Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

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Kain
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kain » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:22 pm UTC

achan1058 wrote:
Menacing Spike wrote:
Xanthir wrote: I also had shit-tons of minerals, because The Dig is a really easy mission.

Play this shit on Brutal :(.
It was still easy using 2 fact siege tanks and a few bunkers. Just drill colossus and immortals. I had no problems 1 basing this mission, except when I forgot missile turrets and had to rebuild some tanks afterwards.


likewise, the only problem I had on this mission on my brutal run-through was not noticing when I had lost a missile turret or two, and ended up hitting the drill for some splash damage killing the dropped units (that was pretty funny actually, if one imagines the siege tank commander's thoughts before firing...)
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby J the Ninja » Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:09 am UTC

I just played the second game this week where I got matched with a Zerg player who never built any units. They fast expand, throw down some spines, then just sit there. I'm over in my base doing a 3-gate fast expand, and then send my obs over to see 2 hatches, 4 queens, a few spines, and 2 lings. So I walk over my 12-15 or so doodz and it's gg. Wut? How do they plan to win if they aren't building any units at all in the first 5-7 mins?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:16 am UTC

J the Ninja wrote:I just played the second game this week where I got matched with a Zerg player who never built any units. They fast expand, throw down some spines, then just sit there. I'm over in my base doing a 3-gate fast expand, and then send my obs over to see 2 hatches, 4 queens, a few spines, and 2 lings. So I walk over my 12-15 or so doodz and it's gg. Wut? How do they plan to win if they aren't building any units at all in the first 5-7 mins?

They're zerg. That's how you play zerg. I mean, they did seem to miss the part where you scout, and if the opponent decides to move out, use all your larvae on stuff that should pop before they get there to kill you, but other than that, it's about right, really.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby mutestorm » Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:50 am UTC

I'm just gonna plug this; quora is a q&a site ive been making use of, and if you have any answers to give in the sc2 sections, please join in :D

http://www.quora.com/StarCraft-II-Strategy
http://www.quora.com/StarCraft-II

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:28 am UTC

J the Ninja wrote:I just played the second game this week where I got matched with a Zerg player who never built any units. They fast expand, throw down some spines, then just sit there. I'm over in my base doing a 3-gate fast expand, and then send my obs over to see 2 hatches, 4 queens, a few spines, and 2 lings. So I walk over my 12-15 or so doodz and it's gg. Wut? How do they plan to win if they aren't building any units at all in the first 5-7 mins?


It's the Spanishiwa build. Very respectable. What can't you hold with queens and spines? After the early game, you need queens anyway, you will have a great creep spread, the spines can be moved to your front line, and meanwhile you didn't need to mine gas or use up larvae for units, so you'll have a ton of drones while being completely safe.

They just played it wrong, spines and queens should easily hold 3-4gate rushes.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kain » Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:22 am UTC

Off topic a bit, but don't you just love/hate it when you are winning so thoroughly, you can do something silly, like proxy battlecruisers from the gold island, and the enemy quits before they even see one of them?
This seems to happen to me a bit in 3v3 (I generally go heavy marine when I roll terran, and in the games in which my allies don't want my extra vespene, I blow it on either banshees or bcs)
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:23 am UTC

Ixtellor wrote:
Yakk wrote:As it stands, 3 sentries can keep a single force field up almost indefinitely. Each loses 5 energy per "cycle" of 45 seconds. So if they all start with at least 70 energy, that's (20/5)*45+45 = 225 seconds of perma-field.

I suspect that this is why 2-ramp 2v2 doesn't exist, because otherwise one protoss player could block the ramp of one enemy player while they both rush the 1 remaining player. Until the blocked player gets air and/or a massive unit and/or teleportation, they are out of the fight until their ally is dead...


They have lots of 2 ramp 2v2's, me and Double O do that to people all the time.


Yeah, it's really dumb.

I guess I'm gonna be taking a break from SC2 again. 1v1 just isn't very fun, and 2v2 is just utterly broken. 2v2 really needs an upkeep system or something to make double all-ins have a significant penalty.

As it is, pretty much your only option is to pretty much do an all-in build yourself (assuming they're fast enough to get there before you can do shit like throw up 5 bunkers or 6 spine crawlers or boost out four sentries), which negates the advantage the defenders SHOULD get for stopping the all-in - a commanding economic advantage. As it is, the all-in attackers aren't really far behind economically if they play it right - they can just turn it into a contain, expand behind the contain, and end up economically even after a few minutes, or even ahead if they prevent the defenders from expanding.

I've won and lost too many games due to brainless "make tons of one unit" builds, and I don't really consider it to take any sort of skill, since it's largely just attack-moving after a certain point. If you're Terran, bring about three or four SCVs, plop bunkers down, and rally an endless supply of marines from 4-6rax. You can either maintain the contain and expand behind it, or if you have enough marines, you can probably force your way up anyone's ramp. It works really, really well with a teammate that can afford to sacrifice some lings or zealots to give vision. If the players have expanded, their expansions are forfeit and that'll put them at a huge economic disadvantage. If they haven't expanded, putting a turret or two near your mineral line for detection (in case they try something desperate like a nydus, DT drop, or cloakshees) and then expanding puts you hugely ahead. If it's a Terran and he gets tanks out, you can very likely just rush the damn tank and kill it, especially since one tank isn't gonna stop 30 marines (and he's very likely put it right up on the edge so it can get maximum range.) But then again, if you have 30 marines and he doesn't, it's probably safe to just rush the ramp and burn your way through it. Works even better if you have Banelings.

I dunno. I miss DOW2 a lot, but that game has so many balance issues it cripples the fun - Space Marines and Chaos are blatantly overpowered (Chaos is more just broken than overpowered, considering they have a major economic problem in late game in exchange for an overpowered midgame), so if you aren't playing one of those two (or maybe Eldar, which was strong but not really overpowered, last I checked) you have to work three times as hard for the same results.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby achan1058 » Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:52 am UTC

Beardhammer wrote:As it is, pretty much your only option is to pretty much do an all-in build yourself (assuming they're fast enough to get there before you can do shit like throw up 5 bunkers or 6 spine crawlers or boost out four sentries), which negates the advantage the defenders SHOULD get for stopping the all-in - a commanding economic advantage. As it is, the all-in attackers aren't really far behind economically if they play it right - they can just turn it into a contain, expand behind the contain, and end up economically even after a few minutes, or even ahead if they prevent the defenders from expanding.
Just to be devil's advocate. If the only safe builds are the aggressive "all-in"ish builds, wouldn't those builds be considered "normal", and anything deviating from it, such as FE, be economic cheese (like how fast double expand is economic cheese in 1v1)? And if such is the case, then it should be standard play to go these aggressive builds, and the game is still equal after the smoke's over. Besides, it should be normal that 1 person can't hold an attack vs 2 people, and that you need to coordination of 2 players to defend against a coordinated attack from 2 players.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:06 am UTC

achan1058 wrote:Just to be devil's advocate. If the only safe builds are the aggressive "all-in"ish builds, wouldn't those builds be considered "normal", and anything deviating from it, such as FE, be economic cheese (like how fast double expand is economic cheese in 1v1)? And if such is the case, then it should be standard play to go these aggressive builds, and the game is still equal after the smoke's over. Besides, it should be normal that 1 person can't hold an attack vs 2 people, and that you need to coordination of 2 players to defend against a coordinated attack from 2 players.


Come now, the only real strategies are long macro games, the rest if for cheesing scum!

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby fjafjan » Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:14 am UTC

Game_boy wrote:
J the Ninja wrote:I just played the second game this week where I got matched with a Zerg player who never built any units. They fast expand, throw down some spines, then just sit there. I'm over in my base doing a 3-gate fast expand, and then send my obs over to see 2 hatches, 4 queens, a few spines, and 2 lings. So I walk over my 12-15 or so doodz and it's gg. Wut? How do they plan to win if they aren't building any units at all in the first 5-7 mins?


It's the Spanishiwa build. Very respectable. What can't you hold with queens and spines? After the early game, you need queens anyway, you will have a great creep spread, the spines can be moved to your front line, and meanwhile you didn't need to mine gas or use up larvae for units, so you'll have a ton of drones while being completely safe.

They just played it wrong, spines and queens should easily hold 3-4gate rushes.

The Ice-Fisher build, also known as the Spanishiwa build is not as you describe it.

Basically you should go 16 hatch, 15 pool. You keep droning up but when you spawning pool hatches you move down two or three drones, depending on what your scouting drone has seen, to throw down spine crawlers. You also get two or four lings. You don't get any gas until you're at almost 40 supply, then you throw down all four extractors. If your opponent early expands you simply take a third. But if he goes for a 4 gate, which this build was basically designed to counter, you build plenty of slow lings and just tries to defend with your queens and spines. Transfusing is key, you should have at least one extra queen, up to three or four, depending on how late the push is. If the push doesn't break you, you've got a massive economic advantage. You can afford the extra queens from the oodles of extra minerals you will have. Then go for a pretty fast hive with all that gas you will suddenly hive (I mean lair first obv). Typically Spanishiwa will continue to play defensively but harass mercilessly, using burrowed infestors, nydus ling drops or just ling run-bys.


So a "no unit" build is not Spanishiwa style, a very late gas, queen and spine crawler heavy opening is. But slow lings are important because they have very high dps.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:58 pm UTC

Full description of the icefisher open. It's my preferred strategy, and it's working out pretty well for me. I'm sure it'd work better if I could squeeze out more than 30 APM.

Edit: Speaking of the Icefisher Open, I've gotten kind of bored with it. It's too passive for my tastes. I was looking at the Roach expand, but roaches piss me off* so it didn't interest me much. Does anyone know of a similar build using speedlings? I like speedlings.

*Please don't ask me to explain my beef with Roaches. I don't know what it is. I just don't like them. Plus every time I tried this against the AI I got crushed by immortals and marauders.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby fjafjan » Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:10 pm UTC

I think if you think the Ice Fisher is too passive you should watch Spanishiwas stream sometme. The way he plays it he doesn't leave his opponent alone for long. Indeed I think his play style is the Scariest ZvP I have seen among any player, he utilizes so many harassment methods to massacre his opponents economy.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kag » Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:31 pm UTC

Spanishiwa took a week off of streaming because he was trying out a new build and people complained about him losing. It was some kind of macro hatch thing, looked pretty cool.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby fjafjan » Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:51 pm UTC

Kag wrote:Spanishiwa took a week off of streaming because he was trying out a new build and people complained about him losing. It was some kind of macro hatch thing, looked pretty cool.


Oh. Well there are certainly replays and VODs of his up on the web, so there is stuff to watch. But I am glad to hear he is trying out macro hatches, seems like Zerg being short on Larvae is a strange problem when the "factory" is not that expensive and has a very high rate of production.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:40 pm UTC

fjafjan wrote:I think if you think the Ice Fisher is too passive you should watch Spanishiwas stream sometme. The way he plays it he doesn't leave his opponent alone for long. Indeed I think his play style is the Scariest ZvP I have seen among any player, he utilizes so many harassment methods to massacre his opponents economy.

Oh, I've watched the shit out of some Spanishiwa, and he's an awesome player, but he's also on the defensive for the entire early game and a chunk of the mid game. The whole point of the Icefisher Open is to passively build up economy for the early game, and it does a great job of it, but I want to take the fight to my opponent. I want to expand behind early pressure. Stuff like that.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:25 pm UTC

If you want to be aggressive then you'll have to wing it. There's no way anyone could give you a build of "be aggressive until X." You'll have to use/develop your own intuition. I will say that things like managing gas income and injects are generally more important than what you do with the units you build. Let 10 lings die a pointless death before you miss an inject.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Sun Jun 26, 2011 3:06 pm UTC

They have aggression builds that give you a good idea of how and when to be aggressive, I was trying a roach-based one last night. I was just hoping someone knew of one that didn't require a Roach Warren.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:15 pm UTC

TheBanana mentioned the failed 6pool build but... You can't really pressure with lings in any match up. They're killing machines, not siege units.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:32 pm UTC

Spambot5546 wrote: I was looking at the Roach expand, but roaches piss me off* so it didn't interest me much. Does anyone know of a similar build using speedlings? I like speedlings.

*Please don't ask me to explain my beef with Roaches. I don't know what it is. I just don't like them. Plus every time I tried this against the AI I got crushed by immortals and marauders.


You need to learn to love roaches... they are just 1/2 price stalkers. Mass roaches is the scariest thing a zerg can do to toss. If toss goes zealots, you kite them, if they go stalkers you win by attrition. If you keep toss under pressure he can never afford colossi. Or if he doesn't have multi robo's, you can just out attrition him against immortals. (or just throw a few lings in front to absorb the damage)

Roach = cheapest best unit in the game IMHO, followed by Marauders.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:36 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:Roach = cheapest best unit in the game IMHO, followed by Marauders.


Marines would like to have a word with you.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kag » Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:16 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:If toss goes zealots, you kite them, if they go stalkers you win by attrition.


If they do either of those + some sentries, you die.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:30 pm UTC

Kag wrote:
Ixtellor wrote:If toss goes zealots, you kite them, if they go stalkers you win by attrition.


If they do either of those + some sentries, you die.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kag » Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:37 pm UTC

Okay. What does mass roach actually do about FF?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:36 pm UTC

I've been experimenting with a 7-pool open. I'm two-for-two so far in causing enough damage to expand and go into the mid game strong. Plus I feel like this makes for great practice for my micro and my macro, since I have to focus on so many things at once to execute the play-style.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:01 pm UTC

Kag wrote:Okay. What does mass roach actually do about FF?

Well you're asking me to generalize as well, but I assume you know about burrow. Roaches vs a usual gateway mix isn't a hopeless fight. If it were protoss would never lose a zvp.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:04 pm UTC

Kag wrote:Okay. What does mass roach actually do about FF?


1 shot the sentries... with some minor target fire or just back up.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kag » Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:19 pm UTC

I thought the idea was to put FF in the middle of the roach ball to slice out a chunk of the army that can't do either of those things effectively, but yeah burrow beats it clean.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:31 am UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:
Ixtellor wrote:Roach = cheapest best unit in the game IMHO, followed by Marauders.


Marines would like to have a word with you.


Roaches are generally more cost-efficient in the presence of AOE. Marines crumple to tank fire, colossi, psionic storm, and even fungal growth. Using Marines against their intended counters requires good stutterstep micro (which really should be removed, since it basically allows Marines to counter their counters.) Roaches, on the other hand, move amazingly fast on creep, have good range, excellent burst damage (lousy sustained damage), excellent armor and HP for 75/25/2, and with burrow micro can prove to be very difficult to kill without detection. It takes several colossi to really impact mass roaches, roaches can trivially outproduce intended counters like immortals and thors (are thors really a designed counter to roaches?), and they can generally take on any ground unit mix except maybe pure mass stimrauder.

Kag wrote:Okay. What does mass roach actually do about FF?


Tunneling Claws. There's a Zerg build specifically designed to counter 3gate sentry expand. I don't know the timings or build order, but the general concept is to harass the toss with roaches while tunneling claws is going and force them to burn energy on forcefields. Eventually you push one last time to force them to use more force fields, then tunnel under the FF, pop out and attack. You send in speedlings after the roaches cleared out the sentries. Then again, I don't know why you wouldn't just not bother until TC is done, tunnel under, kill sentries, then send in speedlings.

Forge FE could probably be countered with roaches as well, unless they have a lot of cannons. All you need to do is make a hole wide enough for the speedlings to get in.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:27 pm UTC

Beardhammer wrote:
Menacing Spike wrote:
Ixtellor wrote:Roach = cheapest best unit in the game IMHO, followed by Marauders.


Marines would like to have a word with you.


Roaches are generally more cost-efficient in the presence of AOE. Marines crumple to tank fire, colossi, psionic storm, and even fungal growth.


I can't seem to find it, but a relatively recent daily on mass marines in TvP showed that it stands up to even chargelots + HTs, even with great storms, because AoE costs gas and marines don't. The HTs killed a hundred waves of marines but the gas ran out on the last one and ultimately T had map control to deny bases.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:20 pm UTC

Game_boy wrote:I can't seem to find it, but a relatively recent daily on mass marines in TvP showed that it stands up to even chargelots + HTs, even with great storms, because AoE costs gas and marines don't. The HTs killed a hundred waves of marines but the gas ran out on the last one and ultimately T had map control to deny bases.


Indeed.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby mike-l » Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:13 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:One fully charged OC + a gold expo? Woo, that's about 35 free marines.


You and I have very different definitions of free. Unless you mean free as in speech, or as in from custody.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:38 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:
Menacing Spike wrote:One fully charged OC + a gold expo? Woo, that's about 35 free marines.


You and I have very different definitions of free. Unless you mean free as in speech, or as in from custody.


I think Idra is quoted as saying marines are free.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby achan1058 » Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:25 am UTC

All this talk about marines being free (of gas at least) reminds me of this poster:

Think Green, Go Marine

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:29 am UTC

Let's say your opponent has rushed in with some Zerglings. Let's say you had your wall up and the lings are stymied, forced to wait outside your base and try to keep you from expanding. What do you think you absolutely SHOULD NOT DO? Lift off your barracks, that's what!

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Seriously, I'm pretty sure that cost him the game. Especially since he had about twice my APM, so I'm thinking the guy was probably a decent player.

Edit: I just checked and he's ranked 2 in his gold league in 1v1 and diamond in 4v4. And I beat him. Whoo!
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby mutestorm » Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:39 am UTC

Kag wrote:Okay. What does mass roach actually do about FF?


Tunneling Claws. There's a Zerg build specifically designed to counter 3gate sentry expand. I don't know the timings or build order, but the general concept is to harass the toss with roaches while tunneling claws is going and force them to burn energy on forcefields. Eventually you push one last time to force them to use more force fields, then tunnel under the FF, pop out and attack. You send in speedlings after the roaches cleared out the sentries. Then again, I don't know why you wouldn't just not bother until TC is done, tunnel under, kill sentries, then send in speedlings.

Forge FE could probably be countered with roaches as well, unless they have a lot of cannons. All you need to do is make a hole wide enough for the speedlings to get in.[/quote]

so they cant forcefield a wall for the speedlings/split units/make a forcefield cave to focus lings/i dont know, ff is ridiculously good.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:54 am UTC

The counter-argument is: without FFs, Toss would die to any roach-ling pressure before 10min. So you need to kill sentries, early, and it's OK to trade many lings or roaches if you can do that. Baiting FFs from them without attacking amounts to the same thing: reducing FF count for your midgame roach pressure.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:26 am UTC

mutestorm wrote:
Kag wrote:Okay. What does mass roach actually do about FF?


Tunneling Claws. There's a Zerg build specifically designed to counter 3gate sentry expand. I don't know the timings or build order, but the general concept is to harass the toss with roaches while tunneling claws is going and force them to burn energy on forcefields. Eventually you push one last time to force them to use more force fields, then tunnel under the FF, pop out and attack. You send in speedlings after the roaches cleared out the sentries. Then again, I don't know why you wouldn't just not bother until TC is done, tunnel under, kill sentries, then send in speedlings.

Forge FE could probably be countered with roaches as well, unless they have a lot of cannons. All you need to do is make a hole wide enough for the speedlings to get in.


so they cant forcefield a wall for the speedlings/split units/make a forcefield cave to focus lings/i dont know, ff is ridiculously good.[/quote]

Roaches just casually tunnel under the wall, making FF worthless against them. Plus you aren't likely to have detectors if you're doing 3gate sentry expand, and if you're doing forge FE, you have a physical wall and tunneling under isn't an option.

The idea is you harass and force some force fields while waiting on tunneling claws. A toss player that knows what's happening (I'd recommend getting hallucination if your robo's being delayed by an expo) would presumably throw a bunch of FF up anyway to stop the lings from getting in, knowing the sentries will get picked off by the roaches.

The roaches are what kill the fighting units, but the lings are the real danger because they're what kill the probes and make it difficult for reinforcements to rally. At any rate, I haven't seen it done, just heard about it. It's designed to specifically counter 3gate expand.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:29 pm UTC

Speedlots, speedlots, nothing but speedlots

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Jesse » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:36 pm UTC

Grats. I really want to start playing more and actually ranking up, but I never seem to have the time, between watching every GSL, helping run a guild in WoW and having a fiancee who lves in India I just never seem to get the time. Might have to start scheduling in an hour every night.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:38 pm UTC

Pylon -> Gateway -> Pylon -> Assimilator -> Cybernetics (warp) -> Pylon (as needed) -> Gateway -> Citadel -> Gateway -> Charge -> Gateway?
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

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