Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

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achan1058
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby achan1058 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:25 pm UTC

Fast expand as well? You have been floating on 400ish minerals at the 20 supply mark.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:28 pm UTC

achan1058 wrote:Fast expand as well? You have been floating on 400ish minerals at the 20 supply mark.


Wouldn't that be destroyed by the baneling death-ball that you normally need a 2-building thick wall to fend off? I don't think I have enough structures to plug the entry to the expansion.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby achan1058 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:34 pm UTC

I am not an expert on this, but 1 rax FE seems to be a common build.

On another note, I strongly question your decision not to get stim and combat shields. (He's also on 2-2, while you are on 1-0.)
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby mike-l » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:35 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:
mike-l wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:This is why I don't like zerg.

banelings.zip


You turtled on one base for 15 minutes after seeing him fast expand. What did you expect?


He had banelings. How am I supposed to defend an expansion against banelings?! Also, there was a zerg base in my natural, which took a while to clear out.

My point is, I had a bigger army, and it was made mostly of stuff that's supposedly good against banelings. Not only did he roflpwn my entire army, he had enough crap left to raze my main.


You didn't have a bigger army, your tanks weren't sieged, and everything was in a giant ball which maximizes baneling damage. You wasted scans which could have been mules, and you basically let him do whatever the hell he wanted the entire game, aside from a very small marine push near the start. Your loss had absolutely nothing to do with TvZ balance.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:45 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:
mike-l wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:This is why I don't like zerg.

banelings.zip


You turtled on one base for 15 minutes after seeing him fast expand. What did you expect?


He had banelings. How am I supposed to defend an expansion against banelings?! Also, there was a zerg base in my natural, which took a while to clear out.

My point is, I had a bigger army, and it was made mostly of stuff that's supposedly good against banelings. Not only did he roflpwn my entire army, he had enough crap left to raze my main.


You didn't have a bigger army, your tanks weren't sieged, and everything was in a giant ball which maximizes baneling damage. You wasted scans which could have been mules, and you basically let him do whatever the hell he wanted the entire game, aside from a very small marine push near the start. Your loss had absolutely nothing to do with TvZ balance.


Look at the army tab. My army cost almost twice as much as his at the point where he steamrolls it. And given how many banelings he had left, he'd easily been able to destroy an army twice the one I had.

And I've never said zerg is OP. I'm saying I have absolutely no idea how to win against zerg, other than turtling and hoping their connection drops.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby achan1058 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:48 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:Look at the army tab. My army cost almost twice as much as his at the point where he steamrolls it. And given how many banelings he had left, he'd easily been able to destroy an army twice the one I had.

And I've never said zerg is OP. I'm saying I have absolutely no idea how to win against zerg, other than turtling and hoping their connection drops.
No it does not. They are about equal at the very least, and his is probably better. Yours cost 500 more minerals, his cost 1000 more gas. Anyways, put up a replay where you actually got stim and combat shields.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby mike-l » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:55 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:Look at the army tab. My army cost almost twice as much as his at the point where he steamrolls it. And given how many banelings he had left, he'd easily been able to destroy an army twice the one I had.


I did actually, he had slightly less minerals in his army, and a lot more gas. And in cost of units lost, it was very close in the end too, you lost less than 20% more than he did.

Banelings are made to kill clumped up things, and your entire army was clumped.

But this wasn't your problem, you played far too passively. You didn't even know about the expansion at your own natural until the creep came up to your ramp. (And then you scanned when a single marine would have done the same job).

You built far more than you could support on one base (3 barracks with addons, a factory, and a starport), you got upgrades that you didn't use, you didn't buy stim or combat shields, you moved out as you were expanding which is when you've sunk the most money into the expo and gotten back the least. He had over twice the economy of you. You don't want to expand because you find it hard to defend, but you didn't make him defend any of his expansions.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:01 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:Look at the army tab. My army cost almost twice as much as his at the point where he steamrolls it. And given how many banelings he had left, he'd easily been able to destroy an army twice the one I had.

Banelings are made to kill clumped up things, and your entire army was clumped.


I don't know of any way to move units without clumping them. There isn't a scatter key like in Red Alert. And manually scattering the units at every waypoint would have it take 15 minutes to get across the map.

mike-l wrote:But this wasn't your problem, you played far too passively. You didn't even know about the expansion at your own natural until the creep came up to your ramp. (And then you scanned when a single marine would have done the same job).

You built far more than you could support on one base (3 barracks with addons, a factory, and a starport), you got upgrades that you didn't use, you didn't buy stim or combat shields, you moved out as you were expanding which is when you've sunk the most money into the expo and gotten back the least. He had over twice the economy of you. You don't want to expand because you find it hard to defend, but you didn't make him defend any of his expansions.


Zerg is soo mobile and does so much damage. If I leave my base, then he just moves his army at Mach 3 and attacks my base. The only fast terran unit is hellions, and they can't damage structures or air.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby BlackSails » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:07 pm UTC


I don't know of any way to move units without clumping them. There isn't a scatter key like in Red Alert. And manually scattering the units at every waypoint would have it take 15 minutes to get across the map.


Have more than 1 control group, and spread your units manually when you spot the zerg army.

Never move outside of siege tank range. Push forward by leapfrogging your tanks. Force the creep back, and now you can have groups of marines run in and draw units back, since off creep, stimmed marines are way faster than banelings.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:20 pm UTC

Unsieged tanks are terrible against banelings. Siege them, or at least half while you leapfrog with the other half.

That replay you linked had far more mistakes than just unit composition to work on. As others have said, expand timing, scouting, upgrades, stim, sieging tanks and general macro are all bigger issues.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:22 pm UTC

Game_boy wrote:Unsieged tanks are terrible against banelings. Siege them, or at least half while you leapfrog with the other half.

That replay you linked had far more mistakes than just unit composition to work on. As others have said, expand timing, scouting, upgrades, stim, sieging tanks and general macro are all bigger issues.


I know. I've gotten so rusty since I've been away for like 6 months. But even 6 months ago, when I was platinum, I had serious fucking trouble dealing with TvZ. But it's horrible to see how my APM has dropped by around 30-40 points. And I keep forgetting stuff.

But this guy was mid ranked bronze league.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Swivelguy » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:40 pm UTC

What would be the ideal thing for a terran player to have when going up against the standard protoss deathball of gateway units + colossi?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:58 pm UTC

Swivelguy wrote:What would be the ideal thing for a terran player to have when going up against the standard protoss deathball of gateway units + colossi?


http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4687902/

May be relevant.

But I usually just bioball+medivac+tank and snipe the colossi with marauders. Works well so long as it's not a metric crapton of colossi with a few gateway units.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Mo0man » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:17 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:
achan1058 wrote:Fast expand as well? You have been floating on 400ish minerals at the 20 supply mark.

Wouldn't that be destroyed by the baneling death-ball that you normally need a 2-building thick wall to fend off? I don't think I have enough structures to plug the entry to the expansion.
If you don't want to fast expand, do something else. Don't just float minerals.
You, sir, name? wrote:But this guy was mid ranked bronze league.
Apparently, in the past six months, not only have you gotten worse due to lack of practice, people have gotten better over time
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:30 pm UTC

Mo0man wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:
achan1058 wrote:Fast expand as well? You have been floating on 400ish minerals at the 20 supply mark.

Wouldn't that be destroyed by the baneling death-ball that you normally need a 2-building thick wall to fend off? I don't think I have enough structures to plug the entry to the expansion.
If you don't want to fast expand, do something else. Don't just float minerals.
You, sir, name? wrote:But this guy was mid ranked bronze league.
Apparently, in the past six months, not only have you gotten worse due to lack of practice, people have gotten better over time


I don't know about better, but the fashionable strategies have changed. Every third TvP game used to be either proxy PCs or mass void rays. Haven't seen those once as of yet. And reaper rushes seem to have fallen out of favor too.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Jesse » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:38 pm UTC

Reaper rushes died at the end of the beta.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:44 pm UTC

Jesse wrote:Reaper rushes died at the end of the beta.


5 rax reaper was still alive and kicking when I played (september-early november-ish?). Like most cheese, it was reasonably efficient if it wasn't scouted. But I think reapers may have been nerfed now. Don't know, though, as I rarely ever use them.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Mo0man » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:45 pm UTC

Well, the point is that there were many reasons as to why the guy won, specific reasons pointed out by other posters, and you said "But this guy was mid ranked bronze"

Fashion doesn't come into it.

And scanning the expo right outside your base instead of sending a single marine was ridiculous. Finding out that he not only started, but finished a hatchery, doubly so.

I mean, it could be that this guy has been losing a bunch of games on purpose, and that's why he's still midranked bronze. Or it could be that people in general have gotten better. Point is, you shouldn't be calling into question the balance of ZvT, or the balance of banelings, as a result of that game.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:47 pm UTC

Now that it isn't a standard build, there has been a lot more effective reaper builds recently (probably ~10 recent tournament games I watched), getting one out for scouting and watchtower control early (especially TvP because standard builds don't take into account how fast you need that stalker). And qxc did some great reaper harass in the midgame and lategame on Xelnaga in the TSL. They kill probes so fast at expos.

Yes, they nerfed reapers indirectly by making the barracks require a supply depot first and moving reaper speed to factory tech. Still a great scout and harass unit, just massing them is ineffective now.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:48 pm UTC

Mo0man wrote:I mean, it could be that this guy has been losing a bunch of games on purpose, and that's why he's still midranked bronze. Or it could be that people in general have gotten better. Point is, you shouldn't be calling into question the balance of ZvT, or the balance of banelings, as a result of that game.


Why do people keep assuming that I blame ZvT balance? I'm rubbish in ZvT, to the point where the only strategy I've developed that allows me to survive to the 15 minute mark is to not expand and just stay in my main. I don't know how to deal with zerg. That is and remains the problem. For a long while I just surrendered when I was pitted against zerg, as that would save me time I could spend fighting a race I knew how to defeat.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Mo0man » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:56 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:I still see that zerg are completely unbeatable. Out of the hundred or so TvZ games I've played, I think I've won about ten. They just build units so quickly, I do not understand what to doAnd I think it's wrong that the thing that can stop a roach is a 200/200 battlecruiser army.
This is why I don't like zerg.

Things like this make people think you're arguing that zerg is imbalanced
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:03 am UTC

Mo0man wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:I still see that zerg are completely unbeatable. Out of the hundred or so TvZ games I've played, I think I've won about ten. They just build units so quickly, I do not understand what to doAnd I think it's wrong that the thing that can stop a roach is a 200/200 battlecruiser army.


Re-highlighted that for you. My problem is that no matter what I do, I get absolutely steamrolled by zerg. I don't know what to use against roaches, as the only thing that seems to be able to safely engage them is battlecruisers and banshees. Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

Mo0man wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:
This is why I don't like zerg.

Things like this make people think you're arguing that zerg is imbalanced


Well, I don't like zerg. They're probably not OP, as other people seem to have no difficulty in fighting them, but while I have no problem with TvP, no real issues with TvT, I just don't stand a chance in TvZ. It's a complete one-sided massacre, game after game after game.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Mo0man » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:12 am UTC

Tanks beat massed roaches. Marauders with micro do as well. If you learn to stutter step with marauders, you'll always win in smaller encounters, and roaches will never, ever be able to win against tanks with seige unless they've got a huge, huge (and by huge I mean a 100 food advantage).

To beat banelings, the micro is simple. doubleclick a marine and set all of them to a separate control group. If you see them, stim and run the marines, while the rest of your army annihilates the baneling army.

By the way, if the zerg ever uses banelings to kill a command center, you've won, as they've spent several thousand in minerals and gas to kill a 400 mineral building
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Jesse » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:14 am UTC

Part of the problem is that having hard counter units is good, but simply having mre stuff with better upgrades will win you the game. So if I make Roaches and you make marauders, you'll win, unless I have more bases than you (meaning I get more roaches) and my roaches are at 2-2 and your marauders are at 1-0 in upgrades. Economy is super important, so never scan unless you have to (burrowed banelings or roaches or something (although at that point I tend to stick a Raven into my MMM just to be safe anyways)) and get a second base. Control the towers and if they send banelings down then siege up your tanks and kill them all or run your workers away and either stim your marines or stick a couple of marauders out there, which banelings are near useless against.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:19 am UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:
achan1058 wrote:Fast expand as well? You have been floating on 400ish minerals at the 20 supply mark.


Wouldn't that be destroyed by the baneling death-ball that you normally need a 2-building thick wall to fend off? I don't think I have enough structures to plug the entry to the expansion.

I also tend to struggle with my TvZ. The best advice I can give from my own matches (watching the replays where I lose) is be aggressive... The weak point of Zerg is that they can't build units/drones at the same time. The strong point is that they can produce a metric fuckton of units at once. They can only do the latter if they have the income to do so.

If you just keep making scvs and units and throwing them (vaguely cost-efficiently) at a Z player, you should win unless they have far superior macro. Just keep forcing them to make units and they never get a chance to drone up heavily while you can keep making scvs and eventually your higher income should pay off.

Also, hopefully I should get promoted again soon. I went 4-1 against only platinum opponents last night...

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby yurell » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:56 am UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:This is why I don't like zerg.

banelings.zip


You may want to try this site to upload Ladder SC2 games:
http://replayfu.com/

You just need to paste the link once you've uploaded, instead of having to upload the file separately. Plus it will also give the stats of each player that played.

I watched your replay, and I must say that your assertions are wildly inaccurate. Instead of saying 'this is why I dislike zerg', go back and watch it for your own mistakes (that's how I get better ... I'm only high silver myself, though).
For starters, you did not have a bigger army - the zerg did. In fact, he had thrice as many banelings as you had units in total. His army was much more massive and expensive than your own - for the 15 minute mark, that was a tiny terran army (perhaps something for you to work on with practise).

About four minutes in you had 400 minerals, and you never dropped below this amount - in fact, it grew even larger. Why didn't you spend it? An earlier third rax would have been quite helpful - go through your replay, and note the times that you had too much money. Try to keep the minerals below 600 if you can. Also, you had no vision that entire game, so you had no idea what he was doing (as it turns out, he was on three bases which is exceptionally difficult for a terran on one base to beat). A three base army will be bigger than a one base, especially with gas, and a zerg with three bases means that he has the means to produce a huge number of units at once ... you really need a timing push to kill that before the third base pays itself off. Otherwise, you should expand faster (you could have defended your expansion, methinks). I understand that you may have problems with expanding, but quite frankly the money is better spent on an expo than sitting in the bank. Worse comes to worse, you would have had to make it a PF, which would stop any number of zerglings.

You really needed to leapfrog your tanks - siege them up, move your army forward ... unsieged tanks die really easily. Another important thing is to not stand there like a deer in the headlights - when you see the banelings, micro. You really need to have stim, otherwise the banelings will just run down your army. As for destroying a baneling ball that big ... don't let it get that big. I'm afraid I don't have the experience with fighting a large baneling ball to help you, but he should never have gotten it up in the first place. A hundred banelings cost 50 larvae, 5 000 minerals and 2 500 gas ... it's a very expensive thing in which to invest, especially since half died on contact with your army.
While we're on the topic of armies, I saw you attack at the seven-minute mark with eight marines ... this is when I'd expect a full protoss threegate to come. You saw that he had fast expanded (looked like a 14-hatch IIRC), and by the seven minute mark any race can throw up a defence large enough to kill eight marines, especially if they see it coming.

When I'm fighting against Terran, I tend to find the scariest thing is a well-prepared bioball with tank support, and the single most irritating problem they give is banshee harass. Good players will often drop me at the same time, so if I am relying on one control group syndrome I can't possibly fight the army and the guys eating my mineral line.

In reality, though, the problem with that game was your macro - you simply needed to have more stuff. Chances are that if you're below platinum, macro is the issue, and it's something that just takes practise to improve.

P.S. If I sound at all condescending, I honestly don't mean to.

Edit: You may find this helpful: http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4513052/
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ldood » Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:05 am UTC

For those that ranked up from bronze, to any other league, how long did it take you?

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:07 pm UTC

I've decided that you, sir, name? is right. Fighting Zerg as Terran is tough. I mean in this game my Terran opponent had complete map control, a more valuable army, and was even able to harass my bases when I suddenly showed up with a small force and completely steamrolled everything he had.

Wait, no, other way around. And I seriously need to learn to use Banelings.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:28 pm UTC

Ldood wrote:For those that ranked up from bronze, to any other league, how long did it take you?


I landed into gold, after 10ish games went back into silver, then after 50ish games back into gold.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:52 pm UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:I've decided that you, sir, name? is right. Fighting Zerg as Terran is tough. I mean in this game my Terran opponent had complete map control, a more valuable army, and was even able to harass my bases when I suddenly showed up with a small force and completely steamrolled everything he had.

Wait, no, other way around. And I seriously need to learn to use Banelings.


Why didn't you just attack his main with your mutas as he moved out to attack you? Attacking a marine+viking ball with mutas is just throwing them away. You could have easily wrecked his income and production capabilities, cutting off all hope of producing any sort of reinforcements.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:18 pm UTC

So we do a base swap, but he comes out of it with an army that can beat mine? No, my best hope was that he would mis-micro something badly enough that I could get his army.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:38 pm UTC

On a different note, how many harvesters are too many harvesters? I feel really apprehensive about building more than 40-50 or so, as when you have around 60 SCVs, they start to eat into your supply limit in a way that has you losing battles.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby achan1058 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:07 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:On a different note, how many harvesters are too many harvesters? I feel really apprehensive about building more than 40-50 or so, as when you have around 60 SCVs, they start to eat into your supply limit in a way that has you losing battles.
Pros usually go up to 80, or occasionally 100, from what I have seen. If you feel like you have too many harvesters on 1 base, expand. Until you are at the high end (of the ladder), just keep building more.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:15 pm UTC

My last game I had around 70 at the highest point. If you stop at 40-50 against a decent macro player you will max slower, which means you shouldn't have a unit advantage anyway. If you insist on waiting after you max before attacking someone (hence they also max off less wokwers) then also add a lot more production once you max, so you can remax quickly afterwards.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:19 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:On a different note, how many harvesters are too many harvesters? I feel really apprehensive about building more than 40-50 or so, as when you have around 60 SCVs, they start to eat into your supply limit in a way that has you losing battles.


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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:26 pm UTC

Suppose player A has 100 workers gathering (actually gathering, none lying around doing nothing) and player B has 50 workers gathering. Both players are supply capped, so player A has a 100 supply army, and player B has a 150 supply army. Assume that the both players have been doing a find job of scouting and army composition, so that neither army clearly counters the other except for size. We will also assume that both armies are roughly the same cost per supply, not taking advantage of player A's potential advantage of using more expensive units that cost the same supply amount. Assume that both players are equally skilled when it comes to battle.

So, the statistical outcome of a battle to the death between the two armies is the complete destruction of player A's army, and player B's army being reduced to approximately 100 supply (we can actually calculate this based on the assumptions we have made above!) This really sucks for player A.

However, that's not what usually happens. Player B wants to force such a battle to the death, because that basically hands them the game, but player A wants minor skirmishes.

The reason player B wins with such a massive army left is because of negative feedback during the battle. Losses will be proportional to your opponent's army size. As army sizes dwindle, player A's army dwindles faster than player B's, and thus the rate at which player B's army is reduced starts off lower and decreases faster than the rate that player A's army is reduced. However, in a very brief skirmish, losses are roughly proportional to the opposing army's initial size. Consider a brief exchange where player A's army is reduced to 85 supply and player B's army is reduced to 140 supply. Player A has 50% greater losses, but twice the income, making it roughly 1/3rd more difficult for player B to recoup their losses than player A. Overall, player A just pulled ahead.


This is a drastic oversimplification, but it demonstrates the basic principles of economy vs army size.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby achan1058 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:33 pm UTC

But why would you wait til both players are maxed before engaging? If you engage when you are maxed because of higher economy, and him not maxed, then the math would be different, and significantly in your favour.

And since the person asking is playing terran. He can just sack his SCV's later and build orbitals for a 180 supply army anyways.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Mo0man » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:38 pm UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:I've decided that you, sir, name? is right. Fighting Zerg as Terran is tough. I mean in this game my Terran opponent had complete map control, a more valuable army, and was even able to harass my bases when I suddenly showed up with a small force and completely steamrolled everything he had.
Wait, no, other way around. And I seriously need to learn to use Banelings.

You had several problems. First of all, you took your 3rd (and all those other bases) way too late. Take them as soon as you're able. Second, your army wasn't especially very cost effective. You had 32 mutas. 18 roaches, and 30lings which didn't even attack until after the battle was over. Now granted, mutas are extremely effective, but using them in an army value comparison just shouldn't be done, especially since you're against an army almost made completely of marines.
Third, you chose the absolutely worst place and time to attack. You've had perfect scouting on them before the battle. You know know exactly when the tanks are unseiged. You know exactly when the terran isn't in a choke point. So what if the terran takes that base? you've got like twelve other ones.
Fourth, get some macro hatches. With inject. You died with 4000 minerals. Could you imagine if after the battle, you immediately had 160 lings? And you, you weren't even maxed at that point.
Sixth, yes, you had almost complete map control, only it was everywhere except where it mattered: outside of the terran base. If you had known exactly when the terran army moved out, you could have gone to the terran base with mutas, taken a few tanks, vikings, marines, and been home for dinner. Or he would have had to go back and defend, buying you more time to get a better army. Or he would have panicked, moved forward too quickly, allowing you to hit the tanks where they were vulnerable.

Of all of them, I think the most important one is the third; I think you might have panicked when you saw that you were losing the hatch, and you thought you needed to attack right away. You didn't. Let the hatch die. Arrange your forces so that they surround the terrans'. Use up all your larva. When you see the tanks unseige and start to move, THEN you attack.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:50 pm UTC

achan1058 wrote:But why would you wait til both players are maxed before engaging? If you engage when you are maxed because of higher economy, and him not maxed, then the math would be different, and significantly in your favour.

And since the person asking is playing terran. He can just sack his SCV's later and build orbitals for a 180 supply army anyways.

Expansions cost resources. Until you are at the supply cap it is not a trivial question as to who has the larger army, and my analysis was simply not that in-depth.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby broken_escalator » Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:39 pm UTC

I've been practicing against computers, trying to get the feel for micro and everything. I've decided to try playing terran, but I kinda suck at micro because I'm too lazy to do it. So far my games seem to be put up a small group of marines + bunkers for initial defense. Then get hellions or reapers to harass their workers while I build up a few tanks. I try to make my army composed of MMM and tanks, maybe throw some thor in there... but I almost always end up just massing BC mixed with banshees.

Is protoss less micro oriented? I think I could play them, but I've always had trouble playing zerg. I get how the queen works and all that, but I never know what units to create other than lots of roaches.


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