Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Of the Tabletop, and other, lesser varieties.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Xeio » Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:21 pm UTC

WarDaft wrote:Lastly, here is a flow chart of some basic counters for each unit. It is based on the in-game help menu, not my personal opinions, so some relations may be out of date:
http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/1589 ... wchart.png
Note that it is actually much more complicated at higher levels of play, with certain units countering others only if microed properly, and makes no account of group dynamics.
Ok, that chart listed workers as a counter to an attackless (sure... ok...) air unit (WHAT?) and siege tanks in siege mode (almost a good idea... except that I've yet to see a situation where having the workers run away wouldn't be better, unless it's literally a single siege tank and not yet in siege).

I'd say try some things out, if you start to notice you die a lot to a specific unit (or combination) and can't figure out a counter go to the SC2 forums (or here, even) and ask for help, because no chart is going to give you anything but single-unit-type counters (ok, yea, I guess that chart does ok at that for the most part). Though, I'll admit that in the lowest leagues you may end up seeing quite a few 1 unit type attacks (you'll grow to love these if you scouted them).

It really just takes a bit of practice to get a general feel for it, even against a computer for a bit. Not sure how much the campaign would get you ready for multiplayer, as supposedly there are a lot of units that they added to it that wouldn't be balanced in multiplayer. Even if you start out online, the league system is very nice with how it places you.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby WarDaft » Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:24 pm UTC

Ok, that chart listed workers as a counter to an attackless (sure... ok...) air unit (WHAT?) and siege tanks in siege mode (almost a good idea... except that I've yet to see a situation where having the workers run away wouldn't be better, unless it's literally a single siege tank and not yet in siege).
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:56 pm UTC

WarDaft wrote:Workers are like villagers. Supply Depots, Pylons, and Overlords are vaguely like houses.
Basically nothing else translates, except that they are dudes who kill things.
And that's simplifying it.

Most Terran buildings were mobile, allowing for a (theoretically) nomadic base. Protoss buildings needed to be powered by the Pylons, which had a radius effect. Zerg buildings could only be built on modified terrain (which was modified by the Main Base building or a structure that became your defensive towers). And Overlords... Overlords are your farms AND your flying transportation.

Protoss and Terrans could chain building units out of their main base, then produce other military units from various military structures. Zerg have 4 little larva around their main base that can be mutated into a worker.. or into various military units. So you have to make a tactical decision - 1 more worker, or 1 hydralisk, for example. The 4 would come back over time, sure, but they never went beyond 4... or maybe it was 5.... point being, there were X of them, and when they were gone, they were gone until time regenerated them, unlike humans and protoss who can just make them all day long, no problem.

Terrans are the only one with a projectile-based basic unit. Actually, now that I think about it, I don't recall any melee based Terran unit. Unless you want to count the firebats (flamethrowers) and medics (what the hell did they use again?) as melee, since it was close range.

While Zerg and Protoss buy vehicle/large creature upgrades and that's it, they're done, the Terrans have building add-ons that, unfortunately, don't fly away with the building. So if you wanted to move your armoured vehicle plant, you lose access to tanks until you can build a new add-on.

I mean, it basically breaks down to - the reason Starcraft I is still being played today is that there really isn't another game out there quite like it, with all three sides playing radically different from one another. Except for maybe Warcraft III.
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby WarDaft » Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:03 pm UTC

Radically different and yet still somehow magically balanced.
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:29 am UTC

WarDaft wrote:Radically different and yet still somehow magically balanced.

Which is, of course, Starcraft's great feature. Plenty of games have various, radically different playstyles. Plenty of games have balanced playstyles. Starcraft has both.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Eseell » Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:34 am UTC

Sir_Elderberry wrote:ITT: We pass the last few hours with ridiculous plot spoilers. I can't believe that Snape killed Kerrigan.

I'm much more surprised that Arcturus Mengsk is Stephen Duffy's long-lost father. Their reunion was heartbreaking.
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Vincent91 » Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:47 am UTC

I'm proud of my StarCraft joke, even though it has definitely been done before:

My friend texts me "There's a huge lineup at EB Games!" and I answer "Yeah, they need more control. They need to SPAWN MORE OVERLORDS!"

... Sucks to be at work

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Kain » Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:15 pm UTC

Argh, still an hour and a half until the local best buy opens (no EB Games here :( ). Funny, I think this is the first time I am actually getting a game on the day it comes out. I must say, I am not fond of the waiting...
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby psion » Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:40 pm UTC

I'm about halfway through the campaign. They weren't lying when they said it will be about as long as all three campaigns of the original Starcraft.
It has sort of a Mass Effect feel between missions, where you can go around the ship talking to people and buying upgrades. So, right there it almost solidifes itself as the best RTS campaign I've played. Then it has interesting missions, excellent storytelling, and dancing Night Elves ontop of that. It's quite unusually to see an RTS get the cinematic treatment and feel so involved. Starcraft 2 has clearly raised the bar considerably.

Apart from all that, I think it's awesome that there's several crazy units and upgrades that you won't ever see in multiplayer (for balance reasons). It really spices up the singleplayer experience when you're doing something different from the multiplayer.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Texas_Ben » Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:50 pm UTC

psion wrote:Apart from all that, I think it's awesome that there's several crazy units and upgrades that you won't ever see in multiplayer (for balance reasons). It really spices up the singleplayer experience when you're doing something different from the multiplayer.

Elaborate on that please. I won't be able to play this game until after I get back from Otakon on sunday.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Xeio » Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:27 pm UTC

Hrmmm, release date delivery, but I sent it to my parent's address not my apartment.

Hopefully I can get my mom to give me the CD key and get a copy of the disk ISO. *hope hope hope* Otherwise I won't get to play till Friday.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby phlip » Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:38 pm UTC

Hmm, so apparently I missed a phone call from EB this morning. I wonder what that was all about.

In unrelated news, I have a preorder to go pick up at some point, and a weekend coming up to have fun during.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Jessica » Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:39 pm UTC

I can't wait to hear what people think about it.
I hope it's good enough that when I digitally buy it, it'll be super duper awesome.
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Diadem » Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:41 pm UTC

I'm installing the game now. Maaaaaan it's so slow. 31% now and it's been installing for nearly half an hour. It's ridiculous, and I have absolutely not idea why it would take so long. At first it thought it was maybe downloading stuff from an overcrowded server. But there's no network activity. So I really don't understand.

Not a good start. I'm gonna be very pissed if I don't get a chance to play the game before I gotta leave tonight.
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby sunami » Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:51 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:I'm installing the game now. Maaaaaan it's so slow. 31% now and it's been installing for nearly half an hour. It's ridiculous, and I have absolutely not idea why it would take so long. At first it thought it was maybe downloading stuff from an overcrowded server. But there's no network activity. So I really don't understand.

Not a good start. I'm gonna be very pissed if I don't get a chance to play the game before I gotta leave tonight.

Same here. Installing from the DVD, and it stops spinning A LOT and just sits, then spins up for a second to put down like 30 pieces (OF 37,600!!!).
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Diadem » Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:59 pm UTC

Yeah. Same here. I really don't understand why it would take so long. What does it have to do? Copy 4 gig to my harddrive (that's 2-3 min) and unzip it (5-6 min tops, if it's very well compressed). What takes half an hour?

Actually, 18 min between these posts and it went from 31% to 46%. So 15% in 18 min. At that speed the entire install will take 2 hours. TWO hours!
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby sunami » Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:19 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:Yeah. Same here. I really don't understand why it would take so long. What does it have to do? Copy 4 gig to my harddrive (that's 2-3 min) and unzip it (5-6 min tops, if it's very well compressed). What takes half an hour?

Actually, 18 min between these posts and it went from 31% to 46%. So 15% in 18 min. At that speed the entire install will take 2 hours. TWO hours!

It's about 7 gigs (unzip to 12), but yea, something seems weird with their installer. However, once I hit 50% it sped up a lot (relatively), 90% in 1 hour. Gave me time to work on my sc2 global ladder project anyway!
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Tomo » Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:02 pm UTC

That's really strange, I almost installed it faster using digital distribution than you guys have from the disk! (2 hours downloading + 20 mins installing).

Anyway, game is great so far, I've not done anything beyond multiplayer skirmishes. I'm stil in the practice mode, so I can learn all the new units/hotkeys/build orders and everything else that's changed.
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Ixtellor » Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:00 pm UTC

I have been playing it all morning.

I did 2 campaign games, then went straight to multi-player.

Lost 2 games because of dumb mistakes, and I really don't know the build orders yet or best counters at mid game.
But basically I am owning all the other noobs.

My last game was a fun zerg v zerg, I made mutas' he didnt', and ended up winning by attrition and not letting him expand.

I also got cannon rushed in an early game... and it worked. Not the cannons, but making me waste 2 mins dealing with them.

I got thrown into Bronze league and have gone 2-0 so far.

All multiplayer games have been a joke. One person dropped in both games, and generally the people are AWFUL.
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby BlackSails » Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:22 pm UTC

I hope that both my copy of the game, and my new computer that is capable of playing said game both arrive tomorrow.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Mo0man » Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:38 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:All multiplayer games have been a joke. One person dropped in both games, and generally the people are AWFUL.

Well, if you messed up twice in your placement matches and got dropped in bronze, it's not the other people's fault that you're misplaced.
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby psion » Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:40 pm UTC

Texas_Ben wrote:Elaborate on that please. I won't be able to play this game until after I get back from Otakon on sunday.

I'd like to, but there's really quite a bit. A few examples of upgrades: Refinery auto harvesting, Zerg Mind Control Tower, Supply Depots build instantly, and two upgrades for each unit (sometimes just increased damage or something, but there's also somewhat nifty things like permanent cloak on Ghosts). New units are mostly old units: Firebat, Wraith, Vulture, Goliath, etc. They stay with you throughout the campaign once you unlock them.

I think I'll finish the campaign tomorrow. Apparently I've already earned 53 achievements. Yay, right?
Last edited by psion on Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:09 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Texas_Ben » Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:21 pm UTC

psion wrote: New units are mostly old units: Firebat, Wraith, Vulture, Goliath, etc


sex

*edit*
Got to play early. Bunker loaded with 6 marines, the range bonus, and autoturrets rip infested terrans on the infested terran level to shreds.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Vincent91 » Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:44 pm UTC

This game is awesome.

I tried Protoss the first game I played, but it didn't go very well. It was a 4v4AI. Then I went Terran and started playing practice matches. I won 5 out of 5.

I'm practicing my macro doing Marines, Marauders and Medivacs. Usually, I end up with a Reactor'd Rax, another Rax with a Tech Lab and a Starport, and I keep making SCVs the whole time. By the time I get to around 40 supply, I'm ready to go. This strategy has won me all my games, but I think I'll get tougher opponents soon, so it'll have to change.

I've won a game or two with reapers too, but really just because of harass. The zerg tentacles hit them hard though when placed close to mineral patches, so I don't really like it.

I've won my first placement match. That was very funny. My army was almost ready to go when my opponent dropped into my base with 3 Vikings. Just moved all my SCVs behind my army and took care of the Vikings, then proceeded to counter. He gg'd when he saw my Medivacs unload on the border of his base.

This is exciting.

I find it much easier than StarCraft 1. Queue'd actions for SCVs is the feature that's helping me the most though, because I tend to forget them. Now I can just tell them to go back to mining once they're done.

I guess it will get tougher once I get out of the practice maps with rocks to prevent rushes though. I'll have to slow down on the teching to Medivacs and make more marines and marauders early, because I've heard of Mutas harass and the like. Noone has tried the Reaper Rush on me yet either, so I'll have to be careful and watch out for that.

Once again, my verdict is: This game is fun.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Ixtellor » Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:55 pm UTC

I went back to the campaign mode and had a question.
Do the missions get harder? I am playing on normal, but its too easy.

The AI is just as dumb as SC1 and they are easy to funnel into bunkers. Now with +range/+2 slots AND a turret on my rax, the missions are so far no challenge.

I am willing to stick it out and assume these are just the beginning missions (which I do like btw) but wondering if I should switch to hard mode.

I just read about roaches and banelings.... I think my future bronze level opponants are in trouble.
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby BlackSails » Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:00 pm UTC

Fucking amazon. They arent even shipping it until next week.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Spambot5546 » Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:07 pm UTC

Wait until you read about Brood Lords. I fucked up a friend with a flight of those in our first multiplayer game.
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Texas_Ben » Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:24 pm UTC

...I'm really really liking the campaign units. Couple questions though.
1. I know you can replay missions, but do you get money/research for doing so?
2. If I complete the campaign, can I still go back and play missions I've done?
3. Can I go back and do the other side of a mission where you have to pick sides?
4. What, if any, effect does veterancy have on units?

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Ixtellor » Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:25 pm UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:Wait until you read about Brood Lords. I fucked up a friend with a flight of those in our first multiplayer game.


Yea in my 2 super competitive games where I only won my attrition, I realized I should have raped them because I never used roaches, banes, or brood lords.
I am reading that if you get to broods in bronze level, its over.

I am going to try spamming roaches with a mix of lings and see if that can get me a lot of wins.

Question: How long do you stay in the same league? Will I eventually get promoted to silver?
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby WarDaft » Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:30 pm UTC

Texas_Ben wrote:...I'm really really liking the campaign units. Couple questions though.
1. I know you can replay missions, but do you get money/research for doing so?
2. If I complete the campaign, can I still go back and play missions I've done?
3. Can I go back and do the other side of a mission where you have to pick sides?
4. What, if any, effect does veterancy have on units?

1.) Only money/research you didn't get the first time through.
2.) Don't know yet.
3.) Only if you reload a save.
4.) A cool name. I'm sure someone will make a map where units do better as they rank up in no time.

Question: How long do you stay in the same league? Will I eventually get promoted to silver?
It decides every 10-15 games if you should be promoted. If you've been winning constantly for a while, it usually jumps you up.
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Vincent91 » Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:59 pm UTC

Does anyone know how the initial placement is determined from the 5 placement matches? Is the Win/Loss ratio all that counts or do they take into account things such as APM, Average Unspent Resources, Army Value, etc.?

If it's just the Win/Loss ratio, then what are the Wins->League values?

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Xeio » Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:14 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:Fucking amazon. They arent even shipping it until next week.
Yea, free super saver will do that you know. Though generally they ship it by Thursday/Friday from what I've seen (you probably wont get it till Monday though) using that. I got my release date delivery yesterday (woo free trial of Amazon Prime).
Vincent91 wrote:Does anyone know how the initial placement is determined from the 5 placement matches? Is the Win/Loss ratio all that counts or do they take into account things such as APM, Average Unspent Resources, Army Value, etc.?

If it's just the Win/Loss ratio, then what are the Wins->League values?
I think it was mostly win/loss ratio, as well as the overall ability you showed in comparison to your opponents (if you do really well, and barely lose, it's better than losing by a landslide). It probably also depends on the skill levels of your opponents. So, it's a bit more of a sliding scale. I do know for sure though that you can only be placed in bronze/silver/gold, diamond is rank-up only.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby WarDaft » Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:05 pm UTC

Vincent91 wrote:Does anyone know how the initial placement is determined from the 5 placement matches? Is the Win/Loss ratio all that counts or do they take into account things such as APM, Average Unspent Resources, Army Value, etc.?

If it's just the Win/Loss ratio, then what are the Wins->League values?

I believe it's just an extremely flexible rating adjustment, because you can be pitted against people in the actual ladder.

P.S. My god... it's full of credits...


There is actually a fast forward button they're so long.


Now to beat it on hard.
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Xeio » Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:19 pm UTC

WarDaft wrote:Now to beat it on hard.
What kind of pansy plays through on anything less than Hard the first time? :P

(Though, I bet I miss normal at least a little on some of the missions where you're stressed for time with an achievement built for normal difficulty...)

I was nealy wiped out on zero hour the first time (lifted off my CC about 15 seconds to evac to save it) though, and there's a requirement to not lose any buildings (for normal).

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby WarDaft » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:03 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:What kind of pansy plays through on anything less than Hard the first time? :P

(Though, I bet I miss normal at least a little on some of the missions where you're stressed for time with an achievement built for normal difficulty...)

I was nealy wiped out on zero hour the first time (lifted off my CC about 15 seconds to evac to save it) though, and there's a requirement to not lose any buildings (for normal).

Do you actually get the normal ones on the harder difficulties? Because some of the achievements explicitly say "X or harder", and some just say "on Normal."

Some of the normal ones would be a real pain to try to get on hard.
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Kain » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:12 pm UTC

WarDaft wrote:
Texas_Ben wrote:...I'm really really liking the campaign units. Couple questions though.
1. I know you can replay missions, but do you get money/research for doing so?
2. If I complete the campaign, can I still go back and play missions I've done?
3. Can I go back and do the other side of a mission where you have to pick sides?
4. What, if any, effect does veterancy have on units?

1.) Only money/research you didn't get the first time through.
2.) Don't know yet.
3.) Only if you reload a save.
4.) A cool name. I'm sure someone will make a map where units do better as they rank up in no time.

Question: How long do you stay in the same league? Will I eventually get promoted to silver?
It decides every 10-15 games if you should be promoted. If you've been winning constantly for a while, it usually jumps you up.


2: Once you've completed the campaign, you can go back and replay any mission you've done, from a screen similar to the old SC level selection.
3: You can also do either of the missions from each of the choices.

Anyone know if there is a hidden mission, and if so what mission you have to do well to unlock it? I'm going for the normal completion (I want that portrait!) but as of now, have 25/26 missions completed, with both missions for each choice completed just to be sure (it didn't seem to help).

Oh, and WarDaft, I don't recall seeing any achievements that follow the lines of "on a given difficulty or greater," only "on a given difficulty." I suppose you could always try by starting a new campaign (you'll have to load from a save file to get back to the old one) and doing the first mission on hard, to see if you can get the normal achievement as well.
Look, you know it's serious when a bunch of people in full armor and gear come charging in to fight a pond of chickens - Steax

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Diadem
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Diadem » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:54 pm UTC

So it asked me if I wanted to do a practice league. I said yes, it asked me if I was sure I wanted to skip the practice league, I cancelled, it skipped the practice league for me. Ok that first one was probably a misclick on my part, but that second one is just plain stupid. The confirmation menu was ambigious, so I thought pressing escape would be safest. Stupid game.

Anyone know how I can get it back?

Same question for the intro movie. When I first booted the game I skipped it and now I can't get it again.

edit: While I'm asking questions... Ingame it shows my realname behind my nick, which I suppose it extracted from my b.net account. Does anyone know if other players can view this?
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

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Xeio
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Xeio » Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:35 am UTC

WarDaft wrote:Do you actually get the normal ones on the harder difficulties? Because some of the achievements explicitly say "X or harder", and some just say "on Normal."

Some of the normal ones would be a real pain to try to get on hard.
Yes, and yes. :?

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TommyTumnus
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby TommyTumnus » Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:29 am UTC

Diadem wrote:Same question for the intro movie. When I first booted the game I skipped it and now I can't get it again.


Once you get onto the Hyperion (after the first three missions, I believe), you gain access to a Mission Archive computer where you can replay any mission or cinematic--the intro cinematic included.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby psion » Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:43 am UTC

I'm pretty sure you can't get the practice games back, hence the double confirmation, but I wouldn't worry about it. You only get 5, and the games are played on the slowest speed.
In the beta, your real name would be displayed to a friend if you added them via facebook or e-mail. I'd assume this is still the case.
Placements and promotions/demotions are extremely ambiguous. No one knows how it works except Blizzard.


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