Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:46 pm UTC

Nothing so sophisticated. My build involves being constantly supply blocked, building more gateways than I need, and needing to wait for half a minute after the citadel finishes to be able to research charge.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:54 pm UTC

Hmm. I was reading an interesting one on "armor 2/3 zealots vs terran".

It also recommended phoenixes for scouting/dropship/banshee denial (and forge->cannon to detect them).
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kag » Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:48 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:Speedlots, speedlots, nothing but speedlots


An appropriate number of speedlots will beat anything.

Yes, even banshees.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:02 pm UTC

Ah, I didn't notice it was a 3v3 division. :) Yes, speedlot spam will provide your allies with a serious contribution.
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:13 pm UTC

Kag wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:Speedlots, speedlots, nothing but speedlots


An appropriate number of speedlots will beat anything.

Yes, even banshees.


Indeed. I beat mass voidrays with speedlots.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby achan1058 » Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:15 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:
Kag wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:Speedlots, speedlots, nothing but speedlots


An appropriate number of speedlots will beat anything.

Yes, even banshees.


Indeed. I beat mass voidrays with speedlots.
How about annoying Terrans who float buildings?

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby EvanED » Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:16 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:Nothing so sophisticated. My build involves being constantly supply blocked, building more gateways than I need, and needing to wait for half a minute after the citadel finishes to be able to research charge.

You jerk, you stole my build.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:35 pm UTC

achan1058 wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:
Kag wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:Speedlots, speedlots, nothing but speedlots


An appropriate number of speedlots will beat anything.

Yes, even banshees.


Indeed. I beat mass voidrays with speedlots.
How about annoying Terrans who float buildings?


That's what my teammates are for.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:11 pm UTC

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmes ... ge=71#1413

Thorzain will not attend any more MLGs due to bad organisation and specifically not being given any time to eat or for breaks.

Very sad since I mostly watched MLG Columbus for Thorzain.

Note that even though he got 9th at Columbus the stupid favoured seeding* means he still isn't seeded 1-16 and hence will be in the huge Open bracket again.

*Those seeded 1-16 play far fewer games and at worst can finish 24th of 256, even if they lose about twenty games in a row
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:17 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:That's what my teammates are for.


"Guys, I make colossi/immortals; please make marines and vikings/corruptors for anti air".
"Fine."
"Ok."

I repell attack with colossi, allies being fucking useless. Later, ennemies counter with carriers and BCs.
I look at my allies: tanks, thors, ultras, roaches.

Counting on your teammates is not for the wise.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:05 am UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:That's what my teammates are for.


"Guys, I make colossi/immortals; please make marines and vikings/corruptors for anti air".
"Fine."
"Ok."

I repell attack with colossi, allies being fucking useless. Later, ennemies counter with carriers and BCs.
I look at my allies: tanks, thors, ultras, roaches.

Counting on your teammates is not for the wise.


Well, since lifting off means losing all SCVs, units, add-ons and supply depots, it doesn't really matter. It's a nuisance at most.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby J the Ninja » Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:22 am UTC

Game_boy wrote:
Beardhammer wrote:
Menacing Spike wrote:
Ixtellor wrote:Roach = cheapest best unit in the game IMHO, followed by Marauders.


Marines would like to have a word with you.


Roaches are generally more cost-efficient in the presence of AOE. Marines crumple to tank fire, colossi, psionic storm, and even fungal growth.


I can't seem to find it, but a relatively recent daily on mass marines in TvP showed that it stands up to even chargelots + HTs, even with great storms, because AoE costs gas and marines don't. The HTs killed a hundred waves of marines but the gas ran out on the last one and ultimately T had map control to deny bases.



This. I just lost a match where I had a terran contained to his starting area. Of course, this is delta quadrant, so he could keep 2 bases going even with his main mined out pretty easily, since the map basically has 2 naturals. He eventually broke it with a shitton of marines. I had....I think...5 Nexus up at one point, with mining going on at 2-3 of them? I built cannons and threw chargelots at him, but that didn't do it, and there was too much gas cost and tech structures to keep alive to throw HTs and Colossi at him until he died. I just couldn't stop the wave in the end.

MARINES OP YO

EDIT:

Side note 1: Khaydarin Amulet could've turned the tide, since it was mostly marine-viking but I didn't have time to warp in HTs and wait for them to charge up. I would've had it researched by then had it still been in the game. I still don't understand why it was removed. I thought it would've been a better balance change to make HTs always start with 75 energy

Side note 2: How the hell is delta quadrant still in the ladder list? *goes to check if there were worse maps he has veto'd*
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kag » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:52 am UTC

J the Ninja wrote:I still don't understand why it was removed. I thought it would've been a better balance change to make HTs always start with 75 energy


iirc it's because it lets protoss reactively defend drops with relative ease, which does seem kind of silly.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby J the Ninja » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:03 am UTC

Kag wrote:
J the Ninja wrote:I still don't understand why it was removed. I thought it would've been a better balance change to make HTs always start with 75 energy


iirc it's because it lets protoss reactively defend drops with relative ease, which does seem kind of silly.


Thinking about it while I ate dinner, I think the fact the HTs come in through warp gates, and thus can be trained quickly was the reason. With starting energy of 75, you can basically drop a psi storm anywhere on the map you have power in under 10 seconds, so long as you have 150 gas and a warpgate that isn't on cooldown.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:28 am UTC

J the Ninja wrote:MARINES OP YO


MAKIN' SENTRIES IS HARD MAN

Seriously, sentries would've ended it. Marines can't hit the colossi or HTs if they're boxed in with FF and Guardian Shield makes Marine damage output take a nosedive.

Stutterstep micro is definitely too effective, though.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby J the Ninja » Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:02 am UTC

This was last-ditch fighting. No time for HTs or sentries to charge psi-storm gaurdian shield. Those moves were working quite well most of the game. I was massacreing his marines until it came down to the fact that everything I could do either costs gas (which I couldn't get fast enough) or was chargelots, who get evaporated because they're melee and marines aren't.

On a more amazing note, you all know the protoss desperation move where they make a bunch of DTs and pray? This is what we all hope will happen:
DT Hail Mary.zip
(34.44 KiB) Downloaded 20 times


4 DTs wipe out his attacking force, then I make 4 more, all 8 right-click-move into the mineral line, all the workers evaporate in seconds, then they go on to wreck his base, allowing me to suddenly get ahead in eco, pretty much for good. He gives up at that point.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:09 am UTC

J the Ninja wrote:This was last-ditch fighting. No time for HTs or sentries to charge psi-storm gaurdian shield. Those moves were working quite well most of the game. I was massacreing his marines until it came down to the fact that everything I could do either costs gas (which I couldn't get fast enough) or was chargelots, who get evaporated because they're melee and marines aren't.

On a more amazing note, you all know the protoss desperation move where they make a bunch of DTs and pray? This is what we all hope will happen:
DT Hail Mary.zip


4 DTs wipe out his attacking force, then I make 4 more, all 8 right-click-move into the mineral line, all the workers evaporate in seconds, then they go on to wreck his base, allowing me to suddenly get ahead in eco, pretty much for good. He gives up at that point.


You couldn't just chain-force field a chokepoint? Splitting the rines with force fields will whittle down his numbers while giving your other sentries and HTs time to juice up. FF will also prevent the colossi from being targeted by the rines. If he had vikings, you shoulda had either void rays (chargelot+void ray+colossi is lethal) or blink stalkers.

DTs and Bancheese are really, really good vs Terran when used right. Never send in the whole group... just send in one. Force him to scan and start moving away before the scan hits. Repeat until he's out of scan energy. If he's smart he'll be building turrets everywhere - this is fine, they're 100 minerals a pop and he just blew all his energy on scans instead of MULEs, too. If possible, continue poking at areas that aren't covered by turrets - this works best with bancheese. If you're using bancheese, just run away and hover them behind his base somewhere out of the way, and then bring them back in to peck at outlying targets when he's busy elsewhere.

I've won a few games doing that, simply because they got so frustrated they refused to put up with it anymore. It's why I consider Bancheese to be a little bit OP (they're basically flying Dark Templar.)

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:37 pm UTC

Beardhammer wrote:
J the Ninja wrote:This was last-ditch fighting. No time for HTs or sentries to charge psi-storm gaurdian shield. Those moves were working quite well most of the game. I was massacreing his marines until it came down to the fact that everything I could do either costs gas (which I couldn't get fast enough) or was chargelots, who get evaporated because they're melee and marines aren't.

On a more amazing note, you all know the protoss desperation move where they make a bunch of DTs and pray? This is what we all hope will happen:
DT Hail Mary.zip


4 DTs wipe out his attacking force, then I make 4 more, all 8 right-click-move into the mineral line, all the workers evaporate in seconds, then they go on to wreck his base, allowing me to suddenly get ahead in eco, pretty much for good. He gives up at that point.


You couldn't just chain-force field a chokepoint? Splitting the rines with force fields will whittle down his numbers while giving your other sentries and HTs time to juice up. FF will also prevent the colossi from being targeted by the rines. If he had vikings, you shoulda had either void rays (chargelot+void ray+colossi is lethal) or blink stalkers.

DTs and Bancheese are really, really good vs Terran when used right. Never send in the whole group... just send in one. Force him to scan and start moving away before the scan hits. Repeat until he's out of scan energy. If he's smart he'll be building turrets everywhere - this is fine, they're 100 minerals a pop and he just blew all his energy on scans instead of MULEs, too. If possible, continue poking at areas that aren't covered by turrets - this works best with bancheese. If you're using bancheese, just run away and hover them behind his base somewhere out of the way, and then bring them back in to peck at outlying targets when he's busy elsewhere.

I've won a few games doing that, simply because they got so frustrated they refused to put up with it anymore. It's why I consider Bancheese to be a little bit OP (they're basically flying Dark Templar.)


The proper response to cloak harass is to wall off (against DTs) and immediately get ghosts. Turrets may be good to get detection at key points when moving out, but there should be like 2-3 of them in total. That way you actually have useful tech and units that do hurting as a result.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby BlackSails » Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:12 pm UTC

Tbh, its hard to imagine a terran army composition against protoss that is not vastly enhanced by ghosts, so you should just always get ghosts.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:25 pm UTC

Enemy managed to economy up (at least one of his allies was dead). He had of all things a mother-ship escorted by a supply-cap of stalkers.

And we had lost most of everything in our last push.

They counter attack with the above army on an ally of mine, who is overrun. I tried mass psi-storm on it, but the mothership managed to black hole my templars before more than a few got off. Gah.

However, we'd had an observer with them, and it hadn't died. He .. had no detection. And I had like 6 gateways.

I warp in 6 DTs and head towards the army. It blinks up my wall and into my main base (well, my original probe line, which ... had 2 cannons and 2 gateways, and nothing else).

DTs turn around. Another 4-5 DTs warp in.

I kill the entire enemy army. The power graph is just funny -- my graph goes up a bit (from the DT spawn), and then his graph just plummets.

Then the ally that was wiped out happens to have some infestors left. We neural parasite the fleeing mothership and overrun his main base with our now rebuilt army and his mothership...
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby el_loco_avs » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:07 am UTC

Ok. So I know I suck because I've just started playing. Just got my 25th win, fairly easily and am now a top 20 bronze player w000 :mrgreen:

What confuses me is that I beat a player with 200+ wins so easily. I mean. What? Walloff.... couple marines... lots of nothing... then after getting blingbusted you send in the banshees that were already expected and actually *scouted*. And keep building them....

I don't get it. I hope I've improved beyond the point i am now after a 50 more games :shock:
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby EdgarJPublius » Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:14 am UTC

Here's an interesting game I just played (I'm the zerg player)

I've noticed the early pseudo-proxy factory in other games and it doesn't really make sense to me. I suppose it's normally for proxy banshees or somesuch? Why lift off as soon as I spot it instead of at least waiting for some 'lings to show up? Why not move it behind the wall? For that matter, why not just build it behind the wall in the first place? At least that way you could build a tank or two and keep up appearances.

Spoiler:
By the time I noticed anything was amiss, when I broke through the wall and there was nothing but supply depots, He already had a BC out.
In retrospect, I can see the warning signs that something was hinky, and I'll know what to look for in the future in terms of early starport hijinks.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kain » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:01 am UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:Here's an interesting game I just played (I'm the zerg player)

I've noticed the early pseudo-proxy factory in other games and it doesn't really make sense to me. I suppose it's normally for proxy banshees or somesuch? Why lift off as soon as I spot it instead of at least waiting for some 'lings to show up? Why not move it behind the wall? For that matter, why not just build it behind the wall in the first place? At least that way you could build a tank or two and keep up appearances.

Spoiler:
By the time I noticed anything was amiss, when I broke through the wall and there was nothing but supply depots, He already had a BC out.
In retrospect, I can see the warning signs that something was hinky, and I'll know what to look for in the future in terms of early starport hijinks.


Just a quick aside, after watching that replay I have to ask what your goal was with the second and third baneling+ling attacks. It seemed like you were intent on killing the barracks and bunkers, when it would probably have been much more useful to simply run past and kill off the workers. Meanwhile, that first attack looked like it should have been able to kill off at least half of his workers, but you let the scvs get a surround on the lings. Don't do that. Remember, baneling busting is a commitment.

Anyways, a more general thing: you probably should think about getting a second queen early, possibly before the lair upgrade (especially if you consider going hydras often, as the second queen can help you spread creep). If not before the lair, certainly before the burrow tech (which really wouldn't have benefited any of the units you had then, or were apparently planning on building).
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby el_loco_avs » Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:35 am UTC

el_loco_avs wrote:Ok. So I know I suck because I've just started playing. Just got my 25th win, fairly easily and am now a top 20 bronze player w000 :mrgreen:

What confuses me is that I beat a player with 200+ wins so easily. I mean. What? Walloff.... couple marines... lots of nothing... then after getting blingbusted you send in the banshees that were already expected and actually *scouted*. And keep building them....

I don't get it. I hope I've improved beyond the point i am now after a 50 more games :shock:



wait it's just the terran players.hmmm. I keep losing to other Zerg. :shock:
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:01 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:Here's an interesting game I just played (I'm the zerg player)

I've noticed the early pseudo-proxy factory in other games and it doesn't really make sense to me. I suppose it's normally for proxy banshees or somesuch? Why lift off as soon as I spot it instead of at least waiting for some 'lings to show up? Why not move it behind the wall? For that matter, why not just build it behind the wall in the first place? At least that way you could build a tank or two and keep up appearances.

Spoiler:
By the time I noticed anything was amiss, when I broke through the wall and there was nothing but supply depots, He already had a BC out.
In retrospect, I can see the warning signs that something was hinky, and I'll know what to look for in the future in terms of early starport hijinks.


I watched the replay, and you're... terrible.

In your league you can win games with no strategy at all, you just need to macro correctly.

Your build: 8 OL, 12 pool, 13 OL, 18 queen, 18 (6 zerglings), 17 gas, 16 evo, 15 spine, 17 baneling nest, 16 gas, 20 (a ton of zerglings), ...
I facepalmed continuously through your opening, especially the evo and lack of hatch.

Then he easily defended your bust (with only one rax I may add, a decent player would be two) and was 30 supply to your 19. You had no expansion. You were dead. You never built many drones after that. You were on 20 at the 10 minute mark and that's also when you STARTED your hatch. Hatch should go down within the first 2 minutes or you are behind!

Since he didn't build a second rax ever, you caught up in supply. But you made only zerglings instead of drones. Then you fail-busted him two more times until you were DEAD dead DEAD. Also if he had even one tank by the ELEVEN minute mark you wouldn't have done any damage at all.

The BCs are an irrelevant distraction. You did not die due to those, you didn't die to anything your opponent did at all. Do NOT focus your practice on "dealing with starport hijinks". You need a standard build order and then make a ton of drones. That way you could smash this guy whether he had BCs or not, you'd have double or triple the economy by the 10min mark.

DO THIS: 9 OL, 14 Pool, 15 Hatch

Produce as many drones as you possibly can. Don't make more than 4-6 zerglings in the early game if you can possibly avoid it. You can get gas and speed later. Your drone count stalled at 20 but should be more like 40-50 on 3 bases at the 10 minute mark. Cut the evo chamber or spine unless you scout banshee/all-in respectively. The standard composition against Terran is ling -> ling/baneling -> ling/baneling/muta after about 12min Try to contain Terran to 1 or 2 bases while you get a third base up before 10min. You will already be vastly ahead if your opponents are as bad as I saw in the replay.
Last edited by Game_boy on Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:39 pm UTC, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:28 pm UTC

Game_boy wrote:
EdgarJPublius wrote:Here's an interesting game I just played (I'm the zerg player)

I've noticed the early pseudo-proxy factory in other games and it doesn't really make sense to me. I suppose it's normally for proxy banshees or somesuch? Why lift off as soon as I spot it instead of at least waiting for some 'lings to show up? Why not move it behind the wall? For that matter, why not just build it behind the wall in the first place? At least that way you could build a tank or two and keep up appearances.

Spoiler:
By the time I noticed anything was amiss, when I broke through the wall and there was nothing but supply depots, He already had a BC out.
In retrospect, I can see the warning signs that something was hinky, and I'll know what to look for in the future in terms of early starport hijinks.


I watched the replay, and you're... terrible.

In your league you can win games with no strategy at all, you just need to macro correctly.

Your build: 8 OL, 12 pool, 13 OL, 18 queen, 18 (6 zerglings), 17 gas, 16 evo, 15 spine, 17 baneling nest, 16 gas, 20 (a ton of zerglings), ...

Then he easily defended your bust (with only one rax I may add, a decent player would be two) and was 30 supply to your 19. You had no expansion. You were dead.


Pretty much any 1 base Zerg play is an all-in. I don't really see how attempting a Baneling bust would've been more productive than pushing with Roaches, especially if he was doing something cheesy like a Battlecruiser rush. Five Roaches with speedlings in tow could easily squash anything like that.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:37 pm UTC

Beardhammer wrote:Pretty much any 1 base Zerg play is an all-in. I don't really see how attempting a Baneling bust would've been more productive than pushing with Roaches, especially if he was doing something cheesy like a Battlecruiser rush. Five Roaches with speedlings in tow could easily squash anything like that.


I hit reply too soon and have edited my post. You need to go 15 hatch at the latest and build more than 20 drones all game, that's the top priority for improvement.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:45 pm UTC

Advice I got on zerg was "zerg doesn't build units just to sit around: zerg builds potential to build units, and scouts so that the units are built before the enemy arrives".

As your potential to build units isn't unbounded (and it can get expensive), you build some units as well.

When you attack, naturally you build lots of units.

So you should have zerglings scattered along attack paths, others checking out possible enemy expos, overlords along air approach routes, and more hatcheries (at least +1) than the enemy has CC's or nexuses (because they are both resources and units-in-waiting/unit production). And creep that spreads along attack paths (for vision and mobility).

Zerg is the only race that could justify having 1000 gas in the bank as a good tactic: because they are working on their spire, and that 1000 gas is 10 mutalisks, it just doesn't know it yet.

Then again, I'm no zerg player, and I'm not good enough to give real good advice. The above advice (have a standard build) is a good one. I've heard that practicing against an "easy" computer is a good way to get a build down -- the easy computer won't distract you, and you can focus on "doing the build", so it becomes second nature and "low brain load". Then you can practice harrassing while "doing the build", and responding to opponents change of strat.

I've played against zerg. I've built the best army to defeat what they had in the field, won the battle, then lost before I managed to get to the hatchery because my left over troops where the worst possible army against what he built on my way over.
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

Last edited by JHVH on Fri Oct 23, 4004 BCE 6:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:48 pm UTC

Game_boy wrote:You were dead.

Beardhammer wrote:Pretty much any 1 base Zerg play is an all-in.

Bronze league plays an entirely different game. You can't apply the rules of higher level play to it.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:56 pm UTC

psion wrote:
Game_boy wrote:You were dead.

Beardhammer wrote:Pretty much any 1 base Zerg play is an all-in.

Bronze league plays an entirely different game. You can't apply the rules of higher level play to it.


You can, because their rushes are poorly executed enough so that you can do a standard build (pool-first, 3-rax expand, 3-gate robo expand) and always win whether they rush or not. If you survive to 10mins with constant worker production and 2 bases you should be able to 1A, not even look at the fight and win.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby EdgarJPublius » Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:46 pm UTC

Eh, as I said before, I'm not over-interested in getting better, I primarily play with RL friends of similar skill so 'getting better' is counter-productive to 'having fun' I ladder to pass the time.
I just thought the battle-cruiser rush was a bold play, I've never seen anything quite like it before.

That said, I recognize I made many mistakes during this game, I've been playing with my BO and this game was played at like, two in the morning. My normal BO is a somewhat more conventional roach+expand and the second rush would have been 5-7 roach+ slings (I also would have expanded somewhere in there, not sure it would have been as fast as two minutes, but easily within the first five). I've been playing with Baneling based attacks against walled-up Terran, but when the first zerglings showed his wall to be weak (plus that factory floating around, seriously, what's up with that?), I got over-confident and sloppy.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:55 pm UTC

So you consciously choose not to make workers constantly like you should? It's such a tiny thing separating you from actually being good.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:05 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:Eh, as I said before, I'm not over-interested in getting better, I primarily play with RL friends of similar skill so 'getting better' is counter-productive to 'having fun'


Wat.

So neither you nor your friends want to get better at the game you all play? None of you want to go from being wood league superstars to moving up through silver, then gold, then platinum, and making it to diamond, and maybe making it to master's someday? Why not?

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby achan1058 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:18 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:Eh, as I said before, I'm not over-interested in getting better, I primarily play with RL friends of similar skill so 'getting better' is counter-productive to 'having fun' I ladder to pass the time.
I think there's a difference between not having the mechanics to become better, as opposed to not bothering to get better at all. I can understand the former, especially if you don't have the time to drill, but I fail to understand your endorsement of the latter.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Swivelguy » Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:19 pm UTC

If you get better than your friends, you can just play with them 1v3 instead of 2v2. 8)
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby EdgarJPublius » Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:26 pm UTC

Game_boy wrote:So you consciously choose not to make workers constantly like you should? It's such a tiny thing separating you from actually being good.


No, that was a mistake, I saw the weak wall and focused on building MOAR lings instead of doing something actually useful.

Beardhammer wrote:
EdgarJPublius wrote:Eh, as I said before, I'm not over-interested in getting better, I primarily play with RL friends of similar skill so 'getting better' is counter-productive to 'having fun'


Wat.

So neither you nor your friends want to get better at the game you all play?


Not at all, I just don't want to get better out of proportion to them.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:54 pm UTC

Swivelguy wrote:If you get better than your friends, you can just play with them 1v3 instead of 2v2. 8)


This :)

It's fun playing handicapped matches, for both players involved. It's fun to watch three dudes that have absolutely no freakin' clue what they're doing try to overwhelm a skilled player simply by virtue of throwing more units at them. Win or lose, everyone has fun.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:45 pm UTC

Game_boy wrote:You can, because their rushes are poorly executed enough so that you can do a standard build (pool-first, 3-rax expand, 3-gate robo expand) and always win whether they rush or not. If you survive to 10mins with constant worker production and 2 bases you should be able to 1A, not even look at the fight and win.
If they do that then they're no longer bronze league and your argument becomes invalid. Saying 'macro better' is of course the best piece of advice, but you can't say someone is behind for having a slow expansion or something when their opponent is making similar egregious mistakes. It's a whole different game, where 7 worker rushes become viable and battlecruisers become overpowered.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:21 pm UTC

So, cost for cost, stalkers vs hydras.

Protoss upgrades armor, Zerg upgrades damage -- even.

Cost: 25 extra minerals for stalkers.
Pack: The same (!)
Speed: Stalkers faster off-creep, and has blink. On-creep, hydras faster
Range: With upgrade, identical.
Supply: the same.
Sqrt(DPS / HP): Nearly identical.

So, by my analysis, this the protoss player ends up being short only 25 minerals per unit. Which is pretty close to parity. Is it the stalker weakness against things like zerglings that causes the problem? (In my experience, mass hydra beats my mass stalker). Or is it the economic advantage of the zerg (more bases, faster production)?

Zerg larva (the bottleneck) take 15 time from a 350 mineral factory, or 5250 minerals for a hydra-per-second throughput.
Stalkers take 32 time from a 150 mineral factory (warpgate), or 4800 minerals for a stalker-per-second throughput.
Hatchery+Queen = 500 minerals, 1/10 + 1/15 = 1 larva every 6 seconds on average, or 3000 minerals for a hydra-per-second throughput (plus free energy to spend on queen).

(Note that nexus speedup is not an economically reasonable way to produce stalkers faster! The above is just the marginal cost of building more hatcheries (and queens) to build more hydras. Building more nexii to produce stalkers faster is stupid, unlike building more hatcheries.)

Hmm. Zerg takes a hit from having to build supply from their same hatchery factory. 1 overlord every 4 hydras brings them up to 4500 minerals for a hydra-per-second on the ramp-up, or 3000 for a hydra-per-second recovery. Which brings to mind that one of the big advantages of zerg is being able to recover from a wipe with a new army...
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

Last edited by JHVH on Fri Oct 23, 4004 BCE 6:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:59 pm UTC

Stalkers are slightly wider.


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