Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Of the Tabletop, and other, lesser varieties.

Moderators: SecondTalon, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
TheBanana
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:13 pm UTC
Location: Arlington, VA

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:12 pm UTC

EvanED wrote:
mister k wrote:I just don't see the benefit over the current system. In the current system, even if you suck, you might suck less than some others, and go "hey, I'm top 20 in bronze!" If you were just one big number, its much less fun to say, "hey, I'm eight thousandth!"

Saying "hey, I'm eight thousandth!" is actually pretty cool. There's something psychologically satisfying about round numbers like that. Personally, I think that means rather more than "I'm top 20 among... some people"

And if you could actually see your rating, then you have the additional psychological benefit of milestones in that. Passing 1000, passing 1600, etc.


I like the current system because it mirrors the way my favorite sport (soccer) is done professionally i.e. Tiered leagues.

You have your 1st division (GM), 2nd division (masters), 3rd division (diamond) 4th division (plat) 5th division (gold) 6th division (silver) and 7th division (bronze).

Top in any of these divisions can probably take some games from mid to lower level players in the next division up but they still haven't quite earned the distinction of reaching that next level. So being top in your division let's you know that you can compete and gives you something to work towards.
- screen name: theBanana on SC2
gamer id: #256

EvanED
Posts: 4331
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:28 am UTC
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby EvanED » Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:33 pm UTC

TheBanana wrote:
EvanED wrote:Saying "hey, I'm eight thousandth!" is actually pretty cool. There's something psychologically satisfying about round numbers like that. Personally, I think that means rather more than "I'm top 20 among... some people"

And if you could actually see your rating, then you have the additional psychological benefit of milestones in that. Passing 1000, passing 1600, etc.


I like the current system because it mirrors the way my favorite sport (soccer) is done professionally i.e. Tiered leagues.

You have your 1st division (GM), 2nd division (masters), 3rd division (diamond) 4th division (plat) 5th division (gold) 6th division (silver) and 7th division (bronze).

Top in any of these divisions can probably take some games from mid to lower level players in the next division up but they still haven't quite earned the distinction of reaching that next level. So being top in your division let's you know that you can compete and gives you something to work towards.

The USCF also gives out titles (similar to the divisions) based on your ratings. For instance, once you hit 1200, you are "class D". Hit 1400, and you're "class C". Expert is 2000+, and master is 2200+. Jazz up the titles from "class C" a bit and IMO that satisfies your criteria.

Personally, I feel the league setup is just adding artificial divisions where there aren't any.

User avatar
rigwarl
Posts: 759
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:36 pm UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby rigwarl » Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:35 pm UTC

EvanED wrote:
mister k wrote:I just don't see the benefit over the current system. In the current system, even if you suck, you might suck less than some others, and go "hey, I'm top 20 in bronze!" If you were just one big number, its much less fun to say, "hey, I'm eight thousandth!"

Saying "hey, I'm eight thousandth!" is actually pretty cool. There's something psychologically satisfying about round numbers like that. Personally, I think that means rather more than "I'm top 20 among... some people"

And if you could actually see your rating, then you have the additional psychological benefit of milestones in that. Passing 1000, passing 1600, etc.


I think for very analytical players (many of us), we prefer transparency but I can definitely see the appeal of the current system. For example, I definitely took a screenshot when I made #1 in my division even though I knew it was a pretty arbitrary accomplishment, and there was that recent post about the 4v4 #1 Diamond xkcd team, which probably wouldn't have been made if the medal system wasn't in place- not that there's anything wrong with that, of course.

Also @BeardHammer, regarding "In a small sample size, it's gonna look lopsided, but over hundreds or thousands of games, statistically it'd even out, right?", surely you realize that 50% of the time you are the worse of the 2 players on your team? Do you think you deserve to get yelled at this 50% of the time because you are comparatively "bad" to your partner?

Also, SC2 does have a competitive/casual toggle: custom games. However I hope you're not suggesting that Master's league players such as TheBanana should confine themselves to custom games because they don't always play to win.

EvanED
Posts: 4331
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:28 am UTC
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby EvanED » Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:39 pm UTC

rigwarl wrote:I think for very analytical players (many of us), we prefer transparency but I can definitely see the appeal of the current system. For example, I definitely took a screenshot when I made #1 in my division even though I knew it was a pretty arbitrary accomplishment, and there was that recent post about the 4v4 #1 Diamond xkcd team, which probably wouldn't have been made if the medal system wasn't in place- not that there's anything wrong with that, of course.

No, you'd take a screenshot when you passed 1600 rating or whatever, instead. Or passed 8000 rank. OK, maybe it's a little less psychologically satisfying, but IMO it'd be rather more analytically satisfying.

User avatar
rigwarl
Posts: 759
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:36 pm UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby rigwarl » Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:16 pm UTC

I see what you're saying, but in practice, both my taking a screenshot and Ixtellor posting about the 4v4 team probably wouldn't have happened were it not for the medal system. But now that we're talking about it, I'm not sure why MMR is hidden- I can think of a few games with a "medal system" and a visible MMR.

User avatar
Coin
Posts: 884
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:21 pm UTC
Location: Uppsala
Contact:

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Coin » Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:44 pm UTC

Time for a derailment:
I have a novice friend who has no previous experience with the RTS genre and got the game two days ago.
He wants me to help him get into it and so I ask you, ladies and gentlemen, now that he has learned how the basic mechanics work, what would be the ideal way of teaching him?
He is an otherwise avid gamer and part of a decent TF2-team and pretty bright so he shouldn't have any difficulties understanding the game.
3fj wrote: "You, sir, have been added to my list of deities under 'God of Swedish meat'."

User avatar
Yakk
Poster with most posts but no title.
Posts: 11128
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:27 pm UTC
Location: E pur si muove

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:49 pm UTC

Do you know how to play?

The first thing that could be good is playing against the AI. Start off with easy, ramp up a difficulty at a time until you lose.

Next, the standard pointers:
1: As non-zerg, you should constantly be producing harvesting units (probes, SCVs) unless you have a reason to stop.
2: Hotkey your construction buildings. When idle, dance your hands over them so you are always aware of their status.
3: Keep an eye on your supply. "Supply block" means you deserve to die. In the initial game, build 1 at a time -- by the time you have 2-4 unit factories, start building them 2+ at a time.
4: Unspent resources are evil. If you have unspent resources, build a new factory building. Right now. Do it.
5: Demonstrate the power of micro. Show how a reasonably fast ranged unit, like stalkers, can beat a nigh-infinite number of zealots.
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

Last edited by JHVH on Fri Oct 23, 4004 BCE 6:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.

EvanED
Posts: 4331
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:28 am UTC
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby EvanED » Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:06 pm UTC

Like I've said a few times, I don't play all that much, and almost never in PvP (that's player-vs-player, not protoss-vs-protoss), so take what I said with a grain of salt. That said, for someone who doesn't play much, I'm probably half decent.

Yakk wrote:Do you know how to play?

The first thing that could be good is playing against the AI. Start off with easy, ramp up a difficulty at a time until you lose.

Next, the standard pointers:
1: As non-zerg, you should constantly be producing harvesting units (probes, SCVs) unless you have a reason to stop.

For beginners, I'd scratch that for the reason that if you think you have a reason to stop worker production, you're more likely to be wrong than right. I see two reasons to cut production: because your build order requires it, and because you have all you need. I think the first reason gives too much to think about early on -- you shouldn't worry too much about build orders until you have mechanics down fairly well. (I mean, you can get a general idea of things to do, like "build a couple gateways then a robo then a robo bay then collossus", but "build this building on this many workers/this much gas/this time" or whatever is too much.) The second reason probably won't come up too often. If you really want, you can say "If you think you've got 60 or 70 workers (or whatever is a good number for beginners), flip through your bases, select all of them, and count. If you do, you can stop."

2: Hotkey your construction buildings. When idle, dance your hands over them so you are always aware of their status.

Units too. :-) It's obvious but... maybe not. Also, don't click buttons in the lower-right panel; learn those hotkeys. (For a while I except buttons you only press a couple times in a game, like upgrades.)

3: Keep an eye on your supply. "Supply block" means you deserve to die. In the initial game, build 1 at a time -- by the time you have 2-4 unit factories, start building them 2+ at a time.

This is so hard... this is my worst part of mechanics. :-)

5: Demonstrate the power of micro. Show how a reasonably fast ranged unit, like stalkers, can beat a nigh-infinite number of zealots.

As the yang for your yin, I'd say that beginners should generally prefer to macro and just A-move if they have to choose between one or the other. (Exception: early pushes, when there's not all that much macro to do, you don't have all that many units to control, and losing a battle by two units is likely to be much worse than later in the game.)

One final thing: concentrate on one thing at a time. Don't try to improve worker production and mules/chrono/queens and watching supply and building units and scouting and looking at the minimap and harassing and microing and expanding and perfecting your build order in one game. Instead, try to play a few games with the deliberate goal to never get supply blocked, even if the extra attention you're paying to that means that your macro slips or something like that. Then change it up.

User avatar
Yakk
Poster with most posts but no title.
Posts: 11128
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:27 pm UTC
Location: E pur si muove

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:22 pm UTC

Oh, and watch world championships 'casts by good 'casters. Just 'cause it is mind boggling. :)
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

Last edited by JHVH on Fri Oct 23, 4004 BCE 6:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.

User avatar
Jesse
Vocal Terrorist
Posts: 8635
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:33 pm UTC
Location: Basingstoke, England.
Contact:

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Jesse » Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:36 pm UTC

Direct them to the Day9 newbie Tuesdays, as they were a big boon to me when I started playing. Also, I found that my passion for the game grew with watching casts on youtube, should you know fo any good ones *cough*VocTerGaming*cough*

User avatar
mister k
Posts: 643
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:28 pm UTC
Contact:

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby mister k » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:09 pm UTC

casts are definitely worth watching. I think total biscuit's live sc playing are good, he is quite bitter, but you get to see his thought processes and see, very clearly where he goes wrong (in every single zerg match up he ever does, I keep telling him to build vikings, and it makes me realise that I might need vikings too... (note, he's probably a better player than me in practice, but obviously we can all be better theoretical players than practical ones).

-For your race, learn some simple build orders. Print them out and try them against a very easy AI. In particular, for terrans the 1-1-1 build is nice to learn, because its incredibly adaptable.
-For learning micro, a very simple way to get a bit better, and what I currently do, is just remember that you have a hotkey of S for stop. So with any ranged unit against melee units, run them away, his stop, when they get closer, run away again. You can try this on the challenge missions with hellions vs zerg, and see how effective it is (its actually kinda ridiculous how much of a difference it makes)
-Play some randoms online. When you get trounced, watch the replay, and see what they did. They probably macroed better- see how they did it. In particular, watch the worker count, because you will inevitably have less workers than your opponent.
-Hotkeying construction buildings is vital. Find a combination you are comfortable with. For instance, as terran I have CC at 5, marine barracks at 6, marauder barracks at 7, factory at 8, starport at 9 (occasionally if it matters I split the starport).
-Hotkeying units is important, but less vital for grouping. Start with one hotkey for your army, then try and add hotkeys for special units (siege tanks, ghosts)

My advice here is for terrans, who I'm used to. I actually think protoss are quite a friendly race in many ways. In my eyes Zerg are the hardest to get to grips with, but thats just my feeling.
Elvish Pillager wrote:you're basically a daytime-miller: you always come up as guilty to scumdar.

Beardhammer
Posts: 565
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:40 am UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:52 am UTC

rigwarl wrote:Also @BeardHammer, regarding "In a small sample size, it's gonna look lopsided, but over hundreds or thousands of games, statistically it'd even out, right?", surely you realize that 50% of the time you are the worse of the 2 players on your team? Do you think you deserve to get yelled at this 50% of the time because you are comparatively "bad" to your partner?


I wouldn't have a problem with it. Considering that's how I am, it's what I expect of others as well. Frankly, though, I'm better than all three other players in the vast majority of games I've played in 2v2 random team lately. I can think of exactly one guy on one team that was in top 8 Master's for his team division (it was random team vs arranged team) that I would definitely say is a better player than me. I went 3gate/robo since I figured he'd spam Stalkers like most Protoss do... and he did, except he went for Blink and kicked my ass with freaking awesome Blink micro. Immortals? LOL, what Immortals? I need to check the replay to see if his macro suffered while he was microing his Blink.

Yakk wrote:Do you know how to play?

The first thing that could be good is playing against the AI. Start off with easy, ramp up a difficulty at a time until you lose.

Next, the standard pointers:
1: As non-zerg, you should constantly be producing harvesting units (probes, SCVs) unless you have a reason to stop.
2: Hotkey your construction buildings. When idle, dance your hands over them so you are always aware of their status.
3: Keep an eye on your supply. "Supply block" means you deserve to die. In the initial game, build 1 at a time -- by the time you have 2-4 unit factories, start building them 2+ at a time.
4: Unspent resources are evil. If you have unspent resources, build a new factory building. Right now. Do it.
5: Demonstrate the power of micro. Show how a reasonably fast ranged unit, like stalkers, can beat a nigh-infinite number of zealots.


#5 is already covered by the micro challenge thingies. The other four could use some discussing, though.

Really, I think the best way of doing things would be similar to the way they have it now - you can play practice league games and vs the AI as much as you want, then you get your feet wet in 1v1. I'd say you aren't allowed to queue for team games until you've at least placed in 1v1, but that's only five games.

TheBanana wrote:So you're a rusher who rushes every game. I hate it when people play like this in general because their strategies are boring, repetitive and easily crushed as long as you're not being lazy/greedy. Strategies like this require the bare minimum of skill. I generally prefer longer games because the longer the game goes on the more likely it is that the better player(s) wins and I also play team games to have fun and not do the exact same strategy / series of strategies every freaking game.


I know you play with Psion so I'm assuming you're a good player, since it's pretty obvious Psion knows what he's talking about. If both teams perform a rush, and they're equally skilled at producing the rush (in other words, they know the build orders and generally don't make mistakes like forgetting to build an overlord), who comes out on top boils down to positioning and micro - same as if it was a push at 25 minutes, though if you have two armies slamming into each other at 25 minutes, micro kinda flies out the window given the sheer number of units involved. Assuming you don't get caught horribly out of positioning (which scouting will help with!) or just attack-move, neither rush will "kill" anyone, though whoever had the best micro and positioning may have an advantage. From there, it's play as normal, and the game-ending pushes typically occur before 15 minutes, usually around 11-12 minutes. You'll see a few 9-range Colossi, Siege Tanks and Stim, Infestors with Pathogen Glands and Roach speed/burrow, etc.

I'd hardly say it's the same thing every game - unless we're playing people that don't scout or don't rush themselves (most people rush, very few scout properly so far) and they die to the initial 6 minute push. Although we're playing people in high Master's by this point, I'm not convinced they're the best the game has to offer.

Once you get to high diamond / masters level 2v2, you're never matched with someone who doesn't know what they're doing. At least I haven't been since I got diamond in season one...


False. At least, in my experience. I was top Diamond last season for an extended period, and I was still getting idiots from Gold on my team or on the enemy team (people who actually belonged in Gold, not people who got placed wrong.) I eventually stopped caring and ended up in Gold at the end of the season.

Of course, I wasn't as good last season as I am now, but I do feel that Diamond was an accurate assessment of my skill in 2v2. It might not be for 1v1 (I think high Platinum/low Diamond would be more accurate for 1v1), but it was for 2v2.

psion wrote:It's psychologically the difference between the slot machine and climbing a mountain.


I can agree with that. I prefer the mountain climbing ("Only 3,233 feet to the top!") to the slot machine, but I guess since Battle.net 2.0 (and, presumably, aspects of SC2's Battle.net system) were in part designed by dudes who did Xbox LIVE!, it'd suit the morons that play those games better ;P

User avatar
Coin
Posts: 884
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:21 pm UTC
Location: Uppsala
Contact:

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Coin » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:49 am UTC

Thanks for all the tips and ideas!
I've passed them on, referencing "my knowledgeable friends on xkcd".
We ended up playing a few 2v2s against bots to get some feeling for the controlls as well as see how a simple terran build order can work out, then we continued with a 1v1 between him and an Easy AI and then against a Normal AI. After that we did some more 2v2s on his request.

He has grasped the idea of keeping the worker production up, though he tends to keep the que full. That should dissapear as he learns that he could use that money elsewhere =)
3fj wrote: "You, sir, have been added to my list of deities under 'God of Swedish meat'."

User avatar
TheBanana
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:13 pm UTC
Location: Arlington, VA

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:05 pm UTC

Beardhammer wrote:I know you play with Psion so I'm assuming you're a good player, since it's pretty obvious Psion knows what he's talking about. If both teams perform a rush, and they're equally skilled at producing the rush (in other words, they know the build orders and generally don't make mistakes like forgetting to build an overlord), who comes out on top boils down to positioning and micro - same as if it was a push at 25 minutes, though if you have two armies slamming into each other at 25 minutes, micro kinda flies out the window given the sheer number of units involved. Assuming you don't get caught horribly out of positioning (which scouting will help with!) or just attack-move, neither rush will "kill" anyone, though whoever had the best micro and positioning may have an advantage. From there, it's play as normal, and the game-ending pushes typically occur before 15 minutes, usually around 11-12 minutes. You'll see a few 9-range Colossi, Siege Tanks and Stim, Infestors with Pathogen Glands and Roach speed/burrow, etc.

I'd hardly say it's the same thing every game - unless we're playing people that don't scout or don't rush themselves (most people rush, very few scout properly so far) and they die to the initial 6 minute push. Although we're playing people in high Master's by this point, I'm not convinced they're the best the game has to offer.


The game is more than just about armies clashing though. Which I guess is my point. Although I will admit that positioning and micro are key to any engagement (especially the larger ones). A measure of skill is your ability to harass, your ability to defend harassment, your sense of expansion timings, counters to unit compositions, upgrade timings and even building placement. Most of these skills end up being unused in 6 minute games though. So the better players usually win the longer games because they get to utilize all their skills.

And generally speaking in my games both teams do not rush as I only rush maybe 1 in 5 games and I find that a lot of times my opponents aren't rushing much either. Now if you're speaking of pressure builds instead of rush builds then we're on entirely different pages cause I almost always do two barracks play to start off in team games because it allows me a good number of units to pressure with or defend with if that may be the case. If I scout a rush I can throw down a couple of bunkers at the choke and there you go. I can also expand quickly off of two rax and flow seamlessly into longer games.

If I rushed however, I would generally do a 3 rax (2 tech lab, 1/ reactor) kind of build or 4 rax build while cutting scvs etc etc. Any of which would most likely leave me economically behind my opponent if they defend the attack. (assuming they weren't using similarly un-economic builds as well)

Beardhammer wrote:
Once you get to high diamond / masters level 2v2, you're never matched with someone who doesn't know what they're doing. At least I haven't been since I got diamond in season one...


False. At least, in my experience. I was top Diamond last season for an extended period, and I was still getting idiots from Gold on my team or on the enemy team (people who actually belonged in Gold, not people who got placed wrong.) I eventually stopped caring and ended up in Gold at the end of the season.

Of course, I wasn't as good last season as I am now, but I do feel that Diamond was an accurate assessment of my skill in 2v2. It might not be for 1v1 (I think high Platinum/low Diamond would be more accurate for 1v1), but it was for 2v2.
[/quote]

Well I can't speak for who you're being matched up with because maybe I've just been getting lucky. But I've noticed that most of my partners are either diamond or masters in 1v1 and always at least diamond in 2v2 which generally translates into a decent 2v2 partner.
- screen name: theBanana on SC2
gamer id: #256

User avatar
Menacing Spike
Posts: 2982
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:25 pm UTC
Location: Fighting the Zombie.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:23 pm UTC

EvanED wrote:For beginners, I'd scratch that for the reason that if you think you have a reason to stop worker production, you're more likely to be wrong than right. I see two reasons to cut production: because your build order requires it, and because you have all you need.


"Oh, I immediately disagree on the first sentence, must be beardha..." *looks at username* "... it's not?"

There is a third, very good reason: you may be facing an all-in and need all the ressources to defend, with long-term economy not being an issue.

User avatar
mister k
Posts: 643
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:28 pm UTC
Contact:

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby mister k » Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:34 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:
EvanED wrote:For beginners, I'd scratch that for the reason that if you think you have a reason to stop worker production, you're more likely to be wrong than right. I see two reasons to cut production: because your build order requires it, and because you have all you need.


"Oh, I immediately disagree on the first sentence, must be beardha..." *looks at username* "... it's not?"

There is a third, very good reason: you may be facing an all-in and need all the ressources to defend, with long-term economy not being an issue.



indeed, thats actually an important skill to look for. If a protoss probe scouts you, make sure to check it doesn't lay a pylon. If you see protoss have built a forge, immediately scout your entire area to check for hidden pylons. Thats the most frequent early attack you'll face.

The challenge mode actually has you practice using scvs to kill zerg, which is what you need to practice against 6/7 pool, just make sure to surround the zerg and don't get surrounded yourself. For terran, I've actually never faced proxy barracks +bunker rush, as I don't think its very good vs terran, but carefully building up ones army and fending off harrassment. It'd be worth trying all these rushes against each other (you can see videos of them online) to see how to fight them off. They're actually kind of fun to do, and for terran and zerg their rushes actually requires careful micro (less so for toss)
Elvish Pillager wrote:you're basically a daytime-miller: you always come up as guilty to scumdar.

EvanED
Posts: 4331
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:28 am UTC
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby EvanED » Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:46 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:
EvanED wrote:For beginners, I'd scratch that for the reason that if you think you have a reason to stop worker production, you're more likely to be wrong than right. I see two reasons to cut production: because your build order requires it, and because you have all you need.


"Oh, I immediately disagree on the first sentence, must be beardha..." *looks at username* "... it's not?"

There is a third, very good reason: you may be facing an all-in and need all the ressources to defend, with long-term economy not being an issue.

Ah, that thought didn't occur to me because I naturally stop production in such situations because I'm too busy with other stuff and not good enough to even be able to have kept up worker production if I wanted to. ;-)

I'll back off my statement a bit... my thinking was that it's a lot easier to go "oh, I have enough workers, so I'll stop now" than it is to actually have enough workers, and that you should always actually get an approximate count (by flipping through your bases and selecting them) before you take that action. At least until you've played a ton.

User avatar
Goldstein
Posts: 985
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:38 pm UTC
Location: Newcastle, UK

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Goldstein » Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:48 pm UTC

Just got cannon rushed for the first time ever. Bit disappointed with how it went as I thought I did everything right, but there you go.

A friend and I have been playing 2v2 and both going random - I was Terran for this one, which is definitely my weakest race. We were on some weird map where all four players were spaced very far apart and we scouted them early. I didn't see anything in the Protoss base so I naturally assumed some sort of cheese as I've just watched so many When Cheese Fails casts. I sent my SCV back to explore the fringe of my base, but didn't encounter anything. I was just finishing my barracks when the cannons appeared on the edge of my vision, and they blocked my only ramp so I lifted off and spent ages getting my SCVs to cut a path through some destructible rocks to an expansion. In hindsight, I should have had them run past the cannons and settled in near my teammate, but I chose this option. His probe was ready for me by the time I got to the other side, but I managed to get out a reaper and sent it down to his base. It did a fine job of cutting up his workers and he had nothing else there, but his teammate came in with a bunch of marines and I was forced to retreat. I had to move my base again after that - I didn't have time in either spot to get up a barracks - and I eventually got over nearer my teammate, but their Terran guy did Marine drops into my teammate's base and crippled him, so that was really game. I managed to get a little base back up and had a few marines and marauders running around, but they were nothing compared to the Medivac-backed group of the other team and his stim upgrade.

I suppose I'm most disappointed that I wasn't quick enough to have a barracks up. I think it's because I'd already decided I was going to get a couple of early reapers and the refinery slowed down my barracks a bit much. Even though it looked so much like he was doing a cannon rush or proxy gateway and I even said as much to my teammate, I didn't really believe it.
Chuff wrote:I write most of my letters from the bottom

Beardhammer
Posts: 565
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:40 am UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:36 pm UTC

TheBanana wrote:The game is more than just about armies clashing though. Which I guess is my point. Although I will admit that positioning and micro are key to any engagement (especially the larger ones). A measure of skill is your ability to harass, your ability to defend harassment, your sense of expansion timings, counters to unit compositions, upgrade timings and even building placement. Most of these skills end up being unused in 6 minute games though. So the better players usually win the longer games because they get to utilize all their skills.

And generally speaking in my games both teams do not rush as I only rush maybe 1 in 5 games and I find that a lot of times my opponents aren't rushing much either. Now if you're speaking of pressure builds instead of rush builds then we're on entirely different pages cause I almost always do two barracks play to start off in team games because it allows me a good number of units to pressure with or defend with if that may be the case. If I scout a rush I can throw down a couple of bunkers at the choke and there you go. I can also expand quickly off of two rax and flow seamlessly into longer games.


How so? Nearly every game is decided with a single fight, whether it's at 6 minutes or 30 minutes - at least, in 2v2. Hell, HDStarcraft has a few 2v2 games up with Supsons vs EG (Supsons kicks the shit out of the EG guys, it's really quite pathetic how badly EG loses, but I guess you can't expect much from the team Idra's on), and while they (stupidly) don't rush in any of the games, each game ends with a single fight. I just don't see where micro really makes a difference when you have 800 supply worth of units slamming into each other - the only thing that makes a difference is positioning, and frankly most of the 2v2 maps outright suck ass for that kind of thing. Micro matters a hell of a lot when you're pushing at 6 minutes or 10 minutes, much moreso than an attack-move max supply deadblob at 20 minutes.

As for response, I still don't see how not rushing puts you in a better position. If we open with 7RR (extractor trick, pool at 11, drone to 15, gas, then queen as soon as pool is done, and overlords at 17 and 18 supply, then 7 roaches as soon as warren pops, which should happen at the same time inject finishes), we aren't really behind in economy, and even if you bunkered up on your ramp, we're still free to expand behind the roaches, while also denying your ability to expand. A tech swap to Marauders or Siege Tanks could be punishing, but if we fail to scout it, that's our damn fault. I've also been favoring a macro hatch speedling opening on the same time, using the same general build (pool at 11, drones to 15, gas, etc etc, usually one less overlord starting out, instead using the 100+150 from the warren for the macro hatch.) It doesn't work without ranged support (marines, roaches, stalkers), but it's ridiculously good with it. You can very, very rapidly saturate two bases with drones from three hatcheries, and it's extremely difficult for the enemy to expand or push out without a huge army, given how many zerglings you can pop out on demand. Blue flames obviously work very well with this, and we did beat a ZZ team doing 7RR/speedling by going Marauder/blue flame while my partner spammed speedlings, but it was pretty close - my partner lost his main before I could get enough blue flames on the field to permanently shut down enemy speedlings, and we made a game-ending push before they could get mutas out.

What I don't get is where you think we'd stop producing workers. Even running 4rax marines to go with his 7RR, I never stop (never HAVE to stop) making SCVs. I immediately resume drone production after the initial 7RR/~20 lings or so in the Zerg opener, and I never stop Probe production in a 4gate or 3gate/robo opener. The Zerg opening DOES stop drone production temporarily due to larva concerns (if you use a larva on drones your 7th roach will be late), but given how quickly you can drone back up, it's not a huge issue.

Again, what I feel needs to be emphasized here is that rushing doesn't cost you anything in 2v2 - it's why we rush every game. It can end the game immediately if they suck at scouting or aren't prepared, and even if they do scout and prepare for it, it allows us to maintain map control, giving us plenty of time to tech or expand, while also knowing exactly what they're doing and making it extremely difficult for them to expand before we do. I've seen people try things like a rushed Banshee (doesn't work because you will have enough AA to handle a banshee and will have turrets before cloak finishes), rushed blue flames (the hit occurs well before blue flame finishes and rushing blue flame leaves you very weak), and even a Dark Templar rush (lack of gas means little but zealots to defend until DTs arrive and it's easy enough to pop a quick lair and get an overseer out), and none of it works. FE builds similarly get you killed - you just don't have enough of an army to defend with against a good push. The only thing that's gonna stop an initial push of 7 roaches and ~8 marines hitting at around 5:30-6:00 is... 7 roaches and 8 marines, or something relatively similar to that, maybe with a spine crawler or bunker to ensure you get the upper hand.

|Erasmus|
Branson
Posts: 2643
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:53 am UTC
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:44 pm UTC

Beardhammer wrote:What I don't get is where you think we'd stop producing workers. Even running 4rax marines to go with his 7RR, I never stop (never HAVE to stop) making SCVs. I immediately resume drone production after the initial 7RR/~20 lings or so in the Zerg opener, and I never stop Probe production in a 4gate or 3gate/robo opener. The Zerg opening DOES stop drone production temporarily due to larva concerns (if you use a larva on drones your 7th roach will be late), but given how quickly you can drone back up, it's not a huge issue.


I never really play team games, but this is just silly. It's not all about the worker count. While you spam marines out of 4 rax and don't take gas so you never stop scv production, just assume I made 2 rax and a bunker (which holds that easy) and either expanded or took 2 gases, so now I have +1 and stim and medivacs on the way to support them.

There are a -lot- of ways you can get behind that are not just on worker count when you rush and your opponent doesn't. I'm not going to go into the issues with 2 player maps and how both players doing fast rushes it gets a lot stronger, but assuming both players with a shared ramp do a safe opening that should hold either 1 of the rushes coming, they should come out ahead on either economy or tech (or both).

And the idiots you are playing against in 2v2 who rush banshees or blue flame without building bunkers don't really deserve to be used as an example.


I played a TvT last night. I opened 1-1-1, taking two gases, built a viking out of my starport, then proceeded to expand while being 6-rax all-ined and hold comfortably. Most of the team games I've played have been similar stories. You get rushed, but just do a safe opening that doesn't sacrifice as much tech/economy as a rush, and you get far ahead...

Goldstein wrote:I suppose I'm most disappointed that I wasn't quick enough to have a barracks up. I think it's because I'd already decided I was going to get a couple of early reapers and the refinery slowed down my barracks a bit much. Even though it looked so much like he was doing a cannon rush or proxy gateway and I even said as much to my teammate, I didn't really believe it.

Don't go gas first to get reapers. 12 rax, 13 gas, make 1 marine, then add a tech lab and switch into reapers. That opening should be great against a cannon rush. The most important thing against a cannon rush is to kill the probe. If they can't make more cannons, they can't push any closer to your CC/barracks/whatever.

Beardhammer
Posts: 565
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:40 am UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:34 am UTC

Sorry dude, but bunkers aren't going to stop a 7RR/marine push. You'll kill most of the roaches, none of the marines, and once the bunkers are down you have nothing left, and there's nothing you can do to stem the tide of reinforcements we have streaming across the map.

And that's assuming it's a shared-ramp map, and we aren't slamming your buddy instead. See, if you go 2rax/bunkers, YOU might be able to stop the push, but if your buddy can't (spine crawlers can't do shit), you can't really help him, either. Stim nor +1 will be done in time, and as I've said... doing 4rax marines or 7RR doesn't hurt us economically one bit. 7RR already has your gas going, and it's not hard to take both gas as Terran once your MULEs start pitching in. Likewise, Protoss gets both gas running just as a normal build, so it's not like Protoss is out anything, either. Shit, if I'm Protoss, we'll push up your ramp and laugh in your face as Guardian Shield shits all over your marines and Force Field prevents your SCVs from repairing.

Honestly, I can't think of ANY maps currently in ladder rotation that feature a shared ramp AND don't have multiple means of entry. The only map that fits that, period, would have to be Twilight Fortress, and there's a reason they took that map out of rotation.

|Erasmus|
Branson
Posts: 2643
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:53 am UTC
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:46 am UTC

so it's the maps, and not the format that are the problem? 7RR and even 6 rax marine all-ins are easy to hold with repaired bunkers. Spines do quite well against both types of units. With a few lings to either tank or deal damage with them, you should clean up either type of push (obviously given that it's scouted). So the only remaining problem is isolated ramps...

welcome to blizzard, mate :)

Beardhammer
Posts: 565
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:40 am UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:43 am UTC

|Erasmus| wrote:so it's the maps, and not the format that are the problem? 7RR and even 6 rax marine all-ins are easy to hold with repaired bunkers. Spines do quite well against both types of units. With a few lings to either tank or deal damage with them, you should clean up either type of push (obviously given that it's scouted). So the only remaining problem is isolated ramps...

welcome to blizzard, mate :)


Haha, I know right? :mrgreen:

I've heard the rush distance on test1 2v2 is something like 27 seconds. That's... 2 seconds longer than Steppes? Yeah, that map's going on the veto list. Only question is... which shit map do I allow back into my rotation in order to veto the somewhat shittier map?

The main issue with Spine Crawlers (and Cannons) is that they can't really be repaired. You won't have enough Queens with energy to reliably transfuse, and if you make Cannons as toss, your Warpgate tech or army are going to be severely hamstrung.

User avatar
TheBanana
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:13 pm UTC
Location: Arlington, VA

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:10 pm UTC

Beardhammer wrote:
What I don't get is where you think we'd stop producing workers. Again, what I feel needs to be emphasized here is that rushing doesn't cost you anything in 2v2 - it's why we rush every game.


I've encountered this situation many a time and you end up behind because while you're rushing with 4 barracks and 7rr I'm either expanding off of two barracks or teching up so that i'll either have stim, cloaked banshees, or tanks. Also, the 7rr leaves you economically behind no matter what because you'll have a late expo as zerg, no lair (gas going to roaches) and less minerals because you're mining all that gas that you spent on roaches and obviously fewer drones AND you're at a huge risk to any early zergling pressure.

And yes bunkers would hold and 2 bunkers would do it with minimal help from my ally. And depending on the map the bunkers would be placed at the choke not on top of the ramps. I'd never put down bunkers at the top of a non-shared ramp anyway unless it was to deter a 6 pool or proxy barracks/gateway or something.
Roaches don't have the dps to kill bunkers quickly (as long as scvs are repairing) so as long as I target fire the marines and then focus on the roaches it's all done. And on almost all maps I WILL have bunkers because 4 rax / 7rr rushes are among the easiest things to scout for and are extremely slow pushes. You have to throw down a roach warren before / as you get a queen for god's sake.

So at the end of it all, I've taken minimal damage and am ahead of you in expansions and/or tech soooooooo yeah GG.

Hell, I've held rushes like that with speedlings alone just by threatening the counter attack and never letting them move out.

*Just to clarify* There are a couple maps in the map pool where your strategy is probably best, I can't remember their names off the top of my head but I have them all vetoed so they almost never come up. But then again there are at least a couple maps where the rush distance is large enough that your rush strategy would be completely impossible. I'm speaking about strategies for the map pool in general though.


Also, just noticed that Erasmus covered a lot of this already in his post haha.

*EDIT* I'll have to save some of my 2v2 replays from whenever I defend rushes like this and post em to show you :D
- screen name: theBanana on SC2
gamer id: #256

User avatar
rigwarl
Posts: 759
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:36 pm UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby rigwarl » Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:39 pm UTC

Beardhammer wrote:Frankly, though, I'm better than all three other players in the vast majority of games I've played in 2v2 random team lately.


I agree that a cold streak can be frustrating, but as you mentioned earlier, just keep in mind that it'll average out over the long run so that you're only doing the best 1/4 of the time. Hopefully that can help with your morale =P

I agree with EvanED on the "don't stop making workers". Of course there are situations where this is not optimal, but it is unlikely that a beginner will encounter them frequently. Similarly, if they get 6 pooled, I would suggest selecting all their workers and A-moving. Not optimal, but very simple and it's good enough and what I would recommend for a beginner.

@mister k
about the challenge where you can micro SCV's vs zerglings, considering the part2 of that challenge, it's clear that the intended strategy in part1 is just to wall your ramp (losing 0 units is very tough otherwise). Furthermore the challenge plays at half-speed or something compared to ladder games so I don't think it's a good place to practice micro.

User avatar
psion
Posts: 1089
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:33 am UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:54 am UTC

I can't say I agree with tehbannar. I'd like to believe that it can be scouted and punished, but I don't find it to be true in practice. Do post some replays, but even if you do have some convincing games, I'm pretty sure only terran can hold it and only on specific maps.

Beardhammer
Posts: 565
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:40 am UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:17 am UTC

psion wrote:I can't say I agree with tehbannar. I'd like to believe that it can be scouted and punished, but I don't find it to be true in practice. Do post some replays, but even if you do have some convincing games, I'm pretty sure only terran can hold it and only on specific maps.


I've been experimenting with a macro hatch speedling build that hits about the same time as 7RR (5:30-6:00) but is a LOT more effective against an enemy that tries to be aggressive. See, 7RR does have an uncomfortable moment after the inital 7 roaches where you need to make another overlord (you're at 32/34 after the roaches pop), but you also want to get some drones going... and maybe want to get ling speed since lings are incredibly deadly early-game against enemies trying to push (flank/surround, or bypass and hit their base.) 7RR+marines is still absurdly effective, but I've been having a LOT of success using the macro hatch lings build lately. The only things I've seen being major issues are blue flames (not even a huge problem until they get several hellions - two or three can easily be handled by sheer weight of numbers, and going for quick blue flames cripples bio production) or lots of zealots (can also be handled by sheer weight of numbers, and easily outmanuevered as well.) Well, somehow I imagine banelings would also be problematic... but you can outmanuever them, too.

The build I've been using is very similar to the 7RR build: drones to 10, extractor trick to 11, overlord at 100 mins, then pool at 200 mins. Drones back up to 14, drop your gas, drone up to 15, pop queen when spawning pool finishes, pop overlord at 17, and continue from there. Usually drop the macro hatch a bit later than the roach warren (you can drop it earlier if you want to delay ling speed), and usually just go pure drones until it gets close to push time. I can usually push out a good 20+ lings before the push happens, ling speed finishes about the same time the push hits, and since the macro hatch goes up at the same time the push hits, it means a constant stream of speedlings. It's worked very well so far, and even worked out really well when we did some 3v3s last night (ZZR, I got Protoss most games and just went robo-heavy.) I'd consider banelings to be the best early-game solution, but it's extremely difficult to use them aggessively without speed, and lings can outrun them quite easily, which leaves them in a position of mostly "mobile wall." Again, blue flames works great, but you need several hellions to significantly impact the 60+ lings you'll see running all over the place (unless you could box them in with, say, force fields.)

As a side note: is a 50% move speed boost really necessary for Stimpack, on top of Concussive Shells? I keep hearing people say "lol just kite them dood" as an answer to an all-in stimpack timing (which isn't all-in in a 2v2, of course), and I'm not really sure how they say that with a straight face. Stimmed MM moves much faster than pretty much everything but zerglings at that particular timing (before blink, before roach speed, etc), and you can FORGET about using roaches or zealots at all - they'll just be kited in circles and do minimal damage. Shit, even Chargelots - who are ostenisbly good against both Marines and Marauders - don't really do that great against stimmed MM. Even stimmed Marines can engage Chargelots pretty cost-effectively with good stutterstep, and if you add Marauders to the mix the ONLY time you're gonna land hits is during the actual charge.

I know Terran needs the movement speed since the entire race is rather slow otherwise, but is it REALLY necessary to combine Concussive Shells with it? Maybe my real beef is with Concussive Shells, since the only time Stimpack's move speed bonus really irritates me is when Concussive Shells are involved as well. This, of course, is even MORE reinforcement for why I feel you need to rush every single game - they won't have Stimpack done in time, and won't have a critical mass of Marauders by that point, either.

User avatar
psion
Posts: 1089
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:33 am UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:35 am UTC

That sounds like it'd cut into larva when you make the hatch, and would leave you more vulnerable to the attack for no immediate gains. If you can defend it you're in a good position, but I don't think you should be able to in most situations, at least not without taking more damage than it's worth.

It's actually really tiring for me to process what you described. I have to run it through every map and every race combination. Most builds for every race on every map and assess the likelihood of them being seen as to how risky/hardcounter-y they are. The allies race and probable capability and position on every map against every build and race combination (and this is where shit really hits the fan). You can talk about hellions vs lings all you want, but it has no respect to the production capability of both players across the entire game up until the point of the engagement, or units lost earlier on for whatever reason, or... stuff.

That's pretty much why I feel there's a very low skill ceiling in team games. Maybe I can squeeze a win out with better mechanics now and then in 2v2, but 3v3 and 4v4 the skill ceiling becomes more like a crawl space. It's almost like playing Chess when you can only view the pieces of the opponent that are within one move from yours. You could use skill to deduce the location of the opponent's pieces, and try to scout for things with relatively safe moves. But if you quadruple the board size, the pieces, and the number of players... it just becomes a fuckfest. No one can really communicate, no one can make deductions because there's too many possibilities with too much to register too fast. The players can only react to what they see as they see it, if they even notice.

Beardhammer
Posts: 565
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:40 am UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:51 am UTC

psion wrote:The players can only react to what they see as they see it, if they even notice.


What's wrong with the first part, though? Isn't that what they do in 1v1? Sure seems like it. Most times I see a pro try to predict the other player, he gets it wrong and loses a mineral line to Mutalisks because he was too stubborn to throw up a few turrets. Why else would scouting be so critically important, if it wasn't so players can react to what they see?

Doing 3v3 as a team, we played only other teams, and while a couple teams had a definite weak link, I felt most players were pretty decent. All but one game (our first game, which was on that "odd man out go suck a dick" map, I think it's Colony 328, which we veto'd immediately after) were really just money wars, which was honestly a nice change of pace from 2v2. We did have one team attempt a triple 6pool on us and we dominated them (I always scout with one of my initial 6 peons vs teams which are all-zerg or zerg and randoms), but otherwise I actually really enjoyed the pacing in 3v3. Rushing doesn't feel as strong there (partly due to map design, since you typically all three share bases/chokes?), and while it still didn't have the back and forth 1v1 has, I enjoyed the money wars. Most maps only have a natural for each player, and a couple only had two defensible naturals, leaving one player odd man out. Lots of harass and prodding in those games. We won simply because we'd cause major losses for them without incurring major losses ourselves, they'd realize it, and gg out. Much nicer than having to spend the last 10 minutes of a game proving to the other two idiots that they lost 10 minutes ago.

As to the ling thing, I don't think it really matters based on map. We veto Discord IV, High Orbit, and Red Stone Gulch as a matter of course (because they SUCK), and it's worked fine on other maps. I've only had one guy try to rush Hellions on me, and it didn't work - blue flames wasn't even started (according to the replay) when the hit happened, and I think he had like one or two Hellions and a handful of Marines - not enough to dent my ling production, really. We did win a game against a Roach/ling build much like what we do when I get Zerg, and we won by me pumping Marauders and blue flames while he pumped lings (mostly as sprinting, yapping speedbumps), but it definitely wasn't over during that 6-minute window, and in fact I think the only reason we even survived to win was because I opened with 3rax marines (making 2x gas instead of a 4th rax) and played defensive with bunkers when we scouted the macro hatch. It was on Monlyth Ridge.

As it is, I've seen some weaknesses in the 7RR opening (as I said, there's a little 1-2 minute window where it feels like your economy is in the shitter, but that could just be perception), but beyond problems breaching reinforced ramps (spines, bunkers, sentries), the ling opening doesn't seem to have a major weakness.

Basically, the way it works out when the hit happens is this:

- Metabolic Boost is nearly done (typically 80%ish or so, it typically finishes just after we reach their ramps, or slightly before, depends on distance)
- Lings are made around 4:50-5:10, again depending on map and roach timing; this is usually around 20-22 food (so 18-20 peons)
- Macro hatch should be at or beyond 50% before the push begins (maybe as far as 70% when push hits their ramps)
- Larva production isn't impacted by building a macro hatch, though worker production has to be briefly halted (for about 10 seconds tops)
- I could probably maintain worker production by pulling drones off the gas as soon as I hit the 100 for speed; I prefer keeping them on the gas so I can seamlessly switch to banelings or +1 attack as needed (or lair)

The ling/macro hatch build really hits its stride shortly after the macro hatch pops. I have the queen alternate injects between the two hatches, and depending on how things are, I can either pump drones and VERY rapidly saturate a base, or continue pumping lings. Once you get your expansion running (/w Queen), it's pretty nice having 17+ larva on hand after each injection cycle finishes. After I can afford a Queen for the macro hatch, that bumps up to 21+ - so you rarely, if ever, float minerals with the build.

Lately I've been transitioning to Mutalisks, but there's of course room for Infestors or even Roaches if needed. If I get a particularly good example, I'll post the replay.

User avatar
psion
Posts: 1089
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:33 am UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:12 am UTC

Beardhammer wrote:What's wrong with the first part, though? Isn't that what they do in 1v1? Sure seems like it. Most times I see a pro try to predict the other player, he gets it wrong and loses a mineral line to Mutalisks because he was too stubborn to throw up a few turrets. Why else would scouting be so critically important, if it wasn't so players can react to what they see?

When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all.
Beardhammer wrote:I have the queen alternate injects between the two hatches

I... see.

Beardhammer
Posts: 565
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:40 am UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:24 am UTC

psion wrote:
Beardhammer wrote:What's wrong with the first part, though? Isn't that what they do in 1v1? Sure seems like it. Most times I see a pro try to predict the other player, he gets it wrong and loses a mineral line to Mutalisks because he was too stubborn to throw up a few turrets. Why else would scouting be so critically important, if it wasn't so players can react to what they see?

When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all.


I can't think of which movie that's from. Seems like something Morgan Freeman said in Bruce Almighty, but I highly doubt anything with Jim Carrey would be the originator of something like that.

Beardhammer wrote:I have the queen alternate injects between the two hatches

I... see.


Yeah. I really just do it for shits and giggles. I don't think it really matters much since any hatchery with 3 or more larva is no longer "naturally" producing larva, and "select all larva" doesn't seem to really be picky about which hatchery it takes larva from first - I haven't watched it closely, but it almost seems like it just does it round-robin style. I know I've seen it use larva at the natural when there were still plenty of larva at the main and macro hatch.

User avatar
psion
Posts: 1089
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:33 am UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:33 am UTC


Beardhammer
Posts: 565
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:40 am UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:40 am UTC

psion wrote:Close. Kind of. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbinE6bx8xM


I'm gonna go outside and hit myself with a shovel a few dozen times for failing to remember things from Futurama.

User avatar
Adacore
Posts: 2755
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:35 pm UTC
Location: 한국 창원

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Adacore » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:46 am UTC

Do people play team games of starcraft with voicechat? I can't really imagine playing high-level teamplay based games without some kind of voice communication, but from what you're saying you don't normally have it?

Beardhammer
Posts: 565
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:40 am UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:10 am UTC

I/we don't use it, but I'm not even sure if there even IS "high level team play." Our MMR is apparently into Master now, as we've faced several teams from Master league and beaten all of them. I can see the benefits of having voicechat... but it just hasn't been necessary. We already know pretty much what we're gonna do going into the game (7RR and marines, 7RR and lings, 7RR and 4gate) and pinging the map is generally enough otherwise - scan the base and see a spire? Ping the map and type "muta." Scout a Dark Shrine? Ping the map and say "dt." Tanks? Colossi? Infestors? Teal's mom? You know the drill. 3v3 was even moreso this way - I'd never played with our third guy (my partner does 2v2 with him and based on those games we played I'd say he's about on my level), and we didn't even have to communicate much. We'd scout the opposition and pretty much choose what we're doing. Since we had 2 Zergs they set out ahead of time that one was doing roach/infestor while the other does ling/muta and I do whatever, depending on race. When I got Zerg, I did roach/hydra.

Beardhammer
Posts: 565
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:40 am UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:02 am UTC

Some observations from a day's worth of 2v2 random team games:

- Zerg REALLY needs an answer to Infestors. I know, mirror matchup, but I got into a RRvRR game where all got Zerg, and it was just retarded. We opened with a double 7pool (more or less crippling one, but unable to greatly damage the other, so we just used it to expand safely), both of us made Roaches (they ended up throwing up a bunch of spines so we couldn't really push with any roaches either though we were able to consistently keep their army size down), and I figured on going Mutalisks. Ended up that one of them went Muta as well (the one we couldn't cripple) while the other guy - I'm guessing - was fed some resources by the one we didn't cripple and eventually went full-on roach/infestor. My teammate honestly kinda sucked (probably why he wanted to 7pool, come to think of it) and went roach/hydra. I think he had a few infestors at one point.

What really drove the point home was how crazily effective Fungal Growth is against EVERYTHING Zerg has. I had a flock of about 20 1/1 Mutas harassing blue's third... and red sent three Infestors and damned near killed the entire flock. Yeah, the mutas took down the queen, both spine crawlers, and maybe ten drones, but I also lost about four mutas and the remaining ones were all in orange/red, which meant I couldn't fight blue's mutas with them (I had superior upgrades but we were pretty much even on muta count all game.) I was dumping minerals into lings most of the game and harassing with them constantly, but again - fungal growth pretty much shuts that down (not to mention they had probably five or six spine crawlers hanging around from earlier in the game.)

I later saved gas and swapped to Ultralisks - they can't be rooted by Fungal and they're effective against Roaches, seems like a no-brainer, right? (Hell, their 6 armor also means they can take a decent number of hits from Mutalisks, too!) Wrong. Just throw a line of Infested Terrans in front of the Ultralisks and suddenly they're basically stuck in place, batting little infested terrans while roaches are puking on them.

I know it's a mirror match. I don't even care that it was lost (like I said, my teammate was pretty bad.) I just wish there was some fucking answer to Infestors in the Zerg arsenal. I'm not even convinced Broodlords would do it - Broodlords have 9 range, but so does Neural Parasite. At the very least that would allow the Infestors to neutralize the Broodlords long enough for their stronger Roach army to bowl over yours (since there's no way you could have Broodlords, Roaches, AND Infestors in significant numbers without essentially already having won.) I tried sniping them with the Mutalisks when they were busy gooping my lings and my partner's army, and I was able to pick off about five (out of about 11 or so), but they just gooped my mutas in place and I was forced to withdraw them (or risk losing them to blue's somewhat inferior muta flock.) Terran have Ghosts and EMP. Protoss can zap them with Templar. But what the hell is Zerg supposed to do, other than spam Infestors of their own?

- Force Field is really, really fucking dumb. Like, really dumb. I play Random. I know why it has to be dumb - because Stalkers and Zealots both pretty much fucking suck unless they outnumber the enemy and/or have all their upgrades (Charge/Blink and superior attack/armor upgrades.) I just don't know why they can't just fix things so that Zealots and Stalkers are capable of fighting enemy t1.5 on even footing, and nerf Force Field so that it's no longer basically an auto-win ability in certain situations. I'll explain.

It was RRvTP on Khaydarin Depths. We went for a 6 minute rush, with me doing lings and him doing roaches (this was random team, not AT.) We scouted 4gate from the Protoss and some kind of tech play from the Terran with the initial scout, so we decided to push Terran. The Terran was actually pretty good, and had a bunker with some marines in it at the base of his ramp. This alone isn't enough to stop the push, but it turns out he was teching straight to siege tanks. He didn't have siege tech done (watching the replay, he accidentally made a tank before starting siege tech, otherwise siege tech would have been done shortly after we arrived), but he did have a tank done and rolling down the ramp when we arrived. We killed the tank, bunker, and all marines without heavy losses (I lost maybe 8/20 lings), but the toss had responded by that point, he had a siege tank setting up on high ground, so we pulled back and droned up while shutting down proxy pylon attempts with lings. We broke our gold natural rocks and I gave the expo to my partner, since he needed the resources more than me (especially the extra gas.) I eventually expanded to side gold since I was confident we had enough of an army (and strong enough map awareness) to defend it. They pushed not long after we got our expos up (I maynarded some drones to mine but otherwise we didn't have time to drone them.) I still only had about 16 lings at the time, but again - we saw them coming.

The toss eventually managed to get a pylon up we couldn't tear down, and they pushed onto the high ground in the middle of the map, between the two watchtowers (which we held all game with a single ling each - apparently it doesn't matter if they see what you're doing with sentries on the job.) We knew they'd have to move slow, protecting the tanks (there were three), so we planned on a pincer. He'd swing around from behind (between their bases and their army) and engage while I sent my lings in from our side to flank them.

It worked perfectly. His roaches hit, and the Terran sieged his tanks where they were - on our side of the map, and with one exception, they were also a fair distance away from their army. I sent the lings in, figuring on punishing them for the tactical error (not clearing the watchtowers, not scouting ahead, not protecting the tanks) - and the toss just spammed a few force fields on the tanks, making it impossible for my lings to even touch them. I lost a lot of lings before I could pull them out (but who cares, they're lings and I have plenty of larva), and my partner lost all but a couple of his roaches due to tank fire - see, the entire plan of action relied on me sweeping in from behind and taking the tanks out of the picture before they could blow the roaches to hell and back.

The enemy team made a tactical error. We communicated and went with a plan of action to punish that tactical error - and it did not fucking matter because of force field. Yeah, we made them use sentry energy - but because we lost a lot of lings and most of our roaches, there was NOTHING stopping them from pushing forward and sieging up where their tanks are in range of our ramps. Lings can't directly attack tanks with army support (which is why being able to rapidly replenish my lings didn't matter) and roaches absolutely cannot handle a 4gate push with tanks pounding on them at the same time. Eventually the Terran got blue flames on the field which immediately put an end to any real use of lings, and I didn't have enough gas to try getting infestors or mutas out (remember, I was effectively on one base and didn't have any opportunity to spend larva on drones to get the gas on my expo up and running.) I did have +1/+1 lings, though.

What really burns me about this is that the enemy team almost literally just attack-moved - they moved their armies up, set up a proxy pylon, and just a-moved forward. No scouting ahead or behind, not even checking/clearing the watchtowers before moving in. They just moved as one big blob. We specifically positioned ourselves ahead of time to hit them from all sides, to exploit the the vulnerability of tanks... and it didn't matter because the Protoss player is allowed to essentially edit the map to his liking. In any other game, we'd call this cheating. In Starcraft 2, it's considered normal because I guess Blizzard is worried that if they make the Zealot and Stalker viable on their own (without requiring colossi and sentries around) they'd be too much like tankier versions of zerglings and marines, respectively.

My general, likely horribly misguided opinions on how to fix this crap:

- Fungal Growth shouldn't refresh itself when cast on targets already affected by it. Because this would then give Zerg issues with dealing with large numbers of air units (read: mutalisks), I'd also increase Hydralisk movement speed off-creep to 2.60 - significantly slower than slowlings, stalkers, roaches with speed, stimmed marines, and chargelots, but hopefully fast enough to be able to be effectively usable without requiring creep. I'd almost like to see Muscular Augments make a return to increase their speed from 2.60 to 3.00 (Roach /w speed movement speed.) Zerg already has an answer to ground based blobs - fungal them and then either roll banelings up or carpetbomb them. I just feel Fungal Growth is way too much of an anti-everything ability right now, which in turn makes the Infestor an anti-everything unit.

- Reduce Force Field duration to 5 seconds (down from 15), and buff both Stalkers and Zealots in some way that they're not longer fully dependent on Sentries to get anything done. I'm inclined to say increase Stalker damage (so that it's a unit that hits hard while firing slowly - it suits a hit-and-run based nature that Blink emphasizes, more than the other option of just lowering attack cooldown does.) If that ends up making them too strong, I'd say reduce their shields by a little bit. Zealots are more problematic, and I actually think it's important that they plod around at 2.25 because if they were much faster, proxy 2gates might end up being way too strong. That said, I think you could still bump their speed up to 2.30 or even 2.35 without causing horrendous balance issues (they'd be a little faster than Marines, but Marauders with Concussive Shells would still counter them well.) I'd then probably reduce the cost of Charge to 100/100, since I honestly feel it's a pretty goddamned weak upgrade in most situations. Speedlings can still easily outrun Chargelots (yeah it means you lose a handful of lings, big deal), Stalkers with Blink would still be able to essentially laugh at Zealots (Charge and Blink both have 10 second cooldowns - as long as you don't Blink until they Charge, you'll take minimal damage), and stimmed MM would still be able to easily kite the Zealots.

The only concern I'd have is making Charge attainable TOO early could really fuck with Terran's ability to pressure Protoss, since Chargelots do great against tanks and force MM to kite... but that'd just mean they'd have to roll some Hellions out, which I don't see game-breaking problems with.

User avatar
psion
Posts: 1089
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:33 am UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:02 am UTC

Well, now you know that ZvZ is all about the infestor. Brood lords work fine, but it's hard to switch into them.

I don't know about the other game. I wouldn't mind watching it.

I think any changes to FF would be a lot more tricky than shuffling numbers around. You'll probably just wind up in a situation where something else is the crux of the race, like blink. Then everything gets shifted around blink being too strong, which then messes up the other match ups and so on.

Beardhammer
Posts: 565
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:40 am UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:49 am UTC

psion wrote:Well, now you know that ZvZ is all about the infestor. Brood lords work fine, but it's hard to switch into them.

I don't know about the other game. I wouldn't mind watching it.

I think any changes to FF would be a lot more tricky than shuffling numbers around. You'll probably just wind up in a situation where something else is the crux of the race, like blink. Then everything gets shifted around blink being too strong, which then messes up the other match ups and so on.


Yeah. That was really just a rambling rant, but I don't like the position Force Field occupies in the Protoss lineup - until you hit t3 and start popping Colossi out, Force Field is required for pretty much anything and everything you do.

I definitely learned a new opener for Terran from that guy - like I said, he would've had siege mode (and one tank) by probably 6:30 at the latest if he hadn't built the tank first. It was basically 12rax, 14gas, orbital at 16, and then factory with his first 100 gas while producing marines and SCVs. Wondering if you could do 13gas or even 12gas to get the siege tech working faster at the cost of having a couple less peons mining minerals in the meantime.

I kinda already knew ZvZ was about Infestor spamming, but I just wanted to actually get a chance to use Mutas for once. Almost never use them anymore because Infestors are just better, cost for cost.

|Erasmus|
Branson
Posts: 2643
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:53 am UTC
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:59 am UTC

Beardhammer wrote:I definitely learned a new opener for Terran from that guy - like I said, he would've had siege mode (and one tank) by probably 6:30 at the latest if he hadn't built the tank first. It was basically 12rax, 14gas, orbital at 16, and then factory with his first 100 gas while producing marines and SCVs. Wondering if you could do 13gas or even 12gas to get the siege tech working faster at the cost of having a couple less peons mining minerals in the meantime.

I kinda already knew ZvZ was about Infestor spamming, but I just wanted to actually get a chance to use Mutas for once. Almost never use them anymore because Infestors are just better, cost for cost.


It's less that infestors are -better-, it's more that you don't need 12 infestors to be useful.. you still have your roach army, but 2-3 fungals on the opponents roach army will win you the battle. If you go mutas, you have to stockpile a tonne of resources, and if the opponent catches on, you just die.

You could do a gas first opening with T like that (12 gas, 13 rax rather than the other way around) and get a factory as soon as your rax finishes. But you delay your orbital a bit doing that.

For 1v1's... I'm loving the super fast 3 orbital build that you can do nowadays. (I mean, making 2 command centres while on 1 rax and just having so many mules you get an absolutely ridonculous mid-game push...) I haven't faced a Z who takes a very fast third to counter (faced a bunch of all-ins, but if a zerg hasn't expanded by about ~20 supply, i know something is up and making 2 bunkers generally stops them cold) but I dunno if it works when you just follow up with a strong mid-game tank-marine timing (similar to how forge FE into 6 gate timing can be tough for a zerg that took a third in response to the FE).

Beardhammer
Posts: 565
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:40 am UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:37 am UTC

What would the proper response be for Protoss vs Broodlords?

Ended up in a ZTvPP against two pretty decent Protoss. I opened with 3rax MM, getting both gas instead of a 4th rax, and we did a speedling/stim timing push. Didn't inflict any critical damage but wiped out pretty much both of their armies, a gateway, and a couple pylons. I figured it was a fair trade since we scrubbed four sentries from the field while we didn't lose much but minerals and a little gas.

I threw down a 4th rax (2 reactors, 2 tech labs) and started making ghosts, and we pushed again when I had four ghosts. By this point they had some colossi out but EMP allowed us to pretty much wreck their normal forces (and I was able to zap the sentries.) We eventually died because of the colossi, but again... we killed most of their gateway mix before that happened, along with one of the colossi.

At that point I threw down two starports with reactors (was using the factory to make the reactors while starports were building), an armory, and pumped out several vikings while researching +1 attack (my bio was 2/1 at this point.) We pushed again, him still mostly just lings (a few roaches), and some corruptors. One of them went High Templar in the interim and I wasn't able to find them with scans, so they were able to get some storms off which caused us to lose most of our shit. I believe I lost most of my ghosts following this, but I'm not really sure when they died. They had map control after this, but couldn't push our mains/naturals, and didn't really try pushing my zerg buddy's third.

I continued pumping medivacs and vikings, researching upgrades, and threw down another 3 rax with tech labs to increase marauder production (between storm and colossi marines are just gonna die for the most part.) They fielded Phoenixes to handle the medivacs, which I'm not sure was that great an idea. My partner started producing broodlords. Ended up being some back and forth, with them wiping out my partner's third while we scrubbed a chunk of their armies, then we stopped their attempt to take a third, etc etc. Eventually I ran out of income (my partner was able to hold a third so he was able to spare minerals from time to time, and I had plenty of gas) but we were keeping them on two bases - which meant they were mined out, too. We eventually won primarily due to maintaining air dominance with broodlords, corruptors, and vikings. Broodlords made short work of templar and gateway, and the corruptor/viking mix ate colossi and phoenixes alive. Stimrauders with medivacs on the ground pretty much cleaned up, along with plenty of speedlings.

I'm not really sure what the toss players could have done better. I don't think phoenix was the correct solution since they suck against armored air (which all of our air was), but void rays take extra damage from vikings, cost an arm and a leg, and wouldn't fare well against any marine support, either. If they'd just gone for double colossi, they'd lose them to our air mix.


Return to “Gaming”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests