Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby J the Ninja » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:34 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:I've tried to open a Protoss game a few times, but there's this bump between my first pylon and the probe that comes after it. Either the probe is delayed due to lack of money, or I'm supply blocked. Just for a few seconds, but still I was like... eww, and figured I was doing something wrong, and checked a few replays, and it seems that other people are getting this as well.

Is this really the way things are in protoss, or were the replays I was checking out done by scrubs who hadn't figured out how to open protoss smoothly?


If you time it just right, the supply block will only be for a second or so. After you get probe-9 paid for, save all your mins for the pylon, once you get it started, get probe-10. And save your chrono's until the pylon is done. Works best to chrono on probes 11-12, 13-14, and 15-16, then save them for warp gate after that.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby BlackSails » Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:03 pm UTC

I usually put down 9 pylon, chrono when it finishes, put down a gate on 13, and chrono after the gate is put down.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:09 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:That's so icky.

I tried to 3gate robo against a medium terran AI but just kinda 3 gated and didn't have enough units and died :-(


Generally you don't attack Terran. In the early game they both expand first and attack you first, because until you have many sentries, upgrades and charge or blink gateway units suck against barracks.

@J the Ninja

PvP you should save as much chrono as possible for warp gate
PvT you can spend a few
PvZ you need all the probes you can get; they're on two bases much faster.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:26 am UTC

I'm so going for this build the next time I scout someone massing voidrays.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xj1HMVUp-zo

Don't wanna watch the video?
Spoiler:
He fast expands and goes double in-base OC and gets silly marine production
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:30 am UTC

Finally got bumped back down to Silver. So glad. Everyone sucks even more than I do and they get so upset when they lose. The last guy, rather than GGing, said "fuck you". :D
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:49 am UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:Finally got bumped back down to Silver. So glad. Everyone sucks even more than I do and they get so upset when they lose. The last guy, rather than GGing, said "fuck you". :D


Uh... which server do you play on?

I've been known to occasionally rage to the point of quitting on that note when people are especially annoying. I think I may have today, actually, when someone won a base trade by lifting off his CC and flying it into the corner of the map when all I had was a dropship with some marines.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:35 am UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:Uh... which server do you play on?

North America, unless it gets more specific than that. Dylar Sigma division? I dunno, I just hit the button that starts games and then I play throw Roaches at people. This is me.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kain » Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:26 am UTC

I've been playing 3v3s a bit lately, trying for that three way dominant achievement (only need TTT, but seeing as I play random, and Terran is my weakest race by far - ending with 7000+ minerals is not uncommon for me when I play them, it will probably be a while). Got demoted to bronze after three wins, amusingly, though considering how out of practice I am I can't complain.
Anyways: has anyone ever played a team match where one of the allies does absolutely nothing? I mean, he never even started mining, just pinged one enemy movement about 15 minutes into the game. I suspect this is the new way of trying for portraits without actually doing anything, but if so, they really should be smart and give their allies control.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:24 am UTC

Kain wrote:Anyways: has anyone ever played a team match where one of the allies does absolutely nothing?


About 200 team games played (4v4), and maybe it happened once or twice?

Also, now that I'm decently ranked (rank 1 plat) the MMR pits me against opponents that require actual effort and thought to defeat. Losing games on purpose to play vs relaxing opponents just doesn't seem very... ethical. Bargh.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:26 am UTC

Kain wrote:I've been playing 3v3s a bit lately, trying for that three way dominant achievement (only need TTT, but seeing as I play random, and Terran is my weakest race by far - ending with 7000+ minerals is not uncommon for me when I play them, it will probably be a while). Got demoted to bronze after three wins, amusingly, though considering how out of practice I am I can't complain.


Three words: Offensive planetary fortresses. I mean, if you're macroing bad, you might as well use it to have fun, right?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:11 am UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:
Kain wrote:I've been playing 3v3s a bit lately, trying for that three way dominant achievement (only need TTT, but seeing as I play random, and Terran is my weakest race by far - ending with 7000+ minerals is not uncommon for me when I play them, it will probably be a while). Got demoted to bronze after three wins, amusingly, though considering how out of practice I am I can't complain.


Three words: Offensive planetary fortresses. I mean, if you're macroing bad, you might as well use it to have fun, right?


Nonono.

MORE BARRACKS
MORE MARINES
MORE BARRACKS

That or option 2: mech, mass orbital, and drop a shitton of mules to repair in combat.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Jesse » Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:17 am UTC

Man, I am just loving the image of flying a command center and a few loaded dropships into the other person's main and then upgrading to a PF while the mairnes defend it.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:39 am UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:
Kain wrote:I've been playing 3v3s a bit lately, trying for that three way dominant achievement (only need TTT, but seeing as I play random, and Terran is my weakest race by far - ending with 7000+ minerals is not uncommon for me when I play them, it will probably be a while). Got demoted to bronze after three wins, amusingly, though considering how out of practice I am I can't complain.


Three words: Offensive planetary fortresses. I mean, if you're macroing bad, you might as well use it to have fun, right?


Nonono.

MORE BARRACKS
MORE MARINES
MORE BARRACKS

That or option 2: mech, mass orbital, and drop a shitton of mules to repair in combat.


Well, obviously. If you want to win. Pfft, who's into does that sick shit?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:43 am UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:Well, obviously. If you want to win. Pfft, who's into does that sick shit?


The mule thing seems horribly inefficient (but awesome).
"Haha, his thors are going DOWN!!"
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:54 am UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:Well, obviously. If you want to win. Pfft, who's into does that sick shit?


The mule thing seems horribly inefficient (but awesome).
"Haha, his thors are going DOWN!!"
*Fwoooooo- ktch* X60
"wat"


Dunno, depends on where you're doing it. If they've got multiple siege tanks next to their oversaturated mineral line, then MULEs are absolutely awesome.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:29 pm UTC

Especially with scan in the same building.

Free army, anytime, anywhere. That can't attack. But still.
Ohmy god, it's the late game terran forcefield.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:34 pm UTC

Dear Spambot: When you build a new hatchery, put some workers on gas. This is why your muta/speeding army is always 8 mutas and jillion lings and this is why you get your shit wrecked by collosi all the time.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby achan1058 » Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:49 pm UTC

Kain wrote:I've been playing 3v3s a bit lately, trying for that three way dominant achievement (only need TTT, but seeing as I play random, and Terran is my weakest race by far - ending with 7000+ minerals is not uncommon for me when I play them, it will probably be a while). Got demoted to bronze after three wins, amusingly, though considering how out of practice I am I can't complain.
How much gas though? If it is similarly high, I might try the new battlecruisers.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:00 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:Especially with scan in the same building.

Free army, anytime, anywhere. That can't attack. But still.
Ohmy god, it's the late game terran forcefield.


Well, zerg has the changeling field. So I guess it's only fair.

What's a good terran opener that sets you up for macro-oriented mech play? I've got a fast expand opening that's awesome for bio-units, but doesn't get enough gas early on to be particularly useful with mech.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:08 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:
Menacing Spike wrote:Especially with scan in the same building.

Free army, anytime, anywhere. That can't attack. But still.
Ohmy god, it's the late game terran forcefield.


Well, zerg has the changeling field. So I guess it's only fair.

What's a good terran opener that sets you up for macro-oriented mech play? I've got a fast expand opening that's awesome for bio-units, but doesn't get enough gas early on to be particularly useful with mech.


MORE HELLIONS
MORE MARINES
MORE SCVs

Unrelated: I'm now addicted to mutas against terran. Fuckers are so deliciously mobile. And with good micro and flanking ling/bling clean the marines right up. Scurry in my wake, little tanks, marauders and medivacs.
Unrelated: 1v1 seems boring as fuck.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:31 pm UTC

See for me Terrans are the only race I don't transition into mutas with. Almost every Terran player has an army packed with either Marines or Thors and both of those hard counter mutas, eliminating their value as a harassment force.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:36 pm UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:See for me Terrans are the only race I don't transition into mutas with. Almost every Terran player has an army packed with either Marines or Thors and both of those hard counter mutas, eliminating their value as a harassment force.


Thors are too slow to catch up with the mutas, and posting 3 at each expansion is a huge investment for them, and you can simply attack factories or stuff. Marines have to be medivaced around and well, that's kind of risky.
Blings squish marines and slings squish thors. Just don't a-move the blings into his mech/marauders: move them next to marines, and profit.
Some pros just drop the blings in the ball with overlords, but beh, too much of a bother

last FFA: 3 terrans. They go all mass banshee and attack me at the same time. Won anyway but wat

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:27 pm UTC

Missile turrets are an effective defense against Mutas. If you have 20 Mutas, and the Terran has 3 mining bases, they can quite safely put 5 turrets at each mining base, and 5 more at their main production area. Your harassment options are now greatly reduced, and you've spent 2000 more gas than the Terran.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:43 pm UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:See for me Terrans are the only race I don't transition into mutas with. Almost every Terran player has an army packed with either Marines or Thors and both of those hard counter mutas, eliminating their value as a harassment force.

whaaa?

As a T player. mutas are by far the scariest thing you could be building. Yes, banelings are annoying, but if I don't have to worry about my tanks being sniped constantly, it's so easy to just siege up in range of stuff and and run your marines around.

What -do- you build against T?

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:53 pm UTC

WarDaft wrote:Missile turrets are an effective defense against Mutas. If you have 20 Mutas, and the Terran has 3 mining bases, they can quite safely put 5 turrets at each mining base, and 5 more at their main production area. Your harassment options are now greatly reduced, and you've spent 2000 more gas than the Terran.


The turrets aren't going to move around and snipe his important units/reinforcments.The turrets cannot scout. The turrets cannot clean up after your ground units. Etc.
They also have a built time and are often built after the mutas did their damage: far too late.
They are easily owned by brood lords. Or speedlings, if the expansion isn't walled.
Mutas can kill turrets without a loss with micro.

Muta range is so annoying though. The same as the hunter missile "muta is fucked" range :(.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:56 pm UTC

1. Build sensor tower in the center of the map.
2. Expand 5 times, leaving 3 expansions, two of which covered in destructible debris.
3. Destroy the enemy's main
4. Get accused of map-hacking for attacking units visible through the fog of war with the sensor tower, and scouting the only plausible location for a hidden expansion.

Menacing Spike wrote:
WarDaft wrote:Missile turrets are an effective defense against Mutas. If you have 20 Mutas, and the Terran has 3 mining bases, they can quite safely put 5 turrets at each mining base, and 5 more at their main production area. Your harassment options are now greatly reduced, and you've spent 2000 more gas than the Terran.


The turrets aren't going to move around and snipe his important units/reinforcments.The turrets cannot scout. The turrets cannot clean up after your ground units. Etc.
They also have a built time and are often built after the mutas did their damage: far too late.
They are easily owned by brood lords. Or speedlings, if the expansion isn't walled.
Mutas can kill turrets without a loss with micro.

Muta range is so annoying though. The same as the hunter missile "muta is fucked" range :(.


It's not like zerg players tech to mutas in secret. Muta-ling-bling is like 70% of all ZvT games, so if you see ling-bling, it's a pretty good guess that you're gonna see muta soon there after, and justified to throw down a bunch of towers.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:58 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:1. Build sensor tower in the center of the map.
2. Expand 5 times, leaving 3 expansions, two of which covered in destructible debris.
3. Destroy the enemy's main
4. Get accused of map-hacking for attacking units visible through the fog of war with the sensor tower, and scouting the only plausible location for a hidden expansion.



Ah, yes, I tried the mass orbital strategy vs AI, it felt like map-hacking with all the scans everywhere.
The Mules are not really useful with a mech army but VERY useful with a BC/viking army (as SCVs are killed by ground defenses/troops, can't go over cliffs...).

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:00 pm UTC

|Erasmus| wrote:
Spambot5546 wrote:See for me Terrans are the only race I don't transition into mutas with. Almost every Terran player has an army packed with either Marines or Thors and both of those hard counter mutas, eliminating their value as a harassment force.

whaaa?

As a T player. mutas are by far the scariest thing you could be building. Yes, banelings are annoying, but if I don't have to worry about my tanks being sniped constantly, it's so easy to just siege up in range of stuff and and run your marines around.

What -do- you build against T?

I can't micro Banelings effectively, so I pretty much never build them. Against Terran I usually go Roach/Hydra/Ling which can win against most ground armies if I can catch him with his tanks unsieged, then to attack his base I make a few Brood Lords.

In other words I usually lose.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:23 pm UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:I can't micro Banelings effectively,


Option 1: burrow them in packs of 2 on his path (you need 2 blings to kill a marine). Pop them out when his army is over them.
Option 2: send roaches/slings on the front. Flank with blings. don't attack move, but order them to move around his marines, and THEN attack move. Finish marauders with mutas/slings. Emphasis on the flanking part: if your army comes from the same direction, he can just use stim and/or conc to kite you to death.

Also, if you really, really don't want to use blings, try infestors. Fungal growth is very very good against bio.

Also, just saw someone deny me a third expansion and force a scan with a burrowed zergling. Didn't know it was possible
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:06 pm UTC

And be careful of suicide runs of magic boxed units. A dispersed group of marines with combat shields can stim and charge your banelines, taking them out 2:1. This puts you at a net loss of 50 minerals and 50 gas for each marine that is successful. It's even worse if they use marauders.

I haven't actually seen anyone do this, despite it being a most deliciously ironic counter.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:39 pm UTC

Playing without sound is easier than playing with sound, as it forces you to do Good Things like looking at the minimap and keeping track of your supply and resources constantly.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:41 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:Playing without sound is easier than playing with sound, as it forces you to do Good Things like looking at the minimap and keeping track of your supply and resources constantly.


In WC3/DOTA you could use sound to hear neutral creeps dying and thus pinpoint the location of your opponent. In SC2 it's use is far more limited :(.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Robstickle » Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:42 pm UTC

WarDaft wrote:And be careful of suicide runs of magic boxed units. A dispersed group of marines with combat shields can stim and charge your banelines, taking them out 2:1. This puts you at a net loss of 50 minerals and 50 gas for each marine that is successful. It's even worse if they use marauders.

I haven't actually seen anyone do this, despite it being a most deliciously ironic counter.


You generally don't see people do it because it's hard to do well. And if you don't do it well, it's not cost effective.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:53 pm UTC

WarDaft wrote:And be careful of suicide runs of magic boxed units. A dispersed group of marines with combat shields can stim and charge your banelines, taking them out 2:1. This puts you at a net loss of 50 minerals and 50 gas for each marine that is successful. It's even worse if they use marauders.

I haven't actually seen anyone do this, despite it being a most deliciously ironic counter.


Hopefully the zerg dude is paying attention and has zerglings or roaches. When faced with banelings only (that only happens in 4v4) I do send dispersed marines to force them to back off.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:26 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:In WC3/DOTA you could use sound to hear neutral creeps dying and thus pinpoint the location of your opponent. In SC2 it's use is far more limited :(.



Pretty much every important thing that happens in the game has a sound effect.


Just about the only thing you can't hear that would be useful is some indicator that you can use more chronoboosts. You can hear mules die, you can hear larva pop, you can hear research and units complete. Chrono has no useful reminder sound effect.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:53 am UTC

So, I actually played against someone going mass raven last night on ladder. I think the best thing I've ever seen was a fleet of a dozen or so ravens wander a bit too close to my 3/1 upgraded thors (about 6 of them). I think one raven was far enough way to not die to the splash.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kain » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:57 am UTC

|Erasmus| wrote:So, I actually played against someone going mass raven last night on ladder. I think the best thing I've ever seen was a fleet of a dozen or so ravens wander a bit too close to my 3/1 upgraded thors (about 6 of them). I think one raven was far enough way to not die to the splash.


That sounds awesome! (Of course, I hate Thors, so :( ).
I hate making those kind of mistakes: once sent a control group of 16ish mutas into a thor + turret guarded island, rather than the broodlords I had meant to send. Still won, but yeah, that as embarrassing.
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WarDaft
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:03 am UTC

|Erasmus| wrote:So, I actually played against someone going mass raven last night on ladder. I think the best thing I've ever seen was a fleet of a dozen or so ravens wander a bit too close to my 3/1 upgraded thors (about 6 of them). I think one raven was far enough way to not die to the splash.



Nothing in the air counter Thors if it's stacked! Ah, the air-ground dichotomy of splash damage.
All Shadow priest spells that deal Fire damage now appear green.
Big freaky cereal boxes of death.

|Erasmus|
Branson
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:27 am UTC

Kain wrote:
|Erasmus| wrote:So, I actually played against someone going mass raven last night on ladder. I think the best thing I've ever seen was a fleet of a dozen or so ravens wander a bit too close to my 3/1 upgraded thors (about 6 of them). I think one raven was far enough way to not die to the splash.


That sounds awesome! (Of course, I hate Thors, so :( ).
I hate making those kind of mistakes: once sent a control group of 16ish mutas into a thor + turret guarded island, rather than the broodlords I had meant to send. Still won, but yeah, that as embarrassing.

haha.

I only went mass thors because I scouted the mass raven strat, and they are the one thing that ravens really cannot counter in any way. He tried to transition into a lot of siege tanks and turtle after that, but I just went with 4-5 thors attacking into his base, and dropped the rest on his siege tanks (I had plenty of time to just take the map and just build a tonne of thors in this game).


I also won a pretty good TvZ by going only tank/marine/medivac on the weekend. For all those saying it doesn't work well if you're not pro. It helped that he didn't go mutas, so I didn't have to worry about my tanks being sniped while I just sieged up and used them to defend the marines (also, Shakuras has a lot of cool places to drop tanks on the low ground and a few marines on the high ground).

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psion
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:54 am UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:See for me Terrans are the only race I don't transition into mutas with. Almost every Terran player has an army packed with either Marines or Thors and both of those hard counter mutas, eliminating their value as a harassment force.

I was stubborn to make mutas work against thor+marine builds. I don't anymore.

AI Micro. If only it were feasible.


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