Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

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eb49
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby eb49 » Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:36 am UTC

Hi Guys,

Been lurking the thread a bit today and decided to muster up some questions.

What are peoples opinions of a depth vs breadth idea with respect to learning the game of starcraft 2? Recently i got into the ladder aspect of the game and decided to see how i could get the most fun out of it...

To my surprise i found the most exciting way to ladder was as random race. So here is my main question, as a 14th placed Bronze division nub will my skill increase at the same rate i would if i had not chosen Random as a race?

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:07 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:
TheBanana wrote:
Also cause stalker + high templar owns helions and it's an easy transition. The real question would be why terrans don't go thor + helion against that unit combo. People need to do more mech play.


Because feedback.


Yes but feedback really isn't thaaaaaat effective against thors, especially if you have blue flame helions to snipe the HT's. The only good reason I can think of not going thor is that on big maps they are so damn slow and it's tough to attack with em. I occasionally do helion / thor / scv drops against protoss (when I'm close air position) and it's wonderfully effective.


Beardhammer wrote:Immortals. Cost less and are produced faster. Yeah, strike cannons will eliminate individual immortals, but it also stuns the thor, and thors lose horribly in a straight fight, let alone when those immortals are supported with stalkers or zealots. Immortal+zealot would wreck thor+hellion.


We were talking about countering heavy gateway based play not heavy robo play.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:09 pm UTC

yurell wrote:Okay, Terran are soooo much harder to play than zerg from my SEA high-silver zerg P.O.V.
I've been away from SC2 for a good three months, so my macro has suffered (and, being in silver, my macro is the reason I lose games), and I've decided to start playing random. I'm working on terran atm, and I've just found it incredibly difficult. Instead of my macro rotation being 5v4s(whatever) every time my larvae pop, I need to constantly shift through all the hotkeys for all my buildings to see which one isn't training at the moment.

Oh well, intend to play terran for a week or two before practising protoss, and then get started on randoming!


Cheers! Another random player :D


eb49 wrote:Hi Guys,

Been lurking the thread a bit today and decided to muster up some questions.

What are peoples opinions of a depth vs breadth idea with respect to learning the game of starcraft 2? Recently i got into the ladder aspect of the game and decided to see how i could get the most fun out of it...

To my surprise i found the most exciting way to ladder was as random race. So here is my main question, as a 14th placed Bronze division nub will my skill increase at the same rate i would if i had not chosen Random as a race?


Cheers! Aaannd another random player haha!
Ok, so I'm a bit biased cause all I've ever played is random but I think that initially you'll have a much harder time learning as playing random because you'll have to learn ALL the hotkeys and ALL the basic safe builds and ALL the basic strategies. BUUUTT, on the other hand once you get the basics of each race under your belt then you'll learning quicker because you'll have a better, 1st person, idea of the strategies, counters and cute little tricks available to all the races.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:35 pm UTC

I don't understand this (see attached image).
Them ignoring me has the effect of heightening my amusement (it feels delicious, like bullying a baby), but what is the purpose of this action?

Random player:
Random is fun as you get more diversity and can quickly become familiar with unit weakness, etc. Did a strategy beat you? Try it, and learn the counter when you lose.

You'll probably tend to favor a race later on (for me it's terran; HUUNGH the options).
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:49 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:I don't understand this (see attached image).
Them ignoring me has the effect of heightening my amusement (it feels delicious, like bullying a baby), but what is the purpose of this action?

Random player:
Random is fun as you get more diversity and can quickly become familiar with unit weakness, etc. Did a strategy beat you? Try it, and learn the counter when you lose.

You'll probably tend to favor a race later on (for me it's terran; HUUNGH the options).


Players do that to me too sometimes. They'll rant or insult me and then ignore me before I can respond. I'm guessing they just need to blow off some steam and don't want you to clinically point out that their own lack of skill is the main reason they lost so I generally don't worry about em.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby yurell » Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:00 pm UTC

eb49:

That depends how you define 'skill'. If you define it simply as your ladder rank, then no it shall not improve faster than laddering. However, you will increase in skill at every race at once by randoming, which also gives you an understanding of what your enemy is doing when they're playing that race (since you know their builds and the limitations thereof). At our level, however, the problem is macro. Chances are that if you're gold or lower, better macro will be the key to winning or losing. Strategies are fancy things to add on top once you have the mechanics down, and while it takes longer learning the mechanics for every race, it will probably benefit you in the long run (my friends who played SC2 randomed his way up to diamond before specialising, and felt that he was much better off for the experience).

Eventually, though, you will have to specialise (well, there are some people who random in Master / Grandmaster, but that's a tiny proportion overall), but that's not something that need concern you at present, especially if you find randoming fun. After all, that is why we play the game.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm UTC

I don't think playing random has any affect on the ability to improve. Even if you pick you'll run into so many asinine builds and strategies in ladder that you won't ever be in the same situation twice, so you might as well be random anyway. And as I told mute the other day, more enjoyment = the more you play = the more you improve.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:50 pm UTC

psion wrote:I don't think playing random has any affect on the ability to improve. Even if you pick you'll run into so many asinine builds and strategies in ladder that you won't ever be in the same situation twice, so you might as well be random anyway. And as I told mute the other day, more enjoyment = the more you play = the more you improve.


I still think random was the most effective way for me to learn but since I didn't actually try to learn any other way I guess it's tough to tell soooooooooooooo whatevs


On a completely separate matter I found this to be absolutely hilarious
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblo ... _id=234384
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:55 pm UTC

psion wrote:I don't think playing random has any affect on the ability to improve. Even if you pick you'll run into so many asinine builds and strategies in ladder that you won't ever be in the same situation twice, so you might as well be random anyway. And as I told mute the other day, more enjoyment = the more you play = the more you improve.

I will say that just grinding games you -do- improve, but if you don't actively try and learn from games/losses it may not be that much.

I playeda fair bit for a good amount of season 1, but I never got out of silver on SEA. Since the start of season 2, i'm now rank 6 or something in plat, and get matched against diamond players. You can 'just play' but if you don't do it right you don't necessarily learn much.

And the only benefit I see from playing random is that knowing how the other races work is useful when playing against them. I am doing much better in TvZ since I spent a little more time off-racing as Z so I could get a better feel for how I should be picking them apart.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby el_loco_avs » Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:34 am UTC

Watching youtube vids by day9/husky etc has helped me a lot lately. I've got my macro down more and seeing people do things have made me more comfortable being aggressive economically. I was already feeling like I was aggresive with expanding, but I can be even more (first i just went pool, gas, lings, expand. now expand,pool,gas.... and just wait and scout and build lings when necessary). And it's working.

Haven't played a lot but I have a little win streak. Last guy was "slightly favoured". Absolutely TRASHED him. Used a minimal amount of defense at first. (queens, 1 spinecrawler). Then zerged him. Then hid lings near his exit and caught him in transit. bling'd his wall. He decided do float away his CC to an island mineralpatch.

Decided to get some style points and just blingbombed him. :mrgreen:
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:00 am UTC

So my SC2 maps have been acting weird lately and YES I mean the maps...

This has happened on other maps. Usually buildings will look weird and on one map there were was this design in red across the entire map...
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:19 am UTC

Yeah. SC2 has these glitches every now and then. Happens to way too many people to be a hardware problem.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:28 am UTC

TheBanana wrote:Yes but feedback really isn't thaaaaaat effective against thors, especially if you have blue flame helions to snipe the HT's. The only good reason I can think of not going thor is that on big maps they are so damn slow and it's tough to attack with em. I occasionally do helion / thor / scv drops against protoss (when I'm close air position) and it's wonderfully effective.

I've beaten a Thor army in a 4v4 match by simply taking out their base(s) before they could take out ours. And we had collossi.

(we also expanded to some islands to keep resources coming in -- but the army that made it through their base ended up being strong enough to destroy the army that made it through ours.)

And it wasn't the only time our response to a Thor army was "ok, that's cute. Now, how about your base?" You can almost build bases up faster than Thors can destroy them sometimes...
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:45 am UTC

TheBanana wrote:So my SC2 maps have been acting weird lately and YES I mean the maps...

At least you didn't get the marine face texture on the map. It's disturbing.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:53 am UTC

The problem with HTs is that they are very cost effective against thors. A single HT can feedback four Thors, cutting their health bars in half and making them completely useless against immortals. Thors are expensive shit. For the cost of 4 thors and strike cannon research, you get a templar archives, a high templar and four immortals (even though you'd probably manage that battle with only two immortals).
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby el_loco_avs » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:21 pm UTC

5 game winstreak where I never got close to losing. Despite one or two being "slightly favoured" over me. Almost all terran too.


Last guy expanded early with bunkers but didn't wall off at all. Wat.


edit:
in other words why the hell am i ranked 24th in bronze? I think I should be moving up. Probably just not palying enough :(
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:32 pm UTC

Lol @ GSL finals. Every GSL season has such amazing games and such a disappointing, one-sided final (Inca, Rain, July, MKP).

The DongRaeGu vs sCfOu game played right before completely made up for it. Both players incredibly good.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:46 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:The problem with HTs is that they are very cost effective against thors. A single HT can feedback four Thors, cutting their health bars in half and making them completely useless against immortals. Thors are expensive shit. For the cost of 4 thors and strike cannon research, you get a templar archives, a high templar and four immortals (even though you'd probably manage that battle with only two immortals).


Yeah but I'm assuming people would be smart enough get helions with their thors to roast the HTs. If toss leads with the immortals the thor can strike cannon them. If they lead w/ the Hts the helions can sneak in and roast the HTs so it becomes a micro battle like most good engagements should.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:08 pm UTC

TheBanana wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:The problem with HTs is that they are very cost effective against thors. A single HT can feedback four Thors, cutting their health bars in half and making them completely useless against immortals. Thors are expensive shit. For the cost of 4 thors and strike cannon research, you get a templar archives, a high templar and four immortals (even though you'd probably manage that battle with only two immortals).


Yeah but I'm assuming people would be smart enough get helions with their thors to roast the HTs. If toss leads with the immortals the thor can strike cannon them. If they lead w/ the Hts the helions can sneak in and roast the HTs so it becomes a micro battle like most good engagements should.


Warp prism drop the templars?
Should work in theory; I never met a terran smart enough to snipe the templars... Hmmm, delicious feedback. And terran tears.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby achan1058 » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:19 pm UTC

Game_boy wrote:Lol @ GSL finals. Every GSL season has such amazing games and such a disappointing, one-sided final (Inca, Rain, July, MKP).

The DongRaeGu vs sCfOu game played right before completely made up for it. Both players incredibly good.
Well, it's a GSL finals after all. We expect that to be lopsided. It's a curse.
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It's still amazing that the GSL finals has less games compared to the LG cinema finals. :lol:

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:21 am UTC

TheBanana wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:The problem with HTs is that they are very cost effective against thors. A single HT can feedback four Thors, cutting their health bars in half and making them completely useless against immortals. Thors are expensive shit. For the cost of 4 thors and strike cannon research, you get a templar archives, a high templar and four immortals (even though you'd probably manage that battle with only two immortals).


Yeah but I'm assuming people would be smart enough get helions with their thors to roast the HTs. If toss leads with the immortals the thor can strike cannon them. If they lead w/ the Hts the helions can sneak in and roast the HTs so it becomes a micro battle like most good engagements should.


You'd get ghosts, not hellions. Ghosts can EMP the Templar to make them useless and EMP the Immortals to remove their major advantage against the Thors. They can also quickly eliminate the HTs with Snipe, and assuming you don't ball up, you're forcing the Templar to decide between zapping Thors or zapping Ghosts (assuming they have detection so they can even SEE the ghosts.) Ghosts also negate most sentry use, halve the HP of Stalkers, and put a dent in Colossi, Zealots, and Void Rays as well. Hellions are only useful in a PvT matchup if they're making a LOT of Zealots.

As for cost, Thors can easily be repaired, Feedback will only do a maximum of 50% of their health, and Templar cost 50/250 apiece, plus 200/200 to research Psionic Storm. You could morph Archons with your empty ones, but Archons cost 100/300, which makes them even MORE expensive than Thors due to resource weighting (gas is worth five to ten times as much as minerals, generally), and they're still vulnerable to EMP (one EMP cuts their total health by a third.) They can also be kited with Concussive Shells, unless they finally realized Archons not being Massive was dumb.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:30 am UTC

Beardhammer wrote:Templar cost 50/250 apiece


50/150.

Also Archons can be 250/250 from DTs, which I prefer at least.

(gas is worth five to ten times as much as minerals, generally)


Fully saturated income is about 3:1. Most bases have much less than full mineral saturation when you're on 2 or 3 bases (unless you have 60/90 probes that soon) so it's normally just over 2:1 in actual midgame scenarios. Nowhere near five or ten.

Pure stalker (125/50) is about even on resources.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:08 pm UTC

ZvP. Things start out fairly standard. I prod the front with my lings. From everything that I can see it looks like a 3gate expand, but my cheese senses are tingling. I throw down two spines to feel a little better, but I have to be sure. He moves down the ramp and puts down a forge and nexus. The forge sells the expansion to me so I make a huge round of drones. I've got a unit positioned as far away from the nexus as possible to watch it finish and... boom. Canceled. Fuck. I try to cancel my drones but it's too late. I've got maybe 30 seconds to prepare.
I spam spines and roaches. The push should be here right about... What's that shimmer? DTs start wrecking my spines.
This is officially the cheesiest build ever.
He takes out a few spines before I can get an overseer out, and then in come the gateway units. He force fields my ramp and my units are stuck ontop because they were defending my main from the DT. It's my 3 queens and 4 spines against his 5gate. I use the spines to focus on the sentries but he still has plenty of energy to force field my ramp a few more times. I transfuse the spines as much as possible but they're falling fast. The force field breaks and out comes the 10 very angry roaches that proceed to obliterate everything. He leaves.

There's nothing more satisfying for me than holding a fake nexus. Well, except for that plus what happened immediately afterwards.
Spoiler:
mplg.jpg

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:51 pm UTC

Beardhammer wrote:
TheBanana wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:The problem with HTs is that they are very cost effective against thors. A single HT can feedback four Thors, cutting their health bars in half and making them completely useless against immortals. Thors are expensive shit. For the cost of 4 thors and strike cannon research, you get a templar archives, a high templar and four immortals (even though you'd probably manage that battle with only two immortals).


Yeah but I'm assuming people would be smart enough get helions with their thors to roast the HTs. If toss leads with the immortals the thor can strike cannon them. If they lead w/ the Hts the helions can sneak in and roast the HTs so it becomes a micro battle like most good engagements should.


You'd get ghosts, not hellions. Ghosts can EMP the Templar to make them useless and EMP the Immortals to remove their major advantage against the Thors. They can also quickly eliminate the HTs with Snipe, and assuming you don't ball up, you're forcing the Templar to decide between zapping Thors or zapping Ghosts (assuming they have detection so they can even SEE the ghosts.) Ghosts also negate most sentry use, halve the HP of Stalkers, and put a dent in Colossi, Zealots, and Void Rays as well. Hellions are only useful in a PvT matchup if they're making a LOT of Zealots.

As for cost, Thors can easily be repaired, Feedback will only do a maximum of 50% of their health, and Templar cost 50/250 apiece, plus 200/200 to research Psionic Storm. You could morph Archons with your empty ones, but Archons cost 100/300, which makes them even MORE expensive than Thors due to resource weighting (gas is worth five to ten times as much as minerals, generally), and they're still vulnerable to EMP (one EMP cuts their total health by a third.) They can also be kited with Concussive Shells, unless they finally realized Archons not being Massive was dumb.


Why would you research storm if the opponent is going mech?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kag » Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:28 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:Why would you research storm if the opponent is going mech?


Uh, because storm is awesome. Who cares if it's in any way practical?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:39 pm UTC

psion wrote:ZvP. Things start out fairly standard. I prod the front with my lings. From everything that I can see it looks like a 3gate expand, but my cheese senses are tingling. I throw down two spines to feel a little better, but I have to be sure. He moves down the ramp and puts down a forge and nexus. The forge sells the expansion to me so I make a huge round of drones. I've got a unit positioned as far away from the nexus as possible to watch it finish and... boom. Canceled. Fuck. I try to cancel my drones but it's too late. I've got maybe 30 seconds to prepare.
I spam spines and roaches. The push should be here right about... What's that shimmer? DTs start wrecking my spines.
This is officially the cheesiest build ever.
He takes out a few spines before I can get an overseer out, and then in come the gateway units. He force fields my ramp and my units are stuck ontop because they were defending my main from the DT. It's my 3 queens and 4 spines against his 5gate. I use the spines to focus on the sentries but he still has plenty of energy to force field my ramp a few more times. I transfuse the spines as much as possible but they're falling fast. The force field breaks and out comes the 10 very angry roaches that proceed to obliterate everything. He leaves.

There's nothing more satisfying for me than holding a fake nexus. Well, except for that plus what happened immediately afterwards.
Spoiler:
mplg.jpg



Congratz Psion!!

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby el_loco_avs » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:36 pm UTC

Anyone watching the Dreamhack sc2 tournament?


I had to bail on a game that apparantly lasted over an hour. :shock:
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:20 pm UTC

Kag wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:Why would you research storm if the opponent is going mech?


Uh, because storm is awesome.


That's funny, I thought the exact same thing.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:16 pm UTC

Well done psion.

Now, tell me how I'm supposed to beat zergs in situations like cross positions on tal'darim altar. My last attempt I went 1 rax expand, and I was able to have some map control for a time, but he just took a fast third and I was unable to put enough pressure on from these positions to stop him getting to hive tech. I killed his first army of ultras/broodlords/mutas/banelings, but he could then remax so much faster that it didn't really matter.

It was then that fun situation where I fight 200 food with 180, then 160, etc. and eventually die.

So, my now standard 2-rax doesn't really cut it on these positions, and going for something like a 4-rax push after the FE doesn't help because he will have banelings by that time (or at least +1 speedlings and spines). Should I do something like my normal TvT build which opens blue flame hellion drop into an expand?

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby sunami » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:33 am UTC

el_loco_avs wrote:Anyone watching the Dreamhack sc2 tournament?


I had to bail on a game that apparantly lasted over an hour. :shock:

I was working today, but I did have the chance to watch Huk v Moon g1.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:04 am UTC

The large map means it's harder to use overlords to spot for drops. If you do a drop or two to lure/distract your opponent it should give you time to get siege tanks up right outside the natural or third. You should have a CC building or getting ready to take an expansion before you do any of that since it's a fairly good time to PF expand. Send a marine or three where you're expanding so that your CC doesn't look stupid because there's a ling or overlord in the way. Too many people don't do that.

A fast hellion drop is a gamble. It's up to you if you want to do that, but you have to kill about 7 drones for it to even pay for itself.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:34 am UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:
Beardhammer wrote:
TheBanana wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:The problem with HTs is that they are very cost effective against thors. A single HT can feedback four Thors, cutting their health bars in half and making them completely useless against immortals. Thors are expensive shit. For the cost of 4 thors and strike cannon research, you get a templar archives, a high templar and four immortals (even though you'd probably manage that battle with only two immortals).


Yeah but I'm assuming people would be smart enough get helions with their thors to roast the HTs. If toss leads with the immortals the thor can strike cannon them. If they lead w/ the Hts the helions can sneak in and roast the HTs so it becomes a micro battle like most good engagements should.


You'd get ghosts, not hellions. Ghosts can EMP the Templar to make them useless and EMP the Immortals to remove their major advantage against the Thors. They can also quickly eliminate the HTs with Snipe, and assuming you don't ball up, you're forcing the Templar to decide between zapping Thors or zapping Ghosts (assuming they have detection so they can even SEE the ghosts.) Ghosts also negate most sentry use, halve the HP of Stalkers, and put a dent in Colossi, Zealots, and Void Rays as well. Hellions are only useful in a PvT matchup if they're making a LOT of Zealots.

As for cost, Thors can easily be repaired, Feedback will only do a maximum of 50% of their health, and Templar cost 50/250 apiece, plus 200/200 to research Psionic Storm. You could morph Archons with your empty ones, but Archons cost 100/300, which makes them even MORE expensive than Thors due to resource weighting (gas is worth five to ten times as much as minerals, generally), and they're still vulnerable to EMP (one EMP cuts their total health by a third.) They can also be kited with Concussive Shells, unless they finally realized Archons not being Massive was dumb.


Why would you research storm if the opponent is going mech?


Because if he throws down a bunch of rax and throws a ton of marauders at you, you're utterly screwed.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:26 am UTC

Beardhammer wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:Why would you research storm if the opponent is going mech?


Because if he throws down a bunch of rax and throws a ton of marauders at you, you're utterly screwed.

Because the usual counters to mech (being chargelots and immortals) are not also the exact units you want against marauders? :/

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:59 am UTC

el_loco_avs wrote:Anyone watching the Dreamhack sc2 tournament?


I had to bail on a game that apparantly lasted over an hour. :shock:


Which one was that?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby el_loco_avs » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:22 am UTC

Game_boy wrote:
el_loco_avs wrote:Anyone watching the Dreamhack sc2 tournament?


I had to bail on a game that apparantly lasted over an hour. :shock:


Which one was that?



I think the opening game on saturday. EmpireKas vs VirusNaama.

Stream actually seems to last for less than an hour. Weird. Someone said it was that long. Still a long game

http://blip.tv/day9tv/naama-t-vs-empire ... -c-5290574
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby el_loco_avs » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:46 am UTC

I'm bad at handling early aggression now i'm trying early expand. Ugh. I should maybe still be a little more careful.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Jesse » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:20 pm UTC

You Terran? If so, just get in the habit of scouting, and if you see them moving out, build a bunker or two. They're not completely free anymore, but (especially at the lower leagues) it won't harm your economy too much against theirs.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:27 pm UTC

el_loco_avs wrote:
Game_boy wrote:
el_loco_avs wrote:Anyone watching the Dreamhack sc2 tournament?


I had to bail on a game that apparantly lasted over an hour. :shock:


Which one was that?



I think the opening game on saturday. EmpireKas vs VirusNaama.

Stream actually seems to last for less than an hour. Weird. Someone said it was that long. Still a long game

http://blip.tv/day9tv/naama-t-vs-empire ... -c-5290574


SC2 game time is 38% faster than real time for historical reasons, and it's normal to talk in game time terms. Thanks.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:48 pm UTC

Beardhammer wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:
Spoiler:
Beardhammer wrote:
TheBanana wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:The problem with HTs is that they are very cost effective against thors. A single HT can feedback four Thors, cutting their health bars in half and making them completely useless against immortals. Thors are expensive shit. For the cost of 4 thors and strike cannon research, you get a templar archives, a high templar and four immortals (even though you'd probably manage that battle with only two immortals).


Yeah but I'm assuming people would be smart enough get helions with their thors to roast the HTs. If toss leads with the immortals the thor can strike cannon them. If they lead w/ the Hts the helions can sneak in and roast the HTs so it becomes a micro battle like most good engagements should.


You'd get ghosts, not hellions. Ghosts can EMP the Templar to make them useless and EMP the Immortals to remove their major advantage against the Thors. They can also quickly eliminate the HTs with Snipe, and assuming you don't ball up, you're forcing the Templar to decide between zapping Thors or zapping Ghosts (assuming they have detection so they can even SEE the ghosts.) Ghosts also negate most sentry use, halve the HP of Stalkers, and put a dent in Colossi, Zealots, and Void Rays as well. Hellions are only useful in a PvT matchup if they're making a LOT of Zealots.

As for cost, Thors can easily be repaired, Feedback will only do a maximum of 50% of their health, and Templar cost 50/250 apiece, plus 200/200 to research Psionic Storm. You could morph Archons with your empty ones, but Archons cost 100/300, which makes them even MORE expensive than Thors due to resource weighting (gas is worth five to ten times as much as minerals, generally), and they're still vulnerable to EMP (one EMP cuts their total health by a third.) They can also be kited with Concussive Shells, unless they finally realized Archons not being Massive was dumb.


Why would you research storm if the opponent is going mech?


Because if he throws down a bunch of rax and throws a ton of marauders at you, you're utterly screwed.


This would be a valid argument if terran was zerg. Completely re-teching as terran is costly and time consuming, not only because you have to throw down a fuckton of rax, but also because you need get infantry upgrades. Besides, with robo tech you should have no trouble identifying a re-tech in progress and react to it when it happens.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:01 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:
Beardhammer wrote:Immortals. Cost less and are produced faster. Yeah, strike cannons will eliminate individual immortals, but it also stuns the thor, and thors lose horribly in a straight fight, let alone when those immortals are supported with stalkers or zealots. Immortal+zealot would wreck thor+hellion.


Immortals have vastly inferior range, cost a ton, and get demolished by emp. Before the strike canon nerf...


Thor sqrt(HP * DPS) vs Immortals: sqrt( 46.9 * 400 ) =~ 134 @ 300/200
Immortal sqrt(HP * DPS) with no shields vs Thor: sqrt( (20.7+13.8) * 200 ) =~ 83 @ 250/100

If we value green at 3:1 for blue, this gives Thors a 134/900 = 0.149 efficiency vs Immortals, and Immortals a 83/550 0.151 efficiency vs Thors.
At supply-values, 134/6 = 22.3 supeff for Thors, and 20.75 supeff for Immortals.

Thors have a range advantage on Immortals. So if you presume perfect EMP on all Immortals, Immortals are not a counter for Thors (before strike cannon even).

Ghost: 200/100 each, AOE EMP (2.0 radius) for 75 energy.
High Templar: 50/150 each, single target feedback for 75 energy.

Assuming the HT Feedback the Thors, and the Ghosts EMP the Immortals, we have a different situation.

The Thors lose 50-200 health from each EMP. This drops their effectiveness down to as low as 96.9, which makes them inefficient in all respects compared to Immortals.

Ie, take these builds:
4 Immortals and 1 HT is 1050 blue 550 green and 18 supply.
3 Thors is 900 blue and 600 green and 18 supply.

So long as the Ghosts don't manage to snipe the HT, the Immortal force will win, won't it?

Regardless, it is pretty sad that you need to do that much micro to deal with a relatively simple Thor + EMP attack for Immortals, who are "designed" to kill Thors.
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