Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Fri May 06, 2011 8:06 am UTC

Kag wrote:
Menacing Spike wrote:Because luck is a fun and interesting gameplay mechanism, especially in an e-sport.


Okay, no.

Guessing games are an important part of any game where you don't have perfect information, which I think includes any simultaneous game, especially those with unclear payoffs. Often, because of the limits on your information, the best strategy is mixed for both players. Now, on average, this should result in a draw. Everyone plays the optimal strategy and whoever wins is basically random.

We'd expect this even if there was no fog of war, but that isn't what happens, because people are really awful at executing mixed strategies. When you think you're picking randomly, you're falling back on tendencies you don't even know you have, and letting personality and feelings influence your choice. True experts can use this, and read their opponents so they can make a better guess, which is why the same guy can place in 3 Rock-Paper-Scissors tournaments in a row.

If you don't have to guess, it isn't a strategy game, it's a math problem.


You can guess a bit from elements, such as whatever is at his wall, did he scan, etc. Yet the terran can have {i]far more[/i] information than you; you can't really hide buildings until lair tech (hatch/queen trick is too slow, however I do like hiding a spire in a corner later on) while he can prevent you almost completely from scouting his base.
Information is limited to the edges of his base, the content of his wall, the army at his wall, and the mineral line. The terran, however, can know everything about you.

Mixed strategies? Right, invest in lair, every tech building, expand, and make both spore and spine crawlers, and keep larva just in case on spare hatches. Oh wait, he can now easily crush you with his much larger army.

I really don't see how equal skill can bring a draw. The game is already "luckyish" in some regards (marine vs marine, they spot each other, who fired first?). No need to worsen the problem.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kag » Fri May 06, 2011 8:15 am UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:Mixed strategies? Right, invest in lair, every tech building, expand, and make both spore and spine crawlers, and keep larva just in case on spare hatches. Oh wait, he can now easily crush you with his much larger army.


Or you could know what a mixed strategy is before you say something stupid.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Fri May 06, 2011 8:16 am UTC

Kag wrote:
Menacing Spike wrote:Mixed strategies? Right, invest in lair, every tech building, expand, and make both spore and spine crawlers, and keep larva just in case on spare hatches. Oh wait, he can now easily crush you with his much larger army.


Or you could know what a mixed strategy is before you say something stupid.


Then it's back to RPS, which sucks.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kag » Fri May 06, 2011 8:21 am UTC

Except no, because the first thing I said.

To elaborate: competitive fighting games consist almost entirely of situations where you have to guess, and yet it clearly isn't just a coin toss. Good players are better at guessing.
Last edited by Kag on Fri May 06, 2011 8:22 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Fri May 06, 2011 8:21 am UTC

Kag wrote:Except no, because the first thing I said.


I already answered that point; you chose to ignore my answer.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kag » Fri May 06, 2011 8:27 am UTC

He still can't change course midstream. If you guess right, you're at an advantage.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Coin » Fri May 06, 2011 8:29 am UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:You can guess a bit from elements, such as whatever is at his wall, did he scan, etc. Yet the terran can have {i]far more[/i] information than you; you can't really hide buildings until lair tech (hatch/queen trick is too slow, however I do like hiding a spire in a corner later on) while he can prevent you almost completely from scouting his base.
Information is limited to the edges of his base, the content of his wall, the army at his wall, and the mineral line. The terran, however, can know everything about you.

Mixed strategies? Right, invest in lair, every tech building, expand, and make both spore and spine crawlers, and keep larva just in case on spare hatches. Oh wait, he can now easily crush you with his much larger army.

I really don't see how equal skill can bring a draw. The game is already "luckyish" in some regards (marine vs marine, they spot each other, who fired first?). No need to worsen the problem.

Isn't it a trade off though? As a zerg you have the ability to keep an eye on the rest of the map at a relatively low cost making a sneak attack difficult.
Let's look at the cost of scouting as well. If I remember correctly a scan costs the equivalent of 270 minerals if it had been used as a mule instead. That's almost 3 overlords. Call it 2 overlords and the rest to of-set larvae. With 2 overlords scouting at the same time from different directions I do believe you'll get a good look of your opponents base at the critical stage when you need to scout for tech/strat.If you use 3 overlords you should be guaranteed to see everything, but that'd be overkill.

In the later stages of the game this wouldn't be possible, but then you have the chance of getting changelings and mutas, so it's a different game then.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Fri May 06, 2011 8:31 am UTC

Coin wrote:With 2 overlords scouting at the same time from different directions I do believe you'll get a good look of your opponents base at the critical stage when you need to scout for tech/strat.


Ok, that's a fair point.

...

I can't answer that :(.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Fri May 06, 2011 3:11 pm UTC

Idra always seems to act like the world is against him. In that SOTG podcast he complained about ZvP AND ZvT even though ZvT is probably the most balanced and most interesting match up right now because even though the terrans can still execute a lot of cheese, the big maps definitely favor the zerg. Idra complains about about several fundamental flaws of the zerg including a lack of scouting and the inability to put on early pressure, yet he completely ignores fundamental strengths of the zerg (being able to build 15+ workers at a time, creep vision, easy adaptability etc etc etc.) while making his argument. That's why he comes off as someone who is just whining, IMO.

*Note* I do find it a little ridiculous, however, when in PvZ, w/ two maxxed armies the zerg loses 60-70 supply and the toss maybe 20-30 supply...

Course PvTs are often the same way but terrans don't seem to whine about it so much.


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Thanks though, awesome games.


Cheers, double cannon rushes frustrate me and I don't know how to stop them as toss. Also, that game marked 4 games in a row where our opponents cheesed us AND my mouse was messing up.

Ok, ok. Enough excuses from me :P

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Fri May 06, 2011 3:16 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:
Coin wrote:With 2 overlords scouting at the same time from different directions I do believe you'll get a good look of your opponents base at the critical stage when you need to scout for tech/strat.


Ok, that's a fair point.

...

I can't answer that :(.


Losing two overlords in the early game is a much bigger loss to a zerg than a scan is to a terran. Plus what are people scouting for? Air builds, 4-gates, 3 rax timing etc. All builds that require either more queens or static defense. Which you need mucho minerals for.


P.S.
Did anyone see the NesTea vs. Anypro (I think) games?

Spoiler:
NesTea is freaking brilliant. Early spine crawler / zergling push on a toss fast expand. LOVE IT!
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby broken_escalator » Fri May 06, 2011 3:17 pm UTC

TheBanana wrote:Cheers, double cannon rushes frustrate me and I don't know how to stop them as toss. Also, that game marked 4 games in a row where our opponents cheesed us AND my mouse was messing up.

For canon rushes you can just make reavers to... oh wait never mind. :cry:

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Fri May 06, 2011 3:56 pm UTC

broken_escalator wrote:For canon rushes you can just make reavers to... oh wait never mind. :cry:


Next time I get cannon rushed when I'm toss, I'm just going to chrono out two zealots, grab all my probes and go kill their base. It's been decided.

Also, I miss reavers :(
Sure the AI on their missile sucked but they were so awesome
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby EdgarJPublius » Fri May 06, 2011 4:22 pm UTC

TheBanana wrote:
Menacing Spike wrote:
Coin wrote:With 2 overlords scouting at the same time from different directions I do believe you'll get a good look of your opponents base at the critical stage when you need to scout for tech/strat.


Ok, that's a fair point.

...

I can't answer that :(.


Losing two overlords in the early game is a much bigger loss to a zerg than a scan is to a terran.


Scouting overlords aren't really a loss unless you get careless with them and leave them floating right over the enemy base until they can get a turret up or mass a few 'rines to take it out.
In the early game when scouting builds is most critical, you can almost always get in at least one pass before the enemy has sufficient AA to take out an overlord, and then you can still move it around the periphery or into a position to watch the approaches.

In lower level games, that overlord could even spook your enemy into wasting resources on turrets to fend 'em off.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Mo0man » Fri May 06, 2011 4:30 pm UTC

Instead of scanning, a terran can send an SCV, build a barracks, and float it over. It's got 10x the hit points, 2 armor, and moves faster. Not to mention, at that point the zerg is likely to have much less in terms of anti air, so you can basically guarantee you see the zerg's entire base. But none of them do it. Do you know why? Cause scan is better, for whatever reason.

Oh, and one marine can definitely take down an unupgraded overlord before it can really see anything, and if you use two you don't even have to micro
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Fri May 06, 2011 5:07 pm UTC

Yup. A single sentry for that matter can take out an OL before it can see anything significant. And on the bigger maps. It's usually impossible to get an OL to the right base in time to scout an early timing push. Or not impossible I guess but the odds are definitely against you.

Then again, toss has early scouting problems too. But oh wait, they have force fields. =P

And I can't imagine anyone bad enough to be so spooked by an OL into getting a turret lol.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby EdgarJPublius » Fri May 06, 2011 5:19 pm UTC

Mo0man wrote:Oh, and one marine can definitely take down an unupgraded overlord before it can really see anything, and if you use two you don't even have to micro


1 'rine takes about ~30 secs to take down an overlord, plenty of time to take a look around and even move into a safer position with a bit of micro. Even two 'rines won't take you down quickly enough if you have a bit of sense.

If you come in directly over the ramp then you deserve what you get anyway, plant a waypoint and come in from the side of the base so they have to move 'rines off the ramp if they want to take you down quickly.

If you're really paranoid that they've loaded their base with marines or something, just sneak in the back and take a look at their mineral line, that can tell you if they've gone for early gas and can give away a mech or air build with virtually no risk.
Last edited by EdgarJPublius on Fri May 06, 2011 5:30 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Fri May 06, 2011 5:21 pm UTC

But that 30 seconds of vision into your opponents base will probably cost you a full supply bock 5 minutes into the game. That's...y'know...significant.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby EdgarJPublius » Fri May 06, 2011 5:32 pm UTC

not if you use that thirty seconds to move to a safer location.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Fri May 06, 2011 5:39 pm UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:But that 30 seconds of vision into your opponents base will probably cost you a full supply bock 5 minutes into the game. That's...y'know...significant.


Or you spare one larva to make sure you have you get an additional overlord before you scout with one. Comsat costs 270 minerals or 10 supply. No reason to expect OV scouting should to be free.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Fri May 06, 2011 6:05 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:
Mo0man wrote:Oh, and one marine can definitely take down an unupgraded overlord before it can really see anything, and if you use two you don't even have to micro


1 'rine takes about ~30 secs to take down an overlord, plenty of time to take a look around and even move into a safer position with a bit of micro. Even two 'rines won't take you down quickly enough if you have a bit of sense.

If you come in directly over the ramp then you deserve what you get anyway, plant a waypoint and come in from the side of the base so they have to move 'rines off the ramp if they want to take you down quickly.

If you're really paranoid that they've loaded their base with marines or something, just sneak in the back and take a look at their mineral line, that can tell you if they've gone for early gas and can give away a mech or air build with virtually no risk.


Right. Ok, I play random so I've been on both sides of this plenty of times. As terran, I now always have one marine patrolling for overlords so I spot em more or less right away. I never send more than three or four marines to take out an OL (as to not give anything away) and I always have at least that many when an OL scouts because it's pointless to scout before that point in the game anyway. Assuming the map is Xelnaga Caverns (relatively small base size) With 2-3 marines killing an OL, it generally sees less than 1/5th of my base and it never survives. Sure I guess two OL's in conjunction may be able to see a bit more than half my base in those circumstances but then I'd just attack and the zerg would be at worst supply blocked and at best have 200 minerals less for spine crawlers that wouldn't finish in time anyway.

Also, you cannot micro an overlord (move it to a safer position) as they are just too damn slow. Not and expect to actually scout anything anyway.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Mo0man » Fri May 06, 2011 9:10 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:not if you use that thirty seconds to move to a safer location.
In that case, you might as well not scout at all
You, sir, name? wrote:Or you spare one larva to make sure you have you get an additional overlord before you scout with one. Comsat costs 270 minerals or 10 supply. No reason to expect OV scouting should to be free.
Nobody is saying OV scouting should be free, we're saying it's both costly and ineffective. And again, you say comsat like it's the only way to scout, when Terran has other choices. Not to mention, there aren't very many tech paths for zerg to go before lair without being forced to all-in
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Sat May 07, 2011 6:42 am UTC

Scouting with a Rax is still quite expensive. At least as much as using 2 OVs - a 60 second build time is ~40 minerals not mined by the SCV, then there's the travel time to and from wherever you build it. Scouting has to be harder for Zerg, because they can significantly out-econ the other races early on if they know that there's minimal pressure incoming. With perfect information on your opponents strategy, Zerg can meet any timing push and have a substantially better economy.

What should be under debate is the variety of clever Zerg attacks that are viable in the early game. With two production buildings, Terran has a choice of 6 offensive units.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Sat May 07, 2011 9:44 am UTC

WarDaft wrote:With perfect information on your opponents strategy, Zerg can meet any timing push and have a substantially better economy.

That's true of any race.
Zerg has been balanced around the ability to saturate quickly. When you don't use the advantage, you die. If you use it too much, you also die. You can't know where the middle ground is without being able to scout.
Zerg can't have strong, early game attacking units because inject is too powerful. Zerg can't have a weaker inject in a world of chrono boost and mules.

It's a nested problem that I think annoys players when they lose to it more than it's imbalanced.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Sat May 07, 2011 10:49 am UTC

It takes a longer time for early Terran/Protoss expansions to pay for themselves. They also need more production buildings to make up for skimping on the military earlier or they won't be able to actually hold off the timing attack. Yes, they can still do it, but they can't do it to the same extent.


We could remove inject and make hatcheries produce 6 larva per minute. This is nearly the same larva per minute per mineral as a hatch+queen combo is currently (it's 7.7% less). This is actually more resilient against rushes than with Inject, since the first inject takes several minutes to pop. However, there is no burst of units like inject produces, so a wider range of units could be available sooner.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Sat May 07, 2011 11:04 am UTC

Inject allows you to "store" larva, which can be very useful late-game.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Sat May 07, 2011 11:30 am UTC

WarDaft wrote:It takes a longer time for early Terran/Protoss expansions to pay for themselves. They also need more production buildings to make up for skimping on the military earlier or they won't be able to actually hold off the timing attack. Yes, they can still do it, but they can't do it to the same extent.


We could remove inject and make hatcheries produce 6 larva per minute. This is nearly the same larva per minute per mineral as a hatch+queen combo is currently (it's 7.7% less). This is actually more resilient against rushes than with Inject, since the first inject takes several minutes to pop. However, there is no burst of units like inject produces, so a wider range of units could be available sooner.


Blizzard added a macro mechanic to each race (mule, chrono, inject) to make it deliberately harder to play, because the rest of the game's mechanics were much less APM intensive than SC1. So by making hatcheries 6 larvae you're missing the point of why it exists. It's not meant to be better.

The reason why inject gives you a burst of units is so your production capacity isn't maxed at the start. Terran and Protoss have to wait to get up to N barracks or gateways; Zerg has to wait for the queen for the same reason. The way it would work if you removed inject would be to get 2-3 hatches per base like SC1. Having a wider range of units earlier also doesn't fit with the game: Blizzard has chosen to allow a long and narrow tech path for SC2. Every Terran has to make 1 or 2marines at the start; every Zerg should correspondingly not be able to get away with skipping making 2-4 zerglings early.

I'm not saying I agree with Blizzard's design decisions, but scaling production has to be fair and the game works as an esport because people with more practice at macroing are better (injects are hard, only the best get it right). Same reason there isn't 'repeat forever' buttons on production buildings even though that would help Bronze to Gold players a lot.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Sat May 07, 2011 12:04 pm UTC

Blizzard added a macro mechanic to each race (mule, chrono, inject) to make it deliberately harder to play, because the rest of the game's mechanics were much less APM intensive than SC1. So by making hatcheries 6 larvae you're missing the point of why it exists. It's not meant to be better.
Hmm, I edited my post mid way through and seem to have removed the bit about replacing inject with something else. I was aware of that point, and meant to deal with it.
Every Terran has to make 1 or 2marines at the start; every Zerg should correspondingly not be able to get away with skipping making 2-4 zerglings early.
But a Terran can make a Barracks followed by a Factory, with the Barracks making a tech lab simultaneously, and then have the option to build 5 different kinds of units. For a Zerg player to get access to 5 different types of combat units, they need 5 buildings and a Lair upgrade. Granted, once they are at that point, their production is more flexible, it does leave them with less flexibility early on.

This doesn't necessarily make them weaker at that point in time, just less interesting.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Sat May 07, 2011 12:18 pm UTC

WarDaft wrote: 5 different types of combat units


Technically 6; they can bring SCVs for repairs.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Sat May 07, 2011 3:39 pm UTC

I know not all players feel this way, but getting a win over Master League players feels awesome.

Me and Psion terrorized Diamond league last night, including an epic win over a 2v2 master league team.

Was watching a replay and one of the few losses was on a damn lucky timing. I snuck like 10 Stalkers into a zerg base, and BAM he has all his OL"s sitting there undefend. I decimate them all.. and *POP* what seemed like a billion mutas spawn, and they insta run from my stalkers.
Next thing I know those Mutas wipe out 3 mineral lines worth of workers... and I never recover economically.
( I was also way to cocky after doing like 1K minerals worth of OL' damage, and let the stalkers suicide in the base instead of blinking them out and returning to our main force)
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun May 08, 2011 1:35 pm UTC

Couple of weird-ass games today.

First was TvT. I 2 rax expand, and the other guy goes for some weird reaper harass that I scouted and ended up not being spectacularly effective. I scan and see a bunch of tanks and marauders, so I do a drop, destroying two starports and his banshee. Then I keep being obnoxious with marine runbys killing spotter depots and fucking up his third, and banshees picking off tanks. His aggression on the other hand died with the reaper harass. Meanwhile, I macro really badly so he's technically ahead most of the game, but the constant aggression was apparently so demoralizing that he just gave up when I finally attacked.

Next was TvR that turned out to be TvZ. Again I 2 rax expand, and the other guy just sucks. He fast expands, but doesn't really do anything. I think he built like 24 drones the entire game. He tried to sneak a third, but I found it with a hellion as he was building it so he cancelled it (why?!) and left the drone to die in a fire. Then he just sits around building roaches and banelings and I just crush him with an 150 supply army against his 68 supply army.

Next was a TvP. I completely dominate this game and have total map control up to the point where I have 5 bases and 4 extra OC, and he's on two mined out bases with a fairly maxed army. I get impatient and kill his natural at the cost of most of my army, but I've been too thick headed to get more production capacity with my 10000 mineral trust fund and thus end up losing the game. Rage!
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Sun May 08, 2011 3:10 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:Couple of weird-ass games today.


Why are you in silver league if your crushing everyone?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Sun May 08, 2011 3:13 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:Couple of weird-ass games today.


Why are you in silver league if your crushing everyone?


Maybe his MMR matches him against bronze?

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun May 08, 2011 3:17 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:Couple of weird-ass games today.


Why are you in silver league if your crushing everyone?


Partially because I have so little time to play. So the two-three warm up games where I make a lot of stupid mistakes because I haven't played for a week account for a relatively high portion of my total games played. But then there's zerg. I easily have a 70% win rate in TvT, and a 60%+ against protoss, but a 20% win rate against zerg. I'm starting to get the hang of TvZ, but I'm still quite dismal.

In general, my play style is shifting from early expanding into quickly amassing a huge army and steamrolling the enemy to a more balanced play that also incorporates map control and denying expansions. This has done a lot for my WLR as of late. I more or less constantly have a hellion scouting potential expansion locations so that I can nip them in the bud.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun May 08, 2011 7:17 pm UTC

On a related matter, I just won a macro TvZ game! I'm so happy. Almost a blizzard hour worth of trading armies and destroying expansions, and I manage to win.

Though I did forget to upgrade beyond 1/1, because I kept forgetting I had an armory and couldn't find my engy bay and couldn't find an SCV to build any of those (even though I had them in my main) and oh crap an attack screw that stuff, action now!
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kain » Sun May 08, 2011 10:27 pm UTC

You, sir, what hotkeys do you use for your production facilities? When I play terran, I generally have the eng bay(s) and armory(s) on the hotkey after my barracks, with the starport and factory on the hotkey after that (that way when I cycle through a production I can see whether I have upgrades to get)
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun May 08, 2011 10:30 pm UTC

I re-hotkey 8 and 9 to q and w, and use q for CCs and w for rax, factories and starports*. I'm terrible at remembering to hotkey engy bays and armories, but when I do, I generally put them at 5 or 6.

* It's quite convenient. Try presssing qs and wa and compare with how it feels to press 4a 5s. Not to mention that you free up a lot of hotkeys for specialists.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Sun May 08, 2011 11:06 pm UTC

I have all my orbitals hotkeyed on 4, rax on 5, facts on 6 and starports on 7.

I am trying to get used to having F1 as the hotkey for the map location where I put my eng. bays/armorys.

I find really late game macro relatively hard at the moment. Once you start getting to 4 bases, I just have a lot of trouble spending money. I lost a couple of TvTs last night (after tearing through the ladder for a week or so with 3 losses from almost 20 games I believe, so I'm actually getting placed against plats again) where I felt like I was at least not behind, but struggled with my macro getting into the late game and eventually got worn down due to losing map control.

I'm really enjoying going for heavy mech play at the moment, and have discovered it's usually fairly safe to go 1 rax expand in TvT at this level. I get a scouting reaper, then go into double factory (cause mass mech is actually so much fun in TvT) and soon an eng. bay in case i need turrets shortly after. And by at the moment, I mean I played 4 TvTs like that yesterday (anyone watch Goody vs. Select in the NASL yesterday? Because I just decided to go early 2 base 3 factory play after watching the first two games of that match It does just feel incredibly strong in that matchup... I'm just constantly scared that my opponent may be trying to get BCs out)

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun May 08, 2011 11:38 pm UTC

|Erasmus| wrote:I'm really enjoying going for heavy mech play at the moment, and have discovered it's usually fairly safe to go 1 rax expand in TvT at this level. I get a scouting reaper, then go into double factory (cause mass mech is actually so much fun in TvT) and soon an eng. bay in case i need turrets shortly after. And by at the moment, I mean I played 4 TvTs like that yesterday (anyone watch Goody vs. Select in the NASL yesterday? Because I just decided to go early 2 base 3 factory play after watching the first two games of that match It does just feel incredibly strong in that matchup... I'm just constantly scared that my opponent may be trying to get BCs out)


I used to 1 rax FE against terran, but got really paranoid about single base bio aggression as it just destroyed me. Which is why I 2 rax FE with slightly delayed gas nowadays. That way I can have three bunkers full of marines to defend my expo, which feels a lot safer. Tanks are slightly more difficult to deal with, but it's quite doable.

Unrelatedly, I'm very pleased with how my APM has increased. A month ago, it was in the high 40s. Two weeks ago, it was mid 60s. Last week it was low 70s. Now I'm low to mid 80s (partially due to my new found love for the insane click fest that is marine stutter step micro.)
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Mon May 09, 2011 12:13 am UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:
|Erasmus| wrote:I'm really enjoying going for heavy mech play at the moment, and have discovered it's usually fairly safe to go 1 rax expand in TvT at this level. I get a scouting reaper, then go into double factory (cause mass mech is actually so much fun in TvT) and soon an eng. bay in case i need turrets shortly after. And by at the moment, I mean I played 4 TvTs like that yesterday (anyone watch Goody vs. Select in the NASL yesterday? Because I just decided to go early 2 base 3 factory play after watching the first two games of that match It does just feel incredibly strong in that matchup... I'm just constantly scared that my opponent may be trying to get BCs out)


I used to 1 rax FE against terran, but got really paranoid about single base bio aggression as it just destroyed me. Which is why I 2 rax FE with slightly delayed gas nowadays. That way I can have three bunkers full of marines to defend my expo, which feels a lot safer. Tanks are slightly more difficult to deal with, but it's quite doable.

Against a 4 rax bio aggression before he backed off and expanded, I had one full bunker and 1 hellion when he got to my ramp, with 2 tanks about to pop, so I didn't have any problems with that. He had about 12 or so marines. I just sat in my base producing 2 scvs at a time until I had siege mode up, moved the bunker down to my nat and could safely take my expansion (still slightly ahead of his completing, which he started about the same time he moved out).

Marine aggression is not really an issue. If they are going mass marauders, it might get tricky, but I've not really seen that until at least mid-late game once they work out that I am actually meching pretty hard.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Mon May 09, 2011 12:29 am UTC

|Erasmus| wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:
|Erasmus| wrote:I'm really enjoying going for heavy mech play at the moment, and have discovered it's usually fairly safe to go 1 rax expand in TvT at this level. I get a scouting reaper, then go into double factory (cause mass mech is actually so much fun in TvT) and soon an eng. bay in case i need turrets shortly after. And by at the moment, I mean I played 4 TvTs like that yesterday (anyone watch Goody vs. Select in the NASL yesterday? Because I just decided to go early 2 base 3 factory play after watching the first two games of that match It does just feel incredibly strong in that matchup... I'm just constantly scared that my opponent may be trying to get BCs out)


I used to 1 rax FE against terran, but got really paranoid about single base bio aggression as it just destroyed me. Which is why I 2 rax FE with slightly delayed gas nowadays. That way I can have three bunkers full of marines to defend my expo, which feels a lot safer. Tanks are slightly more difficult to deal with, but it's quite doable.

Against a 4 rax bio aggression before he backed off and expanded, I had one full bunker and 1 hellion when he got to my ramp, with 2 tanks about to pop, so I didn't have any problems with that. He had about 12 or so marines. I just sat in my base producing 2 scvs at a time until I had siege mode up, moved the bunker down to my nat and could safely take my expansion (still slightly ahead of his completing, which he started about the same time he moved out).

Marine aggression is not really an issue. If they are going mass marauders, it might get tricky, but I've not really seen that until at least mid-late game once they work out that I am actually meching pretty hard.


Yeah, it's specifically early marauder heavy bio that's been giving me headache when I 1 rax. They frequently have concussive shells, which does quite a number on whatever marines I have, and any mech I scramble is generally too little, too late. And bunkers are fairly weak against marauders with their bonus against armored targets.

I didn't see it particularly often, but when players used the composition, I found I didn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of holding it off. That was scary enough to dissuade me from going 1 rax fe on all but the biggest maps.
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