thing for, say, $35 - $15 off "market price") to help returning players catch up. I'd probably set the system up like, every three months the game gets a content push. Every six months the two most recent content pushes are combined into a package deal, and every twelve months an expansion is pushed out that combines the entire past year's content. So you'd have a release schedule sort of like:

March: Content push (new raid, new PvP season, new daily quest hub and dungeons, etc)

June: Content push; March+June content pack available

September: Content push

December: Expansion Pack content push; Expansion pack containing March+June+September+December(expansion content) available

The idea is that you have two sizable content packages available for the biggest selling points of the year (six-month pack available at the start of summer for all those kids getting out of school for summer break, and twelve-month expansion pack hitting stores just in time for the holidays (might shove it to late November.) The expansion pack would be a heftier content push - so once a year you'd see the game receive major mechanic changes (let's say that this December we'd see the complete removal or retooling of the dispel mechanic, for example) as well as major plot advancement and whatever.

Honestly, it doesn't make sense because we're couching it in the concept of the existing pay-per-month WoW structure. It'd have to be an MMO designed from the ground up to operate like this - you couldn't take WoW and turn it into this kind of thing. Instead of a new villain and continent and whatever unveiled every 18-24 months, you'd probably see the new villain/continent foreshadowed at the six month mark, the nine month mark would be the introduction segment (zombie invasion, pre-cataclysm events, etc), and then the twelve month mark would be the official arrival of the new villain and continent. Then you'd have the inevitable Old God monster pop up at the next three month mark, foreshadowing at the six month, and so on.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Enokh » Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:30 pm UTC

This idea seems to be founded on the belief that Blizzard wouldn't switch to micro-transactions in order to better sack your wallet.

At 15 dollars a month, WoW (and any other MMO) has pretty much the best money/time spent ratio of any electronics-based hobby. Maybe we shouldn't fix things that aren't broke?

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Menacing Spike » Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:28 pm UTC

Enokh wrote:At 15 dollars a month, WoW (and any other MMO) has pretty much the best money/time spent ratio of any electronics-based hobby. Maybe we shouldn't fix things that aren't broke?


TF2 now has an infinitely better ratio.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby halbarad » Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:37 pm UTC

Deva wrote:Will be safe from player attacks in the first two questing zones and in capital cities (provided you do not flag yourself for player versus player activities). May not be attacked in sanctuaries, such as Shattrath City, Dalaran, and the Temple of Earth in Deepholm. Becomes flagged upon entering any other area. Be wary on any naval or aerial transportation (excluding flight paths). Expect trouble in Tol Barad.

Avoided some high levels by being an engineer. Used either my Gnomish Mind Control Cap or my Gnomish Cloaking Device. Employed Freezing Trap too.


Thanks for the info.

I'm starting out as a Rogue as I quite like them on the little bits of battlegrounds I've done on my normal server. Hopefully I won't have to spend too much time questing to level up as I'm always queued for either a battleground or a PUG, not the best way to level but it's less boring than just grinding quests and I seem to get some useful gear out of dungeons.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:39 pm UTC

Enokh wrote:At 15 dollars a month, WoW (and any other MMO) has pretty much the best money/time spent ratio of any electronics-based hobby. Maybe we shouldn't fix things that aren't broke?

Are you claiming there are no games out there that you can sink as much time into as WoW, or that WoW has the most amount of fun/$ spent of any game? I'd say both are contentious claims; I spent maybe 20 bucks on MOO2, and have probably played way more of it then I ever did WoW.

Also, Re: PVP server;
It just means you'll get ganked while questing, and in the rare scenario that a similarly leveled player encounters you, you'll have to actually slot those CC pvp abilities that PvE'ers might ignore.

Also, you'll actually learn why Rogues are evil.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Decker » Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:44 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Also, you'll actually learn why Rogues are evil.


It's true. We're fuckers.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby halbarad » Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:54 pm UTC

Decker wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:Also, you'll actually learn why Rogues are evil.


It's true. We're fuckers.


I'm already pretty aware of why Rogues are evil, it's one of the main reasons I chose to play one. The one class I don't like from my limited low level experience in battlegrounds are frost mages, if I don't kill one with ambush + eviscerate then they just Frost Nova and run away. I think I'll just start putting all the abilities I have for clearing snares on my main action bar just for them. Though this time I rolled a blood elf for Arcane Torrent, rather than my usual gnome for the racial snare ability.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:33 pm UTC

Every class has a reasonable counter to Rogues, but there's nothing more fun than being chain stunned and watching your life tick down and down and down.

Personally, I think they're a fairly stupid class. Weee, I only shine in PvP, yay.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Menacing Spike » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:19 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Every class has a reasonable counter to Rogues, but there's nothing more fun than being chain stunned and watching your life tick down and down and down.

Personally, I think they're a fairly stupid class. Weee, I only shine in PvP, yay.


Roghes are pretty good for mining in the twilight highlands. It's rage inducing when I'm busy fearing/seducing/aggroing with succubus while an invis rogue sprints pasts, saps, and mines.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Beardhammer » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:54 am UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:Every class has a reasonable counter to Rogues, but there's nothing more fun than being chain stunned and watching your life tick down and down and down.

Personally, I think they're a fairly stupid class. Weee, I only shine in PvP, yay.


Roghes are pretty good for mining in the twilight highlands. It's rage inducing when I'm busy fearing/seducing/aggroing with succubus while an invis rogue sprints pasts, saps, and mines.


What kind of Rogue is this that can sap you while you're in combat? Did you get orejacked by a GM?

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Menacing Spike » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:10 am UTC

Beardhammer wrote:What kind of Rogue is this that can sap you while you're in combat? Did you get orejacked by a GM?


He saps the mobs (humanoid twilight dudes).

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Ortus » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:52 am UTC

I truly believe Blizzard is incapable and incompetent when it comes to balancing low-level PvP. Rogues, DKs, and Hunters are still doing way too much damage. At every PvP bracket they are in, sub-85. Hunters balance at around level 60, but at 69 they get Chimera shot and it's GG again.

Seriously, it's fucking aggravating.

Also: Rogues are getting worked by 4.2. Cloak of Shadows and Combat Readiness share a cooldown. I'm going to be playing Spriest/Feral/Rsham. Trololololo.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Beardhammer » Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:29 am UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:
Beardhammer wrote:What kind of Rogue is this that can sap you while you're in combat? Did you get orejacked by a GM?


He saps the mobs (humanoid twilight dudes).


... So attack the rogue as he's mining?

Ortus wrote:I truly believe Blizzard is incapable and incompetent when it comes to balancing low-level PvP. Rogues, DKs, and Hunters are still doing way too much damage. At every PvP bracket they are in, sub-85. Hunters balance at around level 60, but at 69 they get Chimera shot and it's GG again.

Seriously, it's fucking aggravating.

Also: Rogues are getting worked by 4.2. Cloak of Shadows and Combat Readiness share a cooldown. I'm going to be playing Spriest/Feral/Rsham. Trololololo.


It's less about them being incompetent, but instead being about them not giving a flying fuck about anything that happens before 85. The B team's in charge now, and they're pressed just keeping up with new content for 85, let alone finding time for pre-85.

Cloak/CR nerf was because Rogues were completely unviable targets. Cloak/CR change is forcing them to choose spell immunity or melee immunity cooldowns. Presumably this will make comps that include both melee and spell (warrior/lock/heals?) more effective against Rogue teams since now targeting the Rogue will actually be a viable decision.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Menacing Spike » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:46 pm UTC

Beardhammer wrote:... So attack the rogue as he's mining


I was talking about a same-faction rogue. Otherwise we would obviously beat the shit out of each other. Winner depending on metamorphosis CD. Ah, sweet, balanced, interesting pvp.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Ortus » Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:59 pm UTC

Beardhammer wrote:
Ortus wrote:I truly believe Blizzard is incapable and incompetent when it comes to balancing low-level PvP. Rogues, DKs, and Hunters are still doing way too much damage. At every PvP bracket they are in, sub-85. Hunters balance at around level 60, but at 69 they get Chimera shot and it's GG again.

Seriously, it's fucking aggravating.

Also: Rogues are getting worked by 4.2. Cloak of Shadows and Combat Readiness share a cooldown. I'm going to be playing Spriest/Feral/Rsham. Trololololo.


It's less about them being incompetent, but instead being about them not giving a flying fuck about anything that happens before 85. The B team's in charge now, and they're pressed just keeping up with new content for 85, let alone finding time for pre-85.


That would be the standard definition of incompetence...

Beardhammer wrote:Cloak/CR nerf was because Rogues were completely unviable targets. Cloak/CR change is forcing them to choose spell immunity or melee immunity cooldowns. Presumably this will make comps that include both melee and spell (warrior/lock/heals?) more effective against Rogue teams since now targeting the Rogue will actually be a viable decision.


Oh, I know why it was nerfed; I'm also going to be playing a comp that includes both melee and spell up to Glad in S10.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Beardhammer » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:31 am UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:
Beardhammer wrote:... So attack the rogue as he's mining


I was talking about a same-faction rogue. Otherwise we would obviously beat the shit out of each other. Winner depending on metamorphosis CD. Ah, sweet, balanced, interesting pvp.


So buy it from him, then :P

Ortus wrote:That would be the standard definition of incompetence...


Is it? Incompetence would be being unable to get anything done, and what you do get done is lousy. Last I checked, people were really pumped for Firelands.

Being understaffed isn't the same as being incompetent.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Ortus » Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:09 pm UTC

Beardhammer wrote:
Ortus wrote:That would be the standard definition of incompetence...


Is it? Incompetence would be being unable to get anything done, and what you do get done is lousy. Last I checked, people were really pumped for Firelands.

Being understaffed isn't the same as being incompetent.



As much as I appreciate an actual argument,

selectively looking at a portion of an entire game and representing it as the whole is a bit ridiculous. Blizzard straight-up informed their player base that they don't care to adjust numbers; apparently adjusting numbers is too bothersome or time consuming for a major content patch. And ignoring the whatever it's called (fuck me if I can remember it right now), I would wager the majority of people* have at least one character under level 85. Seeing as how Firelands will only be accessible in its entirety (ignoring Hard Modes, including the Hyjal dailies) to a very small number of people in relation to the total population, I would also wager that more people care about the pre-85 experience than Firelands.

I stand by my incompetence comment.

*http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:23 pm UTC

Ortus wrote:
Beardhammer wrote:
Is it? Incompetence would be being unable to get anything done, and what you do get done is lousy. Last I checked, people were really pumped for Firelands.

Being understaffed isn't the same as being incompetent.



As much as I appreciate an actual argument,

selectively looking at a portion of an entire game and representing it as the whole is a bit ridiculous. Blizzard straight-up informed their player base that they don't care to adjust numbers



So not caring is the standard definition of incompetence?

I'm sure there are lots of people out there who don't have any 85s and so the Firelands doesn't affect them at all, but I'd also wager that almost everyone who plays seriously enough to care about PvP balance has at least 1 85. I'm sure there are exceptions, and only Blizzzard has data on this, but I would be really surprised if the majority of activity in the game is from level 85 characters, and the amount of time spent in PVP at low levels is incredibly low (just see how long BG queues are in the lower brackets for very strong evidence for this)

Also, I have no idea what's up with that graph in the link, because it shows 4 million level 10-85, and 2 million 85s only, yet the graph is completely flat, and last I checked, 75*2 was much bigger than 4.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Ortus » Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:01 am UTC

Yeah, I should find a new link. I remember that being accurate in TBC and the start of Wrath...

mike-l wrote:So not caring is the standard definition of incompetence?


In this case? Yeah, it kind of is; "We don't even care about a significant portion of our player base enough to adjust numbers". I'm not paying a $15/mo subscription for you not to care about me - which is kind of disingenuous, actually; allow me to rephrase: it's like they aren't even showing up to work. What would you call a politician who didn't care enough to attend a session of congress? Incompetent at his job of being a politician.

My argument pretty much settles around the point that Blizzard cared enough to add leveling through Battlegrounds and add separate queues for twinks. Certain classes have the same almost overwhelming advantage over classes that aren't those classes, that twinks had over non-twinks. Blizzard thought that twinks interaction with the general population was a problem, but doesn't think this is? Kay.

Furthermore, it's adjusting numbers. Not caring about an experience that affects a portion of your player base, and a significant portion at that*, for any reason at all, speaks to me of incompetence. Give me a week on the internal servers and a spreadsheet with the relevant data and I will do the work for free. It's adjusting numbers for low level PvP. It doesn't have to be done exactly right, but it should be done.

*If it wasn't significant, why add leveling through Battlegrounds or adjust the way twinks interact with the general BG crowd? Actually, that's a pretty good analogy. Rogues and Hunters notably, but there are other offenders, have exactly the same advantage over 'regular players' (where regular players are classes other than hunter/rogue/other offenders) that twinks had over non-twink'd characters; almost regardless of gear, too. Almost.

If Blizzard cared enough to nerf twinks, why not fix this? It's not a difficult task, you aren't fine tuning the competitive aspect where a mistake/poor balance could kick you out of major e-sport arenas (lolololol MLG), or get you in trouble with top-tier guilds that make money off of progression - you are doing a quick numbers pass to reduce the abilities that are hitting too hard or pump up the classes/specs abilities that are not hitting hard enough across the BG brackets used to level. That's not something that has to be perfect or all consuming. It's a quality of life and customer appreciation act, and the reasons for not doing it are, in my opinion, stupid.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby halbarad » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:07 am UTC

What do you consider low level? Lower than 85? Lower than 80? Lower than 50?

I've done a reasonable amount of battlegrounds on a few different classes from 10 - 40 and found that it's surprisingly balanced. People with heirlooms do better (as you'd expect) but it's still a good mix.

"twerking some numbers" is a bit of an understatement, unless you put in specific clauses for when the changed numbers matter (character level < 70 or something) then they will have an impact all the way to 85, and could have a big impact there depending on how big a change to the numbers.

I think it's a good idea to develop more content for level 85 (or 90 or whatever they decide to increase the level cap to next), it's likely the goal for most people to get to 85 and experience raids and heroics and all the other end game things. The mid and low level content isn't bad, sure it's not as interesting as some of the new content (most of the starter zones are boring and the worgen and goblin ones are an interesting change) but it gets you to the end game and lets you see a bit of variety in the scenery (if not much variety in the quest objectives).

Most of this is just my opinion from my somewhat limited experience of the game so far and I don't have a character at 85 yet (trying to level 3 characters at a time so I don't get too bored).

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Ortus » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:31 am UTC

Lower than 85 would be low level PvP in this, yes. Blizzard has demonstrated that abilities can be both split for PvP/PvE (not something I'm considering in my tirade against the imbalance in sub-85 PvP) and have their values and scaling changed sub-85.

The issue is abilities like Ambush - with daggers, especially BoA daggers, the ability literally one shots most clothies (and, for that matter, mail and plate) in the 10-14/15-19 bracket. Shadowstep, Ambush, and Evis are the 3 buttons that can literally carry a rogue to level 60. Hunters have Aimed Shot that nearly one shots in all brackets up to 45-50 range on top of ridiculous pet damage starting around the 34-39 bracket. And then they get Chimera at 69, which will hit for a little less but is instant. DKs in the 75-79 bracket and the 80-84 bracket have to press Frost Strike maybe thrice and something will die.

Frost Mages can global someone in any bracket starting at 14-19, and don't slow down 'till they fight resil at 85. Shadow Priests, in 4.2, can global players with Mind Blast in the 60-64/65-69 bracket, and remains an entirely too powerful spell until you encounter resilience at 85.

What I'm getting at is that there are a plethora of singular abilities that players can keybind to all the keys and smash face in to keyboard for assured victory. There is a vast power gap between classes. And, due to the way abilities scale per level in Cata, adjusting the abilities that cause the power gap would be a relatively simple matter* of adjusting the numbers in the formula used to derive the values of low and top-end damage for these abilities. And again! Blizzard has demonstrated these formula's can be changed independent of any effect on their level 85 versions.

*As opposed to completely redesigning said abilities from scratch.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Beardhammer » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:24 pm UTC

Ortus wrote:Lower than 85 would be low level PvP in this, yes. Blizzard has demonstrated that abilities can be both split for PvP/PvE (not something I'm considering in my tirade against the imbalance in sub-85 PvP) and have their values and scaling changed sub-85.

The issue is abilities like Ambush - with daggers, especially BoA daggers, the ability literally one shots most clothies (and, for that matter, mail and plate) in the 10-14/15-19 bracket. Shadowstep, Ambush, and Evis are the 3 buttons that can literally carry a rogue to level 60. Hunters have Aimed Shot that nearly one shots in all brackets up to 45-50 range on top of ridiculous pet damage starting around the 34-39 bracket. And then they get Chimera at 69, which will hit for a little less but is instant. DKs in the 75-79 bracket and the 80-84 bracket have to press Frost Strike maybe thrice and something will die.

Frost Mages can global someone in any bracket starting at 14-19, and don't slow down 'till they fight resil at 85. Shadow Priests, in 4.2, can global players with Mind Blast in the 60-64/65-69 bracket, and remains an entirely too powerful spell until you encounter resilience at 85.

What I'm getting at is that there are a plethora of singular abilities that players can keybind to all the keys and smash face in to keyboard for assured victory. There is a vast power gap between classes. And, due to the way abilities scale per level in Cata, adjusting the abilities that cause the power gap would be a relatively simple matter* of adjusting the numbers in the formula used to derive the values of low and top-end damage for these abilities. And again! Blizzard has demonstrated these formula's can be changed independent of any effect on their level 85 versions.

*As opposed to completely redesigning said abilities from scratch.


No, I agree with you. I tried the whole level 70 twinking thing on advice from some buddies and the experience was so bad that it actually drove me away from the game for a month. It's not too bad at 70 (Frost Mages reign supreme but that's a mechanics problem, not a numbers problem), but the 10-70 part, as a Warrior? It was fucking terrible. No Hamstring (read: NO SNARE) until the late 20s. You finally get Pummel in the late 30s. In-combat Charge? Not until 29 for Protection, and not until 49 for Arms. Intercept? Wait until 50. But guys, it's okay because we get Cleave at like 24!

Meanwhile, Hunters get Concussive Shot AND Wing Clip around level 12, and they get Disengage at 14. There is literally no excuse for a Hunter to lose a 1v1 against any melee spec at level 14. Hell, a decent Hunter can likely handle two or maybe even three melee classes at the same time. Concussive Shot can be used at long range, and has a shorter cooldown than its duration. Wing Clip, of course, has no cooldown, though it does require melee range. The thing is, though, since no other melee class even has a snare at 14, the hunter can just Wing Clip, run away, and resume shooting. If they get in trouble, Wing Clip and Disengage (or Disengage and Concussive Shot while you're in the air.) You can see where problems crop up.

But at the same time, I'd rather they focus their efforts on balancing and refining the level 85 content. If I had to pick one or the other, I'd pick level 85, and most other players would, too. Blizzard picks it because level 85 is where the grinds are, where the carrot-on-a-stick grinds are, which is where the money comes from. Why do you think RAF now goes to 80 and heirlooms are everywhere? It's because Blizzard wants people to level cap as quickly as possible so they can continue grinding honor and tokens. If you get burned out with one toon, hey no problem, you can level a new one really quick and get right back to doing the same boring grinds in a slightly different way! Fun! :P

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Ortus » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:39 am UTC

I am so fucking done with this game fuck doesn't even come close to describe it; fucking fuck I hate everything this game has come to stand for, how do you other people stand that fucking shit? Fuck.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Deva » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:22 am UTC

What caused this abrupt-sounding shift (if you do not mind my asking)? Or has it been building for a while?
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Beardhammer » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:27 am UTC

Deva wrote:What caused this abrupt-sounding shift (if you do not mind my asking)? Or has it been building for a while?


Whoa. You just used first person.

Ortus wrote:I am so fucking done with this game fuck doesn't even come close to describe it; fucking fuck I hate everything this game has come to stand for, how do you other people stand that fucking shit? Fuck.


U mad bro.

Yeah, he mad.

Sorry. I had to. It seemed appropriate. But what's got you so pissed off about WoW? I've been enjoying it quite a bit lately, though I only play a couple hours every two or three days lately.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Menacing Spike » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:43 am UTC

Beardhammer wrote:Whoa. You just used first person.


Astounded also. Very surprising.


Beardhammer wrote:U mad bro.

Answer in kind: ur doin it wrong.

WoW boring. Rehashed content and skins. No innovation. Costs a lot. Grind based. PvP less balanced as time goes on. Repetition does not make good gameplay.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Beardhammer » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:17 am UTC

I don't feel the grind at all playing a couple hours every two or three days. Then again, I don't do PvE and can't be fucked to do any dailies but my cooking daily and maybe my new Firelands dailies once or twice a week (I have 29 treehugger marks and a day's worth of quests I should probably turn in at some point.)

PvP can't even realistically be called a grind anymore - honor flows so ridiculously fast. Two hours of BGs and I'm at 3000 honor and can buy whatever I want. Conquest points are even less of a grind - two hours of arena and you're capped for the week. I don't really notice balance issues, honestly. I wish healers had to cast more instead of run in circles and spam instants, but forcing casters to actually cast would mean a blanket nerf to every interrupt in the entire game, or otherwise casters would have to get used to being punching bags for 24 seconds out of every 30. I don't consider it a balance issue, just a design flaw.

I think the last thing I bitched about being OP was Forbearance only being 1 minute and that was in Wintergrasp when I was dueling a Retardin. BoP, heal up. Bubble, get one heal before I break it. Lay on Hands, heal to full. Die, come back, finally kill the motherfucker (because he doesn't have any of his extra lives), he comes back, and it's started over again - except he can BoP again and I can't break it. But that's 1v1 and who cares, it's 1v1. I was just irritated I couldn't finish knocking down the towers before running into the keep and winning.

$15/month isn't really that expensive. I'd dig a more modular pay system (as I've said on this page already), but $15/month isn't really that bad. Shit, Netflix costs $10/month.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:29 pm UTC

Whoa, so I cancelled my sub a couple months back, and just found a charge for a 3-month subscription on my credit card. Here's a test to Blizzards customer service to see if they refund me.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Ortus » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:37 pm UTC

Beardhammer wrote:
Deva wrote:What caused this abrupt-sounding shift (if you do not mind my asking)? Or has it been building for a while?


Whoa. You just used first person.


This was my plan all along!


Sorry. I had to. It seemed appropriate. But what's got you so pissed off about WoW? I've been enjoying it quite a bit lately, though I only play a couple hours every two or three days lately.



I'm pissed at a lot of things, and I've been pissed at them for a while. PvE doesn't do anything for me anymore, and neither does PvP: I don't enjoy random BGs when I need to farm for honor, I don't enjoy RBGs because they are (in my opinion) executed poorly, and after getting my 3s to 2400 the first day of s10 I'm slowly realizing how massively stupid this game actually is. There's so much wrong with it from not just a competitive but from a user experience standpoint my only response is to bash my head in to a wall when I think about it.

I've cancelled my account, and it runs out in about a week. I'll be leveling my alt Shaman to perhaps get another perspective on things, but I'm about 100% sure I'm not going to touch this game after my account expires.

I wish I could go back to Americas Army 2.0, or BF2 - what I loved about those games is that, while there we 'flavor of the month' guns and cheap tactics, the opportunity existed for you to do some amazing things with the worst weapons, or no ammo, or when by all accounts you should be down and out. If you played the best match of your life, you're not going to get shit on... and that is so far from true in WoW it hurts my brain. I'm hoping Guild Wars will tide me over 'till GW2/BF3, as there aren't any FPS's I really enjoy playing at the moment, and I'm having trouble getting back in to DotA/HoN style games.

Deva wrote:What caused this abrupt-sounding shift (if you do not mind my asking)? Or has it been building for a while?


I've had a love/hate relationship with this game for awhile. I've been playing it since Vanilla, and I've had some great times with it... but it's a pile of shit. The devs are just doing it wrong, and it seems to me like it is too late to fix it. I've been very active on the forums pretty much since Vanilla, and a few of my suggestions have actually made it in to the game almost entirely intact, but it seems to me that the community is being entirely ignored, now. Entirely ignored. Zarhym, one of the coolest CMs on the forums, was actually talking with us over one of the current 'top issues' in PvP, Feral Druids, and then I go off and see what he posts in another thread, or what another CM posts, and /sigh. I'm just kind of done with it all.
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