Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

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Swivelguy
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Swivelguy » Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:45 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:The main lessons to be learned from the campaign seems to be that when you're up against zerg, you should turtle a lot and save as much money you can.


That is a pretty good lesson for TvZ...
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:01 pm UTC

Swivelguy wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:The main lessons to be learned from the campaign seems to be that when you're up against zerg, you should turtle a lot and save as much money you can.


That is a pretty good lesson for TvZ...


Turtling in TvZ? Are you crazy? They'll have 27 bases by the 10 minute mark.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby achan1058 » Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:04 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:Turtling in TvZ? Are you crazy? They'll have 27 bases by the 10 minute mark.
lol, yeah. From what I see in the pro games, zerg can get 4 bases and maxed supply within 15 minutes, and this isn't an over statement.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Swivelguy » Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:14 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:
Swivelguy wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:The main lessons to be learned from the campaign seems to be that when you're up against zerg, you should turtle a lot and save as much money you can.


That is a pretty good lesson for TvZ...


Turtling in TvZ? Are you crazy? They'll have 27 bases by the 10 minute mark.


I was being sarcastic, but sometimes zerg gets eleventy bases no matter what you do and it feels like turtling is the only option. A turtled terran can kill most zerg units with pretty close to perfect efficiency.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby bobjoesmith » Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:21 am UTC

Swivelguy wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:
Swivelguy wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:The main lessons to be learned from the campaign seems to be that when you're up against zerg, you should turtle a lot and save as much money you can.


That is a pretty good lesson for TvZ...


Turtling in TvZ? Are you crazy? They'll have 27 bases by the 10 minute mark.


I was being sarcastic, but sometimes zerg gets eleventy bases no matter what you do and it feels like turtling is the only option. A turtled terran can kill most zerg units with pretty close to perfect efficiency.


You only want to full out turtle if you are going for heavy mech play vZ and have a all-in death push. However standard marine tank will want you being aggressive at certain timings. You need to, as terran, recede creep and force units instead of drones. Marine drops work until mutas pop, and even afterwards at certain junctures can help you combat the immobillity of the rest of your army.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kag » Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:33 am UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:The main lessons to be learned from the campaign seems to be that when you're up against zerg, you should turtle a lot and save as much money you can.


The main lesson is that you can beat 10 bases with 1 base if you have enough marines.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:34 am UTC

Kag wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:The main lessons to be learned from the campaign seems to be that when you're up against zerg, you should turtle a lot and save as much money you can.


The main lesson is that you can beat 10 bases with 1 base if you have enough marines.

It also teaches you to build lots of medics and firebats.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby mike-l » Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:48 am UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:
Kag wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:The main lessons to be learned from the campaign seems to be that when you're up against zerg, you should turtle a lot and save as much money you can.


The main lesson is that you can beat 10 bases with 1 base if you have enough marines.

It also teaches you to build lots of medics and firebats.


You built firebats? I only built marines, medics, and battlecruisers :) (And siege tanks for all in)
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Swivelguy » Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:50 am UTC

I did most of my brutal campaign run with vikings + banshees, once they both get AOE.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby achan1058 » Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:41 am UTC

Kag wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:The main lessons to be learned from the campaign seems to be that when you're up against zerg, you should turtle a lot and save as much money you can.


The main lesson is that you can beat 10 bases with 1 base if you have enough marines.
Don't forget stim. Stim and medic upgrade are totally OP.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:24 am UTC

bobjoesmith wrote:Marine drops work until mutas pop, and even afterwards at certain junctures can help you combat the immobillity of the rest of your army.


That used to be true, but then I watched MMA v Losira.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:32 pm UTC

Game_boy wrote:
bobjoesmith wrote:Marine drops work until mutas pop, and even afterwards at certain junctures can help you combat the immobillity of the rest of your army.


That used to be true, but then I watched MMA v Losira.

Marine drops can also be countered, but don't let that convince you they're worthless.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:53 pm UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:
Game_boy wrote:
bobjoesmith wrote:Marine drops work until mutas pop, and even afterwards at certain junctures can help you combat the immobillity of the rest of your army.


That used to be true, but then I watched MMA v Losira.

Marine drops can also be countered, but don't let that convince you they're worthless.


No, I watched MMA drop Losira non-stop (literally; always 3 dropships flying around) for 20 minutes after he had mutas out which allowed him to come back from a huge supply disadvantage, two games in a row.

http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/video/m ... lue-stream
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:24 pm UTC

On an unrelated note, I love utralisks. Like, there's no way those aren't OP. When someone lets me get to hive tech and start cranking out ultras I just A-move onto everything and win. Terran bio-ball? Dead unless composed VERY heavily of marauders. Bio-mech? Tanks have good DPS against ultras but they're so clustered they end up getting killed anyway. Protoss death-ball? Stalkers are armored, so ultras get a damage bonus, the collosi do fuck-all because they lose half their damage to armor, and zealots get in a line to get cleaved. Even in ZvZ people are usually getting roaches and hydras and ultras just stampede over them. The only units that do well against them are either air or niche units like immortals and marauders that people don't usually have in really high numbers. And if they do I can have an army of fully upgraded lings before they get to my base from destroying all my ultras.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:01 pm UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:On an unrelated note, I love utralisks. Like, there's no way those aren't OP.


I've only ever seen a Zerg get way ahead, tech to Ultras, then watch as their terrible pathing destroys all of their lead and then some. In an endgame scenario, there will be enough barracks/robotics around to get mauraders/immortals a couple of minutes after they see your ultras. So all they have to do is sacrifice 1 base or kite their army around the map (unless you have great fungals in which case use banes instead) while you produce Ultras 10 at a time and waste far more resources than they are losing. Then once the counter unit is out your tech and investment is worthless, as you only need a small part of the army to be immortals for it to be Ultra-proof. Same if they scout your tech building, then they can counter before they ever see an Ultra.

In general, while Ultras are good if they can actually hit stuff, they can't and you are better off spending the gas on banelings and infestors which deal more effective splash and don't cause you to die if you lose all of them.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby achan1058 » Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:14 pm UTC

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmes ... _id=226470

Apparently IMMvp has been trolling the NA ladder recently. 101-5 is simply ridiculous.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:11 am UTC

Game_boy wrote:
Spambot5546 wrote:On an unrelated note, I love utralisks. Like, there's no way those aren't OP.


I've only ever seen a Zerg get way ahead, tech to Ultras, then watch as their terrible pathing destroys all of their lead and then some. In an endgame scenario, there will be enough barracks/robotics around to get mauraders/immortals a couple of minutes after they see your ultras. So all they have to do is sacrifice 1 base or kite their army around the map (unless you have great fungals in which case use banes instead) while you produce Ultras 10 at a time and waste far more resources than they are losing. Then once the counter unit is out your tech and investment is worthless, as you only need a small part of the army to be immortals for it to be Ultra-proof. Same if they scout your tech building, then they can counter before they ever see an Ultra.

In general, while Ultras are good if they can actually hit stuff, they can't and you are better off spending the gas on banelings and infestors which deal more effective splash and don't cause you to die if you lose all of them.


This. Marauders do well against Ultralisks as long as you're kiting, and if you're using Infestors to stop the kiting... why are you using Ultralisks instead of cheaper Zerglings, anyway? Protoss can throw Zealots in front of the Ultralisks (Zealots perform favorably against Ultralisks due to their weak splash against Light units and their high HP, as well as costing no gas) until they can start fielding some Immortals. Archons also do very well against Ultralisks. I don't think I've seen it done in a while, but Ghosts are also very effective against Ultralisks, and can also shut down Infestors with EMP (Snipe is probably the best 25-energy ability in the game.)

That's not the same as saying Ultralisks are BAD... it's just that you can usually do better for the cost. If they got the Thor treatment and got made smaller so they could be more effective, I think Ultralisks would be looked at a good bit more favorably.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:48 am UTC

Beardhammer wrote:That's not the same as saying Ultralisks are BAD... it's just that you can usually do better for the cost.

The highest investment unit in the game doesn't even return its investment once over. I think that falls under the bad category.
I love them too, but that's why they make me so sad. :(

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:19 am UTC

Ultras are useful if you can flank with them (Nydus?). That's about it.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby achan1058 » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:29 am UTC

Ultra's would have been better if there is dark swarm.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:34 am UTC

With how big they are and how Blizzard nerfed AoE I'd think you could only fit an ultralisk under a dark swarm. Then because they're so slow, do you swarm the attack path or ontop of the terran army? Or maybe just not build ultras at all and go mass ling+infestor+defiler, because ultras are still terrible.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby mike-l » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:27 am UTC

psion wrote:
Beardhammer wrote:That's not the same as saying Ultralisks are BAD... it's just that you can usually do better for the cost.

The highest investment unit in the game doesn't even return its investment once over. I think that falls under the bad category.
I love them too, but that's why they make me so sad. :(


They're an endgame unit, ie they are generally only produced when efficiency in terms of supply has become much more important, so looking just at their mineral/gas cost isn't going to give a complete picture. Less important, but still a factor, is their efficiency in terms of larva, which they are by far the best at (but given that they are an endgame unit this is much less of a factor)
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby achan1058 » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:14 am UTC

mike-l wrote:They're an endgame unit, ie they are generally only produced when efficiency in terms of supply has become much more important, so looking just at their mineral/gas cost isn't going to give a complete picture. Less important, but still a factor, is their efficiency in terms of larva, which they are by far the best at (but given that they are an endgame unit this is much less of a factor)
I would add that by efficiency, it includes both HP and attack. Perhaps HP more than attack, even, since they are meant to tank and screw up splash more than take damage. At least, that's how ultralings were used in SC1.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:14 pm UTC

When I said investment I didn't just mean minerals and gas. And just because they cost the most resources to supply does not mean that they're supply efficient*. I don't think there's any way that I could prove their efficiency in a logical or mathematical sense, but from eyeballing an army of ultrarisks next to roaches, I'd say ultrarisks are about 30% more supply efficient than roaches. That's about the point when I'd say that I'm not sure which unit I'd prefer. It depends on the game, and is little more than an educated opinion, but that's the feeling that I get. ... It's probably also a favorable figure since I've used 3/3 ultrarisks more often than I've used 3/3 roaches. I have put some thought into it.

30% more supply efficiency than a roach isn't enough to justify everything else. They don't have a place in this cutthroat game of constant optimization, and will not until they get buffed. It's not like they trip on their own scythes and kill themselves though, you can still use them to end a game when you have a huge lead or something.

They are larva efficient... Yep....

*Upon review, it does in a technical sense. My idea of efficiency at the time was whether or not they are worth existing within a 200 supply limit, regardless of cost or tech. The contrast of thinking through experience and thinking through math is interesting...

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby el_loco_avs » Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:07 pm UTC

i like broodlords better.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:26 pm UTC

el_loco_avs wrote:i like broodlords better.

You pretty much summed the whole discussion down into one sentence.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:35 pm UTC

I'm sure all this is true, but the fact remains that every time I get into late game and start making ultras I steam-roll my opponent. Maybe I have Torrasques.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:42 pm UTC

psion wrote:
el_loco_avs wrote:i like broodlords better.

You pretty much summed the whole discussion down into one sentence.


Ultras are better against mass vikings, even with awesome land/lift micro.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Avin » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:13 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:Ultras are better against mass vikings, even with awesome land/lift micro.


List of zerg units that are better than brood lords against mass vikings:

* Drones
* Zerglings
* Queens
* Banelings
* Roaches
* Changelings
* Hydras
* Infestors
* Infested Terrans
* Mutalisks
* Corruptors
* Ultralisks
* Possibly Larvae

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Soralin » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:37 pm UTC

Well you could always go the path I've seen some long pro ZvT games go, go broodlords and force them to get vikings, and do as much damage as you can with your army, and then immediately replace your army with like 15 ultralisks before they can rebuild much.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:28 pm UTC

Avin wrote:
Menacing Spike wrote:Ultras are better against mass vikings, even with awesome land/lift micro.


List of zerg units that are better than brood lords against mass vikings:


Image

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Swivelguy » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:20 pm UTC

Watching my replays vs csd and reading the observer chat in sc2gears, I've decided that I need to start checking occasionally how many workers I have and where they all are. Those meanies made fun of me for having 20 SCVs on a single mineral patch. :(
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kain » Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:50 pm UTC

Swivelguy wrote:Watching my replays vs csd and reading the observer chat in sc2gears, I've decided that I need to start checking occasionally how many workers I have and where they all are. Those meanies made fun of me for having 20 SCVs on a single mineral patch. :(


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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Xeio » Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:19 am UTC

Swivelguy wrote:Watching my replays vs csd and reading the observer chat in sc2gears, I've decided that I need to start checking occasionally how many workers I have and where they all are. Those meanies made fun of me for having 20 SCVs on a single mineral patch. :(
You weren't mining inefficiently, you were baiting a hellion/baneling drop! :P

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:47 am UTC

I was watching an old episode of Doctor Who where the Daleks went "Exterminate! Annihilate! Destroy!"

Sounded like Archons.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Xanthir » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:53 am UTC

I pulled out my first legitimate win this morning (out of, like, 5 non-placement matches and no previous experience with MP play at all (so I had to learn from experience that you train abilities out of the tech labs, and medics and goliaths don't exist, grr)). Woo!

Still made several glaring mistakes, but I got the general *rhythm* down now, so it's just a matter of improving my timing now and I'll be playing proper silver-level play. Also, my opponent's idea of "saturation" was "1 probe per mineral field". And he decided the best use of his templar's energy was 5 hallucinated collosuses, instead of a storm on my bioball.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kain » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:06 am UTC

Xanthir wrote:I pulled out my first legitimate win this morning (out of, like, 5 non-placement matches and no previous experience with MP play at all (so I had to learn from experience that you train abilities out of the tech labs, and medics and goliaths don't exist, grr)). Woo!

Still made several glaring mistakes, but I got the general *rhythm* down now, so it's just a matter of improving my timing now and I'll be playing proper silver-level play. Also, my opponent's idea of "saturation" was "1 probe per mineral field". And he decided the best use of his templar's energy was 5 hallucinated collosuses, instead of a storm on my bioball.


Hallucinate is a sentry ability in SC2, and storm (still on templar) requires an upgrade to use. You were probably quite safe from mental storms of death :)
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:35 am UTC

Soralin wrote:Well you could always go the path I've seen some long pro ZvT games go, go broodlords and force them to get vikings, and do as much damage as you can with your army, and then immediately replace your army with like 15 ultralisks before they can rebuild much.


This can work, but you'd have to already have a commanding lead over your opponent to pull it off. Broodlords have the longest tech path of any unit in the game and are painfully obvious as soon as they notice your spire is morphing. They're also extremely slow and aren't even that good against a lot of ground units (marines, hydralisks, and stalkers can all shred them easily unless you keep them hiding off of a cliff.)

Swapping to Ultralisks will take an enormous resource investment - especially since you probably haven't been researching melee attack upgrades (your two evo chambers have probably been pumping missile attack and ground carapace.) Ultralisks are also incredibly ineffective in any map with multiple chokes present due to their large size.

Much as I hate to admit it, it's very hard to recommend Zerg do much else besides ling/bane/muta/infestor against Terran and roach/hydra/infestor against Protoss (and roach/infestor against other Zerg.)

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby el_loco_avs » Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:07 pm UTC

Aah just played one of my best games yet. Kept money low, scouted him going mass-marines (which mean me going ling/bling). Harassed with a baneling bust and expanded at the same time. (didn't do much damage but psychological damage counts :mrgreen: ). Then got enough of a force of lings/blings to take out expansion but scouted him attacking (good size force..) but I caught him in transit, doing a normal move so I MASSACRED his army (it was beautiful, rolling right into the side of his line of marching MMM). Expanded again and then pressured with ling/bling, taking out his natural and wall before getting the gg.


also, a question. That dude "stole" my second gas. ie, half-built an extractor on it. I just ignored it and my first two lings + queens took it out (waited to build blingnest till afterwards). What is the value of stealing that? I never get my second gas early enough to be really bothered?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Swivelguy » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:50 pm UTC

el_loco_avs wrote:also, a question. That dude "stole" my second gas. ie, half-built an extractor on it. I just ignored it and my first two lings + queens took it out (waited to build blingnest till afterwards). What is the value of stealing that? I never get my second gas early enough to be really bothered?


The value of stealing that is delaying or forbidding anything gas-heavy like a muta rush or cloaked roaches. Sounds like it even delayed your baneling nest construction because you didn't want it scouted (although the vision range of an unfinished building is quite small, so if you killed his SCV, you could have just built the bane nest a bit away from that refinery and it wouldn't have been seen).

Gas stealing against a zerg is not that useful, it's almost never done in high-level games. It's much more common to see zerg stealing the gas of a terran (no banshees for you) or protoss (delays the sentry or colossus count). Based on the non-A-move, it sounds like you aren't playing high level games.
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