Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby diotimajsh » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:21 pm UTC

Well hey, as long as multiplayer is still unhindered, this sounds okay to me. I'm also okay with having the other races available before we get the spoon-fed campaign style introduction – I played multiplayer for quite a long time before I ever get all the way through the SC or War3 campaigns (or their expansions), and it was still fun to experience the sense of progression. Sometimes by going through it again, you learn subtle tricks, or discover a new appreciation for some particular unit.

I'm less thrilled about money. Given how expansions have worked previously, each new expansion will doubtlessly come with new multiplayer units (even if they're adding specifically non-multiplayer content too), requiring an upgrade to have the full multiplayer experience. Not sure i like the idea of buying two expansions to get to the full game, whereas we've just had to shell out for one in the past (Brood War, Frozen Throne)... ah well.

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That's kinda true. But y'know, I don't feel that bad about being so lenient with Blizzard. For all that I just complained earlier in this post about extra costs, the fact remains that Blizzard makes damn good products. I feel they deserve my money more than any other company in particular, and the games I've purchased reflect that. If they think they can pull off splitting a game into three parts, I do trust that they'll do a good (and perhaps even fair) job of it.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby Clumpy » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:12 pm UTC

Indeed. Blizzard offers far more for your money with a single product than EA, which generally makes very polished but feature-deprived games. I wouldn't buy new units for Blizzard games if they were offered for individual download, but it doesn't sound nearly as abhorrent as EA charging for cars in their racing games.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby random_name » Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:36 am UTC

Mzyxptlk wrote:It's even better business to squeeze every last penny out of a game your customers have been craving for over 5 years (Orange Box, anyone?).

By the way, where did you read every race will have ~30 missions?


...

You're complaining about the Orange Box, which was one of the best gaming deals for a long, long time?

You got TF2, worth the price of admission alone. You got Portal, a brilliant game that a lot of people regard as Game of the Year. You get Half Life 2 and both its expansions. They even threw in Peggle!

All for the price of a single new release game. Theres just no pleasing some people.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby Clumpy » Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:25 am UTC

If you already bought Half-Life 2 you can buy Portal separately. Either way The Orange Box is the best bundle deal since Super Mario All-Stars.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby Endless Mike » Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:30 pm UTC

Clumpy wrote:Indeed. Blizzard offers far more for your money with a single product than EA, which generally makes very polished but feature-deprived games. I wouldn't buy new units for Blizzard games if they were offered for individual download, but it doesn't sound nearly as abhorrent as EA charging for cars in their racing games.

They've released two large expansions for Burnout: Paradise completely free, one of which adds in motorcycles. The game was also very big before those were added.

EA is far from the only company charging for new cars in racing games. See also: MS, Polyphony, probably some others. At least they're not the ones that sold HORSE ARMOR for a few dollars.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:04 pm UTC

$1.49 American. Which everyone involve admits was really, really fucking stupid.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby Jebobek » Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:20 pm UTC

Yea that was a really dumb idea, especially because you can find better mounts in-game that don't really need armor. They came out with some more expansive content after that. I like the Knights of the Nine addon. I enjoyed the epic battle you had at the end, and the fact that you have your own brigade training in the middle of nowhere. In addition, anything to add another member of your posse is pretty cool. I was planning on getting some sort of mod that lets all of your knights follow you around at once.

That said, companies make their gamers happier and more loyal when they start dishing out the content for free. Here's to you, TF2.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby Clumpy » Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:42 pm UTC

Well, the horse armor is the famous example. It was probably dumb for me to single out EA in particular because I didn't have a specific example of car-pushing in mind.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby Endless Mike » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:02 pm UTC

I don't either, since Burnout is the only racing series I even play, but I wouldn't be shocked if EA sold cars, but again, that would make them far from unique. At least with other games, those cars aren't at all necessary to being competitive online or off, so it's completely optional. I have no real problem with companies selling added content, just the double standards that people have when it comes to certain companies.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby thc » Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:35 am UTC

Is this for real? I'm sorry, but no game is worth $150+ dollars. It's so obvious what's going to happen. Smart people will buy 1 version for the multiplayer and then bittorrent the other 2 versions. Dumb people with lots of money will buy all 3. I'm sorry, but this is just a tactless, shameless, money-grab by blizzard.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby Xanthir » Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:07 am UTC

thc wrote:Is this for real? I'm sorry, but no game is worth $150+ dollars. It's so obvious what's going to happen. Smart people will buy 1 version for the multiplayer and then bittorrent the other 2 versions. Dumb people with lots of money will buy all 3. I'm sorry, but this is just a tactless, shameless, money-grab by blizzard.

Two things wrong with your post.

1) It's not "one game". It's a game + expansions. If each game is of appropriate length by itself, that's not a money grab, it's giving people what they want.

2) No game is worth $150? Hahahaha. Tell that to the legions of MMO players. Plus, again, this isn't a single game. It's not going to be some crap sort of 'episodic content' which is really code for 'sell you a single game in pieces, but charge you full price for each'. Each will be a full game. You will be buying three games for $150 total. This is good value if you like all three games.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby Jebobek » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:08 am UTC

Tthc did you read the other posts? There is good evidence that it will be a game + two expansion, not 3 versions. In other words, no game is worth $150, But a game that is played constantly over a period of 4 years and beyond, with two expansions in between, is worth $150.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby thc » Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:01 am UTC

Jebobek wrote:Tthc did you read the other posts? There is good evidence that it will be a game + two expansion, not 3 versions. In other words, no game is worth $150, But a game that is played constantly over a period of 4 years and beyond, with two expansions in between, is worth $150.


...That's even worse and proves what a shameless money grab it is. Now I'm being forced to buy all 3 versions to avoid the power creep! Awesome!

By the way, who in the world actually plays blizzard single player? I haven't since WC 1 and that's because I didn't have internet.

I do understand Blizzard's perspective though - why make money when you can make more money? Most people who would've bought the complete version will still buy all three.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby TheAmazingRando » Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:51 am UTC

So I take it you thought Brood War was a scam too? Or Frozen Throne? Or LoD? Or Beyond the Dark Portal?
Blizzard always releases expansion packs. This time they're just telling us about them ahead of time.

And if you haven't played Blizzard single player since WC1, you're missing out. The campaigns in Starcraft and WC3 are phenomenal.

This is the "complete version." Unless Blizzard is lying to us, the original game + both expansions combined would be ~90 missions, which is about three times the length of a game like Starcraft. Three games' worth of material for the price of three? What a fucking ripoff. :roll:
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby Gunfingers » Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:27 pm UTC

thc wrote:By the way, who in the world actually plays blizzard single player?

I will be playing Starcraft II almost exclusively single player. I may pop on Battle.net periodically or play with friends, but really i'm interested in the story, not getting zerg rushed by koreans.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:38 pm UTC

thc wrote:By the way, who in the world actually plays blizzard single player?
I do. Because I hate people. I've had about a 500:1 Shitty Experience:Good Experience of online gaming. Basically enough good so that I know the rest of the time isn't just me sucking or not completely understanding whatever arcane rule structure is in place or shitty ping times or whatever - enough to know it's not my fault the other 500 times were steaming piles of shit that I wish I could forget but are the reason I basically refuse to play any game in multiplayer once it's been out for more than six months.

So, yeah, assuming I pick this up..which I probably will.. see you guys on Battle.Net for.. about five months. Maybe less. Probably less, because it's Starcraft and it'll attract my most hated online experience quickly.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby Jebobek » Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:56 pm UTC

I've never played anyone online in a real WC3 game, ever. I've done custom maps online but thats just tooling around with the random maps to see which are fun. For instance, I never did anything like DOTA to an extreme.

There is so much Smurfing that goes on everywhere. Even in newer games like Mario Kart you'll get most of the group between 1400 and 1600 rankings, then there will be some guy with all asian letters at 2200 points that somehow gets into our group, and wins by a wide margin every time. Go play with your own numbers, asshole.

I agree that I've always been flustered by getting beaten by "azn742439." Even though it shouldn't, it "gets to me." What I do is turn around and play some In-Real-Life(IRL) friends, or just play 1 player. With IRL friends, players dont laugh at you and spit in your face (for the most part) and will often tell you how to change up your strategy.

Me and two other guys made a pact that we will buy Red Alert 3 when it comes out, and not play until everyone has it installed. We will then do our first battle ever against each other, when we don't know how to play at all. We will be on ventrilo and probably be laughing our asses off. ("GAH, what are those boats and why are they shooting lightning at me??") We will probably be doing the same for StarCraft II.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby Xanthir » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:16 pm UTC

thc wrote:
Jebobek wrote:Tthc did you read the other posts? There is good evidence that it will be a game + two expansion, not 3 versions. In other words, no game is worth $150, But a game that is played constantly over a period of 4 years and beyond, with two expansions in between, is worth $150.


...That's even worse and proves what a shameless money grab it is. Now I'm being forced to buy all 3 versions to avoid the power creep! Awesome!

As noted, you apparently think that every single game that Blizzard has ever produced is a horrific money grab. As well as a large amount of PC games produced by other companies. PEOPLE LIKE EXPANSIONS. It, well, expands the game experience, and when you already enjoy the game, that's a good thing. I mean, seriously, if you think expansions are just shitty money grabs, then why the fuck are you in this thread? Why the fuck are you playing Blizzard games? You admit to playing WC, and probably play SC (maybe D1/D2 as well). Seriously, what the fuck?

By the way, who in the world actually plays blizzard single player? I haven't since WC 1 and that's because I didn't have internet.

And you wonder why you don't know anyone who plays single player... When your entire sample group is people who are already playing online. I don't play online. Never have. It'll be a long time before I will. I have similar experiences as ST and Jebobek, where the few times I've actually tried, it's been an absolutely shitty experience with shitty people who act shitty. I play single player, and I play multi with friends. That's it. And people like me represent a very large fraction of the player base.

I do understand Blizzard's perspective though - why make money when you can make more money? Most people who would've bought the complete version will still buy all three.

Again, you show a complete lack of understanding. If Blizz had released a single game with 10 or so missions for each race, I would have bought it. I would also have then bought the one or two expansions with a similar amount of content. We would have ended up with roughly 30 missions per race, total, but spread out over several games. Instead, they're doing the exact same thing, except one race at a time. Instead of a whole game being 30 missions split between 3 races, you'll have 30 missions for a single race. At the end, you have 90 missions either way.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby Mzyxptlk » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:18 pm UTC

thc wrote:By the way, who in the world actually plays blizzard single player?

Put me on the list too. I play very few games online, the only significant exceptions are CS (always on the same clan's servers) and Diablo 2 (more because I like to have a roaming profile than out of a desire to play MP). Not so much because I get a lot of bad experiences (though dear lord the average CS player is retarded), but because I kind of like the predictability of single player.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby Jebobek » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:26 pm UTC

Another thing I'll do online is cooperative play where you and others fight NPCs. I think its a hoot. Its rare though; most people online like to fight each other. Its true that it can be too easy at times.

What I used to like to do was Co-Op a single race in Age of Empires against a large amount of enemy NPCs. So me and 2 other people will control the Red race, and fight Green, Blue, etc. We set out different tasks, where maybe I would focus on maintaining farms and finding mines, while someone else would build and research, while someone else would manage the army. So you really do have to cooperate, otherwise your peasants will be running back and forth because people keep telling it to go 3 different ways. Is it possible to do same-race Co-Op in Starcraft, Starcraft II?
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby Mzyxptlk » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:32 pm UTC

Jebobek wrote:Another thing I'll do online is cooperative play where you and others fight NPCs. I think its a hoot. Its rare though; most people online like to fight each other. Its true that it can be too easy at times.

Ah yes, another reason why I play Diablo 2 online. Almost forgot.

Jebobek wrote:What I used to like to do was Co-Op a single race in Age of Empires against a large amount of enemy NPCs. So me and 2 other people will control the Red race, and fight Green, Blue, etc. We set out different tasks, where maybe I would focus on maintaining farms and finding mines, while someone else would build and research, while someone else would manage the army. So you really do have to cooperate, otherwise your peasants will be running back and forth because people keep telling it to go 3 different ways. Is it possible to do same-race Co-Op in Starcraft, Starcraft II?

Definately not in Starcraft. Dunno about SC2.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby Xanthir » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:40 pm UTC

You can coop in SC with multiple forces, though. It's been so long since I played that form, though, that I forget if you share resources or what. If so, then that's basically the same thing. One person just uses his entire force to mine, another builds, another armies.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby Gunfingers » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:55 pm UTC

Heh, one newbie has the gall to say something bad about Starcraft and a half-dozen of us shout him down. If that doesn't indicate how truly awesome Starcraft is then i don't know what does.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby Jebobek » Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:02 pm UTC

Its not really that I'm totally into starcraft (hardly played the first at all), its more that he didn't read up on how it works, and after we explained it for him, he then bashed a PC game for coming out with expansions. I didn't think that announcing expansions beforehand would cause such a stink. I guess people like surprises.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby Xanthir » Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:20 pm UTC

Gunfingers wrote:Heh, one newbie has the gall to say something bad about Starcraft and a half-dozen of us shout him down. If that doesn't indicate how truly awesome Starcraft is then i don't know what does.

Nod to Jebebok. If he had come in said "I don't really like Starcraft all that much" he'd just be sort of a douche for coming into an SC thread to say that. What pissed me off was (1) how utterly, completely wrong he was, (2) how utterly, completely smug he was about it, (3) how utterly, completely hypocritical he was about it (dude plays WC, but bashes Blizz for expansions, wtf?), and (4) how he didn't listen to a single thing anyone said when they tried to politely explain how he was wrong.

He thus advanced from a sort-of douche to a deliberate troll, which is just not fucking done 'round here.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby CogDissident » Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:40 pm UTC

Mzyxptlk wrote:Because the people who bought Half-Life 2 and Episode 1 now have 2 copies of those games.

The actual reason for this is because valve wants to sell "expansions" to HL2, so they want to flood the market with copies of half-life-2 (built in mechanism to give away copies of HL2) without making it a "free" game and thus reducing its perceived value.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby Xaddak » Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:58 pm UTC

thc wrote:By the way, who in the world actually plays blizzard single player? I haven't since WC 1 and that's because I didn't have internet.


Add me to the list, too. Every time I tried to play WC3 or Starcraft online, I hated every second of it, except for custom maps. The storylines were what kept me in, and what will probably lead to me getting SCII.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby thc » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:05 pm UTC

lol, why are you calling me a newbie? I was pretty good at starcraft when I played. All of you are making a shitload of assumptions - like saying my "sample group" is only people I've played with online? That's false. That's even worse than saying your sample group is only people you've played with offline (yourself).

Everyone keeps saying that it is 3 games, not 1, but that doesn't make it any more true. Just keep in mind that it was originally developed to be ONE game. Also, I don't have any proof, but I'd be willing to bet money that most people play for the multiplayer experience and don't really care about the single player. (If someone could find some statistic on this, that'd be great.)

Anyway it doesn't matter - the point is, I only want to play multiplayer which is only worth $50. You can have your campaign expansions and pay a billion dollars for all I care. But what will happen is that I'd be forced to pay for it too to avoid power creep. And YES, this is a with expansions in general! Good thing Brood Wars didn't require a CD key, eh?
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby Xaddak » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:09 pm UTC

thc wrote:lol, why are you calling me a newbie? I was pretty good at starcraft when I played. All of you are making a shitload of assumptions - like saying my "sample group" is only people I've played with online? That's false. That's even worse than saying your sample group is only people you've played with offline (yourself).

Everyone keeps saying that it is 3 games, not 1, but that doesn't make it any more true. Just keep in mind that it was originally developed to be ONE game. Also, I don't have any proof, but I'd be willing to bet money that most people play for the multiplayer experience and don't really care about the single player. (If someone could find some statistic on this, that'd be great.)

Anyway it doesn't matter - the point is, I only want to play multiplayer which is only worth $50. You can have your campaign expansions and pay a billion dollars for all I care. But what will happen is that I'd be forced to pay for it too to avoid power creep. And YES, this is a with expansions in general! Good thing Brood Wars didn't require a CD key, eh?


Wasn't the point that you can play any of the races online with the original campaign only (which is $50), and not have to buy the expansions at all? As I understand it, the campaigns are $50 each, online play is a free bonus.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:18 pm UTC

thc wrote:lol, why are you calling me a newbie? I was pretty good at starcraft when I played. All of you are making a shitload of assumptions - like saying my "sample group" is only people I've played with online? That's false. That's even worse than saying your sample group is only people you've played with offline (yourself).

They're calling you a newbie in the mistaken belief that post count matters. As far as assumptions go.. you did ask who in the world wanted to play single player, and several of us responded with the reasons why - mostly being that in our experience, online play is a shitfest in shittown during a three week a shitstorm.

As I understand it, online play is going to be more or less unchanging from the first box. Any extra units the expansions may add are going to only be used in the campaign. Which is good, as it means the extra units do not have to be balanced - it'll be okay to have a Ghost launch the "Map Cleaner" nuke which clears the map of all opposition and most of your stuff as well. Or whatever.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby thc » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:30 pm UTC

Xaddak wrote:
thc wrote:lol, why are you calling me a newbie? I was pretty good at starcraft when I played. All of you are making a shitload of assumptions - like saying my "sample group" is only people I've played with online? That's false. That's even worse than saying your sample group is only people you've played with offline (yourself).

Everyone keeps saying that it is 3 games, not 1, but that doesn't make it any more true. Just keep in mind that it was originally developed to be ONE game. Also, I don't have any proof, but I'd be willing to bet money that most people play for the multiplayer experience and don't really care about the single player. (If someone could find some statistic on this, that'd be great.)

Anyway it doesn't matter - the point is, I only want to play multiplayer which is only worth $50. You can have your campaign expansions and pay a billion dollars for all I care. But what will happen is that I'd be forced to pay for it too to avoid power creep. And YES, this is a with expansions in general! Good thing Brood Wars didn't require a CD key, eh?


Wasn't the point that you can play any of the races online with the original campaign only (which is $50), and not have to buy the expansions at all? As I understand it, the campaigns are $50 each, online play is a free bonus.

If that's the case, I'll believe it when I see it. Blizzard said they will be adding new units, but AFAIK didn't say whether there'd be new MP units. I don't see any financial reason blizzard would do this and there really isn't any precedent.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby Gunfingers » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:46 pm UTC

Personally i wouldn't be surprised if separate multiplayer expansions came out introducing new units that will be available in multiplayer.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby Awia » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:58 pm UTC

I'm sure it says in the opening post that they won't be adding anything new to Online play with the expansions, as such, there won't be a power creep.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby Jebobek » Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:06 pm UTC

Right, according to the article, the only power creeps are the one you have to fight in the single-player campaigns. The new ones they make in the expansions will not be forced into multiplayer. Hopefully if they do intend to add something it will be like TF2 where everyone gets it with a download.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby Xaddak » Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:09 pm UTC

Jebobek wrote:Right, according to the article, the only power creeps are the one you have to fight in the single-player campaigns. The new ones they make in the expansions will not be forced into multiplayer. Hopefully if they do intend to add something it will be like TF2 where everyone gets it with a download.


But wait, wouldn't we have to be hooked up to that internet thing to get that?!?!
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby Jebobek » Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:13 pm UTC

What is this internet thing you speak of??? Gah.. can't... comprehend...
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby thc » Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:20 pm UTC

Awia wrote:I'm sure it says in the opening post that they won't be adding anything new to Online play with the expansions, as such, there won't be a power creep.

How will the expansion sets impact multiplayer gameplay?

The expansion sets will add new content to each race for use in multiplayer matches. This could include additions such as new units, abilities, and structures, along with new maps and Battle.net updates.


Ruh roh. Sorry, you lose. More specifically, I lose.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:22 pm UTC

Source?
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby MiB24601 » Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:53 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
thc wrote:
Awia wrote:I'm sure it says in the opening post that they won't be adding anything new to Online play with the expansions, as such, there won't be a power creep.

How will the expansion sets impact multiplayer gameplay?

The expansion sets will add new content to each race for use in multiplayer matches. This could include additions such as new units, abilities, and structures, along with new maps and Battle.net updates.


Ruh roh. Sorry, you lose. More specifically, I lose.


Source?


He's quoting the Starcraft II FAQ (Found here: http://www.starcraft2.com/faq.xml)

However, if you look at the FAQ question and answer immediately following the one THC posted, you will see a response about protecting against power creep:

If I buy StarCraft II but don't buy any of the expansion sets, will I still be able to play online?

Yes. This will work similarly to Warcraft III and the original StarCraft, which maintained separate online gaming lobbies and ladders for expansion set players and players with the base Warcraft III or StarCraft.
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Re: StarCraft II problems?

Postby Awia » Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:05 pm UTC

thc wrote:Ruh roh. Sorry, you lose. More specifically, I lose.
Yes, yes you do lose.

Yes. This will work similarly to Warcraft III and the original StarCraft, which maintained separate online gaming lobbies and ladders for expansion set players and players with the base Warcraft III or StarCraft.
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