best game developer of all time

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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby Gelsamel » Sat May 02, 2009 5:51 am UTC

You're the only person who is being inflammatory here... we actually give reasons for why we are picking who we're picking. Valve/Blizzard/Nintendo and SquareEnix seem to be the ones most people believe to be in the top in this thread and we've given reasons exactly why they're really good.

You just call our posts rubbish and claim that we're wrong because we're fanboys who like to masturbate over Blizzard... nice point.

We're not even having a reasonable discussion anymore,


Actually we were going okay until you came in.

Rare, Konami, Capcom, Nintendo, Sonic Team...


Rare, Konami, Capcom and Sonic Team all have a way way way lower signal to noise ratio than Nintento/Valve/Blizzard/SquareEnix and they also lose in popularity, revenue, awards etc. This isn't a subjective measurement, you can go and actually find these details on the net and other places.


I'm not even a console-boy, Black Isle are one of my favourite developers. It says a lot that the people who post about such developers leave it at that while certain people feel the need to repeatedly post justifying their choice.


Because this is NOT "Who is your favourite developer?", have you even been reading? Asking a subjective opinion on something like this is fucking stupid. The best way to have a discussion about this is to talk about facts, ie. things we can measure objectively. And when we look at the facts, regardless of personal preference, Blizzard and Valve and Nintento and SquareEnix come out on top.

Blizzard is NOT MY FAVOURITE DEVELOPER, not is Nintendo, or Valve or Square Enix. In fact I don't really like much SquareEnix games, and I've only really played WoW and Diablo much. I've never played Valves games for a long amount of time and Nintendo is only "Okay" on my list of personal preference, but from an objective standpoint they are still the best.

My favorite developer is probably Namco Bandai/Atlus, but they just don't have the stats and figures to compete with Nintendo and Blizzard, Valve and SquareEnix.
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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby infernovia » Sat May 02, 2009 6:46 am UTC

Actually, there isn't much of a discussion going on. If we are looking at sales figures, we could easily wikipedia it. I will give you the easy route: Nintendo wins this one by landslide. EA would also be on top with Sims.

If we are looking at the impact on how we game, we could easily include D&D and nobody has mentioned Street Fighter aside from me. There is also Mario & sonic which facilitated the growth of platformers. And Doom. And dune.

If we are looking at innovation, Taito hasn't even been mentioned. Taito who created space invader, bubble bobble, Dungeon Maker. Mostly forgotten for interesting mechanics in Braid/portal (which was not found in valve).

If we are looking at polish, Clover and Smilebit would be there but isn't considered just because it hasn't sold as much. Neither is Cave or Touhou. Blizzard would also be on top here.

So how do we answer this question? We can't, because there are too many categories that are conflicting with each other. Limit this by genre and we could have some actual conclusions.

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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby Gelsamel » Sat May 02, 2009 6:55 am UTC

infernovia wrote:Actually, there isn't much of a discussion going on. If we are looking at sales figures, we could easily wikipedia it. I will give you the easy route: Nintendo wins this one by landslide. EA would also be on top with Sims.


But we're not -just- looking at sales figures. EA puts out a total bunch of shit, their signal to noise is really small. However they make their money through good PR and just a huge amount of games.

If we are looking at the impact on how we game, we could easily include D&D and nobody has mentioned Street Fighter aside from me. There is also Mario & sonic which facilitated the growth of platformers. And Doom. And dune.


I agree, but we're not -just- looking at the impact on how we game.

If we are looking at innovation, Taito hasn't even been mentioned. Taito who created space invader, bubble bobble, Dungeon Maker. Mostly forgotten for interesting mechanics in Braid/portal (which was not found in valve).


I think Innovation might not necessarily play a huge part, but even then we're not -just- looking at this.

If we are looking at polish, Clover and Smilebit would be there but isn't considered just because it hasn't sold as much. Neither is Cave or Touhou. Blizzard would also be on top here.


Hey, I said Team Shanghai Alice was the Best Shmup Developer.

Other than these areas we need to look at fan base and signal-noise and awards etc.

So how do we answer this question? We can't, because there are too many categories that are conflicting with each other. Limit this by genre and we could have some actual conclusions.


We already have limited it by genre, just above. Valve/Nintendo/Blizzard/SquareEnix fill up most if not all of the genres that we've discussed.

In any case, It's ridiculous to say this conversation is rubbish or "Fanboys masturbating over their favourite developer". It's only that if you are misinformed and try to contribute to the discussion in that way.
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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby el_loco_avs » Sat May 02, 2009 11:18 am UTC

infernovia wrote:If we are looking at the impact on how we game, we could easily include D&D and nobody has mentioned Street Fighter aside from me. There is also Mario & sonic which facilitated the growth of platformers. And Doom. And dune


See, we're talkinga bout videogames I think. D&D doesn't qualify.

And you're mentioning single games. Yed ID Software gets major points for their FPS work. But past Quake II I've not enjoyed any of their games. They're mostly about building their 3d engines now. We'll have to see what Rage/ Tech5 engine does.. but... they haven't done much in the last 10 years.

SF, yes. I think Capcom was mentioned. They get points for... popularizing fighting games along with MK (Acclaim, I think). They have Megman, which is just awesome but suffers from Sequelitis. And 1942. All very popular games. Capcom is deservedly in the race, mulyiple totally different genres that they've made important games in.

Dune I & II were amazing. But Westwood didn't do much of importance apart from the RTS genre (C&C and Red Alert being huge. But they can't compete with Starcrafts longevity or Total Annihilation in terms of bringing new things to the genre), and even then. Eye of the Beholder maybe, but I'm not familiar enough with that series and it's impact. Kyrandia was great fun, but any Lucasarts adventure stomps all over it.


infernovia wrote:If we are looking at innovation, Taito hasn't even been mentioned. Taito who created space invader, bubble bobble, Dungeon Maker. Mostly forgotten for interesting mechanics in Braid/portal (which was not found in valve).

Taito rocks. But shit. they're still milking Space Invaders 30years later. What worthwhile game have they released in the past years (apart from all those puzzle games). Operation Wolf was played to death in this house though. :mrgreen:

infernovia wrote:If we are looking at polish, Clover and Smilebit would be there but isn't considered just because it hasn't sold as much. Neither is Cave or Touhou. Blizzard would also be on top here.

Cave, Touhou. Come on? Yes... bullet hell is an interesting take on the vertical scrolling shooter genre but... damn. The polish isn't that great that they deserve a Best Ever mention imo.

infernovia wrote:So how do we answer this question? We can't, because there are too many categories that are conflicting with each other. Limit this by genre and we could have some actual conclusions.

Limit it by genre and people just start arguing about the best games I think.
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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby Tomo » Sat May 02, 2009 12:08 pm UTC

Gelsamel wrote:
We're not even having a reasonable discussion anymore,


Actually we were going okay until you came in.


I posted on the first page actually. And I did say the previous post was purposefully inflammatory to spark a discussion, which it seems to have done.

Gelsamel wrote:Rare, Konami, Capcom and Sonic Team all have a way way way lower signal to noise ratio than Nintento/Valve/Blizzard/SquareEnix and they also lose in popularity, revenue, awards etc. This isn't a subjective measurement, you can go and actually find these details on the net and other places.


I agree that they have a lower signal to noise ratio, I disagree that that's a bad thing. Square, Blizzard, Valve and even Nintendo atm have a high quality ratio because they continue to put out slightly refined games in the same genres - the same series even. In my opinion, this doesn't make them a good developer. I loved Starcraft, but honestly I'm not even slightly bothered about Starcraft 2, I've not seen anything new or exciting to do with it at all.

Gelsamel wrote:Because this is NOT "Who is your favourite developer?", have you even been reading? Asking a subjective opinion on something like this is fucking stupid. The best way to have a discussion about this is to talk about facts, ie. things we can measure objectively. And when we look at the facts, regardless of personal preference, Blizzard and Valve and Nintento and SquareEnix come out on top.


Again, I disagree. If we're only talking about facts, the game developer who has made the most money wins straight out. That's not a discussion. In addition, read the first post? It clearly says Who, in your opinion is the best developer, then continues to say Polyphony Digital because the OP is a Gran Turismo fan. That kinda set the tone for the thread.

Personally, I don't care about sales, money, facts. The best game developer in my opinion is the one who makes the games I enjoy most.
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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby Gelsamel » Sat May 02, 2009 12:29 pm UTC

Tomo wrote:The best game developer in my opinion is the one who makes the games I enjoy most.


But that sentiment is what makes this thread rubbish.

If you claim the "best" is just the one you personally like best then you're not even bothering to think about it objectively and you're going to end up yelling at people for being fanboys and thus wrong...
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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby el_loco_avs » Sat May 02, 2009 1:18 pm UTC

Gelsamel wrote:
Tomo wrote:The best game developer in my opinion is the one who makes the games I enjoy most.


But that sentiment is what makes this thread rubbish.

If you claim the "best" is just the one you personally like best then you're not even bothering to think about it objectively and you're going to end up yelling at people for being fanboys and thus wrong...



I'd say you'd just end up BEING a fanboy.
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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby SecondTalon » Sat May 02, 2009 1:43 pm UTC

So is this what happens when I go to sleep? This is why we can't have nice things. Go back to listing reasons why X is the best developer and stop harping on each other for why they're picking their favorite whatever. At this point, the only two ways this thread can go is up or locked. Or boneyarded. Three ways.
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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby SecondTalon » Sat May 02, 2009 2:22 pm UTC

*Pretend there was more stuff here, because there was. Was being the key word.*

...Let's try this again, shall we?
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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby Tomo » Sat May 02, 2009 3:17 pm UTC

--Reposting the non-offtopic half of my deleted post, ty to ST for the go-ahead.

Personally I've enjoyed reading most of the differing opinions in this thread. I would have totally forgotten about Atlas if someone hadn't mentioned that, and I like understanding why people have different opinions and what they enjoy about certain developers. If everyone had said "I like this small dev studio, because they made this game, and this is the reason I liked it", the thread would have been much improved. I find getting bogged down in details, facts and the like is what really detracted from the discussion, and all the posts about "Blizzard make WoW, WoW is popular, Blizzard are the best" pretty much bored me.

This is getting offtopic though, I guess we just look for different things in a discussion.

Back on topic, the best game developer EVER, and the best game developer IN MY OPINION, are two distinct and different things. I'd objectively pick Rare for the first, and I'd subjectively pick Square-Enix for the second. But that's just because I love JRPGs, not because they're that good.

My reasons for picking Rare are the huge volume of fantastic games, creation of multiple new IPs/series instead of repeated sequels and ability to create games across numerous genres without any loss in quality. At one point they had arguably the best non-simulation racing game, the best first person shooter, the best platformer, the best third person shooter and the best puzzle/action game out AT THE SAME TIME.

If best is taken to mean highest skill at making games anyway. If you take best to mean most succesful, then yeah, Nintendo/Blizzard I guess.
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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby jerdak » Sat May 02, 2009 5:24 pm UTC

Can I nominate myself since I made the bestest ever 2D RPG back in my highschool programming course.

We here at Jerdak creations pride ourselves on innovative thought. Long before SquareEnix pioneered the androgynous hero I was throwing a full pre-op tranny against the forces of evil, replete with jiggly 2D man/woman parts. :) Well the jiggliness wasn't in my final submission but it could be unlocked.

I've got a new nomination: SegaWow, formerly Overworks, formerly Sega- A7, formerly WoW, formerly Sega-AM1.

Straight from the wiki:

Games Developed as AM1
* Altered Beast
* House Of The Dead

Games Developed as WoW Entertainment
* Sega GT

Games developed as AM7
* Phantasy Star series
* Deep Fear
* Sakura Wars series
* Shinobi series
* Streets of Rage series

Games developed as OverWorks
* Skies of Arcadia
* Shinobi PS2

Games developed as Sega Wow
* Nightshade
* Blood Will Tell
* Project Altered Beast


I can't count the number of times I played Streets of Rage after school with friends. Or Skies of Arcadia which is high on my list of all time favorite games.
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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby infernovia » Sat May 02, 2009 6:15 pm UTC

See, we're talkinga bout videogames I think. D&D doesn't qualify.

I only saw game developer. Of course, I only used D&D because it was the definition of RPG/made it come to the public, as I really can't really ascribe this to Square.

And you're mentioning single games.

I judge developers by the games the release. And I am using specific games to talk about innovation/sell rate/polish/what have you.

SF, yes. I think Capcom was mentioned.

By me. I am not going to put MK (Acclaim) in there, even if they did sell more. Mostly because Mortal Kombat isn't a very good franchise. As I said, Street Fighter defined the genre, which puts it up there with dune, doom. If we are arguing this based on that specific trait, capcom should be in the running.

Dune I & II were amazing. But Westwood didn't do much of importance apart from the RTS genre (C&C and Red Alert being huge. But they can't compete with Starcrafts longevity or Total Annihilation in terms of bringing new things to the genre), and even then. Eye of the Beholder maybe, but I'm not familiar enough with that series and it's impact. Kyrandia was great fun, but any Lucasarts adventure stomps all over it.

Again, I am mentioning specific traits. Now you are bringing polish and genre innovation, which is fine. But I was using this to specifically counter all those people who were talking about people copying other's ideas. This is the reason I am putting Blizzard in the running, even if they didn't invent the genres they are popular in.

Taito.

As far as I am aware, many companies copied Taito's SI idea. Taito itself went on to other things. Of course, they may be getting royalties from them but w/e. The only reason I brought them up was specifically because people were crying for innovation.

Signal to noise ratio... lol. I am sure those developers that have only created one good game probably trumps everyone else huh?

Edit: and Rare should be on top too. I loved DK Country, Golden Eye, and perfect dark. I am going to be highly against SE because of their sequel heavy and un-gamey atmosphere. They remain the video game company that ventured into movies, because their "games" can be easily replaced by movies. It could be said FF:Spirit within could be their magnum opus, with its only fault not being able to skip it.

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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby Arantor » Sun May 03, 2009 12:51 am UTC

My views on best developer - I don't have a single "best" developer in mind. Each firm brought new and interesting ideas to the table.

id - For developing the concept of a 3D FPS into a usable, playable game with Wolf 3D (bear in mind it runs nicely on 286s!)

Infocom - for setting the standard which even today's interactive fiction productions are judged. (And, indirectly, responsible for the piece of [unrepeatble] that Legends of Zork is, but that wasn't their fault)

Peter Molyneux - for radical development of the god-game genre: Populous, Powermonger, Theme Park, Dungeon Keeper and Black & White games.

LucasArts - before Star Wars was the only brand they sold, they engineered a number of quality graphic adventures whose style, flair, humour and shine is only imitated, never beaten in any other game. (Then they made Monkey Island 4 and killed that part of themselves. :()

Will Wright (and formerly Maxis) - for giving us the ability to manage the larger and the smaller than we ourselves are not (Sim City, Sim Earth, Sim Life et al)

Factor 5/others - Turrican. A platform game where killing everything and getting to the end isn't the only goal.

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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby Cynical Idealist » Sun May 03, 2009 1:42 am UTC

bigstrat2003 wrote:What other developer has managed to produce nothing but sheer awesome?

CCP.
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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby Midnight » Sun May 03, 2009 5:15 am UTC

Cynical Idealist wrote:
bigstrat2003 wrote:What other developer has managed to produce nothing but sheer awesome?

CCP.


once. We already went over how one game does not make you the best developer.

I say the criteria is a combination of:
as gelsamel put it, "signal to noise ratio"
Polish

cause innovation--though important--is usually by small companies that invent things, but don't go super far with it, companies like that which made Narbuncular Drop. They innovated, but one of the oft-mentioned-in-this-thread companies, Valve, polished it up and made the very very critically acclaimed Portal.



so lets start from this:

WHO do we think has the best signal to noise ratio
WHO has the most polished games


i'll start it.
Best signal to noise ratio: Valve has released 100% (or maybe 95%) goodness. I'd say blizzard, but before 1998 or so they weren't top of the world.
Most polished: Blizzard entertainment, for reasons aforementioned.
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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby Gelsamel » Sun May 03, 2009 5:17 am UTC

Watch out you might get deleted...
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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby Tomo » Sun May 03, 2009 10:51 am UTC

Midnight wrote:
so lets start from this:

WHO do we think has the best signal to noise ratio
WHO has the most polished games


i'll start it.
Best signal to noise ratio: Valve has released 100% (or maybe 95%) goodness. I'd say blizzard, but before 1998 or so they weren't top of the world.
Most polished: Blizzard entertainment, for reasons aforementioned.


Blizzard don't make the most polished games, but they do continue to polish their games for the longest time after release, if you see what I mean. Not that isn't a brilliant thing to do, but thought I'd point that out. On the same note, I'd probably throw community support in as a criteria for best developer, although I might be shooting myself in the foot since my nomination makes console games, and thus doesn't have any :p

Valve has released a large % of top notch games, but they fall foul of the other criteria I've mentioned before, spread across genres. They pretty much make first person shooters with the same engine. I wouldn't disagree that they're the best FPS developer ever, but when we're looking at the bigger picture I have to have more respect for a developer that can branch out in many directions, rather than one that basically releases repackaged mods of its own single game. Although like, L4D is the most fun you can have with 8 people without taking your clothes off, so... :D
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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby el_loco_avs » Sun May 03, 2009 11:20 am UTC

Also, I'm kinda unsure what people mean by polish. Is it gameplay-refinement? or presentation?



Tomo wrote:My reasons for picking Rare are the huge volume of fantastic games, creation of multiple new IPs/series instead of repeated sequels and ability to create games across numerous genres without any loss in quality. At one point they had arguably the best non-simulation racing game, the best first person shooter, the best platformer, the best third person shooter and the best puzzle/action game out AT THE SAME TIME.


I was looking at the list of Rare games. The choice of games they ported to things was freaking awesome. California Games, Cabal, Pirates!. :mrgreen:
They also always seem to have a certain... colourfulness in their games. I like that.
What are the games you're referring to btw? Goldeneye, Banjo-Kazooie and?
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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby Tomo » Sun May 03, 2009 12:14 pm UTC

el_loco_avs wrote:Also, I'm kinda unsure what people mean by polish. Is it gameplay-refinement? or presentation?


I was talking about gameplay refinement, but honestly, blizzard has always been pretty good on the presentation side as well.

Tomo wrote:At one point they had arguably the best non-simulation racing game, the best first person shooter, the best platformer, the best third person shooter and the best puzzle/action game out AT THE SAME TIME.


el_loco_avs wrote:What are the games you're referring to btw? Goldeneye, Banjo-Kazooie and?


Diddy Kong Racing, Perfect Dark, Banjo Kazooie, Jet Force Gemini, Blast Corps.

Although you could make a case for MarioKart Vs DKR I suppose, and Blast Corps was a pretty niche game no-one heard of, but that's why I said arguably the best - Point being they had games of a high standard over multiple genres anywho. I probably should have put console FPS as well, but whatever. And although their hit-to-miss ratio might be slightly lower than valve, their sheer output/number of hits makes up for it imo.

Unfortunately, none of this changes the fact that they're absolutely shite nowadays, heh.
Last edited by Tomo on Sun May 03, 2009 12:15 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby Gelsamel » Sun May 03, 2009 12:15 pm UTC

Tomo wrote:Jet Force Gemini


Ahh! I was trying to remember the name of that game last week... now I can't remember why I wanted to remember it.
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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby Tomo » Sun May 03, 2009 12:18 pm UTC

Just to back up my previous point with some actual data;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ga ... d_by_Valve

~20+ games, most of them fantastic, but all are Source Engine FPS's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Rare_games
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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby headprogrammingczar » Sun May 03, 2009 1:57 pm UTC

Is there really anything wrong with running on Source though? It goes through big changes every time a new game is released, and isn't much different from the progression of the Quake engine. If you are complaining about the games being similar from the player's perspective, that would be a flat-out lie. If they are similar from a coder's perspective, who cares as long as each new version does new things?
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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby el_loco_avs » Sun May 03, 2009 2:27 pm UTC

Tomo wrote:
el_loco_avs wrote:What are the games you're referring to btw? Goldeneye, Banjo-Kazooie and?


Diddy Kong Racing, Perfect Dark, Banjo Kazooie, Jet Force Gemini, Blast Corps.

Although you could make a case for MarioKart Vs DKR I suppose, and Blast Corps was a pretty niche game no-one heard of, but that's why I said arguably the best - Point being they had games of a high standard over multiple genres anywho. I probably should have put console FPS as well, but whatever. And although their hit-to-miss ratio might be slightly lower than valve, their sheer output/number of hits makes up for it imo.

Unfortunately, none of this changes the fact that they're absolutely shite nowadays, heh.


Hehe. I decided to let that one slide. It's hard to compare cross-platform most of the time.
I mean, Halo currently has best console fps status (I think?) but it's unremarkable on the PC. I just played part 1 for the story which was okay. Great music too.
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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby Tomo » Sun May 03, 2009 3:47 pm UTC

headprogrammingczar wrote:Is there really anything wrong with running on Source though? It goes through big changes every time a new game is released, and isn't much different from the progression of the Quake engine. If you are complaining about the games being similar from the player's perspective, that would be a flat-out lie. If they are similar from a coder's perspective, who cares as long as each new version does new things?


There's absolutely nothing wrong with it, and I love valve, half life, TF2 (never got into the original much) and I've already posted about how much fun L4D is.

However, if we're talking about the best game developer ever, respect goes out to those doing multiple different things. Kinda like a musician who can play multiple instruments, or something.
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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby Cynical Idealist » Sun May 03, 2009 6:09 pm UTC

Midnight wrote:
Cynical Idealist wrote:
bigstrat2003 wrote:What other developer has managed to produce nothing but sheer awesome?

CCP.


once. We already went over how one game does not make you the best developer.

And yet, if they have produced one game that is sheer awesome, and no other games, they have produced nothing but sheer awesome.

Or would you like to point out the crap games that they have produced to break their record with EVE?
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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby headprogrammingczar » Sun May 03, 2009 7:50 pm UTC

Garry. One guy single-handedly made one of the best sandbox games ever.
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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby infernovia » Sun May 03, 2009 9:22 pm UTC

Kinda like a musician who can play multiple instruments, or something.

So bach wouldn't be in the running because he only stuck with that genre? Cuz thats pretty much what you are saying.

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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby FACM » Sun May 03, 2009 9:38 pm UTC

I haven't noticed anyone mentioning Treasure yet, and they really should be. They've got a high signal-to-noise ratio, with 2 less-than-awesome games [They had a McDonalds licensed game on the Genesis, and they're the guys that did Stretch Panic on the PS2.].

Gunstar Heroes, Guardian Heroes, Mischief Makers, Silhouette Mirage, Bangai-o, and Ikaruga* are the big names they're known for. They've got a lot of variety in the games, even for the ones sharing the same genre. They're all worth playing. This is hard to say about a lot of publishers, especially ones like Konami and Capcom that tend to make lots of derivative sequels [Symphony of the Night is an awesome game. It's also more or less been every other Castlevania game released in the last 13 years]

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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby Tomo » Sun May 03, 2009 9:52 pm UTC

infernovia wrote:So bach wouldn't be in the running because he only stuck with that genre? Cuz thats pretty much what you are saying.


Well, if Bach he'd only composed pieces for the violin rather than a full orchestra, yeah, he'd be no-where near as good as a composer who'd created a more holistic piece of music. However, it was an analogy, shown to be weak even before I spoke by my placement of "or whatever" after it. Computer games and Music are two very different things, and picking up something like this seems needlessly pedantic to me - I think the phrase served to get my point across, but if not, I'll re-iterate:

Excelling in one area of a given medium = difficult.
Excelling in multiple areas of a given medium = more difficult.

Hence I have more respect for a developer who creates within multiple genres.

Cynical Idealist wrote:And yet, if they have produced one game that is sheer awesome, and no other games, they have produced nothing but sheer awesome.

Or would you like to point out the crap games that they have produced to break their record with EVE?


Well, if you're happy to accept one-hit-wonder style developing, Tetris-guy beats CCP in pretty much every criteria you could name. Innovation? Popularity? Money? (Although to be fair Nintendo screwed him out of most of it) Number of players worldwide? Width of audience?

But still, personally I'd view someone who made 90 great games out of 100 as far more skilled than someone who made 1 great game out of 1. I'd put an analogy but infernovia might shout at me again :p
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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby infernovia » Sun May 03, 2009 10:21 pm UTC

All I am saying, is that in every single creation, we judge the people based on their understanding of the genre they devoted their life to. Like Einstein to physics, Bach to the orchestra, Jackson to his dance, ballet dancers to ballet.. etc. Sure, a variety is nice, but I wouldn't put them above those that excel in a genre. For example, treasure does very competent job with any of the genre they want to partake in but they are of a lower standard than Cave's or anyone who has a history of it.

Don't take this as an insult or anything, I am just trying to point out that while variety is the spice of the life, it has very little to do with developing a game.

I would put Rare up there just because of DK. Although their foray into the 3D was of much lower standard compared to mario.

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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby Gelsamel » Mon May 04, 2009 12:41 am UTC

Gunstar Heroes, Guardian Heroes, Mischief Makers, Silhouette Mirage, Bangai-o, and Ikaruga


That is a pretty awesome list of games. Especially Mischief Makers and Ikaruga.

Ikaruga is slightly overshadowed by Touhou though.
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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby aion7 » Mon May 04, 2009 1:57 am UTC

FACM wrote:I haven't noticed anyone mentioning Treasure yet

I did.

Treasure is so awesome, they get games in the top five for most consoles they develop for (Genesis: Dynamite Headdy, Gunstar Heroes N64: Mischief Makers and Sin and Punishment Dreamcast: Ikaruga, DS: Bangai-O Spirits, etc.)
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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby Cynical Idealist » Mon May 04, 2009 2:28 am UTC

Tomo wrote:
Cynical Idealist wrote:And yet, if they have produced one game that is sheer awesome, and no other games, they have produced nothing but sheer awesome.

Or would you like to point out the crap games that they have produced to break their record with EVE?


Well, if you're happy to accept one-hit-wonder style developing, Tetris-guy beats CCP in pretty much every criteria you could name. Innovation? Popularity? Money? (Although to be fair Nintendo screwed him out of most of it) Number of players worldwide? Width of audience?

But still, personally I'd view someone who made 90 great games out of 100 as far more skilled than someone who made 1 great game out of 1. I'd put an analogy but infernovia might shout at me again :p

Well, I'm not necessarily saying that CCP is the best game developer of all time. The post I was responding to included a challenge to name another game developer that has produced nothing but sheer awesome, so I did.
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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby Jebobek » Mon May 04, 2009 12:29 pm UTC

headprogrammingczar wrote:Garry. One guy single-handedly made one of the best sandbox games ever.
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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby aireoth » Tue May 05, 2009 8:18 pm UTC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remedy_Entertainment :shock:
I'm an adult, I can admit when I'm wrong, that is possibly the laziest developer of all time.
Also I'm sure there are many developers I'm missing or forgetting, been playing games since I got my hands on the Black Cauldron and Space Flight.

Still, gonna go with Dwarf Fort, as I'm bored with every other game, and yet have played fort for years, Sim City 4 almost beat it out, but I finally got bored of it.

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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby SJ Zero » Tue May 05, 2009 9:00 pm UTC

It's impossible for any game developer to objectively be the best. It's an inherently subjective benchmark.

Also, this whole list really is hurt by temporal distortion. I said "Valve" off the top of my head because they've got an excellent track record of well done games, many of which are in recent memory. However, the same could be easily said of 3d Realms back in their heyday, or Irrational Games back in their lifetime, and especially Black Rock, who had a few years where they were releasing some of the best games available for a PC, even today (I'm playing through Planescape Torment in my spare time, enjoying the great writing).

Then you've got developers who created a large number of hits of various calibres over a long period of time, and then there's EA, who made a lot of their greatest games by buying developers who were already working on interesting projects.

There are developers who contribute more to gaming as a medium, like Apogee/iD or Valve. Where do they fit?

I'm going to stay with Valve, in part because they helped create gaming as a storytelling medium in the way I'd been dreaming of since I first played with the BUILD engine.

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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby SOSkanesumi ARK » Wed May 06, 2009 12:36 am UTC

i think the only way to truly anser this question is to look at sales figures, wich completly destorys the question in the first place, truthfully, the only way anyone can answer this question is to have bias involved within their answer. everyone knows my stance on this, polyphony digital, but that in itself is flawed. all answers to this question are flawed and i see that now. howver, some suggestions to the answer aren't as flawed as others. Nintendo, Square Enix, Blizzard and Valve are good examples of this.
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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby FACM » Wed May 06, 2009 2:14 am UTC

SOSkanesumi ARK wrote:i think the only way to truly anser this question is to look at sales figures, wich completly destorys the question in the first place, truthfully, the only way anyone can answer this question is to have bias involved within their answer. everyone knows my stance on this, polyphony digital, but that in itself is flawed. all answers to this question are flawed and i see that now. howver, some suggestions to the answer aren't as flawed as others. Nintendo, Square Enix, Blizzard and Valve are good examples of this.


Judging things by money isn't all that fair either. Highest grossing movie of all time is Gone With The Wind*, and by most modern standards that movie's terrible. Shame how visual media don't stand up over time the way written ones do, but that's not remotely relevant to this thread.

I don't know how to answer the rest of your post. It seems to be summarized as 'there's no right answer', and the only reply to that is 'then why post at all?', but I don't think thats what you meant to say.


*: Adjusted for inflation. It's biased towards modern movies if you don't, and we don't want bias here.

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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby SOSkanesumi ARK » Wed May 06, 2009 2:58 am UTC

yeah, i guess. but still, i could have made it "so who do YOU think is the best game developer of all time" and it would have been fine.
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Re: best game developer of all time

Postby Voco » Wed May 06, 2009 5:32 am UTC

So how has only one person so far mentioned (and indirectly at that) Tim Cain?

Fallout 1 and 2? Arcanum? Vampire: The Masquerade-- Bloodlines?

Sure, these games were buggy. The mechanics were often sloppy and generic, but the games... the games were somehow still great. Perhaps it's just my personal prejudice here: the design choices made for those games read pretty much like my wishlist for the perfect game.

But they were buggy. If we are talking development studios, Troika can't stand up to Blizzard or whoever. But as a developer, Tim Cain's touch has transformed what would otherwise be laughably terrible games into classic gems. They've got no polish and play more like early betas than gold releases, but they're early betas of REALLY GOOD GAMES.

His projects are the exact opposite of Blizzard, in fact. Blizzard makes REALLY polished games, with a huge budget and the balance, artwork and code all twerked just right. They're passable games built upon a fantastically enjoyable system. Tim Cain's games are fantastic, but built upon a shoddy system. I don't think anyone played Fallout thinking "Man, fighting raiders sure is fun! I hope I can skip the story parts and get back to distributing action points!"

So tally one vote for Tim Cain as best developer, though he has not been employed by the most fantastic development studios yet.


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