Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby BlackSails » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:13 pm UTC

Imo, the biggest change of the ghost cost is going to be early game ghost timings in all 3 matchups.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:05 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:If the game turns into a macro game, yes. But if you are still at 1-2 bases, 50 gas per ghost really means a lot.

Later on they can be used as DTs. Protoss suck at detection: even if you don't have enough to scan the obs, you can just emp it to reveal it. Oh, it's a low hp light unit! Pow!
Then the probes suffer.

I didn't do that because of the humongous gas cost, but will start doing this a lot more.

Against Z you can also snipe overseers pretty effectively.

Another interesting use I saw of ghosts recently was a TvZ from one of the european cup finals, where rather than tanks, the bio was supported by ghosts, which were using snipe on the banelings before they hit. It was reasonably effective, even if he did end up losing.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kain » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:23 am UTC

|Erasmus| wrote:
Menacing Spike wrote:If the game turns into a macro game, yes. But if you are still at 1-2 bases, 50 gas per ghost really means a lot.

Later on they can be used as DTs. Protoss suck at detection: even if you don't have enough to scan the obs, you can just emp it to reveal it. Oh, it's a low hp light unit! Pow!
Then the probes suffer.

I didn't do that because of the humongous gas cost, but will start doing this a lot more.

Against Z you can also snipe overseers pretty effectively.

Another interesting use I saw of ghosts recently was a TvZ from one of the european cup finals, where rather than tanks, the bio was supported by ghosts, which were using snipe on the banelings before they hit. It was reasonably effective, even if he did end up losing.


Early last season, I remember trying something like that while trying to get the professionals have standards achievement. Doesn't work so well when you are in bronze (and I doubt that it would work well with my current silverish skills either).
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:16 am UTC

TheBanana wrote:Also interested about how warp game timing will affect PvZ since any warp gate rushes will be quite a bit later but Z's won't be able to 15 hatch cause of easy early zealot / 2 gate pressure.

I tested it on the PTR. On larger maps like Taldarim it's not actually possible for protoss to do a deadly 2gate build because of the probe travel time, not even considering that it's a 4 player map. So 15 hatch is still possible. On smaller maps as long as you scout fast enough it's possible to cancel the hatch and get a pool and still hold off the proxy, though you do need to be relatively fast about it.

That said, I don't even remember the last time I went hatch before pool in PvZ because of cannons. I'm also pretty sure that I've never lost to a 2gate proxy... ever.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:35 pm UTC

Is hatch before pool really even economically more beneficial? You're delaying two queens by at least 300 minerals, rather than 1 hatch by at least 200 minerals. Queens have a higher larva rate, and you're delaying two of them.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:26 pm UTC

psion wrote:
TheBanana wrote:Also interested about how warp game timing will affect PvZ since any warp gate rushes will be quite a bit later but Z's won't be able to 15 hatch cause of easy early zealot / 2 gate pressure.

I tested it on the PTR. On larger maps like Taldarim it's not actually possible for protoss to do a deadly 2gate build because of the probe travel time, not even considering that it's a 4 player map. So 15 hatch is still possible. On smaller maps as long as you scout fast enough it's possible to cancel the hatch and get a pool and still hold off the proxy, though you do need to be relatively fast about it.



I'm not even talking about proxy cause that's a whole different scenario, just two gateways at a normal time in the toss base. On the huge maps (taldarim and that other one) this won't make too much of a difference but even on maps the size of metalopolis and assuming farthest spawn positions, having two or three quick zealots storming the zerg when the zerg has gone hatch first can and will be quite devastating. The timing is such that roaches and a completed spine crawler are almost impossible even if it's scouted. I mean this is an effective strategy for hatch first zerg with the timings that exist now, it'll be even more effective post patch.


psion wrote:That said, I don't even remember the last time I went hatch before pool in PvZ because of cannons. I'm also pretty sure that I've never lost to a 2gate proxy... ever.


I hatch first maybe 75% of the time on the larger maps against toss, even if they drop cannons (which is rare unless they're fast expanding and have the forge ready) I can't remember the last time toss actually tried to cannon me on one of the big, big maps.


WarDaft wrote:Is hatch before pool really even economically more beneficial? You're delaying two queens by at least 300 minerals, rather than 1 hatch by at least 200 minerals. Queens have a higher larva rate, and you're delaying two of them.


Yes, even if only for the better drone spread on your minerals. Hatch first also makes it easier to hold off 4-gate and 3-gate pressure (spine crawlers down earlier) aaaaand starport play cause you'll have more queens in that scenario, generally at least 3. Course it's not economical if you can't hold it or if you lose all your drones.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:38 pm UTC

Yea, Zerg don't hatch before pool on me anymore since I saw that pros were dropping forges and cannoning the expansion.

It works great.

I still hate zerg on big maps though. I outplayed the shit out of a zerg the other day and still lost. He was a creep spreading machine and my 9 warp gates couldn't keep up with the huge amount of roaches he was producing -- he had total map control and I couldn't stop him from expanding further without losing an expansion of my own.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:25 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:I outplayed the shit out of a zerg the other day

Something about that doesn't make the most sense...
He was a creep spreading machine...
couldn't keep up with the huge amount of roaches he was producing...
he had total map control


Not trying to say you played badly, but if his macro was that much better than yours, something tells me you didn't completely outplay him. If you scout him making a lot of roaches, go for void rays or immortals rather than spamming 9 gateways.

Were you at least ahead on upgrades trying to beat roaches with only gateway units? If not I don't see how you can call it outplayed...

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:02 am UTC

TheBanana wrote:I'm not even talking about proxy cause that's a whole different scenario, just two gateways at a normal time in the toss base.

I never felt two gateway builds were difficult to defend or a tight timing, so I don't think the 5 seconds is going to make a difference. I wouldn't say it'd be devastating so much as annoying.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:24 am UTC

Here's a hilarious piece of cheese in that has a small chance of working in TvZ on cross positions on shakuras plateau. Go gas-rax into factory and proxy a starport on the ridge next to their base (build it in the empty main opposite of your position or whatever, and then just fly it down). Hide a fusion core somewhere. Harass with marines and hellions and ... wait for iiiittt. Bam. Ridiculosly early battlecruiser in the middle of their mineral line. If they responded to your harass by getting roaches, they're in such deep guano. And even if they have mutas, battlecruisers can take a pretty serious pounding from those guys.

Kinda works on the "hard to defend" second natural (without the rocks) on Tal Darim Altar as well, except you don't get as direct access to their harvesting operation. I suppose you could hit their natural or something.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:10 am UTC

Why bother cheesing it? An early Battlecruiser in your main army is even harder to destroy. With a weapons upgrade, it can take out a pack of 5 or maybe 6 hydras by itself, but why force it too? If BCs are a component of your main forces, you can even use some Yomato blasts to instigib expansions.


Speaking of cheese, I just had a despicable idea for Protoss cheese against Zerg. It's a long term cheese though. Your army is Void Rays. Entirely. Nothing Zerg has in the air can beat Void Rays. You never actually want to fight the Zerg ground army, just make it very clear to them that yes all you have is VRs, and yes if they move out you will liquefy their base with them. You will have an excess of minerals, use these to either expand with wild abandon (if you successfully coerce the Zerg to stay close to home) or spend them all on gateways. Your goal is a long seemingly stalemate match where you harass with VRs and keep the Zerg close to home, while you build up a ridiculous excess of resources and warp gates, preferably several armies worth. If anything ever goes wrong and you lose your VRs, you have excess resources and warpgates to get a new army very fast. If they do move out, then because you spent so many of your minerals on buildings, it will quite simply take them longer to destroy your base than you theirs. Zerg can't really hide buildings from a fleet, so that means you win.

I say it is cheese not because it is fast, all in, or a guaranteed win against someone not expecting it, but because it should require much greater effort on the Zerg's part to break the stalemate and win than on your part to ride it to the end of the game at which point you ideally have built up an absurd infrastructure advantage.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:16 am UTC

Fungal.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:39 am UTC

It'd be hard to grab them if the Protoss is careful. They don't need to do more than fly in, get 1-2 seconds of firing time on some building, and fly out. It's obviously not unbeatable, just a cruel way for the Protoss to play.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby BlackSails » Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:18 am UTC

The zerg player can also just raze your base with lings while defending with hydras.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:38 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:The zerg player can also just raze your base with lings while defending with hydras.

Just Nydus in if they're hovering outside your base with a tonne of voids and nothing else.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Swivelguy » Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:56 am UTC

I actually really like the idea of marine+marauder+early BC against zerg, might have to try that out.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Mo0man » Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:24 am UTC

Regarding mass voidrays against Zerg
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:28 am UTC

WarDaft wrote:I say it is cheese not because it is fast, all in, or a guaranteed win against someone not expecting it, but because it should require much greater effort on the Zerg's part to break the stalemate and win than on your part to ride it to the end of the game at which point you ideally have built up an absurd infrastructure advantage.


Mass mutas crush uncharged void rays, cost for cost, in large amounts.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Jesse » Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:29 pm UTC

Played three 4v4's today, and much hilarity ensued. All I've been doing in the games is building nothing but marines and medivacs, getting a tonne of upgrades as fast as possible and then just rolling out onto the map with whoever else is playing. First game we won easy, second game we lost, but the map we were on was a weird one I hadn't seen before, very narrow, and only two easy expansions for four players. I lost my medivacs too early which made getting round the map a pain.

The third game was hilarious fun though. Had some competent people with me, and after a rocky start we got down to business. Actually lost my base halfway through the game and had no minerals left to build more, so just had twenty or so fully upgraded marines with yellow health. Teamed up with some void rays and wiped out two players from the game no problem. Then it was just a case of letting the other 'toss take out a PF and five minutes of searching the map for floated CC's since the last opponent was refusing to gg despite being in a 1vs 4 with nothing but a CC left.

I'm actually enjoying these mroe than 1v1's. A lot less serious, and some fun banter.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:23 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:
WarDaft wrote:I say it is cheese not because it is fast, all in, or a guaranteed win against someone not expecting it, but because it should require much greater effort on the Zerg's part to break the stalemate and win than on your part to ride it to the end of the game at which point you ideally have built up an absurd infrastructure advantage.


Mass mutas crush uncharged void rays, cost for cost, in large amounts.


The problem with these strategies is always that it's hard to gauge the value of the army you're facing, and so people tend to put too little effort into countering them. 30 void rays kills 40 marines and you go "Oh me yarm! I had infinity marines and they did nothing! Protoss is OP!"
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:59 pm UTC

psion wrote:
TheBanana wrote:I'm not even talking about proxy cause that's a whole different scenario, just two gateways at a normal time in the toss base.

I never felt two gateway builds were difficult to defend or a tight timing, so I don't think the 5 seconds is going to make a difference. I wouldn't say it'd be devastating so much as annoying.


I dunno. If zerg goes 15 hatch on a medium sized map (let's say metalopolis far position) then toss with build times as it is, toss is guaranteed to have a zealot or two in your base right as/after the hatch finishes. Before a spine crawler is up and way before a roach warren is finished. The new timings just make it that much harder to hold off which is why I'm saying hatch first (which is already rare against toss) is going to be all but non-existent now.




You, sir, name? wrote:
Menacing Spike wrote:
WarDaft wrote:I say it is cheese not because it is fast, all in, or a guaranteed win against someone not expecting it, but because it should require much greater effort on the Zerg's part to break the stalemate and win than on your part to ride it to the end of the game at which point you ideally have built up an absurd infrastructure advantage.


Mass mutas crush uncharged void rays, cost for cost, in large amounts.


The problem with these strategies is always that it's hard to gauge the value of the army you're facing, and so people tend to put too little effort into countering them. 30 void rays kills 40 marines and you go "Gee Willikers! I had infinity marines and they did nothing! Protoss is OP!"


As a player though, if you let the toss mass up 30 void rays then you're obviously doing something wrong. Unless you're just hard countering (hydra/fungal or mass muta) and then you're doing everything right. Just gotta scout.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:17 pm UTC

TheBanana wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:
Menacing Spike wrote:
WarDaft wrote:I say it is cheese not because it is fast, all in, or a guaranteed win against someone not expecting it, but because it should require much greater effort on the Zerg's part to break the stalemate and win than on your part to ride it to the end of the game at which point you ideally have built up an absurd infrastructure advantage.


Mass mutas crush uncharged void rays, cost for cost, in large amounts.


The problem with these strategies is always that it's hard to gauge the value of the army you're facing, and so people tend to put too little effort into countering them. 30 void rays kills 40 marines and you go "Gee Willikers! I had infinity marines and they did nothing! Protoss is OP!"


As a player though, if you let the toss mass up 30 void rays then you're obviously doing something wrong. Unless you're just hard countering (hydra/fungal or mass muta) and then you're doing everything right. Just gotta scout.


Mass VR should never work in PvT, as long as the terran player is sensible and goes marine-thor. The thors go down quick, but VRs suffer from similar clumping issues that mutas do, and thus take ridiculous amounts of damage from even a single thor volley. And massing VRs requires extensive turtling, making most of the map up for grabs. And with that sort of income, you can simply carpet everything with +1 range missile turrets.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Xeio » Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:55 pm UTC

I'd go marine ghost far before thors against void rays (EMP vs air is magnitudes more awesome because of grouping)... thors do splash, but they only do bonus vs light and take bonus damage from void rays...

Probably with some vikings thrown in, since I hate positioning ground units vs air.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby BlackSails » Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:20 pm UTC

Void rays vs mutas is very upgrade dependant. Each armor or shield upgrade is triply effective against mutas, and conversely, every zerg air attack upgrade is triply effective.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:25 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:Void rays vs mutas is very upgrade dependant. Each armor or shield upgrade is triply effective against mutas, and conversely, every zerg air attack upgrade is triply effective.


True that, that's why I always upgrade muta attack right away so I can go kill those wee little enemy workers that much faster.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:11 pm UTC

Mass mutas crush uncharged void rays, cost for cost, in large amounts.
At equal upgrades, equal gas of VRs and Mutas will result in half the VRs dieing to kill all the Mutas.

Also, sorry to have to point this out, but the upgrades are diminished on the bounce the same way the base damage is - each upgrade for Mutas is 1 + 1/3 + 1/9 - while armor upgrades on the targets apply fully to each bounce. +3 attack Mutas vs +3 armor targets, will result in the Mutas doing 9 + 1 + 0 damage, not 9 + 3 + 1.

Against Terran, making nothing but VRs is obviously quite silly.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:17 pm UTC

They should nerf mutas and bring back scourge, and all would be good.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby broken_escalator » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:21 pm UTC

New upgrade that give banelings wings, or possibly reaper-jetpacks?

Jetpack banelings would be very fun.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:26 pm UTC

Dark Swarm would really hit the spot a lot of the time...
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:47 pm UTC

WarDaft wrote:
Mass mutas crush uncharged void rays, cost for cost, in large amounts.
At equal upgrades, equal gas of VRs and Mutas will result in half the VRs dieing to kill all the Mutas.


Err, try it out? Rays go splat.

Granted, that was without upgrades on the VRs and +1 mutas.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:54 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:Err, try it out? Rays go splat.

Granted, that was without upgrades on the VRs and +1 mutas.



I did, several times, right before posting. The rays won with +1 on the Mutas too. The VRs won with 50% survival at equal upgrades.

Even if we look at it mathematically, 2 VRs have 20 DPS out and 500 combined health, 3 Mutas have 23.6 DPS out and only 360 combined health. And as I mentioned, upgrades substantially favour the VRs.


What conditions were you performing it under?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:59 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:
WarDaft wrote:
Mass mutas crush uncharged void rays, cost for cost, in large amounts.
At equal upgrades, equal gas of VRs and Mutas will result in half the VRs dieing to kill all the Mutas.


Err, try it out? Rays go splat.

Granted, that was without upgrades on the VRs and +1 mutas.


Also, equal gas? Maybe but isn't a VR 250/100 and a muta 100/100 (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm at work and can't check :P )? Resource advantage goes to the zerg which means either lots of lings or lots of drones / bases which equals even more mutas in any encounter.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:07 pm UTC

WarDaft wrote:What conditions were you performing it under?


4v4 game, watching zerg ally and protoss enemy, they seemed to have the same amount of bases.
Maybe it's the mineral thing.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:16 pm UTC

TheBanana wrote:Also, equal gas? Isn't a VR 250/100 and a muta 100/100 (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm at work and can't check :P )? Resource advantage goes to the zerg which means either lots of lings or lots of drones / bases which equals even more mutas in any encounter.

VRs are 250/150.

But you really don't want too many Mutas against a Protoss who's intent on going air... 'cause Phoenixes are really really good at killing Mutas.

Do also remember that I called this cheese.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:53 pm UTC

WarDaft wrote:But you really don't want too many Mutas against a Protoss who's intent on going air... 'cause Phoenixes are really really good at killing Mutas.


On this we heartily agree :D.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:20 pm UTC

And as a matter of fact, if both armies are of equal supply, VRs will also beat Hydras quite soundly. A pack of 6+ Infestors remains unassailable to any number of VRs, but that's an expensive vanguard to have at each of your expansions.

That's kind-of why I said the Protoss wants a long game with one or even no late game army clashes. It's a psychological attack as much as an actual strategy, and the actual strategy part of it is quite cheesy.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:25 pm UTC

WarDaft wrote:And as a matter of fact, if both armies are of equal supply, VRs will also beat Hydras quite soundly. A pack of 6+ Infestors remains unassailable to any number of VRs, but that's an expensive vanguard to have at each of your expansions.


You only need 6 and a nydus network.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:33 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:
WarDaft wrote:And as a matter of fact, if both armies are of equal supply, VRs will also beat Hydras quite soundly. A pack of 6+ Infestors remains unassailable to any number of VRs, but that's an expensive vanguard to have at each of your expansions.


You only need 6 and a nydus network.


Nydus popout time is not instant; infestors could get gibbed before casting anything.
Wait, can you get burrowed infestors into a Nydus?

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WarDaft
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:38 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:You only need 6 and a nydus network.

And, uh, lightning fast reflexes.

Nydus popout time is not instant; infestors could get gibbed before casting anything.
Wait, can you get burrowed infestors into a Nydus?
Researching...

No.

Nor would you want to, a single observer would then guarantee that you never got any Fungals off.
All Shadow priest spells that deal Fire damage now appear green.
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broken_escalator
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby broken_escalator » Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:40 pm UTC

If I've learned anything playing against zerg, the counter to everything is more roaches.


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