Difficulty: turn it up to 11

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ProZac
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Re: Difficulty: turn it up to 11

Postby ProZac » Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:52 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:It takes one death to learn where a trap is though, and (unless you're playing through the game for the first time on hard/impossible) you spawn right back in the same spot, so you lose minimal time figuring out where the traps are. That hasn't stopped me from dying thousands of times AFTER I knew where the traps were.


Yes, I didn't mean to say the game wasn't hard. It still requires very precise actions. I just don't think it's the same type of difficulty you would find in the other games. Where as IWBTG is (pretty much) always the same actions and requires precision, Contra/bullet hells change based on your positioning when enemies come on screen, so you have to be more predictive and skilled to adapt to the changes (Or just go through the exact same movements every time).

Back to the original topic, how about Double Dragon 1 and 3? Personally, I found those games to be quite difficult as they approach the end. I remember my first time beating the guy with the gun in the first and thinking I finally beat it... only to have another prick come out to kill me. I'm not sure I've ever actually beat the 3rd without cheating. Ah, this reminds me of when final bosses were actually really friggin difficult. Can't say I know of many games where the final boss is actually an extreme challenge these days.

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Jorpho
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Re: Difficulty: turn it up to 11

Postby Jorpho » Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:22 pm UTC

ProZac wrote:Contra/bullet hells change based on your positioning when enemies come on screen, so you have to be more predictive and skilled to adapt to the changes (Or just go through the exact same movements every time).
Some bullet hells, perhaps, but that's not the case for many of them - and not really for Contra.

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Kag
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Re: Difficulty: turn it up to 11

Postby Kag » Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:32 pm UTC

psion wrote:
Kag wrote:
psion wrote:IWBTG IS hard, to say it doesn't deserve to be mentioned because it's finishable is ridiculous.


No, once you know where all the traps are, only some of the bosses and like 6 rooms are actually difficult. You just have to accept that the only way to find traps is to be killed by them repeatedly.

So, it's just like Battletoads? And Ikaruga? And Contra? And every other game listed here? Ah, I see why it doesn't belong..


Well, no, all of those games have WAY more demanding execution, and actually punish you for failing, which was my point.
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psion
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Re: Difficulty: turn it up to 11

Postby psion » Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:21 pm UTC

Impossible mode. If the execution is so trivial it should be easy, but it's clearly not. You're well punished for making a mistake as well.
I think you should concede, and have ST delete our argument if he wants.

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Endless Mike
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Re: Difficulty: turn it up to 11

Postby Endless Mike » Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:11 pm UTC

The upcoming Matt Hazard 2.5D game has a difficulty called "Fuck this Game!" I forget what the exact details are, but I seem to recall one-hit kills and no checkpoints being part of it. 'Splosion Man on XBLA has something similar, although with enough persistance it would theoretically be possible, since the levels don't change too much.

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Aikanaro
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Re: Difficulty: turn it up to 11

Postby Aikanaro » Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:23 pm UTC

Wait, wait, wait.....someone considers Mega Man 2 to be hard, still? With enough practice, you can beat that game in your sleep.

Now, Mega Man 1, on the other hand...especially assuming you don't use the Thunder Beam glitch :twisted:
Parts of Mega Man 4.
Also, Mega Man 7, particularly the last boss, though that's also partly due to bad design, some may say.
Also, maybe Mega Man 9, if you do Proto Man mode or the harder difficulty settings....or, hell, just go for the challenges.

(yes, I know, I'm a huge Mega Man fan :P )

Aliens vs Predator 1 on Director's Cut mode, particularly the Marine campaign. Take a standard FPS, then turn out half the lights, but give the enemies night vision, the ability to run on walls as fast as cheetahs do on ground, and the ability to move in complete silence. An enemy standing next to you can kill you in about a second. Standing on an enemy CORPSE can kill you in about 1.5. This game said "Fuck balance, let's go for REALISM!" i.e., the marine is screwed.

Also, Bionic Commando (old or new, but the new one, only on the hardest difficulty). Hell, even Rearmed, again, on harder settings.

Of course, lots of games become Nintendo hard if you just ramp it up to the hardest difficulty setting.
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GrantSolar
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Re: Difficulty: turn it up to 11

Postby GrantSolar » Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:34 pm UTC

iakiss wrote: i would like to leave out games that are more annoying because of bad design or lack of it for that matter like superman 64 or the first Metal gear solid(fuck that game)


Are you allowing PacMan as the final level's half filled with crap?

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Re: Difficulty: turn it up to 11

Postby Amnesiasoft » Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:36 pm UTC

Aikanaro wrote:Also, Bionic Commando (old or new, but the new one, only on the hardest difficulty). Hell, even Rearmed, again, on harder settings.

I don't even know why they call it Nintendo Hard, most of the games responsible for that are Capcom games. Why don't we just call it Capcom Hard?

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Re: Difficulty: turn it up to 11

Postby Restartagain » Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:41 pm UTC

Aikanaro wrote:(yes, I know, I'm a huge Mega Man fan :P )

Do you know of the horrid catastrophy that is Mega Man X6? Ugh... trash compactors = nightmares.
...First one I played in the X series. Took me months to dare pick up another X game.
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Aikanaro
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Re: Difficulty: turn it up to 11

Postby Aikanaro » Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:42 pm UTC

Amnesiasoft wrote:
Aikanaro wrote:Also, Bionic Commando (old or new, but the new one, only on the hardest difficulty). Hell, even Rearmed, again, on harder settings.

I don't even know why they call it Nintendo Hard, most of the games responsible for that are Capcom games. Why don't we just call it Capcom Hard?

Because I just thought of the ultimate exception to that rule? (Assuming it's not just due to Fake Difficulty).

Ghouls'N'Ghosts.

Remember, kids, there IS no third level. If anyone tells you they've beaten the second level, they're just dirty lying whores.

EDIT: Yes, I know of that horror in X6....really, X1-3 are your best bets for just FUN in an X game. So far though, X7 is the only one to make me raegquaat (rescuable reploid got raped when I was rammed by a renegade out of range to retrieve it. This conflicted with my OCD to save them all, and it was when I was most of the way through a painful stage anyway).
Dear xkcd,

On behalf of my religion, I'm sorry so many of us do dumb shit. Please forgive us.

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Amnesiasoft
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Re: Difficulty: turn it up to 11

Postby Amnesiasoft » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:32 pm UTC

Aikanaro wrote:Because I just thought of the ultimate exception to that rule? (Assuming it's not just due to Fake Difficulty).

Ghouls'N'Ghosts.

Wikipedia wrote:Ghouls 'n Ghosts (大魔界村 Dai Makaimura?, lit. "Great Demon World Village") is a platform game/run and gun developed by Capcom

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Aikanaro
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Re: Difficulty: turn it up to 11

Postby Aikanaro » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:33 am UTC

Amnesiasoft wrote:
Aikanaro wrote:Because I just thought of the ultimate exception to that rule? (Assuming it's not just due to Fake Difficulty).

Ghouls'N'Ghosts.

Wikipedia wrote:Ghouls 'n Ghosts (大魔界村 Dai Makaimura?, lit. "Great Demon World Village") is a platform game/run and gun developed by Capcom

Oh GDI.....seriously? Bloody hell, I retract my earlier assertion. Coulda sworn it was one of the other old-school developers like Konami that made that game....

Anyway, someone else suggested the original Metroid.
Dear xkcd,

On behalf of my religion, I'm sorry so many of us do dumb shit. Please forgive us.

Love, Aikanaro.

Ralith The Third
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Re: Difficulty: turn it up to 11

Postby Ralith The Third » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:24 am UTC

Shadow of the Collosus, if only because I am bitter because it's all so pretty and yet I can't manage to start the first fight. Damn walls.
Omni.

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Various Varieties
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Re: Difficulty: turn it up to 11

Postby Various Varieties » Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:30 am UTC

iakiss wrote:3. Ninja Gaiden (all of them)

Not quite all of them: the Sega Master System version is quite straightforward!

I played through Ninja Gaiden Black on the Xbox earlier this year, and it's very challenging, but it wasn't as painfully difficult as its reputation suggests. (To the people who got stuck on the first boss: just abuse wall-jump + Y!) Yes, there were lots of nasty difficulty spikes in the boss fights (both of Alma's forms, the tanks, Doku, the boss towards the end with the floating platforms, the final boss), but crucially, the solidity of the combat system meant game always felt completely fair, and I always knew that I could persevere and get past them.

Admittedly I haven't tried Master Ninja mode, and most of the challenge missions I've attempted so far are really difficult compared to the rooms in the main game...

5. Halo odst in legendary

Haven't played ODST, but Halo 2 Legendary is nasty, thanks to the lack of ammo in some hangars in Cairo Station and the one-hit-kill jackal snipers in many levels. It's a far less well-balanced difficulty level than the original's.

It's probably nothing compared to the challenge of certain bullet hell shmups, but Perfect Dark on Perfect Agent is probably the hardest game I've ever completed on its highest difficulty. Again, like Halo 1 to Halo 2, GoldenEye to Perfect Dark was a step backwards in terms of well-balanced highest difficulty settings. Levels like Attack Ship and Maian SOS might be short (15 minutes at the most, if you go reaaallly cautiously), but there are no save points in that time, they are pretty intense and reliant on memorisation of enemy positions, and they have fairly strict success criteria and rely on a certain amount of ammo management. Of course, the time attackers at http://www.the-elite.net/ make it look easy...

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Re: Difficulty: turn it up to 11

Postby Amnesiasoft » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:47 am UTC

Aikanaro wrote:Oh GDI.....seriously? Bloody hell, I retract my earlier assertion. Coulda sworn it was one of the other old-school developers like Konami that made that game....

Well, Konami made Contra. We can call it CapKon Hard if it'll make you happy.

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Kag
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Re: Difficulty: turn it up to 11

Postby Kag » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:15 am UTC

psion wrote:Impossible mode. If the execution is so trivial it should be easy, but it's clearly not. You're well punished for making a mistake as well.
I think you should concede, and have ST delete our argument if he wants.

I would contend that impossible mode is fake difficulty, since it turns it into a very bad game.

And I can promise you there is not a single screen in IWBTG that is as hard as the third level of Battletoads, and that game only gets harder from that point on. Also, keep in mind that "not as hard as Contra" != trivial.

On topic: the master mode in Gitaroo Man.
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Purky
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Re: Difficulty: turn it up to 11

Postby Purky » Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:55 am UTC

I'll go with UFO:Enemy Unknown on god difficulty. Damn that game pissed me off (but in an entertaining way).
Also Tie Fighter, tracking those bloody A-Wings could be a complete nightmare...

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Aikanaro
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Re: Difficulty: turn it up to 11

Postby Aikanaro » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:06 pm UTC

Ninja Gaiden for NES reminded me of Ninja Crusaders for NES. Very, very similar (probably the same developers), but with different weapons, shapeshifting.....and one-hitpoint-wonders :P
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ProZac
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Re: Difficulty: turn it up to 11

Postby ProZac » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:27 pm UTC

Aikanaro wrote:Also, Mega Man 7, particularly the last boss, though that's also partly due to bad design, some may say.

This is the only Megaman game in the original and X series I haven't completed, and it was precisely because I could not beat the final boss.

Kag wrote:And I can promise you there is not a single screen in IWBTG that is as hard as the third level of Battletoads, and that game only gets harder from that point on. Also, keep in mind that "not as hard as Contra" != trivial.

Really? There's some much harder stages later on in Battletoads, I never found the 3rd one to be that big of a problem. Also, I would easily say that the final boss of the IWBTG is harder (or just as hard, it's been a while since I've played) any stage in Battletoads. Hey, he's a single screen.

Has anyone else played Half Life: Decay (The 2 player co-op game included with the PS2 release)? I nominate this as "The hardest final level" ever in a game. So much so in fact, it is one of only 2 games I've ever started and did not complete due to difficulty (The other being FF3).

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Jorpho
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Re: Difficulty: turn it up to 11

Postby Jorpho » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:54 pm UTC

ProZac wrote:Has anyone else played Half Life: Decay (The 2 player co-op game included with the PS2 release)?
It's available for the PC as a meticulously-recreated fanmade mod, y'know.

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Endless Mike
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Re: Difficulty: turn it up to 11

Postby Endless Mike » Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:33 pm UTC

Purky wrote:I'll go with UFO:Enemy Unknown on god difficulty. Damn that game pissed me off (but in an entertaining way).
Also Tie Fighter, tracking those bloody A-Wings could be a complete nightmare...

http://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php?title=Known_Bugs#Difficulty_Bug wrote:Difficulty Bug
The DOS version had a problem where no matter what difficulty level you chose, you were actually playing at "Beginner" level. Because of one or two incorrectly set bytes in all dos versions of the game( 1.0 through to 1.4), no matter what difficulty was selected, the difficulty bug would reset to beginner at the end of the first mission. XcomUtil corrects this problem. This bug was officially fixed in the Collectors Edition Windows port (also commonly known as UFO Gold).

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Kag
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Re: Difficulty: turn it up to 11

Postby Kag » Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:46 pm UTC

ProZac wrote:Really? There's some much harder stages later on in Battletoads, I never found the 3rd one to be that big of a problem. Also, I would easily say that the final boss of the IWBTG is harder (or just as hard, it's been a while since I've played) any stage in Battletoads. Hey, he's a single screen.


I would say that you are crazy. The last boss is the most fair and reasonable part of that game. Clown Cart is easily the hardest boss.

But anyway, even Kayin says Battletoads is harder.

edit: on second thought I take that back. Kraidgief might be harder. I ended up glitching the fight by accident and didn't want to punch a gift explosion in the face.
Last edited by Kag on Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:01 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Difficulty: turn it up to 11

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:31 pm UTC

Endless Mike wrote:
Purky wrote:I'll go with UFO:Enemy Unknown on god difficulty. Damn that game pissed me off (but in an entertaining way).
Also Tie Fighter, tracking those bloody A-Wings could be a complete nightmare...

http://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php?title=Known_Bugs#Difficulty_Bug wrote:Difficulty Bug
The DOS version had a problem where no matter what difficulty level you chose, you were actually playing at "Beginner" level. Because of one or two incorrectly set bytes in all dos versions of the game( 1.0 through to 1.4), no matter what difficulty was selected, the difficulty bug would reset to beginner at the end of the first mission. XcomUtil corrects this problem. This bug was officially fixed in the Collectors Edition Windows port (also commonly known as UFO Gold).
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Re: Difficulty: turn it up to 11

Postby Internetmeme » Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:13 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
Endless Mike wrote:
Purky wrote:I'll go with UFO:Enemy Unknown on god difficulty. Damn that game pissed me off (but in an entertaining way).
Also Tie Fighter, tracking those bloody A-Wings could be a complete nightmare...

http://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php?title=Known_Bugs#Difficulty_Bug wrote:Difficulty Bug
The DOS version had a problem where no matter what difficulty level you chose, you were actually playing at "Beginner" level. Because of one or two incorrectly set bytes in all dos versions of the game( 1.0 through to 1.4), no matter what difficulty was selected, the difficulty bug would reset to beginner at the end of the first mission. XcomUtil corrects this problem. This bug was officially fixed in the Collectors Edition Windows port (also commonly known as UFO Gold).
First rule of gamemaking - take the standard blue mook, paint it red and call it Elite in the manual. Make no other changes. Gamers will fill in the details.

I've noticed myself doing this. Just Thanksgiving, I was trying to beat Socom 3, and I noticed I was on Medium (Luitennant). I sucked afterewards.
Spoiler:

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Re: Difficulty: turn it up to 11

Postby Patch » Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:51 am UTC

Anybody played VVVVVV? I just completed it, and it made me think of this thread.

For those who missed it: gravity switching platformer with low-fi graphics, chiptune music, tight level design, and fiendish difficulty, mitigated a bit by generous checkpoints. Kind of reminds me of a metroid game without all the extra baggage.

Anyway, good stuff for those who desire a little bit of a challenge ...


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