Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Xenomortis » Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:53 am UTC

During my last real period of play (pre-HOTS), my ZvP winrate was at 0% (or close).
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Koa » Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:33 am UTC

J the Ninja wrote:What I find unendingly frustrating about PvZ is how unforgiving it is. Miss a force field? Sim-city off by 1 hex? Forgot to have your zealot on hold position? Not watching your army for 5 seconds and the roaches showed up? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA YOU LOSE. Right like that. I feel like I can be doing fine, and then the game will just fall out from under me in a matter of seconds because of 1 little thing.

I've heard this before.

TvZ, not watching your army for one second and a bunch of banelings roll in and kill your whole bio army, not spotting a 10 minute nydus worm in your base that scvs could have easily shut down and now you're dead. PvT, not babysitting your templar perfectly and having them get picked off for free, not having the right units in the right place to defend drops and losing a nexus or two. ZvP, not scouting the whole map and missing a critical pylon, denied early game scouting and losing to that all-in (whatever it may be, protoss has a million of them). ZvZ baneling wars -- one baneling on ten lings is huge and it's so easy to screw up. I could go on.

Point being is that there are plenty of unforgiving things in this game over seemingly minor details. It turns out that they're not so minor, and you should adjust your view instead of getting frustrated in the gap between what you expect and how things are. It can be very tempting to start using it as an excuse and then you become a TumescentPie or most of the battle.net forums.

If your favorite protoss player were to look at your games and say "yeah, having a gap in your wall is a huge deal, it really should never happen" your viewpoint might be adjusted so that when you lose because of that it's not that it's unforgiving or unfair but rather because you fucked up something that should be very simple. Instead of frustration you feel stupid and embarrassed. When you see an unexpected army come out of the fog of war you feel like an idiot. Improvement becomes more about minimizing mistakes (and the effects of your mistakes, as mistakes will always happen) rather than your perception of what it means to play well. You find it frustrating that if you miss a FF you lose, I think it's deserved and maybe I see other things that you could have done.

That is, if improvement is your goal. I know a lot of people just play for fun, in which case I can only shrug and say "take it or leave it."

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:29 pm UTC

J the Ninja wrote:I literally have a 12% win rate vs zerg right now (2-12).


Whats your basic strat versus Zerg?

I'm in a lower league, but I started consistantly beating zerg with the FFE, 2 base all in --- although I frequently get 3-4 bases.
Now I am playing zerg, and the thing I fear most is the 2 base all in.


What do you scout on? I started scouting on 9 and I use that probe to deny/delay the zerg expansion. Make pylon, cancel pylon. I find it also is useful to see if they are expanding or pooling first, which is good info. Expand first tells me I'm safe.

It also seems to me like Toss counters Zerg very well. Our counters Crush their armies, and their counters are 1 trick ponies.

How many observers are you making?

How many follow up scouting missions are you doing?

Are you doing drops?

Are you harassing? This is huge because no harass = he gets to drone up.
All my zerg losses now come from people pushing hard and early, forcing me to make units. Or the classic push just before I get mutas.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Nylonathatep » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:27 pm UTC

Started Laddering again as T after my exam.

3W 1L in bronze league...

I Aim to get out of Bronze but the season is ending on 6/10 and I'm not sure if I have enough time to get out of it. Still I could used the practice after a 1.5 year hiatus.

I watched my replays and realized I've been playing really really badly, and my reaction time is noticiably slower :(
I'm not constantly making workers either :(

How do you stop a reaper rush in a TvT? My one L is attributed to that.

I also got reaper rushed in another TvT... that TvT is pretty crazy considering he Ninja expand on the other side of the Map, went Banshee and CattleBruiser. I somehow Managed to hold it off because my opponents don't upgrade in Bronze and was holding onto the skin of my teeth against the BCs. The EMP on the second engagement with BCs saved me because he can't Yamato Canon. Still he was constantly harassing and taking out key structures with cloaked Banshee. I managed to crushed his ninja expand and prevent him from mining and landing two great seeker missiles.. one against his Banshees, the other against his last ditched efforts with mass marines. Finally I managed to starved him and he gg after a 2 hour long game.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:22 pm UTC

Nylonathatep wrote:How do you stop a reaper rush in a TvT? My one L is attributed to that.


Scout. Check for early gas, early reactor, 2+ rax.
Walk up the ramp, walk down the ramp. Keep doing that, it gives you GOBS of information.
If you walk up the ramp and see 6 reapers.... If you see a factory If you spot a command center ... all super valuable info.

Build marines. You should easily be able to produce more marines than he can reapers.

Ask yourself: What decision did I make that allowed him to kill me with a simple rush.

Did you spend to much money on tech or expansion? Thats pretty much the only way you could be killed by a reaper rush.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Sytri » Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:10 am UTC

Urgh. I always get back into playing this at the worst times. Mainly when I'm exhausted and I can think straight enough to just spam zerglings and roaches but not much past that. Played a 4v4 (zztt (us) v tttp) last night, got them to speedlings and some roaches, did some good damage aginst two of the enemy with another zerg team mate but they fought us off. Then thought to myself, "Infestors next as I've just watched the other two players build turrets and the protoss has void rays. I'm sure thats the way to go."

Was then stomped on by massive MMM and tanks and just couldn't think fast enough to get myself out of the mess or to just survive long enough that my other team mates could help. I need a good sleep before I play again I think.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kain » Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:51 am UTC

Does it count as smurfing/sandbagging/whatever if the player who throws the game is playing unranked? I 'won' a TvT against a player without any league matches this season, who had a best league placement of diamond in 1v1s last season. Now, he wasn't as obnoxious as some other smurfs I played against back in WoL (he actually played through the entire game, waited for me to gg, and then left before I could), but I do find it annoying that my MMR is now going to be a bit more inflated than it should (I've only played ~9 HotS games, so every win and loss counts).
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:51 am UTC

Kain wrote:Does it count as smurfing/sandbagging/whatever if the player who throws the game is playing unranked? I 'won' a TvT against a player without any league matches this season, who had a best league placement of diamond in 1v1s last season. Now, he wasn't as obnoxious as some other smurfs I played against back in WoL (he actually played through the entire game, waited for me to gg, and then left before I could), but I do find it annoying that my MMR is now going to be a bit more inflated than it should (I've only played ~9 HotS games, so every win and loss counts).


idk how to feel about people who do that. I mean, maybe he wants to lower it to play an offrace... I get annoyed losing to masters when I try to offrace on unranked cause the mmr starts out the same as my main. I seem to lose 4-5 games in a row as toss, beat a plat, then back to losing to masters when I try it :/

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby yurell » Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:51 am UTC

It's so hard to get back into playing this multiplayer knowing that all that will happen is me constantly being stomped.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Xenomortis » Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:02 am UTC

Yeah, that's the problem I always have.
I never developed enough familiarity with the controls to comfortable play without constantly thinking about how to do things, so playing was stressful.
I think, should I play again, I'll just quit-out of my first 10-20 games or so, so there's no performance pressure.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:58 am UTC

The game has a pretty solid matchmaking system, so you should get matched with people who are just as bad as you.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:14 pm UTC

Here is a question: if you have no MMR, and you play only unranked games, does the "extra fast MMR approximation" of the placement matches code disabled?

We made some set teams that we had not played before, did only unranked games, and it seemed to keep us in the "really easy" pool of players longer than usual.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Koa » Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:37 pm UTC

I've never believed that placement matches worked that way. I think placements are just an arbitrary number of games to give the system some room to determine where you might be. The less data the system has, the more reliant it is on an uncertain MMR, so it might seem like placements have a different weight to them. If you tank your placements it will have 5 games of data that you might be bronze, but it will very quickly adjust itself as it gains more data and becomes less certain that your MMR is accurate. You have to lose a lot of games to make the system more certain that you suck, and you have to keep throwing games to keep that certainty high.

I think if you game the system like that at all it's smurfing, unranked or not. The community as a whole doesn't care though, as I said before there's not a whole lot of integrity to the ladder like there is in games like LoL. They just now made it so that you can't be demoted, you can only be placed into a lower league for the next season. Not a terrible idea, but there is a little too much coddling and obfuscation for people to take the ladder that seriously (unless it's for trash talk, apparently).

Unranked doesn't seem to have a certainty value, or at least it has a very low limit. That would make it a little closer to an Elo system which would explain why it would take a little longer to climb. Though MMR swings wildly, it won't be able to make many of the predictions that it makes in ranked ladder to quickly place you against equal opponents. Of course, this is all my speculation.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby PeteP » Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:30 pm UTC

I have no idea why I won this game (well I have he didn't attack me after the start and at the end lost everything against my void rays) http://drop.sc/341337 I considered the game lost after the first two zergling attacks, I guess he was in the mode to expand instead of finishing me off. But anyway that is not the point, what I wondered about is: Is it common to let others play with your account or do people just sell sc2 by selling their account? His highest finish was platinum and he had 10k games, and I have more than once seen people whose profile suggested a skill level higher than they had. So are they all sold accounts? Isn't there anyway to reset you stats? Not that it matters.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kain » Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:29 pm UTC

PeteP wrote:His highest finish was platinum and he had 10k games, and I have more than once seen people whose profile suggested a skill level higher than they had. So are they all sold accounts? Isn't there anyway to reset you stats? Not that it matters.


Did he have any missing seasons? That could indicate that he burned out on SC2 back in WoL, and only is just getting back into the game (I went from being an okay gold player to being a rather poor bronze player in the year and a half I took off, so it isn't that much of a stretch for me to assume that could be the case there).

So, after watching the replay from his perspective, it looks like the archons were the true heroes of that match (why he bunched up the corrupters and brood lords over them, I don't know... okay, that's a lie, it probably had something to do with him having no hotkeys at all. No wonder his macro was atrocious (worse than mine, at least in the midgame, which is saying something)).

I also love how he decided to go right into infester + broodlord, without bothering to scout your base at all. That and the upgrade buildings being built, and then forgotten for a good 10 minutes. All in all, hilarious match, even if it was somewhat painful for me to watch, as I generally prefer zerg to protoss.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Koa » Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:28 pm UTC

Profiles with very high games played are usually indicative of loss botting at some point. It's a simple program that queues for games and then quickly surrenders. The bots eventually get matched up against other bots, and one of them has to win, so it's a quick and easy way to unlock the 1000 wins portraits and achievements.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Nylonathatep » Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:38 pm UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:The game has a pretty solid matchmaking system, so you should get matched with people who are just as bad as you.


Maybe at higher level, but in Bronze league the skill levels are all over the place! You have people that can barely macro, to 2 rax reaper rushers, to outright sandbaggers.

I guess that's really the charm of bronze league. You never really know how skillful your opponent is until you had a game with him/her.

2 W 2 L Laddering last night:

Lost to 1 protoss cuz I saw he didn't block enterance and went 6 hellion rush, but he rush DT and I can't get killed enough probes to make the hellion worthwhile. I also did't macro hard enough and certainly not macroing when I was microing the hellions.

Lost to another protoss when he simpily overpower me with stalkers sentry... again not macroing hard enough + not enough scouting to see his army coming.

Won 1... scouted that the protoss was fast expanding (he only made 2 pylon the whole game) was going reapers anyways and just snipe his probes with reapers. He was biatchin about how every terran went reapers... (really?)

Won another vs Terran. Simpily camp outside his door and deny his expansion. Out worker him, Out produce him, out tech him. He ended up dropping his army in my base... Cleaned up, trash his natural, and took out his desperate attempt at banshees. Classic Stavation Play and boring TvT.

I need a good Terran build (no 2 rax reaper plz), and also my macro still got a long way to go. I've also lost my sense of timing and mini-map awareness. :( I guess I have a huge hole to climb out of bronze.

I also wonder if it's easier in Bronze if I switch back to WoL.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:32 am UTC

Nylonathatep wrote:I need a good Terran build (no 2 rax reaper plz), and also my macro still got a long way to go. I've also lost my sense of timing and mini-map awareness. :( I guess I have a huge hole to climb out of bronze..


12 Rax
15 gas
15 orbital.
2 marines then reactor
second depot
@400 minerals -> expand
@100 gas -> factory
take your 2nd gas as soon as you can after expanding.
as soon as factory finishes, start armory + starport.
after 6 marines put the factory on the reactor -> 2 widow mines

then you go start dropping hellbats cause your medivac + 2 hellbats come out at the same time.
You can either add more factories, or make a tech lab on the rax and start stim, then go double engineering bay for upgrades depending on if you want mech or bio play.

I do basically this in TvT/TvP but transition into mech/bio respectively. It's also fine in TvZ up to a point if you just want to refine one thing to make it easier, but I generally prefer a 12/12 reaper opening into 3cc versus zerg.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:58 pm UTC

So I was top 8 diamond last season. Gave SC2 a rest for a couple of weeks because of work.

Play my promotion match, and get demoted to gold...?!
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:39 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:So I was top 8 diamond last season. Gave SC2 a rest for a couple of weeks because of work.

Play my promotion match, and get demoted to gold...?!

a large number of people get demoted on placement now... Because of the silly "can't demote during season" thing they pulled they seem to have decided that you just get demoted on placement.

like on kr i was plat and playing/beating diamonds and a few masters while ladder was locked. did placement and got gold... won one game and got plat, won one more game and got diamond.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kain » Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:18 am UTC

Is it just sticking basically everyone in gold? I was in bronze league for good reasons (poor macro, abysmal apm, still not familiar with hots units), yet lost my placement match and still ended up in gold.
(It does occur to me that since I only played about 10 games last season, those two sandbaggers probably had something to do with my new placement).

So, it can't demote midseason, but the matchmaking system will adjust and probably keep matching me with bronze or silver, right? I am getting a bit annoyed at this current losing streak (to the point where I was happy when I got proxied by a protoss, because at least the game was over quick).
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Will » Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:17 pm UTC

I was gold last season but got demoted to silver (after losing to a bronze player!) so Idunno.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:25 pm UTC

Will wrote:I was gold last season but got demoted to silver (after losing to a bronze player!) so Idunno.


I was gold, quit my placement match and still got gold.

But I feel like I was very close to platinum.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Jesse » Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:37 pm UTC

I was Gold and got Plat, so dunno.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:32 am UTC

Kain wrote:Is it just sticking basically everyone in gold?

Nah, I went from M -> D on NA. It seems to be rather conservative with placements now (demoting most people not very high in their league) that it can't demote during the season to correct. If you're getting promoted I'd assume your MMR was just pretty high for the league you were in.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:10 pm UTC

When we do goof-off teams, we are often placed rather ridiculously low, and promoted afterwards. It does result in funny things, like beating a team containing someone who was placed grandmaster in the past, and then being placed bronze as a team. :)
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Coin » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:56 am UTC

Did anyone else watch the final game from Dreamhack? Instant classic!
Spoiler:
It was soooo close and both were really playing at their absolute best!
It was really nerve tingling to see it go to the 5th round.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:02 am UTC

The sjow vs. Life series was so amazing...

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Sytri » Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:33 am UTC

So for some reason SC wouldnt let me log into the european servers last night so played in America instead. Did some 4v4 rating matches, placed gold. I'm bronze at best in EU. I love the americans! So many more people that are worse than me! Yay! For a brit, when is the best time to play on the american servers? I'd like to use them as an aid in learning how to play well again as opposed to the EU servers where it's mainly a lesson in how to lose gracefully.

Oh, and is there a way to automatically block communications from the opposing team. There was just a world of trash talk that I just can't be bothered with.

Also, ordered an iPhone case with the zerg logo on the back yesterday, can't wait till it turns up :)
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Koa » Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:46 pm UTC

Confirmation bias. You've said before you're silver in 3v3 and bronze in 1v1. It's very common, even expected, for people to be a league or two higher in team games than they are in 1v1. It's also very common to have a lucky or unlucky streak in team games matchmaking. I'm pretty sure KR>EU>NA only pertains to the highest levels of 1v1. It bleeds down from there, but only so far before they're again indistinguishable. I would be interested in evidence to the contrary.

I've noticed in every game that I've played that the collective skill level drops in the off hours (4am). I don't know why this is. You would expect the opposite -- that the most dedicated players would still be playing. More drunks I guess? I don't know. You might be seeing some of that as well.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Adacore » Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:15 pm UTC

I'd expect skill variability to increase in the off hours - as the game has fewer people with which to match you, it needs to widen the search band to find you a suitable opponent, but that should mean both harder and easier games, not universally easier.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:04 am UTC

Dunno. In my experience, off hours players are overall worse. Can't really say why.

Maybe because people are more likely to be tired or drunk, and you're more likely to play against people who are cross region?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:28 am UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:Dunno. In my experience, off hours players are overall worse. Can't really say why.

Maybe because people are more likely to be tired or drunk, and you're more likely to play against people who are cross region?

Cross region should be irrelevant... just cause I'm playing from Aus with high ping doesn't make me "worse"... by which I mean it does in a sense, but I always play with that ping, so it's not like my skill level won't be accurately predicted by my mmr.

I would simply put it down to the matchmaking... It tries to find as even a match as possible without making you wait a long time. At 4am with 20% of the players online, that is just going to be wider.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:00 am UTC

If off hours has a similar spread of raw talent, but with extra handicap, then the 50th percentile will be effectively less skilled.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:16 am UTC

homework: if you play at peak/off hours compare the number of points you gain/lose on overage. if it's higher during off hours, it's just mmr giving you a wider spread of people to play vs. to reduce wait times.

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Sytri
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Sytri » Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:23 pm UTC

Is getting burrow ASAP a good tactic to use as a protection for your mineral line? used in conjunction with spine and spore crawlers? I've rarely researched it until mid game when I get infestors should I be doing it a lot earlier?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:28 pm UTC

Sytri wrote:Is getting burrow ASAP a good tactic to use as a protection for your mineral line? used in conjunction with spine and spore crawlers? I've rarely researched it until mid game when I get infestors should I be doing it a lot earlier?


Maybe against toss? Getting it against terran just means your units are trapped while the hellbats roast them in the scan-shine.
I edit my posts a lot and sometimes the words wrong order words appear in sentences get messed up.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Sytri » Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:45 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:
Sytri wrote:Is getting burrow ASAP a good tactic to use as a protection for your mineral line? used in conjunction with spine and spore crawlers? I've rarely researched it until mid game when I get infestors should I be doing it a lot earlier?


Maybe against toss? Getting it against terran just means your units are trapped while the hellbats roast them in the scan-shine.


Yeah, but I'm thinking that whilst they're burrowed the spines are defending, they're wasting energy on scans and it only lasts a short enough while to get your army back. I'm not thinking of it as a get out clause; more of an aid for when reapers pop up and your army is on route to their base. I'll give it a try this weekend, it was just something that came into my mind this afternoon at work and thought I'd air the idea here :)

Also, was thinking it'd be worse against toss as if they had a well placed observer that'd be you done.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:31 am UTC

I don't think you quite appreciate just how quickly hellbats kill drones. You'll probably lose the entire mineral line in the time it takes a spine crawler to kill the hellbats.

The protoss problem can however be solved with a spore crawler to kill observers (or spot for the queen if they're trying to be sneaky).
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:00 am UTC

I managed to kill 11 drones and 4 lings with 2 reapers and 1 marine against a zerg player who had queens, and then another 6 drones and 40 speedlings (on creep) with 6 red flame hellions.

... this guy wasn't very good at zerg.
I edit my posts a lot and sometimes the words wrong order words appear in sentences get messed up.


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