The Wii, Nintendo, and their Audience - Philosophical Musing

Of the Tabletop, and other, lesser varieties.

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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby Gelsamel » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:27 am UTC

Amnesiasoft wrote:There were 2 things I disliked about that article

Wii Sports is a game stuffed with complexity (of its physics), replay value, and many game modes.

1) I'm not sure what version of Wii sports he was playing, but I certainly didn't see what I call "many" games modes, or much replay value (Seriously, in the baseball game there are about 8 different possible outcomes, I could predict *exactly* what would happen from any one hit after very little playtime).

2) If I recall at some point in the article he mentions that the "hardcore" games are the ones that make the money. If that is the case, why can't people make a push downstream using the "hardcore" market to fund them, he never even seems to acknowledge that as a possible outcome. That's not to say people are doing it, they don't seem to be, but he doesn't even seem to mention the possibility of such a thing.


1) Wii sports has a lot of game modes compared to any other game out there (after all, it is a sport game and has lots of different sports) It's replay value doesn't lie in the games themselves but in the multiplayer (I believe, anyway).

2) I don't recall that but I may be wrong. In fact he seems to suggest that totally dominating the "Blue Ocean" is much more profitable than going straight to the top tiers. I think he said that people THINK that going to straight where the money is is the most profitable way, but not that that is the case.

Also he mentions that the Wiimote and Touch Screen have nothing to do with Nintendos success and he does mention it's the software not the hardware that people want.
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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby Edawan » Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:39 am UTC

Wow, that was the most insightful article I've read in a long time.
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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby JayDee » Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:13 pm UTC

Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed isn't quite the right way to put it. As this article (and the others on the site) say, they haven't exactly been secretive about it. I found them good reading, largely because of the plentiful quotes. On the other hand I agree with this:
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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby Amnesiasoft » Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:54 pm UTC

Gelsamel wrote:Also he mentions that the Wiimote and Touch Screen have nothing to do with Nintendos success and he does mention it's the software not the hardware that people want.

I didn't say it did, I just said there's a trainwreck coming from the people who equate "different" to "innovative."

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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby Pai » Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:49 pm UTC

JayDee wrote:Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed isn't quite the right way to put it. As this article (and the others on the site) say, they haven't exactly been secretive about it.

Well he also mentions almost everyone seems to totally miss it.

His other articles are equally good reads, he has a whole series on the 'Blue Ocean' principles.
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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby nsmjohn » Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:53 pm UTC

He also linked to a video which shows the progression of Nintendo's market share in Japan. I really hope Microsoft and Sony get a clue and do not let this happen. I personally like the highend games that come out on their systems.

Pai, excellent find on the article; it was a damn good read.
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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby Pai » Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:51 pm UTC

nsmjohn wrote:He also linked to a video which shows the progression of Nintendo's market share in Japan. I really hope Microsoft and Sony get a clue and do not let this happen. I personally like the highend games that come out on their systems.


I don't think they can stop it, frankly. The paradigm shift has already started. If you read all of the Blue Ocean Articles, it's really hard to see how it could be stopped, it's just fighting a losing front. I don't think the shift will really destroy the highend, but it's still going to fundamentally change it. Which may be just as bad, to some people.
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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby poleboy » Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:05 pm UTC

That was quite a fascinating read.
While I agree with the basic premise of the article - casual gaming does not really exist - I find it hard to believe that Nintendo are the only who has caught on to this. I think he is quite obviously ignoring the fact that Nintendo is the only major player on the games market today who has been around since the 80's. Nintendo has both vast amounts of cash (the Super Mario franchise alone could keep a small country running for years) and years, even decades more experience than Microsoft or Sony in this field. From what I can surmise from the article, Nintendo is using a pretty simple and straight-forward business strategy that's well known to economists and market analysts. I don't think third party developers and Nintendo's competitors are as stupid as he tries to make them out to be - they simply lack the experience that Nintendo has in making games and marketing them the right way. That and Nintendo have always been very possessive about their hardware and what people were allowed to release for it - something that might scare off third party developers.

With that said, I have to admit that the Nintendo fanboy in me is getting a little giddy. Since "hard-core" is how clever analysts would probably describe my gaming habits, I've had serious doubts about Nintendo for a while. My Wii hasn't been powered on for months, and I was beginning to suspect that it was simply the wrong machine for me. However, the steadily growing quality and selection of DS games as well as the promised high-tier games that are supposedly on the way for the Wii makes me think that I made the right decision after all. A few years from now, when we are drowning in the zombie-like tide of mindless "casusal" and "hardcore" games and all hope seems lost, there is no one I would rather have watching my back than Nintendo.

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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby JayDee » Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:47 pm UTC

Pai wrote:His other articles are equally good reads, he has a whole series on the 'Blue Ocean' principles.

Yeah, that's where I got the 'For the Love of God, the metaphors, make them stop!' quote.
poleboy wrote:Since "hard-core" is how clever analysts would probably describe my gaming habits, I've had serious doubts about Nintendo for a while. My Wii hasn't been powered on for months, and I was beginning to suspect that it was simply the wrong machine for me.

Heh. I stopped thinking myself in the hardcore catagory a while back, reading this article reminded me of the reasons why. Although I'm still not sure about lumping game difficulty in with the other 'obstacles' to gaming.
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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby Pai » Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:10 am UTC

JayDee wrote:Heh. I stopped thinking myself in the hardcore catagory a while back, reading this article reminded me of the reasons why. Although I'm still not sure about lumping game difficulty in with the other 'obstacles' to gaming.


I think there is a difference between accessibility and difficulty. A game that is easy to pick up the basics of, and easy to have a shallow level of enjoyment from at the start, but has many layers of depth that you can go on to experience once you've mastered the basics, is different from a game that's is just complicated to learn and difficult to be good at/enjoy unless you've fully grasped all of that complexity from the start. That 'barrier' is the thing that discourages people who are not already skilled in certain game mechanics from playing that game or feeling like it could be something they'd enjoy.
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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby aion7 » Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:06 am UTC

That was possibly the best article I have ever read anywhere ever. That puts it over everything on Cracked.com, in The New Yorker, The Funny Times, and, well, everywhere.

This man is a genius. I can only hope that he gets the fame he deserves when what he says turns out to be true.

He did state, not all third parties are oblivious to this, and proved it quite well. A few examples I can come up with off the top of my head are Dice and Ubisoft (well, parts of it). Let me use myself, and a friend of mine as examples. I would be considered a "hardcore gamer" because I play games at any chance I can get, and many of the games I play are complex (higher tiers). My friend might be described as "casual" because he doesn't play video games as often, and doesn't normally play games that are as high tiers as, say, Civilization, or Sacred. We can still have a lot of fun playing games like Contra, Bad Dudes, Super Smash Bros., Rock Band, and even Super Mario Galaxy together. Perhaps this isn't the best example a he plays some higher tier games (Like, say Mass Effect), but the point comes across. Now, what does this have to do with Dice and Ubisoft? All I've done so far is agreed, and praised Harmonix for creating a great "gateway" experience (which definitely gets its share of birdmen). Well first let me talk about Ubisoft. Specifically Rayman. Let me start out by saying that I absolutely loved the first Rayman. The second was good, but not as good, and I didn't play much of the third. Now, when Raving Rabbids was on the horizon, I thought, cool, Rayman, I might want that eventually. I did ,buy it eventually. I played it with my sister (older) for a little, and she has had no gaming experience besides The Sims and Harvest Moon (Gamecube), which she barely played, in the last ten years or so. We had fun. It eventually got boring for me (except for the rail shooter stages. Those are pure brilliance.) and it isn't played much any more, but it had the right idea. It was hilarious to all those playing and watching. No, it wasn't the first minigame collection, but it did have it's own, unique sense of fun to it. As for Dice, what do we know them for? Huge online goodness. That's great, if you have a bit of experience with the genre, but not very accessible. What's coming up? Battlefield Heroes and Mirrors Edge. Holy crap! Those aren't huge online goodness! Battlefield heroes is practically the definition of a "gateway" game (or looks like it will be, and is being marketed as such). If I had never played an online shooter, I would still be excited for it. The graphics a crisp and have a nice style (which is not the same as TF2. The styles are actually quite different, as should be evident to anyone who pays attention.). The effects and sounds are comical and satisfying. Customization let's you be who you want to be in the game, which, I think is very important, especially to people who play games on lower tiers. Hey, cool, you can rank up and get to be able to do cool stuff (gateway to RPGs). That way it isn't repetitive. Free? I'll definitely try this, at least for a little while. Then they get hooked, spend a little money on it, and search for other games in the same genres, looking for what they liked in that one. Now, Mirror's Edge. "But this doesn't look casual at all. If anything, it looks very hardcore. The casual audiences will be scared off by the immersive plot and gameplay. It's too complex." Actually, that's not true. It has (will have) simple controls (as shown in the most recent interview), and a unique hook. Who hasn't wanted to run around on rooftops and fight bad guys as a kid?

More third parties catch on every time this is proved. Analysts have always been full of shit. We all know that. If you don't believe it, just check the past. They thought Sega would kill Sony. Look what happened there. Who benefits when the third parties catch on? They do, of course. They make a lot of money. Nintendo does. Their strategy starts to work faster. But most of all, us Wii owners benefit. You think the Wii is hard to find now? Just wait till third parties start coming out with games better than some of Nintendo's stuff for the Wii.
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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby Vaniver » Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:46 am UTC

I agree that the birdmen analogy is good (and unsurprisingly not his). If you look at GTA and see guns, sex, and violence instead of a freeform RPG, your clone might look the same but it'll be soulless, and consumers can tell.

I think the next strongest part of the article, though, is about the development teams. A casual game made by a fourth string team will not succeed, because no game made by a fourth string team will succeed. The point is not to have dumb games- the point is to have games with lower barriers to entry. Not understanding the difference will result in failure.

But in the end it boils down to "respect your customers"- which is not surprising advice or new advice.
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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby Pai » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:58 am UTC

Vaniver wrote:But in the end it boils down to "respect your customers"- which is not surprising advice or new advice


And that exposes the problem with most major game design companies assuming that only the hardcore are 'real' gamers (and their only 'real' potential customers). They're cutting themselves off at the knees and facilitating the further stagnation of their own hobby by refusing to consider encouraging new blood via 'gateway games' as a viable strategy for success. Nintendo is showing them how wrong they were.
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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby Poochy » Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:31 pm UTC

I'll admit I only skimmed the article instead of thoroughly reading it, but I think there's at least one factor that I didn't see mentioned: Companies trying to make a quick buck for as little effort as possible. This is why they're birdmen (to steal the article's analogy) to begin with. They can't be bothered to actually make something new, so they just jump on the latest bandwagon and try to mimic someone else's success. But, once again, since they're trying to "cut costs" and spend as little effort as possible, they just end up producing a hollow piece of junk.

It's not just the gaming industry, either. In the US, Who Wants to be a Millionaire? was followed by other networks yelling "Big bucks, no Whammies!" and hoping to score a hit with their own attempts at high-stakes game shows. And the success of Survivor also spawned about 11 bajillion reality shows. Then Deal or No Deal came along, proved to be another hit, and was followed by another flood of high-stakes game shows.

Basically, failing companies, get a stinkin' work ethic.
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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby Toeofdoom » Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:53 pm UTC

Poochy wrote:I'll admit I only skimmed the article instead of thoroughly reading it, but I think there's at least one factor that I didn't see mentioned...


You may not have seen it, but it was certaintly there. That was responded to with a statement of "There is no easy money in this industry"

Or something like that, but it was there.
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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby Clumpy » Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:34 pm UTC

This is an interesting article for somebody like me who loves a good obtuse math-based RPG but thinks that Wario Ware was the coolest thing ever. On the other hand, games with feature diarrhea but no backbone (I'm looking at you Tales of Symphonia, battle system notwithstanding) don't stand a chance by my standards.

I think I started realizing the BS of the current way of thinking when I realized that, properly played, Insaniquarium is anything but casual. C'mon - the sucker had me downloading autofeeders and going through pages of guides and schedules; it was like Animal Crossing all over again!

Usually I disagree with game-related articles claiming in very specific ways that the current way of thinking is bull and needs to be revamped, but I don't have a single picking point with this article.

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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby lowbart » Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:02 pm UTC

I loved this article and thought it was a really spot-on explanation of what's going on.

One thing I kind of picked up from it was this:

Premise: Nintendo is working to dominate the downmarket by drawing more people into gaming who would normally be disinterested. (Nintendogs, Wii Sports etc)

2. With the Zapper and Wheel (which I can't resist calling the Wiil), Nintendo is gradually trying to coax these new downmarket gamers into more complex and sophisticated games - leading them in an upmarket direction.

So?

3. Obviously only a few of these gamers will be led farther up the pyramid, but eventually there will be more people who can appreciate the most complex games (like Space Empires, as opposed to stupid games like Halo 3), which in my opinion is a very good thing :D


I've also been hearing a lot about Blizzard moving up to overtake EA as the dominant publisher... that would be a very good thing as well.
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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby Endless Mike » Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:33 pm UTC

Interesting article, and abundantly obvious to anyone paying attention. The major concern is that the big publishers are a little too stuck in their ways to really fund games that may not sell as well, but at the same time we get things like Boom Blox which is one of the best Wii titles, and it's not from Nintendo. The indie studios are at too much a disadvantage to really get anything on a retail shelf, but download services make that much easier.

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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby janusx » Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:41 pm UTC

When I first started reading the article it sounded a lot like another (albit creative) bashing of "casual games", and I became pretty skeptical of it's content. However, not long after the article seemed to take off and I'm very impressed at the author's insight. The number one thing to note when reading it is the author's definition of "casual game" especially near the begging of the article isn't necessarily what comes to my mind when I think of casual games. Getting past that however again I must say amazing article and I think it is highly accurate.

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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby Iori_Yagami » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:31 am UTC

The phrase 'hardcore gamer', or, especially, 'serious gamer' makes my belly explode with laughter! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
OTOH, I feel so uninformed... If you are older than 20 and play games, then ... 'ahem'; if you are older than 30... then..., uh..., screw it, I no longer understand the world anymore... :shock:
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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby Narsil » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:44 pm UTC

Clumpy wrote:On the other hand, games with feature diarrhea but no backbone (I'm looking at you Tales of Symphonia, battle system notwithstanding) don't stand a chance by my standards.
Either elaborate or start running.
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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby Gelsamel » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:03 pm UTC

Narsil wrote:
Clumpy wrote:On the other hand, games with feature diarrhea but no backbone (I'm looking at you Tales of Symphonia, battle system notwithstanding) don't stand a chance by my standards.
Either elaborate or start running.


I was going to call him out about that, since I can explain how the features in ToS matter, but I thought "fuck it" but now that you have I'll voice my agreement with Narsil.
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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby Belial » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:37 pm UTC

Iori_Yagami wrote:OTOH, I feel so uninformed... If you are older than 20 and play gameswatch movies, then ... 'ahem'; if you are older than 30... then..., uh..., screw it, I no longer understand the world anymore... :shock:


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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby Gojoe » Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:11 am UTC

I play both hardcore and casual games. I am a hardcore gamer ( I have all 5 current gen consoles (this includes handhelds ) but i still spend time playing things like WarioWare and the like... What category do i fit in?
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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby smartalco » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:58 am UTC

I am going to say

a. this article is spot on, I posted a link to it on the ArsTechnica battlefront, it is sure to be flamed into oblivion, but maybe a few people who have otherwise been screaming 'Wii is a fad' will see why they are wrong

b. I further differentiate between 'accessibility' and 'complexity', for instance, Animal Crossing, very accessibility (you are basically a cartoon avatar, running around with animals, and you only have like 5 different things you can do), but can be very complex (getting a perfect town rating? better grab some graph paper)
same with Pokemon (GBA games, screw things like XD)

I am watching an episode of Psych and completely forgot where I'm going with this...

so ya, article, good one

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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby Endless Mike » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:31 pm UTC

Pokemon is actually not very accessible. It's a really old-school JRPG packaged in a cute game when you get down to it.

Anyone claiming the Wii is a fad is an idiot. Fads do not last two years at $250 with no signs of slowing down.

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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby Jebobek » Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:33 pm UTC

One sign of trying to push games up the pyramid of sophistication is through games like Heroes of Mana and Revanant wings. Flawed as they are, they are RTS's that guide people towards more "Hardcore" RTS's like Starcraft.

I want to see them work on RTS's for the Wii, so that Wii2 will come out with the perfected software. 4-player co-op on one screen, anyone? They're already working on this point-click co-op in their Wii-ware, like Dr. Mario's Virus Buster. I'd like to see me and my friends working together to spawn millions of Zerg forces on a well-made Starcraft-Wii.
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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby Mo0man » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:35 pm UTC

Gojoe wrote:I play both hardcore and casual games. I am a hardcore gamer ( I have all 5 current gen consoles (this includes handhelds ) but i still spend time playing things like WarioWare and the like... What category do i fit in?

Rich.
Especially when you take into account that NZers get constantly buttsexxed by price gouging in the game industry. Of course, that's neither here nor there.

Anyways, I'm not sure if Wii is or isn't a fad, but I'm pretty sure that Wii owners, the ones that enjoy the HC games are getting screwed over by the complete lack of caring on the part of Nintendo. I mean, FIX THE DAMN ONLINE PLAY AND GET A HARD DRIVE NINTENDO! Just cause I love Zelda and got a Wii shouldn't mean that I get screwed over hard on the other stuff. It's like they completely ignore anyone who isn't 5 or a soccer mom
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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby grythyttan » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:09 pm UTC

I think that was one of the points the article made. They focus on "lower tier" games for the moment, but they are steadily working their way upwards and bringing the people who are new to gaming with them. When enough people have reached the tier when more advanced features are required, the features will be released. In the meantime, the hardcore gamers might play xbox or ps3. But when Nintendo reaches the hardcore tier together with the new hardcore gamers they created the previous generation of hardcore gamers will return because by then, their kind of games will be released.

...I think...

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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:50 pm UTC

Gojoe wrote:I play both hardcore and casual games. I am a hardcore gamer ( I have all 5 current gen consoles (this includes handhelds ) but i still spend time playing things like WarioWare and the like... What category do i fit in?

The "Likes to play games that don't suck" category.
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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby DYRE » Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:43 pm UTC

grythyttan wrote:I think that was one of the points the article made. They focus on "lower tier" games for the moment, but they are steadily working their way upwards and bringing the people who are new to gaming with them. When enough people have reached the tier when more advanced features are required, the features will be released. In the meantime, the hardcore gamers might play xbox or ps3. But when Nintendo reaches the hardcore tier together with the new hardcore gamers they created the previous generation of hardcore gamers will return because by then, their kind of games will be released.

...I think...

I think it's that point that I really disagree with in the article. I don't really feel like Nintendo will ever make "higher tier" games. Or at least, make enough of them so that they stop being known primarily for their mascots and super-accessible games (i.e. watered-down gameplay). It seems like there's no way that they would abandon that large portion of their customer base. Because, while the article is saying that as Nintendo works its way up to the "higher-tier" games, the customers will be able to follow (because they'd been playing Nintendo's other games), then they would be neglecting the people who were not originally part of their use base, but would now (at the time they begin to move to higher-tier) fall into their target audience as of now.

Wow. I don't actually think this makes any sense. Sorry about that if it doesn't. But, I'm posting it anyway 'cause maybe it'll make sense to someone.

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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby aion7 » Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:26 am UTC

DYRE wrote:I don't really feel like Nintendo will ever make "higher tier" games. Or at least, make enough of them so that they stop being known primarily for their mascots and super-accessible games (i.e. watered-down gameplay). It seems like there's no way that they would abandon that large portion of their customer base.


Or at least, make enough of them so that they stop being known primarily for their mascots and super-accessible games (i.e. watered-down gameplay)


super-accessible games (i.e. watered-down gameplay)


Way to miss half of the article there.
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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby Pai » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:54 pm UTC

DYRE wrote:I don't really feel like Nintendo will ever make "higher tier" games. Or at least, make enough of them so that they stop being known primarily for their mascots and super-accessible games (i.e. watered-down gameplay). It seems like there's no way that they would abandon that large portion of their customer base. Because, while the article is saying that as Nintendo works its way up to the "higher-tier" games, the customers will be able to follow (because they'd been playing Nintendo's other games), then they would be neglecting the people who were not originally part of their use base, but would now (at the time they begin to move to higher-tier) fall into their target audience as of now.


You're assuming they'd stop making lower tier games altogether in order to wean people upwards. The High and Low tiers are not mutually exclusive.

The entire point of the article was that once consoles focused only on hardcore games, they contributed to the stagnation of the industry by having too many barriers making it difficult anyone not already into hardcore gaming to get drawn into the hobby. Nintendo is not making that mistake over again. The hardcore is a minority demographic (albeit with an unproportional influence on the industry as a whole) and they're not going to be as important to the gaming industry in the future. Nintendo has succeeded because it's realized this fact while the other two consoles have been too busy trying to win the 'hardcore gamer e-peen contest' that is all about uber hardware specs. Nintendo has proven that the majority of the market doesn't care about that. And they're raking in the cash accordingly.
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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby Yusuke » Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:34 pm UTC

Pai wrote:You're assuming they'd stop making lower tier games altogether in order to wean people upwards. The High and Low tiers are not mutually exclusive.

Though one does wonder how many "1st tier" teams Nintendo has to develop both types of games.

Granted, this is Nintendo, so they likely have a number that's above average (possibly very much so), but still, what games do you suppose Nintendo's 3rd or 4th tier teams are working on?

I don't have an answer to that question, just musing.
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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby Pai » Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:25 am UTC

Nintendo isn't the only studio that's capable of making games for the Wii.
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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby Mo0man » Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:25 pm UTC

Pai wrote:Nintendo isn't the only studio that's capable of making games for the Wii.

They aren't, but isn't it the third developer's responsibility to try to get into the market? I mean Nintendo already has more teams working on higher tier games than lower tier games.
Lets put it down to a count. They've got separate teams for Zelda, Mario, Pikmin, (I think) That new Wario Platformer, Metroid.
Wheras it seems to me, based on the, what 6 months between the Wii (Blank) games, they've got one or two only.
Course, this is only guesswork, but you can sorta see my point
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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby segmentation fault » Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:17 pm UTC

the problem is that both the "casual" and the "hardcore" games suck.
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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby roc314 » Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:32 am UTC

segmentation fault wrote:the problem is that both the "casual" and the "hardcore" games suck.


Cite thyself or prepare to be mass-flamed by the might of our fandom!

True, some do suck, but some are excellent. Brawl and Galaxy stand out here. What/why specifically are you saying sucks?

Is it even relevant to Nintendo's business plans if their games "suck"? I mean, really all the matters is that they sell and that people will come back for more games. If they can continually sell games of low quality, does it really matter as long as they sell? That is what businesses are all about.
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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby segmentation fault » Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:17 pm UTC

roc314 wrote:Is it even relevant to Nintendo's business plans if their games "suck"? I mean, really all the matters is that they sell and that people will come back for more games. If they can continually sell games of low quality, does it really matter as long as they sell? That is what businesses are all about.


i know this and it only enrages me further. they have quite a successful share of the handheld market though. the wii was, for me at least, supposed to be the second coming of jesus, but it isnt. the DS may be that, but we just dont know it, or care.

the first party nintendo games have been...lacking. TP was okay but not very good for a zelda game. prime 3 was better than 2 but nowhere near 1 (or super metroid for that matter). i find myself not playing brawl as much as i should. kart is fun. galaxy was good but not as great as i had planned. and the games that consist of mii based mini games...its getting real old real quick.

and the only 3rd party game i liked so far is no more heroes. theres some other 3rd parties coming out that look interesting (de blob, conduit...), but the overall selection of games is saturated by the mediocre.
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Re: Nintendo's Master Plan Revealed

Postby roc314 » Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:59 pm UTC

segmentation fault wrote:
and the only 3rd party game i liked so far is no more heroes. theres some other 3rd parties coming out that look interesting (de blob, conduit...), but the overall selection of games is saturated by the mediocre.


No More Heroes is amazing.

I've noticed that on every system for every period of time, "the overall selection of games is saturated by the mediocre." There are good games, you just have to look and be patient. I actually noticed this with both the DS and Wii: for up to about a year after the initial release of a console, there are very few quality games. Once you get past that mark, you start to see some (read: very few) good games.

It's not like the other systems don't have this problem. The PS3 has maybe one great game for it (Metal Gear Solid 4), while, in my opinion, the only worthwhile buy for the X-box is the Orange Box. The sad truth is that any popular medium is supersaturated with shit. There are occasion gems, but they are hard to find on any system.

segmentation fault wrote:the first party nintendo games have been...lacking. TP was okay but not very good for a zelda game. prime 3 was better than 2 but nowhere near 1 (or super metroid for that matter). i find myself not playing brawl as much as i should. kart is fun. galaxy was good but not as great as i had planned. and the games that consist of mii based mini games...its getting real old real quick.


I wonder how much of our dislike of newer games comes from nostalgia? I've noticed that a lot of people (including me) think that the original is better, but I wonder if we first played the original and new at the same time, which we would prefer?

All that being said, I'm glad that Nintendo is at least trying to expand the market to more people. The more who play, the more games that will be made. Sure, a lot more shit will be made, but we will also have a few more of those quality games.
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