Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby EvanED » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:10 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:I too seem to recall that anti-air units in brood-war would always preferentially target interceptors over carriers, but checking a few brood-wars related wiki's doesn't show any support for that

They would. What I'm saying is that the pros often deliberately left their units to attack the interceptors instead of target-firing the carriers, even microing those units against the interceptors. This is true even in the situation where it was carriers vs gols only, so the gols wouldn't have run into opposing ground units etc. I'm not sure about this, but I'm under the impression that it used to be the case that the pros would go for the carriers, but this changed because they discovered that the interceptors were a better target. (Obviously I'm talking in general here; specific situations could dictate other responses.)

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby broken_escalator » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:12 pm UTC

Yeah, if the goliath upgrade did let them out-range the carriers that would make sense. I had forgotten about that upgrade since goliaths aren't in SC2 multiplayer!

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:06 pm UTC

Goliaths also had way better AA than Thors. 1 Thor takes 6 seconds to kill one Interceptor. 3 Goliaths don't take anywhere near that long.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Mo0man » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:32 pm UTC

They fill different roles though. I'd like to see goliaths take a large pack of mutas
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby EvanED » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:52 pm UTC

Mo0man wrote:They fill different roles though. I'd like to see goliaths take a large pack of mutas

Ask and ye shall receive. :-)

But yes, that's sort of the exception that proves the rule.

Edit: Also, on further reflection, that's an old game (obviously, from the players). I'm not sure how common muta micro was at that point, or how good players were at it. There wasn't much going on in that video. On the flip side, I also recall some mech builds becoming popular shortly before I stopped watching that used gols fairly heavily against the muta harass. In particular, I recall talk about gols + m&m, with the gols providing range and the m&m providing higher DPS if the muta got too close to the gols.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:50 am UTC

It's hardly worth comparing the two. Thors do neat splash against clumped, light targets. Goliaths have much better DPS against individual targets.

Although, I loved the goliaths with the upgrade that let them use both sets of weapons at once in the campaign. Damn they were good. How I wish you could get that for thors... :O

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby mutestorm » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:42 am UTC

|Erasmus| wrote:It's hardly worth comparing the two. Thors do neat splash against clumped, light targets. Goliaths have much better DPS against individual targets.

Although, I loved the goliaths with the upgrade that let them use both sets of weapons at once in the campaign. Damn they were good. How I wish you could get that for thors... :O

I think the whole 'theyll kill mutas well!' is a silver mindset. Anyone who doesnt magic mutas doesnt know how to play zvt.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:32 am UTC

mutestorm wrote:
|Erasmus| wrote:It's hardly worth comparing the two. Thors do neat splash against clumped, light targets. Goliaths have much better DPS against individual targets.

Although, I loved the goliaths with the upgrade that let them use both sets of weapons at once in the campaign. Damn they were good. How I wish you could get that for thors... :O

I think the whole 'theyll kill mutas well!' is a silver mindset. Anyone who doesnt magic mutas doesnt know how to play zvt.

And anyone who does is liable to have them killed by marines. I feel that mindset is equally poor. Mutas do not do a good job of picking off stray tanks or harrassing well in general if they are not stacked, so a few thors are invaluable for stopping largish muta balls from wrecking you in these situations. It is one of the weaknesses of mech T that magic boxed mutas perform decently against thors, but keeping them boxed constantly is not feasible without absurd apm, and even two thor volleys is enough to severely weaken a clumped muta ball.

I know I'm guilty of not doing it often enough but if you go heavy mech against zerg, a few vikings should be incorporated sooner rather than later. The real zerg 'answer' to mech is brood lords, and you need vikings for that, and vikings also perform okay against mutas if the mutas are boxed to avoid thor splash (plus the starport can let you get a raven, and pdd laughs at the mutas trying to sit in range of thors and take them down...)

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:20 am UTC

EvanED wrote:What I'm saying is that the pros often deliberately left their units to attack the interceptors instead of target-firing the carriers, even microing those units against the interceptors. This is true even in the situation where it was carriers vs gols only, so the gols wouldn't have run into opposing ground units etc. I'm not sure about this, but I'm under the impression that it used to be the case that the pros would go for the carriers, but this changed because they discovered that the interceptors were a better target. (Obviously I'm talking in general here; specific situations could dictate other responses.)

Carriers are faster and are air units (duh, but I mean they don't suffer from any of BW's pathing problems). The goliaths definitely want to hit those carriers, but any given pro player won't let them, so hitting the interceptors becomes the next best option.
EvanED wrote:Edit: Also, on further reflection, that's an old game (obviously, from the players). I'm not sure how common muta micro was at that point, or how good players were at it. There wasn't much going on in that video.

It's practically impossible to micro that much muta. That game is from 2007.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:47 am UTC

|Erasmus| wrote:Those maps look pretty terrible. I -really- like the one where the nearest third base is the gold right out in the middle of nowhere and with rocks guarding the damn thing. Doesn't look like fun at all. I don't think blizz even read their own forums... Everyone there is just asking why they won't add GSL maps or ICCup maps, and I have to agree... I don't know why we can't have maps like Bel'Shir beach or testbug or dual sight, or one or two more of the giant macro maps. I don't think I'd love those ones for TvZ, but I would rather them than stuff like slag pits or backwater gulch. [/rant]


The solution is a broader range of maps and many more vetos. I really don't see the downside; people who are comfortable on macro maps get to play those, and same with rush maps.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:57 am UTC

Game_boy wrote:
|Erasmus| wrote:Those maps look pretty terrible. I -really- like the one where the nearest third base is the gold right out in the middle of nowhere and with rocks guarding the damn thing. Doesn't look like fun at all. I don't think blizz even read their own forums... Everyone there is just asking why they won't add GSL maps or ICCup maps, and I have to agree... I don't know why we can't have maps like Bel'Shir beach or testbug or dual sight, or one or two more of the giant macro maps. I don't think I'd love those ones for TvZ, but I would rather them than stuff like slag pits or backwater gulch. [/rant]


The solution is a broader range of maps and many more vetos. I really don't see the downside; people who are comfortable on macro maps get to play those, and same with rush maps.


I agree.

As a side note, does anyone despise Force Field? I absolutely hate the ability. I frankly think it's flat-out overpowered... and yet, the entirety of Protoss tier 1 (and, really, tier 2 and even a good bit of tier 3) is balanced around having it. I use it because I like winning when I draw Protoss, but at the same time I almost feel dirty for doing so - when I win a 2v2 because my teammate feinted with 4 Reapers into an enemy's mineral line, and then we push in and force field their ramps to split their armies, it doesn't really feel like that was a win due to skill so much as abusing the hell out of a really overpowered ability.

Then again, I guess this is why the season 3 maps are tending towards one shared ramp rather than two separate ones.

I know Force Field can't be nerfed, or Protoss will get rolled by roach/ling all-ins and MM stim timing pushes... but it just seems like such a cheesy ability. I'd almost rather Force Field get removed and Hallucination made baseline and then buffed so that units will still autotarget hallucinations like regular units, even with detection.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Swivelguy » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:14 pm UTC

I sort of think forcefields should be killable (if you manually target them), having about 2x the HP of a barracks/gateway. The amount of damage that can be inflicted on a maxed army by 5 sentries with some built up energy is just ridiculous. Making them killable would stop FFs from doing OP things in the late game, while still allowing protoss to be safe from the timing pushes that FF is necessary to stop in the early game.

"Bring a massive unit and crush them" sounds fine on paper, until you try it. That only works with colossi because they can walk over infantry to get to the FF, thors or ultras will just be stuck behind, showing off their utterly useless pathfinding.

Holy shit, how I want thors to be able to walk over infantry like colossi can.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:23 pm UTC

Swivelguy wrote:Holy shit, how I want thors to be able to walk over infantry like colossi can.

Only if they leave smooshy bits behind...
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:04 pm UTC

What? A twelve story tall engine of destruction with feet the size of Olympic swimming pools should be able to walk over infantry? Nonsense.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:52 pm UTC

Swivelguy wrote:I sort of think forcefields should be killable (if you manually target them), having about 2x the HP of a barracks/gateway. The amount of damage that can be inflicted on a maxed army by 5 sentries with some built up energy is just ridiculous. Making them killable would stop FFs from doing OP things in the late game, while still allowing protoss to be safe from the timing pushes that FF is necessary to stop in the early game.

Try 500 hp. Or 1100 hp and they lose about 70 hp a second or something like that.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:28 pm UTC

Even at 500 HP, just bring another fully charged sentry and you have another 2000 HP worth of barrier you can plop down anyhow you want. Pretty much only Marines have the DPS to chew through that at that trade-off.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:03 pm UTC

:|
I guess it gives players the ability to break the force fields earlier than they normally would by doing an action (attacking it). It'd at least feel like you're attempting to do something about it other than staring at it sternly.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:22 pm UTC

As it stands, 3 sentries can keep a single force field up almost indefinitely. Each loses 5 energy per "cycle" of 45 seconds. So if they all start with at least 70 energy, that's (20/5)*45+45 = 225 seconds of perma-field.

I suspect that this is why 2-ramp 2v2 doesn't exist, because otherwise one protoss player could block the ramp of one enemy player while they both rush the 1 remaining player. Until the blocked player gets air and/or a massive unit and/or teleportation, they are out of the fight until their ally is dead...
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:28 pm UTC

Swivelguy wrote:I sort of think forcefields should be killable (if you manually target them), having about 2x the HP of a barracks/gateway. The amount of damage that can be inflicted on a maxed army by 5 sentries with some built up energy is just ridiculous. Making them killable would stop FFs from doing OP things in the late game, while still allowing protoss to be safe from the timing pushes that FF is necessary to stop in the early game.

"Bring a massive unit and crush them" sounds fine on paper, until you try it. That only works with colossi because they can walk over infantry to get to the FF, thors or ultras will just be stuck behind, showing off their utterly useless pathfinding.

Holy shit, how I want thors to be able to walk over infantry like colossi can.

Everyone knows you should drop the thors onto the forcefields... (and no, I don't think anyone knows that, but I'm not entirely sure how bad an idea it is, now that I think about it).

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby el_loco_avs » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:30 pm UTC

psion wrote::|
I guess it gives players the ability to break the force fields earlier than they normally would by doing an action (attacking it). It'd at least feel like you're attempting to do something about it other than staring at it sternly.



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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:36 am UTC

psion wrote::|
I guess it gives players the ability to break the force fields earlier than they normally would by doing an action (attacking it). It'd at least feel like you're attempting to do something about it other than staring at it sternly.

I suppose for every extra sentry that's still a Stalker or two that's a Zealot instead.

Maybe still allow the fields to overlap each other, but require sufficient pathing space to actually exist so you can't stop up a ramp as easily? Or it would at least be harder to do so? You'd still have to worry about placement and just tossing it half way up a ramp isn't automatic perfect block...

OH!

Make it shrink as you kill it.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:39 am UTC

Yakk wrote:As it stands, 3 sentries can keep a single force field up almost indefinitely. Each loses 5 energy per "cycle" of 45 seconds. So if they all start with at least 70 energy, that's (20/5)*45+45 = 225 seconds of perma-field.

I suspect that this is why 2-ramp 2v2 doesn't exist, because otherwise one protoss player could block the ramp of one enemy player while they both rush the 1 remaining player. Until the blocked player gets air and/or a massive unit and/or teleportation, they are out of the fight until their ally is dead...


They have lots of 2 ramp 2v2's, me and Double O do that to people all the time.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby llamanaru » Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:06 am UTC

How can I incorporate an early evo chamber into my builds? I just got dt rushed twice and then banshee rushed, each time I had no spores and I only got an overseer once against the dts but still lost to the followup push.

I want to work in a +1 upgrade into my BO. I normally go metabolic boost / baneling nest / lair against terran and metabolic boost / lair against protoss (not counting any gas units I need to make). Where do you think I should put the upgrade?

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:14 am UTC

I use the icefisher open, where I get double evo-chambers as soon as I lay down my lair (usually around 50 supply).

That said, ideally you would want to scout diligently and alter your build order when you see them teching to DTs/banshees. Which, if you're me, means that if someone cheeses you die.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby llamanaru » Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:28 am UTC

Scouting is good. But I'd rather not rely on being able to get a lucky ling past the other guys wall or a lucky sacrificial overlord. And I get cheesed with cloaked units enough that I think it's worth having a precautionary spore.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:31 am UTC

TvP Ling-Baneling style the way Morrow did it at MLG:
Spoiler:
14pool
15hatch w/ 2drones, if pylon, pull back.
15overlord
16queen
18 x2ling + gas
20/21hatch if the 15hatch was blocked
@92 gas start pulling drones
@100 gas metabolic boost
@95% metabolic boost, 3 drones on gas
@40 gas, evo chamber
@100 gas, melee attacks lv 1
@100% evo chamber, x3gas
@90 gas, evo chamber
@150 gas, carapace lv 1
@100 gas, lair
@20s lair, make bane nest.
@100% lair, overlord drops & speed, bane speed
@8-9 min mark, take 3rd and maybe macro hatch
Make infestation pit while making 5th & 6th gasses, while fully saturated at 3rd.
Pathogen glands when infestation pit completes
@31s Pathogen glands, begin infestor production


It's a BO someone drew up after watching a bunch of his TvPs. Even if you don't want the entire thing, I agree that you should be going +1 melee attack before lair if you want to invest in an evo (which is a good safe play).

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby llamanaru » Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:45 am UTC

That looks like a sexy build order. Thank you Erasmus.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:57 am UTC

llamanaru wrote:That looks like a sexy build order. Thank you Erasmus.

I was obsing a game of the guy who wrote that up (high diamond Z) against another high diamond diamond P and I must say, the army graph after the game was absurd. The P turtled and did his 200/200 deathball business, which resulted in him instantly losing his entire army to ling/bling drops, and the Z player instantly remaxing on ultra/ling. It was pretty brutal.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:51 pm UTC

llamanaru wrote:How can I incorporate an early evo chamber into my builds?


I don't get it.

If you want to incorporate an early evo... build an early evo.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:20 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Image

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Xanthir » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:28 pm UTC

So, I was playing The Dig and trying to get the Hard achievement (destroy 50 toss buildings). This is difficult, because the ramps are well-defended, and I started the mission before getting any air units, so I couldn't get long-range vision and hit the buildings with the laser drill either. Apparently some people have good enough micro to push up the ramp, but not me.

Then I realized I *did* have air units - they were just built by my SCVs instead of a Starport and were called "Barracks". I also had shit-tons of minerals, because The Dig is a really easy mission. So I floated 40 barracks over the protoss and gunned down about 70 buildings before they were all finally shot down. It was the most ridiculous sight I'd seen in a long time.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:03 pm UTC

Xanthir wrote: I also had shit-tons of minerals, because The Dig is a really easy mission.

Play this shit on Brutal :(.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Xeio » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:09 pm UTC

It's still easy, siege tanks own everything but immortal or colossus, and you can target those with the laser.

Hell, if you scout with a flying unit you can just start annihilating their base with the laser too.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby EvanED » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:17 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:It's still easy, siege tanks own everything but immortal or colossus, and you can target those with the laser.

Hell, if you scout with a flying unit you can just start annihilating their base with the laser too.

Agreed; there are "hard" missions that are rather harder than "The Dig" is on brutal.

You gotta take down the collossi; that's imperative. Otherwise they'll be able to see onto your high ground and then you'll just be torn apart by storms and such. I don't really remember the immortals causing that much of a problem to be honest, though I think I also had a couple bunkers w/ marines at each entrance, so maybe they were pretty critical. Or maybe I hit them with the lasers; I'm not sure. I do remember feeling that I actually needed to take the expansion rather than it being just some extra resources, though I could be wrong.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Xeio » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:23 pm UTC

EvanED wrote:You gotta take down the collossi; that's imperative. Otherwise they'll be able to see onto your high ground and then you'll just be torn apart by storms and such. I don't really remember the immortals causing that much of a problem to be honest, though I think I also had a couple bunkers w/ marines at each entrance, so maybe they were pretty critical. Or maybe I hit them with the lasers; I'm not sure. I do remember feeling that I actually needed to take the expansion rather than it being just some extra resources, though I could be wrong.
Usually I took down immortals because tanks aren't particularly effective against them (or they end up wasting volleys better served on other units). The only real issues I had were if zealots got within melee of the bunkers the tanks could splash them to death (similarly with archons), but as long as there weren't immortals to distract that usually didn't happen.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby llamanaru » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:24 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:
llamanaru wrote:How can I incorporate an early evo chamber into my builds?


I don't get it.

If you want to incorporate an early evo... build an early evo.

But I don't want it to just sit there wasted on the eventuality that I need spore crawlers. Thus why I want to put +1 something somewhere.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Swivelguy » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:50 pm UTC

Xanthir wrote:So, I was playing The Dig and trying to get the Hard achievement (destroy 50 toss buildings). This is difficult, because the ramps are well-defended, and I started the mission before getting any air units, so I couldn't get long-range vision and hit the buildings with the laser drill either. Apparently some people have good enough micro to push up the ramp, but not me.

Then I realized I *did* have air units - they were just built by my SCVs instead of a Starport and were called "Barracks". I also had shit-tons of minerals, because The Dig is a really easy mission. So I floated 40 barracks over the protoss and gunned down about 70 buildings before they were all finally shot down. It was the most ridiculous sight I'd seen in a long time.


Yep, that's how I did it too. If you focus on killing everything that shoots air, then on the pylons, you can actually just shut down their bases and it becomes really easy.
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Menacing Spike
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Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:25 pm UTC
Location: Fighting the Zombie.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:16 pm UTC

llamanaru wrote:
Ixtellor wrote:
llamanaru wrote:How can I incorporate an early evo chamber into my builds?


I don't get it.

If you want to incorporate an early evo... build an early evo.

But I don't want it to just sit there wasted on the eventuality that I need spore crawlers. Thus why I want to put +1 something somewhere.


Armour against +1 zealots, melee/ranged against everything else.

Game_boy
Posts: 1314
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:33 pm UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:33 pm UTC

You only need an early evo IF you scout a tech-heavy build (two gas and no expand by 6min) AND you're not getting a lair by the time cloaked banshees/DTs would arrive around 7-8min.

Don't get it blindly, or before the time that cloaked units could possibly arrive.
The Reaper wrote:Evolution is a really really really long run-on sentence.

achan1058
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:50 pm UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby achan1058 » Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:41 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:
Xanthir wrote: I also had shit-tons of minerals, because The Dig is a really easy mission.

Play this shit on Brutal :(.
It was still easy using 2 fact siege tanks and a few bunkers. Just drill colossus and immortals. I had no problems 1 basing this mission, except when I forgot missile turrets and had to rebuild some tanks afterwards.


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