Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

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aaron
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby aaron » Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:14 am UTC

i read it takes in your win:lose, your total score at the end, and your apm. just your general play and your ratio.

got the game tonight, and played my placements. i'm in gold and i exclusively play random. if any of you want to spar with a random player, lemme know.

i played the same guy twice in a row today, the first time i beat him pretty badly. the second, he stole my build order haha, so i just outplayed him. TvT gets boring.

then another guy massed mauraders so i just got quick void rays with a 3 gate opening and it was gg.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Texas_Ben » Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:45 am UTC

Am I the only one getting annoyed with the campaign? It's really great that they're throwing in some variety, but there is a sore lack of missions without time constraints. On thing that annoys me, especially in RTS games, is time constraints. I like having the perma-cloaked ghost upgrade, and taking out the enemy with only a team of 4-5 ghosts. Can't do that when I have to be rushing from point A to point B. Bleah.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Tomo » Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:47 am UTC

I've been playing random, and I got dropped into silver. I think that's largely because I'm absolutely terrible with terran though, I think I've lost every single game.

My zerg seems ok though. I still need to learn all the counters and suchlike however. I've not even tried the campaign yet.
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Dhes » Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:53 am UTC

I think the time constraint is so the people don’t just sit there building a super army and roll over the enemy.

Got my copy yesterday, up till now it’s looking pretty good.
The only thing I don’t get is why I had to pay 59 euro’s for the digital download, that’s 10 euro’s more than getting the DVD in a store. :cry:
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Coin » Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:48 am UTC

Dhes wrote:I think the time constraint is so the people don’t just sit there building a super army and roll over the enemy.

Got my copy yesterday, up till now it’s looking pretty good.
The only thing I don’t get is why I had to pay 59 euro’s for the digital download, that’s 10 euro’s more than getting the DVD in a store. :cry:

Here in Stockholm prices are already down to ~35 euro (300 SEK). In this case waiting a few days has really paid off for me :)
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Xeio » Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:24 pm UTC

You realize you get free digital distribution (via battle.net) with a box copy when you register the key online, right? Plus you get the convenience of having a box copy. :P

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby BlackSails » Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:29 pm UTC

Texas_Ben wrote:Am I the only one getting annoyed with the campaign? It's really great that they're throwing in some variety, but there is a sore lack of missions without time constraints. On thing that annoys me, especially in RTS games, is time constraints. I like having the perma-cloaked ghost upgrade, and taking out the enemy with only a team of 4-5 ghosts. Can't do that when I have to be rushing from point A to point B. Bleah.


Thats war for you :wink:

Things usually dont move at the pace you want them to.


Hey Psion, have you heard of void ray 'fazing'? Basically, void rays deal damage at the start of their animation, not the end, so if you have them attack two targets back and forth you can double their DPS.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby WarDaft » Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:42 pm UTC

Placements and promotions/demotions are extremely ambiguous. No one knows how it works except Blizzard.
Not totally though.

You can check your match history to see who you were placed against for your placement matches (well, so long as you weren't amongst the first to be placed), and from there guess how much each match affected it's estimate. It's definitely not just strictly win/loss. That would be silly.


Hey Psion, have you heard of void ray 'fazing'? Basically, void rays deal damage at the start of their animation, not the end, so if you have them attack two targets back and forth you can double their DPS.
Interesting, but not surprising. Do they still build charge in that situation?
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby BlackSails » Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:45 pm UTC

The leagues are done by a hidden ELO system. Its not mysterious, you just dont know your hidden rating. Leagues arent based on win/loss, but on your ELO.


In fazing, I think they do not build charge. I only found out about this after I didnt have a computer that could play the beta, so Im not entirely sure. Its also the reason void rays are so dangerous once they hit critical mass - if they can vaporize an enemy in 1 hit, they can then instantly attack the next target.

Also, I read somewhere (I have not confirmed this though) that the last beta patch made it possible to do this fazing after charging up, which would be insane.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby WarDaft » Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:01 pm UTC

Texas_Ben wrote:Am I the only one getting annoyed with the campaign? It's really great that they're throwing in some variety, but there is a sore lack of missions without time constraints. On thing that annoys me, especially in RTS games, is time constraints. I like having the perma-cloaked ghost upgrade, and taking out the enemy with only a team of 4-5 ghosts. Can't do that when I have to be rushing from point A to point B. Bleah.

Sounds like you aren't using enough nukes.
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby psion » Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:12 pm UTC

aaron wrote:i read it takes in your win:lose, your total score at the end, and your apm. just your general play and your ratio.

Actually it depends on your annual income, the more you have the less ranked you'll be.
No, we have no idea. There's most likely a hidden ELO as BlackSails said, but that doesn't explain why people get promoted two leagues for a loss, or why some people get promoted immediately, and so forth. I wouldn't specifically call it mysterious, like it's some magical beast, but it's definitely difficult to reverse engineer the process and it has yet to be understood.

Kain wrote:Anyone know if there is a hidden mission, and if so what mission you have to do well to unlock it? I'm going for the normal completion (I want that portrait!) but as of now, have 25/26 missions completed, with both missions for each choice completed just to be sure (it didn't seem to help).

Just go through every mission in the list and see if you completed it on the correct difficulty.

I'm up to 121 achievements just for completing the campaign once with a few 1v1 games, and I'm not achievment hunting. It's ridiculous.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby WarDaft » Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:56 pm UTC

No, we have no idea. There's most likely a hidden ELO as BlackSails said, but that doesn't explain why people get promoted two leagues for a loss, or why some people get promoted immediately, and so forth. I wouldn't specifically call it mysterious, like it's some magical beast, but it's definitely difficult to reverse engineer the process and it has yet to be understood.
Actually we do know.

You are not considered for promotion after every game. It's more like every 10-15 games. Even if you lose the two right before the game you are considered for, if you were doing well enough before that, you can still go up.

Just go through every mission in the list and see if you completed it on the correct difficulty.
There's a bonus mission for finding the "secret" in Media Blitz. Just be thorough.
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby psion » Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:15 pm UTC

WarDaft wrote:Actually we do know.
You are not considered for promotion after every game. It's more like every 10-15 games. Even if you lose the two right before the game you are considered for, if you were doing well enough before that, you can still go up.

That'd be speculation. People have been promoted in as little as 5 games.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby WarDaft » Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:20 pm UTC

psion wrote:That'd be speculation. People have been promoted in as little as 5 games.

Would that be after the 5 placement matches, or the 5 placement + 5 regular totaling 10 played? Your placements are included in your match history.

Periodic checking for promotion eligibility is also the only reasonable way to justify sometimes being promoted following a loss or two.
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby psion » Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:25 pm UTC

Except you're placed after your placement matches... I've followed various discussions about this and none have come up with a satisfying answer. The best is this:
Spoiler:
"Maybe it will become clearer later on or someone else can figure out the exact principle of promotion. Right now it looks like 90% of people get promotion at some checkpoint when they get a win/loss ratio in recent games (5-12 games can't say more precisely) close to 50%. When that happens the system looks at your match making rating (which is hidden, read more on it in specified threads on ladder system here on TL) at that moment and compares with the players' rating ranges in the divisions. Before that happens the system decides there is no need to get you up by one division only if you can be deserving 2-3 divisions promotion in a short time. So there are a lot of players jumping 2 or more divisions by a single promotion currently. The other common way of promotion is likely to be happen at around 30-35 games checkpoint. It looks like you can get promotion this way no matter what is your record in last games you just have to be good enough by your MMR. Promotions after win streaks untill 30 games mark are incredibly rear what is against the common sense of promotion in the first place. There is no good explanation for those promotions currently."
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby WarDaft » Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:33 pm UTC

psion wrote:Except you're placed after your placement matches...

I can't possibly provide any for this support seeing as the forums have been reset, but I am rather confident that it is indeed a check for eligibility after certain random number of games played. I do not know the exact bounds, and I gave a reasonable estimate of likely range. It would be very difficult to nail down the distribution precisely, but it is very likely what is happening behind the scenes.

It could even be set to be more variable at release, or when you are just breaking into MP because it is still unsure of your placement.

Unless you have a disproportionate number of examples of people being promoted, and then promoted again in 5 more games, it's not a very convincing counterexample.

It could be something as simple as "if (random()>0.9) then doPromotionCheck()" and still convince many people that there is much more going on behind the scenes.
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Kain » Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:04 pm UTC

WarDaft wrote:
No, we have no idea. There's most likely a hidden ELO as BlackSails said, but that doesn't explain why people get promoted two leagues for a loss, or why some people get promoted immediately, and so forth. I wouldn't specifically call it mysterious, like it's some magical beast, but it's definitely difficult to reverse engineer the process and it has yet to be understood.
Actually we do know.

You are not considered for promotion after every game. It's more like every 10-15 games. Even if you lose the two right before the game you are considered for, if you were doing well enough before that, you can still go up.

Just go through every mission in the list and see if you completed it on the correct difficulty.
There's a bonus mission for finding the "secret" in Media Blitz. Just be thorough.


I did find that secret, but only on a replay after competing the campaign (I had not got the second achievement there, as the first time I simply used the intro time to destroy every worker and cc <- made for a very easy round, though of course on normal that level wasn't hard to begin with). Unfortunately, recovering the secret failed to unlock the level. Does this mean that you have to beat that level on a harder difficulty than normal while getting the secret in order to unlock the shroud level, or just that you have to do that before going to char?
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby BlackSails » Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:36 pm UTC

Its possible to gain ELO points after a loss in some ELO systems. For instance, if you narrowly lose to a much higher ranked player, the system might award you points and promote you. That requires the system to have a way to measure how close a game does, but it already does that in deciding how many (visible) points to award.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Dhes » Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:00 pm UTC

Ok so I played my 1st practice match, shouldn’t be too hard….
I was doing pretty good… at least that’s what I was thinking. Till about 17 minutes in to the game and I got hit with nuclear bombs about every 1 to 2 minutes.
So I got my army and started moving to my enemy’s bass, than I saw this.
Spoiler:
Screenshot2010-07-29 19_00_42 (800x500).jpg

Spoiler:
Screenshot2010-07-29 19_00_50 (800x500).jpg

Some more screenshots from the end game statistic.
Spoiler:
Screenshot2010-07-29 19_01_13 (800x500).jpg

Spoiler:
Screenshot2010-07-29 19_01_23 (800x500).jpg

Spoiler:
Screenshot2010-07-29 19_01_31 (800x500).jpg

So, am I just really bad, or are people already cheating in the multiplayer 2 days into the game?
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Xeio » Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:07 pm UTC

Considering he had that huge army (which is definitely not unrealistic at 17 minutes, and he probably has at LEAST 1 expansion you didn't scout) and you have very little, yes, you aren't very good in comparison to him.

I suggest watching the replay, you can learn a LOT from watching replays where you lose (and win, but losses are generally better at showing what you're doing wrong).

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Ixtellor » Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:16 pm UTC

BAH!! 7 game losing streak in bronze, i suck!

I asked one guy WTF he was playing in bronze, when he was so obviously superior and he said he was Silver league.
Do they match bronze against silver?

I really just need to learn the new units. I learned the HARD way about void rays. I was owning some guy and about to take out his entire base with roaches when 2 void rays popped out, he took out my whole army and then was in my main base owning it within 1 min after that.
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Ixtellor » Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:24 pm UTC

Some more screenshots from the end game statistic.
Spoiler:
Screenshot2010-07-29 19_01_23 (800x500).jpg

So, am I just really bad, or are people already cheating in the multiplayer 2 days into the game?


You only had 17 workers, thats one of your major problems.
You want at least 2 workers per mineral patch, and 3 on every gas.

Plus you need to scout. What were you doing for those 17 mins?

But really your biggest problem is your economy. That will solve a lot of issues:
I am guessing you never probe- attacked because you had no army.. you had no army because you had no minerals..
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby sunami » Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:26 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:BAH!! 7 game losing streak in bronze, i suck!

I asked one guy WTF he was playing in bronze, when he was so obviously superior and he said he was Silver league.
Do they match bronze against silver?

I really just need to learn the new units. I learned the HARD way about void rays. I was owning some guy and about to take out his entire base with roaches when 2 void rays popped out, he took out my whole army and then was in my main base owning it within 1 min after that.

You're matched up against players that should be in your skill range. Someone that's in Gold could be matched up against Diamond/Platinum level players if that's where they probably should be. The league promoting system is very conservative about when a player is moved to a new league (some are suggesting that it tries to get you to ~50% winrate before it moves you).
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Mo0man » Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:44 pm UTC

Couple of things: Game came out yesterday, so the rankings/placements aren't really solid, as most people haven't played tons of games.
b), you are sometimes matched up against people who are higher/lower than you are currently. However, the point bonus should reflect this fact. At the bottom of the screen, when it loads, there's a favored/unfavored thingy that shows how well the computer expects you to do

also, Dhes: You really should be constantly making workers. Don't stop. Later on, you get better at judging at what point you should give up on them, but honestly? just keep making them until you have more than you can ever hope to deal with
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Kain » Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:24 pm UTC

Did anyone else find the use of the terrible, terrible damage meme amusing? I already forgot which mission they mentioned it in, but just saw a varient of it on their website (attempting to get to map editor wiki on their site via the link on the map editor main page).
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby WarDaft » Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:21 pm UTC

Kain wrote:Did anyone else find the use of the terrible, terrible damage meme amusing? I already forgot which mission they mentioned it in, but just saw a varient of it on their website (attempting to get to map editor wiki on their site via the link on the map editor main page).

Spoiler:
When you're first landing on char.
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Dhes » Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:32 pm UTC

I looked at the replay, the wasn’t cheating just very good (at least a lot better than me :roll: )
I know now that it’s a good thing to spam workers early in the game…
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Mo0man » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:05 pm UTC

Dhes wrote:I looked at the replay, the wasn’t cheating just very good (at least a lot better than me :roll: )
I know now that it’s a good thing to spam workers early in the game…

CONSTANTLY
Don't stop.
This advice is only superceded at the point where you run out of supply.
This is because you will almost always be building workers slower than you need them.
Also, try to spend money as soon as you get it. There is almost no point in saving up. keep everything under 500 if at all possible. Even if you make stupid builds, at the lower skill levels if you spend your money as soon as you get it, and you have a lot of workers, you can beat them just by swarming them, even with poor micro and if they have the perfect counter to your unit.
If you ever find yourself with more than 700 or so, go crazy with the building of gateways/barracks.

Oh. And queuing up is BAD. try not to do it. I won't tell you never to do it, but at most queue up most two units at a time.

The rules are slightly different for the zerg, and those are mostly to deal with judgement instead of solid-ish rules like that, so I think someone else should explain the specifics. Also, I'm lazy. If I recall, it's the same basic idea. Just make sure to keep your queens producing larva, and spread the creep, in that order. If you do it properly, you shouldn't have the energy to do both with one queen per hatchery.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Diadem » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:34 pm UTC

psion wrote:I'm pretty sure you can't get the practice games back, hence the double confirmation, but I wouldn't worry about it. You only get 5, and the games are played on the slowest speed.
In the beta, your real name would be displayed to a friend if you added them via facebook or e-mail. I'd assume this is still the case.
Placements and promotions/demotions are extremely ambiguous. No one knows how it works except Blizzard.

Thanks for the answers.

I did my placement matches rather badly (still had to get used to everything) and ended up in bronze. There I won 8 matches in a row and got promoted to silver. Haven't tried silver yet. I think I should be able to reach gold though, once I got all the keyboard shortcuts down and my build orders figured out.

Two more questions, in technical, one strategic.
1) In the campaign, I tried replaying a few missions to get the mission achievements (which worked), but I don't seem to be getting the "complete x missions on hard" achievement. Does that one(and the brutal one) have to be done on first playthrough?

2) How the hell do you counter cloaked wraiths as protoss? I've lost 3 times against them now, and each time they attacked me before I had any sort of detection, the first time even before I had a forge. What the heck. Even with a forge, two of them will kill all your probes before you can put up a photon cannon (if they don't just kill the cannon while it's being constructed). And if you spent your resources on both a forge *and* a cannon that early in the game, you'll be so far behind that you'll lose against every other strategy, so that's not really an option either. So how do you counter them?
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Mo0man » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:46 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:2) How the hell do you counter cloaked wraiths as protoss? I've lost 3 times against them now, and each time they attacked me before I had any sort of detection, the first time even before I had a forge. What the heck. Even with a forge, two of them will kill all your probes before you can put up a photon cannon (if they don't just kill the cannon while it's being constructed). And if you spent your resources on both a forge *and* a cannon that early in the game, you'll be so far behind that you'll lose against every other strategy, so that's not really an option either. So how do you counter them?
You're talking... multiplayer? There aren't any wraiths in multiplayer, or at least there shouldn't be. But even if it was, I suggest build faster, or scout. Compare
Barracks -> Factory -> Starport -> Tech lab -> Cloak Research
->Banshee
VS

Forge -> Cannon
Or even
Gate -> Cyber Core -> Robo -> Observer

And the terran build is so gas intensive that if you scout their base and see them dropping both refineries early, you should be able to tell

Also, in hindsight I realize that you're talking about Banshees, and it's entirely understandable that you put wraiths, given that they're cloaked. Sorry for the patronising tone
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Diadem » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:47 pm UTC

Lots of speculation in this thread about how promotion works.

Here's another question: What do those leagues do anyway?

You don't seem to be matched against people of your league. Promotion doesn't seem to be based on your position in the league. And the bronze league I got put in at first only had 60 people in it, somehow I think there must be more people playing SC2 in Europe, even 2 days after release. Silver league has about 100 or so. So clearly not everybody is counted. They have multiple bronze leagues running simultaniously? What's the point in that, even you aren't matched against people in your own league and promotion isn't based on your position in the league.

It seems to be just a poor way of keeping track of your skill level, or something. Like warcraft III, which had levels based on skill, and you could loose and gain levels depending on how you did. This seems to be the same, except more confusing.

Mo0man wrote:
Diadem wrote:2) How the hell do you counter cloaked wraiths as protoss? I've lost 3 times against them now, and each time they attacked me before I had any sort of detection, the first time even before I had a forge. What the heck. Even with a forge, two of them will kill all your probes before you can put up a photon cannon (if they don't just kill the cannon while it's being constructed). And if you spent your resources on both a forge *and* a cannon that early in the game, you'll be so far behind that you'll lose against every other strategy, so that's not really an option either. So how do you counter them?
You're talking... multiplayer? There aren't any wraiths in multiplayer, or at least there shouldn't be.

Yeah I'm talking multiplayer. I guess they are called banshees in multiplayer?
But even if it was, I suggest build faster, or scout. Compare
Barracks -> Factory -> Starport -> Tech lab -> Cloak Research
->Banshee
VS

Forge -> Cannon
Or even
Gate -> Cyber Core -> Robo -> Observer

And the terran build is so gas intensive that if you scout their base and see them dropping both refineries early, you should be able to tell

The problem is not that you can't counter it on time. The problem is that countering them is a very expensive investment that only pays off against one potential build, meaning you just waste a lot of money (and probably lose twenty dollars and my self respect as a result) against any other build. A forge is 200 gold, a cannon 150. And you probably need 2 cannons to make sure you're safe. Building that means I'll have next to no units to defend against a rush.

Also, scounting terrans is usually not possible because they block their entrance.

Maybe a robotics bay is the way to go. Observers are pretty awesome anyway, and a robo has the extra advantage of making your enemy wonder what you are up to.

Also, in hindsight I realize that you're talking about Banshees, and it's entirely understandable that you put wraiths, given that they're cloaked. Sorry for the patronising tone

No problem :)
And yeah, I was talking about banshees. It's been a while, but I'm quite sure the unit that filled that role was called a wraith in SC1. And those are in the singleplayer campaign. I still haven't figured out what the difference between the two is :P There's both flyers that can cloak. I think one can attack air and one can't right? Anyway I'm only halfway through the campaign so I only just played one mission with either of them.
Last edited by Diadem on Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:55 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Midnight
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Midnight » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:53 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:Lots of speculation in this thread about how promotion works.

Here's another question: What do those leagues do anyway?

You don't seem to be matched against people of your league. Promotion doesn't seem to be based on your position in the league. And the bronze league I got put in at first only had 60 people in it, somehow I think there must be more people playing SC2 in Europe, even 2 days after release. Silver league has about 100 or so. So clearly not everybody is counted. They have multiple bronze leagues running simultaniously? What's the point in that, even you aren't matched against people in your own league and promotion isn't based on your position in the league.

It seems to be just a poor way of keeping track of your skill level, or something. Like warcraft III, which had levels based on skill, and you could loose and gain levels depending on how you did. This seems to be the same, except more confusing.


umm yeah there's 5 levels of leagues, diamond/platinum/gold/silver/bronze, but yeah there's hundreds of each league. and you can get higher in the league with wins, by your elo rating. and then you can get placed in higher leagues. the higher leagues are equivalent of higher levels in warcraft, except you can drop again if you start sucking.
uhhhh fuck.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Diadem » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:58 pm UTC

Midnight wrote:
Diadem wrote:Lots of speculation in this thread about how promotion works.

Here's another question: What do those leagues do anyway?

You don't seem to be matched against people of your league. Promotion doesn't seem to be based on your position in the league. And the bronze league I got put in at first only had 60 people in it, somehow I think there must be more people playing SC2 in Europe, even 2 days after release. Silver league has about 100 or so. So clearly not everybody is counted. They have multiple bronze leagues running simultaniously? What's the point in that, even you aren't matched against people in your own league and promotion isn't based on your position in the league.

It seems to be just a poor way of keeping track of your skill level, or something. Like warcraft III, which had levels based on skill, and you could loose and gain levels depending on how you did. This seems to be the same, except more confusing.


umm yeah there's 5 levels of leagues, diamond/platinum/gold/silver/bronze, but yeah there's hundreds of each league. and you can get higher in the league with wins, by your elo rating. and then you can get placed in higher leagues. the higher leagues are equivalent of higher levels in warcraft, except you can drop again if you start sucking.

yeah but that doesn't really answer the question of what the point of a league is if you aren't matched against players in your own league anyway. I mean, skill-based ranks make sense. But why put me in a specific league with a list of players I can compare myself against, when that's only 0.1% of the players of my level, and I'm never gonna see or meet those specific players ingame.
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Serin » Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:25 pm UTC

I think it was just so you can have a better measure of your progress, just a set of people that wont change until you move into a new league. At least better then the old ladder system from sc1, I remember winning or losing 1 match and going up or down several thousand places.


Spoiler:
Q. How do your placement matches calculate which league you will be joining?
A. During your placement matches we match you against players from a wide variety of players and skill levels and we watch the results; whether you win or lose. From this, we are able to determine your ability and place you in a league that we believe to be appropriate for your level of play.

Q. How do we move up in rank in your division? For example, from rank 51 to rank 44.
A. Simply by competing with other players and winning. However, it is important to remember that the individual matches themselves can vary in points awarded based on the rated difficulty of your opponent.

Example: Player A may have a win-loss ratio of 19-17 and be ranked in the Silver League at 35; while player B may have a win-loss ratio of 18-19, but because of the difficulty of some of those matches (say playing against Gold League players) he either received more points for a win or lost less for a loss.

Q. How do players move down in rank on the ladder? For example, from rank 44 to rank 51.
A. This is done simply by losing matches. You are ranked relative to everyone in your division within your league. The amount of points you lose per match is comparable to how points are calculated when you win. If you lose to someone who is rated higher than you, you should lose less points then if you were to lose to someone who was rated lower than you.

Q. What is the relevance of the Favored indicator and how does that effect the points distributed from winning or losing a match?
A. The Favored indicator helps give you an idea of whether the contender you’re pitted against is considered to be even with you, challenging to you, extremely challenging to you or not a challenge.

Currently there is a known bug where the score screen will display a level of you or your opponent being favored that's incorrect. The loading screen however shows the correct level of 'favoritism'.

You can use the level of 'favoritism' to gauge the number of points you are likely to gain or lose after the match depending on the result.

Q. What are the league ranks?
A. Copper, Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum. In that order. There is also the practice league for player's starting out and there may be other special leagues created in the future, such as an invite-only pro league.

Q. How does a player move laterally from one division to an adjacent division in the same metallic league? (For Example, From Division 5 Silver League to Division 4 Silver League.)
A. In theory, they shouldn't. There have been some select cases where this has happened, but this is a known issue in the current beta build and is being looked into.

Q. Do the different numbered divisions indicate various levels of skill; is 4 a slightly tougher division than 5?
A. No. The divisions are sectioned off so that we have the appropriate amount of people in each.

Q. How does a player move from one league to another? (For Example: from Silver league to Gold.)
A. After you’ve finished your initial placement, the system continues to review your performance and determines what league you should be placed in based on those reviews. The time and frequency of these reviews is kept hidden.

Q. Are matches ever made between different leagues? (For Example: A Gold league player playing against a Silver league player in a rated match.)
A. Yes, you may be matched up against players from different leagues to test your skill. So be on your guard and play your best in every match.

Q. What is the bonus pool and how are bonus points acquired?
A. The Bonus Pool (incorrectly called "Rested Points" in some parts of the UI) is an accumulation of points that every player receives whether they're online and playing or not. They're essentially used as a means to help give a player a catch-up boost if they haven't played in a while. The pool does have a cap but it increases slowly until the end of a season.

Q. How is the bonus pool used in competitive play?
A. When you achieve victory against another player, you are awarded a certain number of points. The Bonus Pool points will match the number of points you received for winning.

For example: If you were to have a Bonus Pool of 30 and you win a match that would normally give you 10 points, points will then be pulled from your Bonus Pool to match those 10 points and you'll be awarded 20 points for winning that game. Your bonus pool will then sit at 20. (We're aware of an issue your bonus pool not displaying properly in some parts of the UI).

from http://starcraft.org/blogs/starcraft/233

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Kain » Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:08 am UTC

So, anyone have any tips on getting the Not So Brutalisk achievement? I thought I would use marauders to slow it down to kite it, but that didn't seem to work all too well. Maybe group them up with one on point, and rotate the injured to the back? Or does it use an AoE?

Oh, and just in case anyone is wondering: you can get the completionist achievements from two different runs of the campaign (if, say, you missed the bonus level on the first run, and thus had to redo the campaign up to that point), even though checking the achievements while in the campaign makes it appear that they all have to be from a single run.

I should really get back to multiplayer, but the campaign is just so fun! That and I think I have slightly more of a chance of getting the Kerrigan Avatar before the end of the year than the Nova one, though I will definitely need some practice to beat those on brutal, as
Spoiler:
the running from the hybrid in shroud took me down to just Raynor in normal, I only achieved 1501 kills in the toss v hyb mission, no lie, and I was down to four battleships defending the artifact in the final mission
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby WarDaft » Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:42 am UTC

Kain wrote:
Spoiler:
the running from the hybrid in shroud took me down to just Raynor in normal, I only achieved 1501 kills in the toss v hyb mission, no lie, and I was down to four battleships defending the artifact in the final mission
Spoiler:
For All In, you want more Siege Tanks. Wall off with raxes. Siege Tanks liquefy Zerg, and Raxes can tank enough damage to be repairable.
All Shadow priest spells that deal Fire damage now appear green.
Big freaky cereal boxes of death.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Kain » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:00 am UTC

WarDaft wrote:
Kain wrote:
Spoiler:
the running from the hybrid in shroud took me down to just Raynor in normal, I only achieved 1501 kills in the toss v hyb mission, no lie, and I was down to four battleships defending the artifact in the final mission
Spoiler:
For All In, you want more Siege Tanks. Wall off with raxes. Siege Tanks liquefy Zerg, and Raxes can tank enough damage to be repairable.

Spoiler:
does that mean that I should go for the improved health rather than the shrike cannon?
Look, you know it's serious when a bunch of people in full armor and gear come charging in to fight a pond of chickens - Steax

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Diadem » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:49 am UTC

What the heck are raxes? Only thing I can think of is 'barracks', but that doesn't make sense in this context.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Soralin » Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:10 pm UTC

yeah, barracks, and it can make sense in this situation. A barracks only costs 150 minerals, and it has 1000 health, compared to the 400 health (550 if you take that upgrade) of a 100 mineral bunker, so they can end up being rather cost effective barricade. Although with ranged units, they could just shoot at them from outside your range, or shoot at your units over the top of them, but that's where the very long range of the siege tanks would come in.
Last edited by Soralin on Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:12 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby phlip » Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:10 pm UTC

I'm trying to install SC2 now... you are now my enemy, "This service is not available" message on battle.net login screen...

Code: Select all

enum ಠ_ಠ {°□°╰=1, °Д°╰, ಠ益ಠ╰};
void ┻━┻︵​╰(ಠ_ಠ ⚠) {exit((int)⚠);}
[he/him/his]


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