Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Of the Tabletop, and other, lesser varieties.

Moderators: SecondTalon, Moderators General, Prelates

Game_boy
Posts: 1314
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:33 pm UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:07 pm UTC

If they fast expand, the best response is to fast expand yourself. Attacking into a bunker is too risky and all-in.
The Reaper wrote:Evolution is a really really really long run-on sentence.

User avatar
You, sir, name?
Posts: 6983
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:07 am UTC
Location: Chako Paul City
Contact:

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:24 pm UTC

I wish I would get demoted already so that I can get good again. My APM is just terrible nowadays. It was around 80, but now I'm glad if I'm pushing 40, which makes fighting people in platinum rather difficult. The only experience I've kept from the last time I played SC2 is how to fend off various cheese, which is pretty much the only games I win at this point.

I still see that zerg are completely unbeatable. Out of the hundred or so TvZ games I've played, I think I've won about ten. They just build units so quickly, I do not understand what to do. And I think it's wrong that the thing that can stop a roach is a 200/200 battlecruiser army.

Game_boy wrote:If they fast expand, the best response is to fast expand yourself. Attacking into a bunker is too risky and all-in.


It was on a huge map, so the expansion was already up by the time I had identified their spawn location, whereas I had already built two barracks, so fast expanding would have put me at an 1500 mineral disadvantage the whole game. Figured the best thing I could do would be to go all in.
I edit my posts a lot and sometimes the words wrong order words appear in sentences get messed up.

Spambot5546
Posts: 1466
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:34 pm UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:50 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:I still see that zerg are completely unbeatable. Out of the hundred or so TvZ games I've played, I think I've won about ten. They just build units so quickly, I do not understand what to do. And I think it's wrong that the thing that can stop a roach is a 200/200 battlecruiser army.

Can you post some of these replays, because I, as a zerg player, would like to see some strategies that can actually win against Terran.
"It is bitter – bitter", he answered,
"But I like it
Because it is bitter,
And because it is my heart."

User avatar
You, sir, name?
Posts: 6983
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:07 am UTC
Location: Chako Paul City
Contact:

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:00 pm UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:I still see that zerg are completely unbeatable. Out of the hundred or so TvZ games I've played, I think I've won about ten. They just build units so quickly, I do not understand what to do. And I think it's wrong that the thing that can stop a roach is a 200/200 battlecruiser army.

Can you post some of these replays, because I, as a zerg player, would like to see some strategies that can actually win against Terran.


Get a roach. The equivalent terran unit is a Thor with planetary fortresses for legs and battlecruisers for arms.
I edit my posts a lot and sometimes the words wrong order words appear in sentences get messed up.

User avatar
Menacing Spike
Posts: 2982
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:25 pm UTC
Location: Fighting the Zombie.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:20 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:Get a roach. The equivalent terran unit is a Thor with planetary fortresses for legs and battlecruisers for arms.


Yeah, it's not like the marauder has a huge range advantage, deals horrendous damage to it, and can kite it into oblivion :/. The roach can burrow, yeah... ohwait scan.

Unrelatedly: last game I zigzag'd a ball of 60 mutas between psystorms, that was fucking intense. Had two leaver terrans set to pump out medivacs to heal all the dying mutas. We won, but never again :'(.
The economic damage they did was horrendous, though; two allies didn't do shit and eventually left, but with another zerg we shut them out from expanding with lings, he repelled early attacks with banes, and then I teched to mutas and ran around the bot border killing tons of workers. Then they were too stupid to leave their bases, and dicked around trying to kill the mutas, making only marines, templars, vikings, stalkers, and trying to make thors (expect, yeah, not going to let the armory live). Then the useful zerg nidus'd in, and boom, 2 players dead. Flying ball of death kept them contained, and only the threat of psystorms made the game go on.
Useful zerg went infestors, shat all over the place, and it was over.

Mutas are scary man :(.

Game_boy
Posts: 1314
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:33 pm UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:28 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:Get a roach. The equivalent terran unit is a Thor with planetary fortresses for legs and battlecruisers for arms.


Yeah, it's not like the marauder has a huge range advantage, deals horrendous damage to it, and can kite it into oblivion :/. The roach can burrow, yeah... ohwait scan.


But the prevailing TvZ build is marine-tank. Any mauraders the Terran makes are expensive and not nearly as effective as a tank vs. other zerg units plus can't shoot at mutas. So Terrans cut mauraders out of the standard build and I've seen a lot of roach usage in the early-midgame in tournaments. Roaches do well against small numbers of marines and tanks.
The Reaper wrote:Evolution is a really really really long run-on sentence.

Game_boy
Posts: 1314
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:33 pm UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:30 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:It was on a huge map, so the expansion was already up by the time I had identified their spawn location, whereas I had already built two barracks, so fast expanding would have put me at an 1500 mineral disadvantage the whole game. Figured the best thing I could do would be to go all in.


Double expand, or extra in-base orbital. He's not going to be attacking for a while because he's in a defensive mindset w/ the bunker. It's a risk, yes, but much less than all-in.
The Reaper wrote:Evolution is a really really really long run-on sentence.

User avatar
You, sir, name?
Posts: 6983
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:07 am UTC
Location: Chako Paul City
Contact:

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:51 pm UTC

Game_boy wrote:
Menacing Spike wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:Get a roach. The equivalent terran unit is a Thor with planetary fortresses for legs and battlecruisers for arms.


Yeah, it's not like the marauder has a huge range advantage, deals horrendous damage to it, and can kite it into oblivion :/. The roach can burrow, yeah... ohwait scan.


But the prevailing TvZ build is marine-tank. Any mauraders the Terran makes are expensive and not nearly as effective as a tank vs. other zerg units plus can't shoot at mutas. So Terrans cut mauraders out of the standard build and I've seen a lot of roach usage in the early-midgame in tournaments. Roaches do well against small numbers of marines and tanks.


Won't you lose your entire army the moment the Z player builds like four banelings?
I edit my posts a lot and sometimes the words wrong order words appear in sentences get messed up.

User avatar
Menacing Spike
Posts: 2982
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:25 pm UTC
Location: Fighting the Zombie.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:17 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:Won't you lose your entire army the moment the Z player builds like four banelings?


Yeah, not making maraus after scouting a nest or warren seems pretty damn stupid to me, but hey.

User avatar
You, sir, name?
Posts: 6983
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:07 am UTC
Location: Chako Paul City
Contact:

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:30 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:Won't you lose your entire army the moment the Z player builds like four banelings?


Yeah, not making maraus after scouting a nest or warren seems pretty damn stupid to me, but hey.


Sure, you may destroy their first 200/200 attack wave. But then half a minute later when they've built a new 200/200 army (and I have like 7 marines and a burning supply depot), they can apparently do so with new unit types.

TvZ is always an extreme up-hill battle. They've always got the upper hand. Early pressure is out of the question, as they can build zerglings before I can get a marine out. Expanding is most of the time impossible, as the mutas just raze the expansion, to hell with how many turrets you put up. Moving out with your army means speedlings run into your main at Mach 4 and raze everything. If you build marines, they're murdered by two banelings or a roach. If you build marauders, you die as you need the entire base full of marines and turrets to be safe from the muta-ball of doom, and that doesn't work if you've spent money on marauders. 20 minutes later, if you haven't already died, dozens of ultras attack from all directions and you die.
Last edited by You, sir, name? on Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:40 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
I edit my posts a lot and sometimes the words wrong order words appear in sentences get messed up.

User avatar
Menacing Spike
Posts: 2982
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:25 pm UTC
Location: Fighting the Zombie.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:36 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:
Menacing Spike wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:Won't you lose your entire army the moment the Z player builds like four banelings?


Yeah, not making maraus after scouting a nest or warren seems pretty damn stupid to me, but hey.


Sure, you may destroy their first 200/200 attack wave. But then half a minute later when they've built a new 200/200 army (and I have like 7 marines and a burning supply depot), they can apparently do so with new unit types.


You are supposed to destroy the shit out of them after getting a sizable bio ball. Or mech. Or whatever counters their tech. It's not like they can scout you, while you can just scan them.

related: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESdxz08M94U

Early bio push is very effective; it has no real hard counter besides infestors, and they are lair tech.

User avatar
You, sir, name?
Posts: 6983
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:07 am UTC
Location: Chako Paul City
Contact:

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:48 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:
Menacing Spike wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:Won't you lose your entire army the moment the Z player builds like four banelings?


Yeah, not making maraus after scouting a nest or warren seems pretty damn stupid to me, but hey.


Sure, you may destroy their first 200/200 attack wave. But then half a minute later when they've built a new 200/200 army (and I have like 7 marines and a burning supply depot), they can apparently do so with new unit types.


You are supposed to destroy the shit out of them after getting a sizable bio ball. Or mech. Or whatever counters their tech. It's not like they can scout you, while you can just scan them.


Scanning zerg is useless. If you're really lucky, you catch like one tech building. They can scatter their buildings across half the map, as they don't have to fear any sort of drive-by attack.

Menacing Spike wrote:related: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESdxz08M94U


Terran has been nerfed since that video was made.

Menacing Spike wrote:Early bio push is very effective; it has no real hard counter besides infestors, and they are lair tech.


Banelings? It's not like you can run away from them.
I edit my posts a lot and sometimes the words wrong order words appear in sentences get messed up.

User avatar
Menacing Spike
Posts: 2982
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:25 pm UTC
Location: Fighting the Zombie.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:50 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:Banelings? It's not like you can run away from them.


Banelings do shit damage to marauders and are easily kited, unless on creep.
Of course, burrowed banelings can spell disaster. Aside from a raven I don't really see a way to avoid that.

User avatar
Ixtellor
There are like 4 posters on XKCD that no more about ...
Posts: 3113
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:31 pm UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:07 pm UTC

Played an interesting mod today. Star Ship fight... or somethign like that.

You get a capital ship and can buy upgrades and weapons or defensive systems.
No respawn.. probably doesnt' have longgevity, but the fights are pretty fun, feels like a massive battleship.
The Revolution will not be Twitterized.

User avatar
BlackSails
Posts: 5315
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:48 am UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby BlackSails » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:13 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:
Banelings? It's not like you can run away from them.


Even on creep, with baneling speed, you can still run most of your bioball away with good micro and stim.

Game_boy
Posts: 1314
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:33 pm UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:14 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:Played an interesting mod today. Star Ship fight... or somethign like that.

You get a capital ship and can buy upgrades and weapons or defensive systems.
No respawn.. probably doesnt' have longgevity, but the fights are pretty fun, feels like a massive battleship.


It's DotA. All of the SC2 custom games are DotA.

@You, sir, name?

You're meant to run back to your tank line. Poke forward with marines, run back to tanks, banelings die.
The Reaper wrote:Evolution is a really really really long run-on sentence.

Game_boy
Posts: 1314
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:33 pm UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:20 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:
Menacing Spike wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:Won't you lose your entire army the moment the Z player builds like four banelings?


Yeah, not making maraus after scouting a nest or warren seems pretty damn stupid to me, but hey.


Sure, you may destroy their first 200/200 attack wave. But then half a minute later when they've built a new 200/200 army (and I have like 7 marines and a burning supply depot), they can apparently do so with new unit types.

TvZ is always an extreme up-hill battle. They've always got the upper hand. Early pressure is out of the question, as they can build zerglings before I can get a marine out. Expanding is most of the time impossible, as the mutas just raze the expansion, to hell with how many turrets you put up. Moving out with your army means speedlings run into your main at Mach 4 and raze everything. If you build marines, they're murdered by two banelings or a roach. If you build marauders, you die as you need the entire base full of marines and turrets to be safe from the muta-ball of doom, and that doesn't work if you've spent money on marauders. 20 minutes later, if you haven't already died, dozens of ultras attack from all directions and you die.


TvZ always looks like Z domination right until the last second. T ultimately has a stronger army at maxed supply, and a 3 base T can easily wipe out a 6+ base Z (look at many tournament games).

You're right, early pressure is not an option without great micro. Turtle on 2 base, get a third up eventually, then VERY VERY SLOW push with tanks and marines to their nearest expo. Zerglings+banelings+mutas can't touch a tank line with marine support.

Leave one tank plus wall in your main to defend against runbys. You're allowed to build AS MANY TURRETS AS THEY HAVE MUTAS, since mutas are 100/100 and turrets are only 100. One Thor in base plus like 8 turrets means complete safety from mutas.

ONLY build marines and tanks no matter what they build. They should not be able to tech to ultras if you slow push with those units whenever your tank count gets above 4-5. You can even build bunkers and turrets as you push, that's how slow I mean.

Marines shouldn't die if a sieged tank is in range. Tanks shouldn't die if marines are in range for mutas. Don't build mauraders. Don't build anything except marines, tanks and MAYBE a single defensive Thor. Don't worry if the Zerg looks so far ahead, as long as your tank count is high you are going to win unless YOU make a mistake unsieging.

I have tons of great TvZs I can link where they built not one single maurader, if you wish.
The Reaper wrote:Evolution is a really really really long run-on sentence.

Soralin
Posts: 1347
Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 12:06 am UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Soralin » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:37 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:Banelings? It's not like you can run away from them.

Ahem: http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens2/vod/1262 (especially relevant parts starting around minute 25, and 30, marines vs. banelings, with marines winning. :) ) Although yeah, "have micro as good as some of the best players in the world" isn't especially good advice. :) Having siege tanks might make that a bit easier.

User avatar
psion
Posts: 1089
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:33 am UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:50 pm UTC

Game_boy wrote:ONLY build marines and tanks no matter what they build.

I've only really seen that work in pro games.

Game_boy
Posts: 1314
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:33 pm UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:02 am UTC

psion wrote:
Game_boy wrote:ONLY build marines and tanks no matter what they build.

I've only really seen that work in pro games.


That's the idea? Any money you spend on things other than those two is inefficient.
The Reaper wrote:Evolution is a really really really long run-on sentence.

User avatar
psion
Posts: 1089
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:33 am UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:44 am UTC

Well, I was implying that it doesn't work outside of pro games. It takes a lot of understanding of the game and skill to use competently, but when you do it has a near limitless skill ceiling. If you don't have that extreme understanding/skill then there's a lot more efficient units and strategies to use.

User avatar
TheBanana
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:13 pm UTC
Location: Arlington, VA

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:53 am UTC

psion wrote:
Game_boy wrote:ONLY build marines and tanks no matter what they build.

I've only really seen that work in pro games.


Well to be honest, marine / tank w/ medivacs thrown in, is solid against anything the zerg can throw at you until late game when they get ultras or broodlords. And it's really not that difficult nor does it require a great deal of APM to slow push w/ tanks and marines to a zerg base and win the game that way. It's even easier when T just sets up a contain on the zerg and/or cuts the map in half w/ siege tanks and planetary fortresses w/ marines speckled throughout. Very frustrating for a zerg to break a patient terran, that's usually how i lose ZvT's anyway (not counting 2 rax bunker rushes).
- screen name: theBanana on SC2
gamer id: #256

User avatar
psion
Posts: 1089
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:33 am UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:49 am UTC

I've never seen a slow tank push/contain work in sc2 either, unless the zerg is already so far behind as to be basically dead. Either way, haven't you experienced cloak banshees or blueflame hellions or thors? I'm much more afraid of those units when I'm playing a diamond or less player than I am of tank+marine, because tank+marine is so very easy to mess up. Siege too close, siege too far, unsiege at the wrong time, mismicro the marines, slow reactions to muta -- it's all very easy to screw up. If you think you might screw those things up, then it's hard to do wrong with thors.

User avatar
Menacing Spike
Posts: 2982
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:25 pm UTC
Location: Fighting the Zombie.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:53 am UTC

Yeah, tank/marine as described here is weird.
Option 1: sneak in infestors and roaches, egg the marines, watch the splash, unburrow as he scans, fungal surviving marines.
Option 2: nydus his base, kill everything.
Option 3: unburrow banelings on his marines, mop up with air.
Option 4: dick around with mutas, don't let him make a thor.

User avatar
You, sir, name?
Posts: 6983
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:07 am UTC
Location: Chako Paul City
Contact:

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:18 am UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:Yeah, tank/marine as described here is weird.
Option 1: sneak in infestors and roaches, egg the marines, watch the splash, unburrow as he scans, fungal surviving marines.
Option 2: nydus his base, kill everything.
Option 3: unburrow banelings on his marines, mop up with air.
Option 4: dick around with mutas, don't let him make a thor.


This is what I fear when I leave my base with something slow and immobile, like (anything)+tanks. And thors aren't really spectacularly good against magic boxed mutas, they need a hefty number of marines to actually be useful. Which again kinda forces you to stay in your base.

And while turrets may deter individual mutas, you really do need quite a ludicruous amount of them to stop the muta death ball that some zerg players like to get.
I edit my posts a lot and sometimes the words wrong order words appear in sentences get messed up.

User avatar
WarDaft
Posts: 1583
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:16 pm UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:57 pm UTC

Huge muta death ball means less ground resistance. Mutas are fast, not strong.

And even against totally spread Mutas, Thors are still quite strong. 1Thor against 3 Mutas fully spread (ie 0 splash) and the Thor will quite surely win - that's vs. a 50% higher gas cost. Against larger numbers of Mutas, it becomes very difficult to get all the Mutas in range to attack and still keep them spread enough to avoid splash, so things tip further in the Thors favor.

Thors against stacked Mutas isn't so much countering as it is shooting fish in a barrel. With a minigun.
All Shadow priest spells that deal Fire damage now appear green.
Big freaky cereal boxes of death.

Lounge
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:05 am UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Lounge » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:10 pm UTC

If TvZ is a struggle for you, one thing you can do is try playing around as Zerg for awhile. A lot of people are afraid of doing things like this because for some reason they think their ladder ranking actually matters for anything and they don't want to be embarrassed of it if they struggle as an off-race.

You'll get a better understand of how they work, and just how long it takes for them to get to certain units.

From my understanding it just seems like you're afraid of pressuring early because of lings/roaches, but then when they get to Mutas you're trapped in your base. In truth, it's more that if you DO pressure early you force lings/roaches and delay the mutas until you can handle them.
Dibley wrote:"This plot makes no sense! That's not really a lion, it's a guy in a lion suit!"

User avatar
You, sir, name?
Posts: 6983
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:07 am UTC
Location: Chako Paul City
Contact:

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:26 pm UTC

Lounge wrote:If TvZ is a struggle for you, one thing you can do is try playing around as Zerg for awhile. A lot of people are afraid of doing things like this because for some reason they think their ladder ranking actually matters for anything and they don't want to be embarrassed of it if they struggle as an off-race.


The problem with this approach is that you're going to be absolutely massacred for some 50+ games until b-net starts pitting you against players you can hold a candle to with your new race.
I edit my posts a lot and sometimes the words wrong order words appear in sentences get messed up.

User avatar
Kag
Posts: 1214
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:56 am UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kag » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:32 pm UTC

Eh, it's not like you're starting over; a lot of skills are universally relevant.

And, presumably the point is to learn what kinds of things they're concerned with, so you know what to look for on offense. Winning games is largely irrelevant.
The Great Hippo wrote:I am starting to regret having used 'goat-fucker' in this context.

Kain
Posts: 1140
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:29 am UTC
Location: At the center of the observable universe.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kain » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:33 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:
Lounge wrote:If TvZ is a struggle for you, one thing you can do is try playing around as Zerg for awhile. A lot of people are afraid of doing things like this because for some reason they think their ladder ranking actually matters for anything and they don't want to be embarrassed of it if they struggle as an off-race.


The problem with this approach is that you're going to be absolutely massacred for some 50+ games until b-net starts pitting you against players you can hold a candle to with your new race.


Well, you can always play some games against the AI. It isn't quite the same, but as long as you don't play against insane, its not like the timings should be that much off.
Look, you know it's serious when a bunch of people in full armor and gear come charging in to fight a pond of chickens - Steax

User avatar
WarDaft
Posts: 1583
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:16 pm UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:10 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:The problem with this approach is that you're going to be absolutely massacred for some 50+ games until b-net starts pitting you against players you can hold a candle to with your new race.


Study the strategies you see used against your current intently, it will give you something to start from.
All Shadow priest spells that deal Fire damage now appear green.
Big freaky cereal boxes of death.

Spambot5546
Posts: 1466
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:34 pm UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:54 pm UTC

I just won two games in a row. Woo!

I mean both of the guys I was playing against were awful, emphasizing static defense over macro and in one case never expanding, but I'm pretty awful too so I'm still counting them as wins.

I uploaded the second replay because the guy I was playing against actually seemed like he might be okay at the game. His micro was better than mine, he did a better job spreading his creep, but he had the oddest strategy. He 10 pooled, then went right into static defense. He was able to repel a few roach attacks, but didn't go mutas or roach/hydra or any of the other good roach counters. He just built a sneak expand, a fuck-ton of spine crawlers, and started teching to Ultras.
Attachments
oddDuck.zip
(35.45 KiB) Downloaded 29 times
"It is bitter – bitter", he answered,
"But I like it
Because it is bitter,
And because it is my heart."

User avatar
You, sir, name?
Posts: 6983
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:07 am UTC
Location: Chako Paul City
Contact:

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:01 pm UTC

TvT, right. Guy goes MMMS. I go MMMHS. He besieges my main, I doom drop his main killing virtually all of his harvesters (he hasn't expanded yet), he gets a brain fart and sacs 80% of his army for the sake of killing like 5 SCVs and a refinery at my expansion. I'm clearly way ahead. What happens? SC2 crashes. Argh!

Also, today some strategic mastermind pulled this maneuver when he saw a tank next to my bioball.
focus.png
I edit my posts a lot and sometimes the words wrong order words appear in sentences get messed up.

User avatar
TheBanana
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:13 pm UTC
Location: Arlington, VA

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:23 pm UTC

psion wrote:I've never seen a slow tank push/contain work in sc2 either, unless the zerg is already so far behind as to be basically dead. Either way, haven't you experienced cloak banshees or blueflame hellions or thors? I'm much more afraid of those units when I'm playing a diamond or less player than I am of tank+marine, because tank+marine is so very easy to mess up. Siege too close, siege too far, unsiege at the wrong time, mismicro the marines, slow reactions to muta -- it's all very easy to screw up. If you think you might screw those things up, then it's hard to do wrong with thors.


Well it's a lot easier on certain maps but honestly it is always effective in my experience. Even the games I lose with that build tend to be close and the games that I lose tend to be because I got impatient and got caught off guard with unsieged tanks or walked my marines into some banelings. The trick is to just move one or two siege tanks at a time and keep your marines spread out to stop mutas, add a thor or two for base defense. Expand towards the zerg while doing so, set up a planetary and just stifle the zerg.

I'm not saying this is the only effective way to combat zerg but in my experience it is the most reliably consistent strategy. FYI, I think I'm terrible at playing terran and I can still manage to win most of my TvZ games.

The only other option IMO is an early MM push (3 rax builds still tend to slaughter most zergs when you're in close position) or an extremely h


You, sir, name? wrote:
Menacing Spike wrote:Yeah, tank/marine as described here is weird.
Option 1: sneak in infestors and roaches, egg the marines, watch the splash, unburrow as he scans, fungal surviving marines.
Option 2: nydus his base, kill everything.
Option 3: unburrow banelings on his marines, mop up with air.
Option 4: dick around with mutas, don't let him make a thor.


This is what I fear when I leave my base with something slow and immobile, like (anything)+tanks. And thors aren't really spectacularly good against magic boxed mutas, they need a hefty number of marines to actually be useful. Which again kinda forces you to stay in your base.

And while turrets may deter individual mutas, you really do need quite a ludicruous amount of them to stop the muta death ball that some zerg players like to get.


10 or so marines w/ stim and a couple of medivacs can tear through more than twice their number in mutas or at the very least make the exchange very cost effective in the terrans favor. Also, the more mutas a zerg has then the less banelings he/she has gas for, so just send a stream of marines w/ a thor or two to the zerg base and enjoy the lulz (of course i'm over simplifying but that's the bare bones of the strategy)



On a somewhat related note, I've been working on a fun reaper build against zerg w/ early reaper speed, get about 6-8, terrorize the zerg base while expanding yourself and transition into reaper / marine. This forces a lot of lings from the zerg (so less drones) and generally denies a third while you're getting your second up. Reapers own zerglings and banelings and the marines terrorize the inevitable mutas. It's very APM intensive but I've won 4 out of 5 with it against other diamond players, the low mineral cost of reapers lets you get your expo up fairly early too. The only worry is that if it gets scouted before you're ready, the zerg can throw up a roach warren before your reapers can do any damage and then counter and kill you before you get out marauders.
- screen name: theBanana on SC2
gamer id: #256

User avatar
You, sir, name?
Posts: 6983
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:07 am UTC
Location: Chako Paul City
Contact:

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:49 pm UTC

This is why I don't like zerg.

banelings.zip
(29.89 KiB) Downloaded 42 times
I edit my posts a lot and sometimes the words wrong order words appear in sentences get messed up.

User avatar
Menacing Spike
Posts: 2982
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:25 pm UTC
Location: Fighting the Zombie.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:47 pm UTC

TheBanana wrote:10 or so marines w/ stim and a couple of medivacs can tear through more than twice their number in mutas or at the very least make the exchange very cost effective in the terrans favor. Also, the more mutas a zerg has then the less banelings he/she has gas for, so just send a stream of marines w/ a thor or two to the zerg base and enjoy the lulz (of course i'm over simplifying but that's the bare bones of the strategy)

If the zerg actually fights your marines with his mutas, he's a complete idiot.
The point of mutas when I play zerg is pretty simple:
Either:
1) Mop up.
2) Scouting.
3) Kill isolated units and reinforcements.
4) Kill void rays.
5)"Z: Oh, really, did you move your marine blob an inch away from that corner of your base?
T: Yeah why?
*pop boom pop pop boom boom pop pop pop*
*trollface*
T: Nyoro~n."

mike-l
Posts: 2758
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:16 am UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby mike-l » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:54 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:This is why I don't like zerg.

banelings.zip


You turtled on one base for 15 minutes after seeing him fast expand. What did you expect?
addams wrote:This forum has some very well educated people typing away in loops with Sourmilk. He is a lucky Sourmilk.

User avatar
You, sir, name?
Posts: 6983
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:07 am UTC
Location: Chako Paul City
Contact:

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:07 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:This is why I don't like zerg.

banelings.zip


You turtled on one base for 15 minutes after seeing him fast expand. What did you expect?


He had banelings. How am I supposed to defend an expansion against banelings?! Also, there was a zerg base in my natural, which took a while to clear out.

My point is, I had a bigger army, and it was made mostly of stuff that's supposedly good against banelings. Not only did he roflpwn my entire army, he had enough crap left to raze my main.
Last edited by You, sir, name? on Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:09 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
I edit my posts a lot and sometimes the words wrong order words appear in sentences get messed up.

achan1058
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:50 pm UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby achan1058 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:08 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:This is why I don't like zerg.

banelings.zip
I don't think the race would have mattered when he is on 3 bases and you are on 1......

User avatar
You, sir, name?
Posts: 6983
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:07 am UTC
Location: Chako Paul City
Contact:

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:10 pm UTC

achan1058 wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:This is why I don't like zerg.

banelings.zip
I don't think the race would have mattered when he is on 3 bases and you are on 1......


Most zerg players expand before I even get offensive units. What the hell am I supposed to do to prevent that? SCV rush? And at the point I do have a marine, the zerg can built 12 units in the time it takes me to build one.
I edit my posts a lot and sometimes the words wrong order words appear in sentences get messed up.


Return to “Gaming”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests