Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Of the Tabletop, and other, lesser varieties.

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Belial
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Belial » Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:48 pm UTC

So, basically, they required paladins to act like cops.

That's not unreasonable.

It just turns out your friends are absolutely shitty cops.

It's true you can't just break into a suspect's house and shoot them in the head. But at the same time, you don't break into their house and tap them on the shoulder until they wake up, either: that's a good way to get yourself shot, in a way that's no one's fault but your own. You alert them to your presence from a safe distance and give them a chance to comply peacefully.

I mean, it's not like the moral code jumped out of the bushes and surprised them mid-scene. Given that they were aware of these restrictions, it's not too hard to scrape three brain cells together and think "Oh hey, am I putting these sentients in a position where even a good person would kill me in self defense? Maybe I shouldn't do that...."

The problem: it lies not with the moral code, but with the sheer idiocy of the people applying it.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Decker » Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:55 pm UTC

In all fairness to the DM, I did fumble two diplomacy checks in a row.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:21 pm UTC

The paladin code is strict, but it's not absolute in the sense that every possible situation has only one response. In that situation, where someone who is admittedly non-Good (a good paladin understands that that's not reason enough to attack, but it certainly raises suspicion) starts attacking someone who you're sure is not only your sworn leader, but a capital-g Good guy, then you're going to respond. Sure, maybe it would be "better" to respond nonlethally, but I wouldn't make a paladin fall for responding lethally in the heat of the moment.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Bulvox » Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:27 pm UTC

So, after looking at the Complete Arcane book (v3.5), I became intrigued with the Master Transmogrifist. I find it better than a Wild shape-focused Druid. The main combat form for it would be the Hydras, just for the sheer number of attacks that it gets, but I'll also need some utility forms and was wondering if there were any monsters that I should look at.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Ixtellor » Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:36 pm UTC

Belial wrote:The problem: it lies not with the moral code, but with the sheer idiocy of the people applying it.
.


Maybe you can shed some light on, what exactly your point was.

In discussing a game played for the sole purpose of having fun, mostly by kids, it seems as if your trying to apply some sort of rule or metric based on an anecdotal description of another poster.

Are you actually insinuating that a bunch of 14 year old kids, who an attempt to have fun role-playing, while introducing their application of a Dragon Magazine article on what it means to be a paladin, are applying it incorrectly?

I was always in the school of thought, that there is no wrong or idiotic way to play D&D, provided the participants are having fun.

Or were you talking about real world police... ?


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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby TaintedDeity » Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:42 pm UTC

Hey, Belial didn't say being an idiot wasn't fun.
Just don't blame the idiocy on the moral code.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Azrael001 » Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:52 pm UTC

Before I took some levels in Greyguard I'd captured a Drow soldier and was trying to convert him. It didn't work for some reason.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Belial » Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:09 pm UTC

TaintedDeity wrote:Hey, Belial didn't say being an idiot wasn't fun.
Just don't blame the idiocy on the moral code.


Precisely. They didn't die because they had a stupid moral code, as you seemed to imply. They died because they used their moral code stupidly. They failed to think about how it would limit their actions in a given situation *before* waltzing into said situation, and that's really not the code's fault.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Jessica » Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:30 pm UTC

Actually, I like that moral code for paladins...

For example, in the Goblins example: You and your party surround the camp, and then the paladin screams out "You are surrounded. Put your weapons down and no one gets hurt." If that doesn't work, and they come after you, you can kill them.

Or, you can arrest your fellow party members if you think they're doing something evil. "I'm sorry sir, but you're going to have to come with me. You need to spend a night in lockdown awaiting trial." Have lots of magic rope, and use it to tie people up.

Or, you can get your crew to specialize in non-lethal weapons, and spells. Sleep, paralyze, disorient. Saps for the rogues, lots of armour/tower shields on the warriors and paladins. Tanglefoot bags. Every time you encounter someone, you have to tie them up, and send them back to town to be prosecuted.

sounds fun :D And if your team doesn't want to see things your way when you start, then you report them at the first town and leave. "I'm sorry, I can't have a partner who throws away the book whenever they go out!"

You could even go buddy cop on them, with the paladin being the good cop, and the rogue being the chaotic good bad cop. Never quite breaking the law, but bending it.

God, I want to play in this campaign now.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Ixtellor » Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:40 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
TaintedDeity wrote:Hey, Belial didn't say being an idiot wasn't fun.
Just don't blame the idiocy on the moral code.


Precisely. They didn't die because they had a stupid moral code, as you seemed to imply. They died because they used their moral code stupidly. They failed to think about how it would limit their actions in a given situation *before* waltzing into said situation, and that's really not the code's fault.


Stupid, illogicial, moral codes... when applied to a fantasy world in which 14 year old kids are trying to have fun through the power of imagination.... are meaningless.

I don't understand why your 'defending' some made up moral code that was specific to a particular set of teenagers interpretation in the 1980's, based on their current life experiences and interpretations of a wide array of FANTASY texts.

It seems like you took your own interpretation of an anecdotal 'moral code' in a fantasy world and somehow tried to apply meaning to it, or your own moral preconceptions of how it should have been, or what it 'should' have been like.

It's tantamount to saying "Trolls would never behave like that". Or "My interpretation of a made up thing is... "

I don't know what D&D is like today, but 'moral codes' were subject to unlimited freedom and imagination in my D&D days.


Jessica wrote:God, I want to play in this campaign now.


My group always had fun with putting Paladins in weird situations that called for alternative to solutions, as opposed to our previous way of "kill monster, get treasure" (Which was highly entertaining from about 4th to 9th grade).


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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Decker » Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:51 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:Are you actually insinuating that a bunch of 14 year old kids, who an attempt to have fun role-playing, while introducing their application of a Dragon Magazine article on what it means to be a paladin, are applying it incorrectly?

Ixtellor wrote:Stupid, illogicial, moral codes... when applied to a fantasy world in which 14 year old kids are trying to have fun through the power of imagination.... are meaningless.

Er...I don't know about you, but no one in my group of six is under 21 years old. The DM is a Vietnam vet.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Ixtellor » Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:04 pm UTC

Decker wrote:Er...I don't know about you, but no one in my group of six is under 21 years old. The DM is a Vietnam vet.
.


1) My friends still play a few times per year. They are all over the age of 36 now with several in their 40's.. Including a college professor, a lawyer, one of the head programmers in the new Star Wars Defense Initiative. (They have a new name), and several other professionals. (I don't really care to play any longer, I find it requires far too much time to reach a level I find enjoyable or rewarding)

2) I was talking specifically about my group when we were all around 13-17. These were the authors of the 'moral code' context Belial felt he needed to defend. (Stupid kids!)

3) Do you feel that a stranger who knows nothing about your gaming group is qualified to criticizing the way any of your members choose to play this fantasy game? Admittedly, it would be weirder for a group of 20 somethings to have the immaturity level of High school freshman, but I still don't think any outsider could tell you whats 'correct' and whats 'stupid' in terms of your particular fantasy world.


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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Decker » Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:11 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:2) I was talking specifically about my group when we were all around 13-17.

I misunderstood then. My apologies.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Ixtellor » Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:13 pm UTC

Decker wrote:
Ixtellor wrote:2) I was talking specifically about my group when we were all around 13-17.

I misunderstood then. My apologies.


You have no need to apologize, you do anything that would require one. I am glad to have clarified.

I think I stopped playing around the age of 23-24. Those last years were very enjoyable.


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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:41 am UTC

My favorite part of D&D as a DM is the interesting unplanned situations that happen. Such as raising the question, "Is your friend literally worth his weight in gold?"

Story:
Spoiler:
The party had had one death and put the body in a bag of holding. They entered a dragon's cave which had statues that animated only if you damaged or stole something. They tied up all the statues then grabbed a bunch of loot and ran for it. The statues we're breaking free and they were filling the bag of holding from a literal mountain of gold and it got full. So they dumped out everything that wasn't gold...
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Belial » Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:26 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:I don't understand why your 'defending' some made up moral code that was specific to a particular set of teenagers interpretation in the 1980's, based on their current life experiences and interpretations of a wide array of FANTASY texts.


Uhh...because it's a code that made perfect sense. And one I've seen used for paladins before (usually in settings that use them, as I said, like super-cops). And you were implying it didn't make sense. And your justification was "look at these situations that people got into by not thinking about their code's limitations before acting". Which is, again, not a problem with the code. Do I need a better reason?

Now, granted, what you left out was that they weren't thinking ahead because they were 13 and not very experienced. Okay. Great. I wasn't terribly trying to rate their IQ or have them sterilized for intellectual deficiency. I was just pointing out where things went wrong.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Yakk » Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:16 pm UTC

Belial wrote:Now, granted, what you left out was that they weren't thinking ahead because they were 13 and not very experienced. Okay. Great. I wasn't terribly trying to rate their IQ or have them sterilized for intellectual deficiency.

D'oh.

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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Ixtellor » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:07 pm UTC

Belial wrote:Uhh...because it's a code that made perfect sense. And one I've seen used for paladins before (usually in settings that use them, as I said, like super-cops). And you were implying it didn't make sense


I wasn't implying 'it didn't make sense', I was just commenting on one particular group with their own made up FANTASY codes about Paladins encountered interesting obstacles. It was fun and that was my only point.

More importantly, and what I think you fail to grasp, is that every group is going to be different and this means that all groups will make up their own FANTASY moral codes. There is no right code or wrong code for that matter. Its a fantasy game and people just make the shit up as they go along.

So for you to say "Well I used a moral code similiar to this and they are doing it wrong" is ludicrous. There is no right or wrong way to do anything in D&D. If Lawful Good Clerics in your campaign are actually Devil worshiping computer hackers who live only in the imagination of Neutral Wood elves... thats OK. Nobody has the right or standing to say your doing it wrong. Even if I were describing a group of 60 year old lawyers and judges, and not 14 year old kids, it changes nothing. Your version of 'super cop' moral codes doesn't mean anything for any other group.


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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Belial » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:19 pm UTC

Man, capitalize "Fantasy" one more time, I don't think I got it.

Being imaginary doesn't speak to whether it makes sense within the world.

And yes, it is extremely possible to speculate as to whether someone was "doing it wrong" because we're not comparing the implementation to "reality", we're comparing the character's goals (staying alive, achieving their objectives) to what actually happened (dying horribly) and why it happened that way (because they walked into the middle of a bunch of sleeping goblins and woke them when they knew full well their moral code wouldn't let them fight back). That's dumb no matter how imaginary you are, and it has nothing to do with how right or wrong the code is.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Ixtellor » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:43 pm UTC

Belial wrote:Being imaginary doesn't speak to whether it makes sense within the world.


Yes, but it only has to make sense to the creators of the unique fantasy world. Outside views are too far removed from the circumstances and group dynamics to speak intelligently about any other groups play style. I think you can agree that what is logical to you and me is not applicable to any other groups choices.

If it helps alleviate your worries, the Paladin was in a group of neutrals, who led him into that situation. That old group scrapped the whole 'paladins can only adventure with neutrals once' rules.


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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Xanthir » Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:22 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote: the whole 'paladins can only adventure with neutrals once' rules.

Wait, what?
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Ixtellor » Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:46 pm UTC

Xanthir wrote:
Ixtellor wrote: the whole 'paladins can only adventure with neutrals once' rules.

Wait, what?


In one of the old official books (not sure which, played since Basic) it said Paladins can never adventure with evil aligned party members, and can only adventure once with neutral aligned party members one time. For who know why, my old group pretty much followed that rule during all our playing days, with the exception that we interpreted 'one time' liberally where the 'adventure' could be an epic one and thus cover tons of gaming sessions. But eventually we justified that the party had to break up because of moral conflicts with the paladins code. "Its been nice, but I don't approve of ____ and I wish you the best of luck... blah blah".


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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Klapaucius » Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:48 pm UTC

Has anyone played Evangelist? I'm planning to try out a prestige class from Complete Divine, and they all seem fun. Ruleswise, I'm sure they're all a fair shake worse than cleric (because it's a cleric), but the roleplaying potential seems too good to pass up, especially since it'll be a dwarf evangelist.

Are ye PREPARED, wanderer, to enter unto the FORGE of MORADIN, and in its INDESCRIBABLE HEAT, have your SHAMES and your INIQUITIES BURNED AWAY from your MOLTEN BODY, as DROSS from a NEW-FORGED BLADE!?

Or I might take Church Inquisitor, because nobody expects the Dwarven Inquisition.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Ixtellor » Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:30 pm UTC

Klapaucius wrote:Or I might take Church Inquisitor, because nobody expects the Dwarven Inquisition.


I was thinking Dwarves are pretty rigid and tradition beholden.
So I would amend it to:

Nobody expects the Halfing Inquisition.

"You were not sufficiently leisurely enough, prepare to face the Rack!"


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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby bigglesworth » Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:56 pm UTC

Cake or death?
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Klapaucius » Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:57 pm UTC

bigglesworth wrote:Cake or death?
With dwarven cake, you're better off choosing death.

With death, you get to keep your teeth.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby heavymeds » Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:31 pm UTC

would anyone here be interested in doing a DnD 4e game over Google wave?

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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Xanthir » Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:39 am UTC

I'm in.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:49 am UTC

I've never used Google Wave. Would it be PbP-ish, or would there be...webcams and such?
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby heavymeds » Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:18 am UTC

it's both, with real time editing and a bunch of other stuff, probably the easiest way to do something in real time over the internet. There are plenty of wave invites floating around in the Wave invites thread viewtopic.php?f=2&t=45932&start=160

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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Klapaucius » Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:10 pm UTC

Hypothetical question:

Let's say that a kobold steals a minor artifact which is designed to open a portal into the Elemental Plane of Fire. Now let's say that a gang of PCs has taken the artifact back, but weren't clever enough to investigate whether it had been used or not. And as a result, there is an efreet in the middle of a kobold settlement, with no way home, plenty of time to kill, and a group of extremely clever little bastards who now serve a being that can grant 3 wishes a day.

What happens next?
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Bulvox » Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:38 pm UTC

Klapaucius wrote:Hypothetical question:

Let's say that a kobold steals a minor artifact which is designed to open a portal into the Elemental Plane of Fire. Now let's say that a gang of PCs has taken the artifact back, but weren't clever enough to investigate whether it had been used or not. And as a result, there is an efreet in the middle of a kobold settlement, with no way home, plenty of time to kill, and a group of extremely clever little bastards who now serve a being that can grant 3 wishes a day.

What happens next?
They invade the closest settlement and start a slaughter.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Klapaucius » Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:44 pm UTC

Bulvox wrote:
Klapaucius wrote:Hypothetical question:

Let's say that a kobold steals a minor artifact which is designed to open a portal into the Elemental Plane of Fire. Now let's say that a gang of PCs has taken the artifact back, but weren't clever enough to investigate whether it had been used or not. And as a result, there is an efreet in the middle of a kobold settlement, with no way home, plenty of time to kill, and a group of extremely clever little bastards who now serve a being that can grant 3 wishes a day.

What happens next?
They invade the closest settlement and start a slaughter.
Yeah, that's what I figured.

But I'm trying to be mroe interesting... like, I wrote up stats for a kobold who's a very young red dragon from the waist down.

Do you think any average kobolds would know about the Divine Minion class?
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby TaintedDeity » Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:18 pm UTC

I think it's impotant to realise that no character in game will know about the Divine Minion class.
Characters will notice that some have *insert abilities and features of class here* but they won't have any idea of the mechanics behind it.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Klapaucius » Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:26 pm UTC

TaintedDeity wrote:I think it's impotant to realise that no character in game will know about the Divine Minion class.
Characters will notice that some have *insert abilities and features of class here* but they won't have any idea of the mechanics behind it.
I know; the idea was to worry about Kobolds wishing to be Pun-Pun.

There should be a prestige class for spellcasters who have seen through reality and discerned that every decision in the universe hinges on a mortal sitting behind a screen and the fall of a dodecahedron.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby TaintedDeity » Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:56 pm UTC

Ah, we can't be having that, now :D

Also, a class that breaks the 4th wall would be rather amusing...
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Woxor » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:03 am UTC

"The Metamancer"

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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby heavymeds » Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:06 am UTC

Xanthir wrote:I'm in.

lets see, so if Sir_Elderberry is in as well that's 4 people. How many people would be a good number? I was thinking around 5 or 6 including the DM

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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:08 am UTC

I'm afraid I'm not in. I don't own webcam, headset, and all that.
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Re: Dungeons and Dragons (and other tabletop RPGs)

Postby bigglesworth » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:42 pm UTC

Those are not necessary over google wave.
Generation Y. I don't remember the First Gulf War, but do remember floppy disks.


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