Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:56 am UTC

The biggest difference between air/ground units in sc2 is upgrades. Making both kinds of units is easy enough, but if you don't have upgrades they are less effective than they should be, and you can't normally afford to get every different upgrade path.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Mon Nov 04, 2013 6:37 pm UTC

|Erasmus| wrote:Making both kinds of units is easy enough.


Meh. If you face massive early pressure you sure are going to regret dumping money into that tech tree.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:47 pm UTC

Been goofing around in team games lately. Must say it's pretty fun.

Also, this shit, I don't care if I win or lose, it's awesome: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2SXxplv7D8
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Koa » Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:50 pm UTC

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0s3rzHla0w

edit: bonus, best team game I've played lately. 38 minute ttpvppt
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Koa » Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:46 am UTC

Someone had asked me about the AI in SC2 and if I could beat elite difficulty.
"Yeah, several of them."
"All of them on the same team?!"
"Of course."

I don't play against bots hardly at all, but later on I wanted to see just how many I could take on. I played against two elite bots and won easily. After that I didn't even bother trying to play against three, I went straight to 1v4. I lost and lost and lost again, but it didn't quite seem impossible. I felt like giving up a few times, but for some reason I would try again. I became committed.

I started to narrow down viable conditions and strategies. I found a decent map, and set all the bots to zerg against my terran. I found the AI is terrible at defending drops, partly because they often use their drones to defend, so I figured a widow mine drop to be best to start out the game. It worked fairly well, but then they would quickly get detection, and marines without stim couldn't do the damage that I needed. Eventually they would all flood me and break my defenses.

I decided to bring back the hellbat. Hellbat drops proved to be ridiculously effective at crippling their economy early on. It made sense to transitioned into mech to close out the game, but I would still eventually get whittled away despite killing 60+ drones. Mech was too slow and immobile, and not terribly powerful against the huge array of tech that was being thrown at me. I couldn't secure enough of the map to ensure that I would win through attrition. I needed bio.

It took several more attempts and revisions, but I finally managed to pull through. Here's my strategy:


Stage 1 is to do the hellbat drops and cripple the economy of one of the bots. I get stim during this, and when stim finishes I start dropping the other bot nearby with bio plus whatever hellbats are still alive. I'm killing drones like flies, but much like flies, when you kill one you find two more. I need to continually cripple both of their economies for stage 3 to go smoothly.

Stage 2. At around 16 minutes or so they all move to knock on my front door. I just need to hold the line. I've tried building planetaries to defend before, but that makes them more timid to attack me, which causes complications with stage 3. I need them to expend their combined arms attacking me.

Stage 3 I salvage the remaining bunkers and quickly move my defenses forward to cut off my half of the map. I set up several planetaries with tanks while I use small bio forces to clean up the two bots that I crippled earlier. They're still able to put up a bit of a fight, especially when the other two bots continually pound on my new front.

You might think that now that it is a 1v2 it should be an easy win, but at this stage of the game the AI is completely out of hand. Creep is everywhere, spores and spines everywhere, constant expanding, constantly at max supply, detection everywhere. This is the point where I usually die. I can't simply attack them head on because their two armies will always be bigger than my one.

Stage 4 I very slowly push forward to secure the two central expansions. And by slow, I mean I'm swimming up a stream of zerg. It's a mountain of corpses. I continually drop their main base to destroy tech structures and drop their outlier expansions. One of the main weaknesses of the AI is that they move the majority of their army in one big blob. I pull their army back and forth while picking stuff off. I also occasionally move forward to take a fight, though not because I expect to make progress on the map.

After another twenty minutes of this they finally run out of money and I break through to clean up the game. The map was nearly mined out by the end. One hour and five minutes.

Apparently you can just mass void rays pvp and it's piss easy since the AI doesn't know what to do. Oh well.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:03 pm UTC

I know I'm replying to a post from, like, two weeks ago, but I just saw it and just finished watching the replay and it was...pretty awesome. It was like a campaign mission. When you started cutting the map in half with PFs I was expecting you to just sit back and let them waste all their resources trying to break through but you were actually able to raid their side of the base enough to start taking them out. Have you considered sending that to someone like Husk or Day9? Seems castable.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Koa » Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:32 am UTC

Yeah, the PFs were more of a buffer to keep me alive so that I could continue the aggression. I felt like it was a really, really fun campaign mission too. Even in the middle of playing it I had the thought that I wished the singleplayer could be more like it.

I have no interest in submitting the replay to anyone myself, and I think both Day9 and Husky are extremely busy and not producing much sc2 content lately, but I have no objections if anyone wants to pass it on or cast it themselves or make a video of it or write a dramatic novel.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:39 pm UTC

What rank are you now psion?
Master or Grand master?

I started playing again... after a 2 year break.
(Me and Koa were on a diamond team togeather with him mostly carrying me)

I went straight into ranked play and tried to throw every game, then a damn platinum surrendered to me in game 5 so I got put into gold league. <--- I don't belong there, way to rusty.

Going to just keep playing games and try to get back to where I used to be.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:50 pm UTC

So LotV information is starting to trickle out now.

I'm cautiously optimistic!
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Will » Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:37 pm UTC

LURKERS!
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Sat Nov 08, 2014 9:51 pm UTC

Not just Lurkers. Battlecruiser harass! Roaches that can destroy forcefields! A single ill defined Protoss unit!
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:37 pm UTC

The change to workers and minerals are also interesting. Feels like deathballs will be a lot less viable.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby yurell » Sun Nov 09, 2014 12:14 am UTC

Anyone have links they would like to share for this? I'm interested, but I stopped following SC2 news a while ago.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun Nov 09, 2014 12:25 am UTC

I edit my posts a lot and sometimes the words wrong order words appear in sentences get messed up.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby yurell » Sun Nov 09, 2014 4:31 am UTC

Thanks! The new changes are certainly interesting.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun Nov 09, 2014 7:12 am UTC

Other known changes:

* Banshees have range 7
* Planetary Nexus doesn't shoot air
* Protoss units take double damage when warping in
* Games open with 12 workers, and minerals/patch have been reduced to 1000.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby yurell » Sun Nov 09, 2014 8:49 am UTC

Wow, they really want to increase the pace of the game, don't they?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:08 am UTC

It will also maim the deathball, since bases mine out so much faster. Can no longer just camp out on 2 bases until you have the ultimate 3/3 army of doom, because that's simply no longer affordable on two bases. There are other changes to this end as well, such as the redesigned swarmhost.

Seems also to be a lot more harass potential in the late game, with 7 range banshees that move as fast as oracles, invincible nydus worms, and so on.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun Nov 09, 2014 5:02 pm UTC

I edit my posts a lot and sometimes the words wrong order words appear in sentences get messed up.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Xeio » Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:04 am UTC

Anyone else excited they're bringing back the 'Archon' game mode? I loved that in the original SC.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Xenomortis » Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:52 pm UTC

So even though it's been over a year since I last played, I'm going to weigh in with my scrub opinions. :D

Zerg
(I only ever played Zerg)

Ravager:
So it's a bigger roach with a targeted mortar ability. I'm guessing this is aimed at giving zerg armies the ability to fight toe-to-toe a bit better without taking us back to the WotL Boordlord-Infestor days.
I suspect this is going to start out as a Hive-tech upgrade, like the Hydra speed upgrade did, but that may be a bit late for it (depending how good the unit is).

Lerker:
So I've never played Brood War, but this did strike me as a more entertaining unit than what we got in SC2.
I don't know what's changed since Blizzard's initial decision to remove this guy, but I'm curious as to how this will affect Zerg compositions.
Current fast paced builds depend on banelings and I don't see those going anywhere, whilst slower compositions, even Roach-Hydra stuff, will probably still be best served with Infestors.
Perhaps there's something in using Vipers with Lerkers and Ravagers to incrementally push forward, I don't really know.
It does have more staying power than the Infestor, not being energy-dependent, so perhaps that'll merit its inclusion alone.

Swarm Host:
I never liked this unit, it always struck me as such a dumb and uninteresting unit. That doesn't mean I thought it was *bad*, just not entertaining at all.
Now it's a "mobile harass unit", which is not something Zerg ever lacked.

Corruptor:
It's still a big air-superiority unit that fights off everything not shaped like a Void Ray. But now it can attack buildings!

Nydus Worm:
So now it can't be killed during the emerging animation.
But I don't think that was ever something that held it back - sure it sucked when it died before you got use out of it, but it's still expensive, it's still slow to move an army in and out of it, and it's still going to die.


Protoss
(I hate Protoss)

Disruptor:
Fully expect this to be changed before release. Seems too situational right now.
The main use case for this seems to be nuking worker lines (with the Warp Prism) and pushing armies away. It just seems like a weak Colossus otherwise, or wannabe Reaver.

Oracle:
The stasis ward could be very annoying. Not a fan of things that take away control from players, but unlike Fungal Growth this can at least be avoided.

Warp Prism & Carrier:
Meh.


Terran

Herc:
This feels as though it's meant to fight ling-baneling. But Terran can already fight that.
It is hard for pure bio though - I guess this is aimed at making that composition viable for us mere mortals?

Cyclone:
So this outspeeds a lot of things, but I'm not sure what Terran would use it for.
It's got less range than a Stalker or unupgraded Colossus. Perhaps Roaches?

Battlecruiser:
A get out of jail free card. This is nice, it lets you retreat your Battlecruisers (although if it's expensive, you may not get to use the cannon).


You, sir, name? wrote:* Games open with 12 workers, and minerals/patch have been reduced to 1000.

I think the other changes pale in comparison to this.
Suddenly those rare early game threats that used to keep you honest disappear.
Although you don't lose many "legitimate" openings; 10-pool is the only one that's really gone I think (and when was the last time you saw that).

The resource reduction is also interesting; I think Terran suffers the most here - they'll look to expand earlier than before since they'll exhaust their resources faster than anyone else.
Zerg will also run out of steam faster in those really long games.

They clearly want faster and shorter games with these changes, and I don't think I agree.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:17 pm UTC

Xenomortis wrote:So even though it's been over a year since I last played, I'm going to weigh in with my scrub opinions. :D
Disruptor:
Fully expect this to be changed before release. Seems too situational right now.
The main use case for this seems to be nuking worker lines (with the Warp Prism) and pushing armies away. It just seems like a weak Colossus otherwise, or wannabe Reaver.


I think it's supposed to add micro to protoss battles. I'm not entirely sure how, but maybe.

Xenomortis wrote:Herc:
This feels as though it's meant to fight ling-baneling. But Terran can already fight that.
It is hard for pure bio though - I guess this is aimed at making that composition viable for us mere mortals?

It's apparently a general-purpose anti deathball unit as well from what I gather. Seems a bit like terran chargelots with decent AOE damage. They also do quite a number to mineral lines.

Xenomortis wrote:Cyclone:
So this outspeeds a lot of things, but I'm not sure what Terran would use it for.
It's got less range than a Stalker or unupgraded Colossus. Perhaps Roaches?


The lock-on range is less than a stalker's attack, but once it's locked on, it outranges the stalker. With the range upgrade, it gets really ridiculous (I think it gets colossus range). Based on what I saw in the blizzcon showmatches, it absolutely butchers blink-less stalkers and gateway units in general.

You, sir, name? wrote:They clearly want faster and shorter games with these changes, and I don't think I agree.


I'm not sure about that. More than anything, they seem to want to have continuous, spread-out action instead of the old no rush 20 deathball vs deathball battle. Arguably a more broodwar feel. That also goes into a lot of the unit designs. Cyclones, ravagers, HERCs all do stupid amounts of AOE damage. Huge "ball"-armies do not deal well with that (not even protoss, since hardened shields can no longer absorb all the damage). The super-strong new harass options means you pretty much can't just 1-a your entire army into the enemy and expect your bases to be left untouched.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Xenomortis » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:45 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:
Xenomortis wrote:Cyclone:
So this outspeeds a lot of things, but I'm not sure what Terran would use it for.
It's got less range than a Stalker or unupgraded Colossus. Perhaps Roaches?


The lock-on range is less than a stalker's attack, but once it's locked on, it outranges the stalker. With the range upgrade, it gets really ridiculous (I think it gets colossus range). Based on what I saw in the blizzcon showmatches, it absolutely butchers blink-less stalkers and gateway units in general.

I've just watched a couple of those and it's quite scary; it's hard to say what Protoss should do against it - their Stalkers get one shot before before it's out of range.
Zerg has Zerglings at least.

I'm reminded of the original reveal for the Widowmine and Warhound.

You, sir, name? wrote:
Xenomortis wrote:They clearly want faster and shorter games with these changes, and I don't think I agree.


I'm not sure about that. More than anything, they seem to want to have continuous, spread-out action instead of the old no rush 20 deathball vs deathball battle. Arguably a more broodwar feel. That also goes into a lot of the unit designs. Cyclones, ravagers, HERCs all do stupid amounts of AOE damage. Huge "ball"-armies do not deal well with that (not even protoss, since hardened shields can no longer absorb all the damage). The super-strong new harass options means you pretty much can't just 1-a your entire army into the enemy and expect your bases to be left untouched.

I don't think these changes help all that much in that regard: there's always been decent harassment options, but they haven't increased the value of your bases or workers so the incentives there haven't changed.
And I don't need all that many mining basis to operate at full capacity; 3 is enough.
Sure I need to get extra bases earlier now but that's because one of my previous bases is now less important.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Mokele » Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:50 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:Summary from blizzard: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/16654945/


Hooray, they're emphasizing all of the parts of the game I'm worst at! :roll:

Does anyone know if there are any custom game styles available in the vein of "Starcraft2 Multiplayer For People With The Reflexes Of Dead Cats"? I enjoy SC2 multiplayer in principle, watched the Husky & Day9 vids, but I left when I was cruising at 80% loss rate (which, theoretically, should be impossible with the matchmaking system) in bottom Bronze and ~25 APM.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:01 pm UTC

Xenomortis wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:
Xenomortis wrote:Cyclone:
So this outspeeds a lot of things, but I'm not sure what Terran would use it for.
It's got less range than a Stalker or unupgraded Colossus. Perhaps Roaches?


The lock-on range is less than a stalker's attack, but once it's locked on, it outranges the stalker. With the range upgrade, it gets really ridiculous (I think it gets colossus range). Based on what I saw in the blizzcon showmatches, it absolutely butchers blink-less stalkers and gateway units in general.

I've just watched a couple of those and it's quite scary; it's hard to say what Protoss should do against it - their Stalkers get one shot before before it's out of range.
Zerg has Zerglings at least.

I'm reminded of the original reveal for the Widowmine and Warhound.


I think the best bet is fast air. A couple of phoenixes and a few stalkers ought to deal with the cyclones relatively easily. Tech timings also hit earlier, so oracle pressure might be able to delay the cyclone timing. Since this is a fast factory aggression, you can be pretty sure Terran isn't going to have a large marine count. A nexus cannon based defense might also work as a stalling tactic.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Derek » Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:22 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:It's apparently a general-purpose anti deathball unit as well from what I gather. Seems a bit like terran chargelots with decent AOE damage. They also do quite a number to mineral lines.

Seems like an obvious firebat expy to me.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:56 pm UTC

Mokele wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:Summary from blizzard: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/16654945/


Hooray, they're emphasizing all of the parts of the game I'm worst at! :roll:

Does anyone know if there are any custom game styles available in the vein of "Starcraft2 Multiplayer For People With The Reflexes Of Dead Cats"? I enjoy SC2 multiplayer in principle, watched the Husky & Day9 vids, but I left when I was cruising at 80% loss rate (which, theoretically, should be impossible with the matchmaking system) in bottom Bronze and ~25 APM.

There is a flaw in the SC2 matchmaking.

I can take an account, and lose as many games as I want. I can then play against anyone at the bottom of bronze.

In effect, I find the bottom of bronze harder than the bottom of silver, because silver contains fewer smurfs.

...

Stasis ward could be as good as forcefield in the narrow window of "no detection". You could imagine an oracle dropping one at the enemy ramp when your army is deployed, and having free run at your mineral line.

Protoss Harrass. You now have warp-prism blink and disruptors.

warp-prism blink is ridiculously micro, and only really helps after the enemy starts defending? Your ability to warp units into their mineral line got worse in this expansion (which was one of my early harasss options -- drop zealots in a mineral line.)

The disruptor+prism could be a nasty harass option.

If roach anti-FF shows up early, it breaks protoss early game? If late, just pushes you to deathball more? You need high end units to match zerg offence (otherwise you are piles of HP that don't do any damage -- stalkers, immortals, zealots), and you need a ball around that to defend them with HP-in-depth?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:11 pm UTC

Derek wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:It's apparently a general-purpose anti deathball unit as well from what I gather. Seems a bit like terran chargelots with decent AOE damage. They also do quite a number to mineral lines.

Seems like an obvious firebat expy to me.


I think it's an attempt to work around the fact that the firehellbat doesn't really work against protoss in SC2. Between sentries and colossi, it's a goddamn massacre. But if you can zip over the forcefields with HERPs, it's a whole 'nother deal.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Adacore » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:41 am UTC

Yakk wrote:
Mokele wrote:I enjoy SC2 multiplayer in principle, watched the Husky & Day9 vids, but I left when I was cruising at 80% loss rate (which, theoretically, should be impossible with the matchmaking system) in bottom Bronze and ~25 APM.

There is a flaw in the SC2 matchmaking.

I can take an account, and lose as many games as I want. I can then play against anyone at the bottom of bronze.

In effect, I find the bottom of bronze harder than the bottom of silver, because silver contains fewer smurfs.

In addition to this, I guess if you're far enough at either extreme of the tails of the normal distribution bell curve, there will often be nobody at/below your level (or at/above your level) to match up against, so at the extremes (at the bottom of bronze, or in grandmaster, I guess), win or loss rates can skew significantly away from 50% entirely naturally.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Koa » Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:17 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:Anyone else excited they're bringing back the 'Archon' game mode? I loved that in the original SC.

I'm excited that it will be more official, but I already play it. It's called 'macro micro' on the arcade.


I'm against the worker and mineral changes. I prefer to take it as blizzard is saying they are open minded to making changes to the economy for lotv, as I don't feel like they address any of the problems with sc2's economy and if anything they make them worse. They should really look to FRB, Starbow, and SC2BW for what to do. Though, I believe they also said (at a blizzcon panel) that they have no interest in making any "big" changes to the economy. I'm just going to ignore that part for the convenience of my own sanity.

The worker change eliminates almost any cheese that happens before 12 supply. No more 2gate, 2rax, 8/8/8 reaper, 6-11 pool, etc. Arguably a good thing, but I really don't like how it feels to be almost mineral saturated from the start of the game. I like the build-up time a lot (chatting, player introductions, microing workers). Starcraft is the last RTS that has a decently strong economic management component ("The Dune II Clone"). I feel like they're undermining that by focusing so much on speed and micro. Does anyone feel like the game starts too slow? I can understand why they would make this change for blizzcon specifically...

While the worker change might even stick in some form, the mineral change has no redeeming qualities. It only reduces the average game length by the same percentage. Players will be fighting over the last few minerals at the 30 minute mark. They said their goal is to have lots of attacks in different locations and that they're happy with this change. You can't force the player to expand or spread out this way. If it were so simple, it would have been done years ago. It might seem like it does exactly that if you try to brainstorm ideas, but it's frustrating to me that they don't know this fairly basic aspect about their own game. Designing new units is far and away more difficult, which is why I have no opinion on what they've proposed. They're fine, for now. We know that they know that we expect more for the future.

Blizzard has always kind of been like that dad who is always away overseas to sc2. He cares and means well, but is never around when it counts and is always unreachable and out of the loop. I feel that way about the campaign too, with all of the people who are writing books about a serious starcraft universe and then blizzard swings in with a campy romance+prophecy, cheap fanservice storyline for the main attraction. I wish I had any interest in the story, but lotv writes itself like the ending of a bad fanfic. Spoiler: zeratul "dies" and the universe is saved from the utterly hollow antagonist, because magic and the power of love.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Xenomortis » Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:08 pm UTC

Koa wrote:I'm against the worker and mineral changes. I prefer to take it as blizzard is saying they are open minded to making changes to the economy for lotv, as I don't feel like they address any of the problems with sc2's economy and if anything they make them worse. They should really look to FRB, Starbow, and SC2BW for what to do. Though, I believe they also said (at a blizzcon panel) that they have no interest in making any "big" changes to the economy. I'm just going to ignore that part for the convenience of my own sanity.

I seem to remember there being some interest in 6m maps (6 mineral patches per base) as a means of throttling incoming, encouraging people to spread out more and engage in lower cost skirmishes over big deathballs. I don't think it lasted long enough to verify whether or not it worked though, but the few games I saw where more interesting than the SC2 average affair.
Such a change would probably require significant balance changes though, due to how things scale.

Koa wrote:No more 2gate, 2rax, 8/8/8 reaper, 6-11 pool, etc. Arguably a good thing, but I really don't like how it feels to be almost mineral saturated from the start of the game.

Losing to them sucks, but I'm far from convinced that early game cheese plays are actually bad for the game, and I would even say that 10-11 pool plays are completely legitimate openings (or at least, they were).

Koa wrote:Starcraft is the last RTS that has a decently strong economic management component ("The Dune II Clone"). I feel like they're undermining that by focusing so much on speed and micro.

I remember an early complaint made at SC2 from those coming from BW was that engagements were not as interesting; units are easier to control and naturally stay together (due to better pathing), and some are far more simple.
There's some truth there, compare the Colossus to the Reaver, but I'm not sure how "valid" it is.

But I wouldn't worry about the economy aspect being completely undermined; we're far away from that. I wouldn't mind more engagements being decided by a player's micro skills.

Koa wrote:I wish I had any interest in the story, but lotv writes itself like the ending of a bad fanfic. Spoiler: zeratul "dies" and the universe is saved from the utterly hollow antagonist, because magic and the power of love.

SC2's story has always sucked sweaty balls. Characters are forgettable, you meander around doing nothing of note for 30 missions, and you there's no actual conflict nor surprises.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:29 pm UTC

The biggest problem with SC2 micro I feel has always been how asymmetric it is. Terran has units you must micro like a madman. Zerg has units you couldn't micro if you wanted to. Protoss has some of both problems depending on the stage of the game.

Evening that out would be a good idea. If nothing else than for smoothing out the difficulty curve.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:01 pm UTC

I wonder if the reduced mineral patch size is expected to accompany an increase in bases per map. This would make the games potentially last about as long, but would accomplish the goal of having more places to defend and thus more engagements overall.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Mokele » Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:34 pm UTC

Yakk wrote:I can take an account, and lose as many games as I want. I can then play against anyone at the bottom of bronze.

In effect, I find the bottom of bronze harder than the bottom of silver, because silver contains fewer smurfs.


I had worried that's what was happening, especially since I used to be high silver and *immediately* took a dive the moment HoTS came out. Some of that is probably more good players who'd been away from the ladder, but some of the bottom bronze people were *insanely* good all of a sudden.

I wonder if there's a simple, algorithmic way to solve that, to detect smurfs? Detecting people who surrender immediately is easy, but something more subtle (like the jackass I encountered who just massed hellbats until my brood lords showed up) could be difficult. Maybe some extremely long-range method that remembers that your account, long, long ago, was in diamond? Or maybe something that notices when two copies of the game were bought with the same credit card? It's an interesting problem to solve, logistically.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:13 pm UTC

Homestory cup is always a delight to watch!
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Adacore » Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:33 pm UTC

The plans for their new venue look incredible. It makes me wish I lived in the area (or, you know, in the same continent).

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:42 pm UTC

I guess there's an official LotV custom map and people are starting to play it. I'm sure there are a few replays on Youtube of pro players trying out the new units with hilarious results. I've found one. Ravager+Swarmhost looks like an amazing combo.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Xenomortis » Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:50 pm UTC

So the Ravager is a 100/100 Hatchery unit?
It's terrifying.

I predict a move to Lair tech and a throttle on the ability (either a longer cool down or making it energy based).
Possibly it needs heavier hitting; that ability with a large group looks like psi-storm spam, but it comes from a bulky unit with a 6-range, 16(?) damage attack.

It's not the fastest unit though; all races have ways of running it around.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Xeio » Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:51 pm UTC

I just want more campaign missions, they're fun.

I mean, rawr, new multiplayer units.

EDIT: Also <3 Husky.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:32 pm UTC

Xenomortis wrote:So the Ravager is a 100/100 Hatchery unit?
It's terrifying.

I predict a move to Lair tech and a throttle on the ability (either a longer cool down or making it energy based).
Possibly it needs heavier hitting; that ability with a large group looks like psi-storm spam, but it comes from a bulky unit with a 6-range, 16(?) damage attack.

It's not the fastest unit though; all races have ways of running it around.

Ya, that range is large. And apparently matches siege tank range.

If you are in medium engagement, you can do a wave of spit (far away first, then closer) I suspect with practice. That blocks off retreat routes, forcing the foe to close on you. And even if they close on you, GMs will probably be able to land the spit on your units and mostly missing their own.

Throw in a bit of gap between spits (even a GM cannot move the troops out in single file lines) and area covered goes way up.

But at this point, awesome.
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