Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

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psion
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:32 pm UTC

Beardhammer wrote:I know. I just think it's stupid they can't at least make decent maps for the bracket since balance changes are out of the question.

They can't even make decent 1v1 maps.

Our games probably averaged at around 18 minutes, but since we placed in plat at first I'm not surprised we didn't lose when you stopped messing around. One of our opponents sucked up to me a bit and asked me to carry him to 2v2 diamond.
Spoiler:
eternalsoul.png

I told him to leave the games as soon as he joined and I won the placements 2v1 and got him in diamond. So, I could get anyone into diamond 2v2 I think, if anyone cares for that.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:15 am UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:
Beardhammer wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:
Menacing Spike wrote:Placed diamond. Do not want! How do I make it go away!?


Lose a bunch of games? Easiest way to do this is to play 20-30 games where you do outrageous cheesing. In base proxy hatch. Offensive planetary fortresses. Miner rushing. That sort of stuff.


Or... just play normally.


If I play seriously I'm going to stay here. I don't want to play seriously.
Proxy hatch is a good suggestion.


So you don't want to get better? You just wanna butcher morons that have no idea how to play?

Why play at all, then?

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kain » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:33 am UTC

Beardhammer wrote:
Menacing Spike wrote:
Beardhammer wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:
Menacing Spike wrote:Placed diamond. Do not want! How do I make it go away!?


Lose a bunch of games? Easiest way to do this is to play 20-30 games where you do outrageous cheesing. In base proxy hatch. Offensive planetary fortresses. Miner rushing. That sort of stuff.


Or... just play normally.


If I play seriously I'm going to stay here. I don't want to play seriously.
Proxy hatch is a good suggestion.


So you don't want to get better? You just wanna butcher morons that have no idea how to play?

Why play at all, then?


Either A) Because it is fun, or B) because Spike is rather confident that the Diamond placement is a fluke, and is rather convinced that the matches will be over so shortly that there will be almost nothing to learn from them (it would be like me trying to solo a diamond right now, I just can't stay on top of my macro long enough to keep up with them, even if I am doing much better than I was say, 6 months ago in that regard) so Spike would rather get demoted to a league where people wont expect his macro or micro or whatever to be on a level he can't manage. Now, for matching purposes he should be fine to just lose about 10 games in a row, which should get him matched to people of his own level. The way I usually do that is to play at 4 am :)
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Goldstein » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:35 am UTC

Kain wrote:The way I usually do that is to play at 4 apm :)

What I thought you wrote, and clearly a better idea.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kain » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:40 am UTC

Goldstein wrote:
Kain wrote:The way I usually do that is to play at 4 apm :)

What I thought you wrote, and clearly a better idea.


Damn you, now I am tempted to try a game (ffa probably) where I limit myself to 4 apm just to see how frustrating it is (I think you can't even do steady probe production of that, can you?)
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Goldstein » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:48 am UTC

I'm not sure what counts as an action. Here's my suggested build order.

0:15 Box-select your 6 SCVs
0:30 Move 6 SCVs onto minerals
0:45 Select Command Centre
[edit] Fuck, this is gold.
1:00 Set rally point to minerals
1:15 Train SCV

1:00 Train SCV
1:15 Set rally point to minerals
1:30 Select 1 SCV
1:45 Choose basic structures
2:00 Choose supply depot
2:15 Choose a fine location for that supply depot and stick 'er down
2:30 Select Command Centre
2:45 Train SCV
3:00 Select SCV from supply depot
3:15 Choose basic structures
3:30 Choose barracks
3:45 Lose all your SCVs to a pair of Zerglings. Better luck next time.

The reason I like to choose Terran is because you save two clicks by not having to set the refinery builder onto gas. That's really more of a late-game concern though.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:09 pm UTC

Won with proxy hatch. Won with mass barracks (not marines, barracks) + hellions. Won with first expanding into their main.
Tried broodlord rush a few times, lost horribly every time. Need more ideas.

The 4 apm idea sounds nice but would be far too frustrating in effect :(. "Shit, tanks, I need to back my mari... oh wait, fuck."
Only way to realistically win would be either to fight a low bronze protoss and reaper his ass (those guys spend their first 2000 minerals on a forge, a pylon, and canons), or maybe a-move workers.

The most fun I had was with mass barracks, landing them around to block stuff and box in drones, block roaches at chokes, etc.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:13 pm UTC

That's great.
I'm pretty sure that going into the build menus doesn't count as an action. So after you select the worker it's just one action to build something.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:55 pm UTC

Played a few 1v1's in the new season. Apparently my 'secret ranking' is still low as hell, got put back in Gold.

Then I played 2 more games and both times the opponant was "Favored" so I was nervous. Crushed them both with ease, wasn't even a challenge. Saw that they were both Gold ranked as well.

I am wondering if the ranking system is getting better, because I was losing to silvers sometimes last season who played flawlessly. Its embarassing being gold so hopefully I will at least make it to platinum...
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:59 pm UTC

Boxer vs Rain G1 (MLG semi-finals) is on the all-time epic games list. Over an hour long.

What happens when TvT goes PAST Battlecruiser v Battlecruiser in the lategame?
Spoiler:
50 Vikings vs 20 Vikings, 10 Ravens and 5 Thors. Single Ghost vs Ghost Snipe and EMP micro. Seeker Missiles, Nukes and Yamatos everywhere.


Winner:
Spoiler:
Rain, because after their air forces killed each other in a close and epic fight he still had Thors
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby el_loco_avs » Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:07 am UTC

Game_boy wrote:Boxer vs Rain G1 (MLG semi-finals) is on the all-time epic games list. Over an hour long.

What happens when TvT goes PAST Battlecruiser v Battlecruiser in the lategame?
Spoiler:
50 Vikings vs 20 Vikings, 10 Ravens and 5 Thors. Single Ghost vs Ghost Snipe and EMP micro. Seeker Missiles, Nukes and Yamatos everywhere.


Winner:
Spoiler:
Rain, because after their air forces killed each other in a close and epic fight he still had Thors


Animated gif to go along with that:
Spoiler:
Image



Missed the game, hope to see it soon.
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I'll go your way too.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:24 am UTC

Kain wrote:
Goldstein wrote:
Kain wrote:The way I usually do that is to play at 4 apm :)

What I thought you wrote, and clearly a better idea.


Damn you, now I am tempted to try a game (ffa probably) where I limit myself to 4 apm just to see how frustrating it is (I think you can't even do steady probe production of that, can you?)

provided you keep the nexus selected and don't chrono, you can, barely (at least until you need to build pylons).

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Tomo » Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:34 am UTC

Beardhammer wrote:So you don't want to get better? You just wanna butcher morons that have no idea how to play?

Why play at all, then?


Playing games.. for FUN???

HOW DARE YOU.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:43 am UTC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YqNEMteMjg

Good game between Boxer and some Zerg I've never heard of named Xlord. Really illustrates how silly TvZ is right now, I think. It's fair, but I definitely don't feel it's balanced.

Boxer opened in game 1 with a 2rax proxy on XNC (he proxied on the left watchtower) and took down Xlord without issues. Xlord decided to play it safe with game 2 so he'd have enough lings out quickly enough to handle any bunker crap, and also started gas early so he could have fast speedlings. Problem is, it crippled his economy, while Boxer's wasn't hurt one damn bit. In fact, Boxer didn't even attempt a bunker! He just walked over, saw a bunch of lings, and immediately decided to not even bother and to play it safe. By time speed was finished, the rax were back in place at the top of his ramp so those lings are now worthless (which I guess is why he tried to use them to kill a few rines?) Boxer had 16 SCVs when Xlord only had 11, and that's not counting MULEs (good for another 4-5 SCVs while they're active.) Boxer went for blue flame hellions immediately after (he expanded while he was doing the 2rax, of course) and that essentially confined Xlord to his main and natural, which meant Boxer got his 3rd before Xlord did... and Boxer got his 3rd on a gold. Zerg can't expo to gold on Metalopolis due to tanks - tanks on the Terran-side gold can shell the mineral line of the Zerg-side gold.

Xlord eventually took a 3rd and then Boxer pushed out. Xlord played very well by stopping that mech-heavy push, but ultimately he was just doomed. He never had more bases than Boxer (which is death for Zerg), couldn't take more bases by time late game rolled around (he was so so so far behind on upgrades; he was trying to research lvl 1 melee attack and lvl 1 armor when Boxer was finishing lvl 3 infantry and vehicle attack), and ultimately just couldn't win like that. Both players played really well. I DO think Xlord overracted a little in handling the 2rax (I think going for that fast gas was a major mistake; plain slowlings can stop a 2rax bunker push), but it does illustrate the point that ZvT is pretty messed up right now. I think once Terran players macro better and explore some less-used units (people are starting to discover that blue flame hellion runbys are, in fact, really really good against zergs that just wanna spam drones and lings all the way to 3 bases and muta/infestor) that we might discover some imbalance. For now, I think it's balanced due to the current state of the metagame, but ultimately I think Zerg might end up being underpowered against Terran if for no other reason than Zerg's unit selection is terribly terribly limited versus Terran: Hydralisks are immediately out, Ultralisks are extremely risky, and Roaches are only good until Marauders begin making an appearance. It leaves Zerg with what's essentially Zergling/Infestor/Broodlord/Mutalisk (Banelings and Corruptors are niche units in the matchup that generally don't play major roles, IMO), while Terrans can pretty much literally use every single unit in their lineup effectively against Zerg. I'd say Ravens are probably the least-useful unit against Zerg, and that's only because Thors handle Mutas just as well for the same gas cost, and Hydralisks are already effectively handled by Siege Tanks (so there's no real use for PDD.)

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:44 am UTC

Tomo wrote:
Beardhammer wrote:So you don't want to get better? You just wanna butcher morons that have no idea how to play?

Why play at all, then?


Playing games.. for FUN???

HOW DARE YOU.


Since when have "getting better at the game" and "having fun" been mutually exclusive for ANY game?

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:18 am UTC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGaCOX7vGfM

Pretty silly TvP there, too. I don't know who the toss is so I don't know if he's on Boxer's level or not. Very nice Blink Stalker backdoor, but I don't think it was worth it since it didn't really do any critical damage to Boxer, and hugely delayed the toss' expo. Late-game is just hilarious. Boxer just spams Marauders and pretty much goes "Archons? WHAT FUCKIN ARCHONS" all game.

Marauders have poor DPS vs. non-armored? Since when?

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kag » Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:56 am UTC

Beardhammer wrote:Since when have "getting better at the game" and "having fun" been mutually exclusive for ANY game?


The claim isn't that they are mutually exclusive, but that they can happen separately, which your previous statement didn't really allow for.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:26 am UTC

Kag wrote:
Beardhammer wrote:Since when have "getting better at the game" and "having fun" been mutually exclusive for ANY game?


The claim isn't that they are mutually exclusive, but that they can happen separately, which your previous statement didn't really allow for.


I just have difficulty understanding why someone would be displeased they're playing against players from which they can learn useful things. I personally get bored after about five minutes of playing players significantly below my level.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby mister k » Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:33 am UTC

Beardhammer wrote:
Kag wrote:
Beardhammer wrote:Since when have "getting better at the game" and "having fun" been mutually exclusive for ANY game?


The claim isn't that they are mutually exclusive, but that they can happen separately, which your previous statement didn't really allow for.


I just have difficulty understanding why someone would be displeased they're playing against players from which they can learn useful things. I personally get bored after about five minutes of playing players significantly below my level.


I don't find getting annihilated very illuminating. I can probably learn a lot from the replay, seeing how they out macroed me (wait, they didn't get supply blocked every single goddamn time?), but the actual experience is just disheartening.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Sytri » Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:21 am UTC

Hmmm, played my placement match for S3; easily beat my opponent. Placed 70 Bronze :shock:

Now, I wasn't expecting diamond or anything like that but maybe low silver.

Played 4 more matches, 3 wins and am now 26 Bronze. WTH?

I know I'm not amazing but I'm decent enough to be a silver I think. I did play about with off races in the last season and kept losing horribly. Is this why I'm placed so low?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Tomo » Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:47 am UTC

Beardhammer wrote:I just have difficulty understanding why someone would be displeased they're playing against players from which they can learn useful things. I personally get bored after about five minutes of playing players significantly below my level.


I just have difficulty understanding why someone would be displeased they're playing a game where they're winning. I personally get bored after about five minutes of losing to someone.

Oh wow, subjectivity! Quit being so elitist about something as unimportant as a way to mindlessly waste time.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:07 am UTC

Sytri wrote:Hmmm, played my placement match for S3; easily beat my opponent. Placed 70 Bronze :shock:

Now, I wasn't expecting diamond or anything like that but maybe low silver.

Played 4 more matches, 3 wins and am now 26 Bronze. WTH?

I know I'm not amazing but I'm decent enough to be a silver I think. I did play about with off races in the last season and kept losing horribly. Is this why I'm placed so low?


Probably. Unfortunately the system doesn't track separate stats for each race - another thing that sucks about Bnet 2.0 compared to Bnet 1.0 (though those stats didn't affect your matchmaking in War3; at least they were visible, though)- which can make learning a new race kinda painful. I suppose you could just play Customs if you want to learn a new race, though.

Tomo wrote:
Beardhammer wrote:I just have difficulty understanding why someone would be displeased they're playing against players from which they can learn useful things. I personally get bored after about five minutes of playing players significantly below my level.


I just have difficulty understanding why someone would be displeased they're playing a game where they're winning. I personally get bored after about five minutes of losing to someone.

Oh wow, subjectivity! Quit being so elitist about something as unimportant as a way to mindlessly waste time.


Because winning without there being any sort of challenge is boring and ultimately pretty pointless? Do you also enjoy kicking dogs and tying string to cats' tails?

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Jesse » Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:13 am UTC

el_loco_avs wrote:
Game_boy wrote:Boxer vs Rain G1 (MLG semi-finals) is on the all-time epic games list. Over an hour long.

What happens when TvT goes PAST Battlecruiser v Battlecruiser in the lategame?
Spoiler:
50 Vikings vs 20 Vikings, 10 Ravens and 5 Thors. Single Ghost vs Ghost Snipe and EMP micro. Seeker Missiles, Nukes and Yamatos everywhere.


Winner:
Spoiler:
Rain, because after their air forces killed each other in a close and epic fight he still had Thors


Animated gif to go along with that:
Spoiler:
Image



Missed the game, hope to see it soon.


Someone needs to link me to that game.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Tomo » Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:00 pm UTC

Beardhammer wrote:Because winning without there being any sort of challenge is boring and ultimately pretty pointless? Do you also enjoy kicking dogs and tying string to cats' tails?


When I played I was high diamond and fairly competetive, now because of real life I can't play at all, but that's not the point.

Winning at starcraft against any sort of challenge is ultimately pretty pointless, It's a game. If you find winning without a challenge boring then fine, but that's subjective. If you enjoy yourself by improving and challenging yourself in a game, then that's fine too. The point is that different people play games in different ways to have fun, and there's nothing about your way that is more correct, better, or less pointless. If some people want to dick about at low levels, then there's nothing wrong with that. At the end of the day, it's a mindless diversion either way.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:02 pm UTC

Beardhammer wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGaCOX7vGfM
Marauders have poor DPS vs. non-armored? Since when?


I'm going to refrain from commenting on your statement.

About the game: it's funny how the guy moving the mouse around is so much better at seeing stuff happen than the commenters. He selects buildings were upgrades start/finish, zooms on probes sneaking around, open relevant tabs, etc; those guys don't even notice, and go on about how getting your command center after your barracks is the earliest you can can get your command center after your barracks.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby el_loco_avs » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:26 pm UTC

Jesse wrote:
el_loco_avs wrote:
Game_boy wrote:Boxer vs Rain G1 (MLG semi-finals) is on the all-time epic games list. Over an hour long.

What happens when TvT goes PAST Battlecruiser v Battlecruiser in the lategame?
Spoiler:
50 Vikings vs 20 Vikings, 10 Ravens and 5 Thors. Single Ghost vs Ghost Snipe and EMP micro. Seeker Missiles, Nukes and Yamatos everywhere.


Winner:
Spoiler:
Rain, because after their air forces killed each other in a close and epic fight he still had Thors


Animated gif to go along with that:
Spoiler:
Image



Missed the game, hope to see it soon.


Someone needs to link me to that game.


Search Rain Boxer MLG and you will find it. In 4 parts. Awesomeness.

edit: on youtube.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:38 pm UTC

el_loco_avs wrote:
Search Rain Boxer MLG and you will find it. In 4 parts. Awesomeness.


Taken down now. Here is a version with either Korean or Chinese commentary, since MLG aren't releasing replays due to DDoS attacks but they did before.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjkwMjY0MjQ0.html
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby el_loco_avs » Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:24 pm UTC

ddosing mlg? whA?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:27 pm UTC

el_loco_avs wrote:ddosing mlg? whA?


Yeah, it's just an excuse, there isn't any data in the replays that would help with that. Either they don't understand technology or there is a hidden reason (like Korean teams pressuring them not to release replays). Team Liquid's admin R1CH called them out on this, and then the response from MLG was "We can't discuss issues of event security in public".
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby el_loco_avs » Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:08 pm UTC

Game_boy wrote:
el_loco_avs wrote:ddosing mlg? whA?


Yeah, it's just an excuse, there isn't any data in the replays that would help with that. Either they don't understand technology or there is a hidden reason (like Korean teams pressuring them not to release replays). Team Liquid's admin R1CH called them out on this, and then the response from MLG was "We can't discuss issues of event security in public".



But those replays are available as VOD's on their site. You just have to pay for them or be a member or something right>?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:56 pm UTC

el_loco_avs wrote:
Game_boy wrote:
el_loco_avs wrote:ddosing mlg? whA?


Yeah, it's just an excuse, there isn't any data in the replays that would help with that. Either they don't understand technology or there is a hidden reason (like Korean teams pressuring them not to release replays). Team Liquid's admin R1CH called them out on this, and then the response from MLG was "We can't discuss issues of event security in public".



But those replays are available as VOD's on their site. You just have to pay for them or be a member or something right>?


Yes. All this does is mean the 90% of games that weren't broadcasted won't be seen by anyone. Even if they do send out replay packs to "selected casters".
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:48 pm UTC

I'm pretty sure that the argument by MLG was determined to be that you can access the player ids from the replays (this was brought up a lot on TL yesterday, so I assume this data must be there somewhere), and then abuse the fact that battle.net is buggy by spamming them with thousands of messages, which will lag them out of games. Even releasing the replays after MLG is finished means you can DDOS the player from practically any game :/

Good job, blizzard. I was really looking forward to replays of the new Slayers TvZ opening, and of MVP just being a complete boss and pwning DRG with standard play (when DRG is arguably best ZvT in the world).

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:52 pm UTC

|Erasmus| wrote:I'm pretty sure that the argument by MLG was determined to be that you can access the player ids from the replays, and then abuse the fact that battle.net is buggy by spamming them with thousands of messages, which will lag them out of games. Even releasing the replays after MLG is finished means you can DDOS the player from practically any game :/

Good job, blizzard. I was really looking forward to replays of the new Slayers TvZ opening, and of MVP just being a complete boss and pwning DRG with standard play (when DRG is arguably best ZvT in the world).


And R1CH said that you can't access the IDs from the replays, and if you want to all you need to do is get the visible account name and then try a few hundred character codes.

--

I think MVP's strength was just keeping DRG on two base for far longer than Zerg would want with perfect blue flame Hellion control. Normally Zerg has map control with zerglings but he is forced to make slow roaches, spines and/or queens and then turtle just to survive against blue flames. Then Terran can do what they want with composition and a fast third.

If the zerg chooses roaches as their main army unit because of all of the hellions around, as DRG did in one game, they are just a sucky unit vs. T.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:55 pm UTC

Game_boy wrote:
el_loco_avs wrote:ddosing mlg? whA?


Yeah, it's just an excuse, there isn't any data in the replays that would help with that. Either they don't understand technology or there is a hidden reason (like Korean teams pressuring them not to release replays). Team Liquid's admin R1CH called them out on this, and then the response from MLG was "We can't discuss issues of event security in public".

Supposedly character codes are stored in replays (I've tried to find them, but have had no luck), and that by releasing the replays they make the players contactable. The DDoS side of it is that people will spam the players while they're in a game, and because of a longstanding bnet issue it causes the players to lag. So, it's not really a DDoS so much as exploiting a bug.

Thing is, the character codes of pro players are easier to find than trying to parse the code from a replay. Hell, I've got Idra and TLO on my friends list. It's also not very hard to find a replay of a pro player whether or not mlg distributes them. They could release replays after the event has finished, and/or remove the codes from the replays (I very seriously doubt anyone would notice, let alone care). It's bullshit any way you look at it.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:19 am UTC

Game_boy wrote:I think MVP's strength was just keeping DRG on two base for far longer than Zerg would want with perfect blue flame Hellion control. Normally Zerg has map control with zerglings but he is forced to make slow roaches, spines and/or queens and then turtle just to survive against blue flames. Then Terran can do what they want with composition and a fast third.

If the zerg chooses roaches as their main army unit because of all of the hellions around, as DRG did in one game, they are just a sucky unit vs. T.

Yeah, I understand the theory behind it. Reactor hellion expand is one of my staple TvZ builds. If you can force roaches, the gas investment delays all the useful tech zerg could get (like bane speed or infestor/muta) by quite some time. And roaches still die hard to standard marine-tank.

From what I gather from TL, the main difference between a normal reactor hellion expand is that after the initial 4 hellions (or I sometimes make 6, depending on how I scout the opponent reacting to the hellions) when you switch the factory/rax for what would normally be a marine-tank transition you keep producing a few hellions and get blue flame, delaying siege tanks a bit, but giving you complete map control and denying any creep spread until mutas are out or they go into quite a few slow roaches.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby ulster » Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:13 am UTC

Game_boy wrote:
el_loco_avs wrote:
Search Rain Boxer MLG and you will find it. In 4 parts. Awesomeness.


Taken down now. Here is a version with either Korean or Chinese commentary, since MLG aren't releasing replays due to DDoS attacks but they did before.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjkwMjY0MjQ0.html


You can, at least at the moment, watch it free from the red stream by fast forwarding to around 3:15: http://pro.majorleaguegaming.com/live/starcraft_2_red

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:15 am UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:
Beardhammer wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGaCOX7vGfM
Marauders have poor DPS vs. non-armored? Since when?


I'm going to refrain from commenting on your statement.

About the game: it's funny how the guy moving the mouse around is so much better at seeing stuff happen than the commenters. He selects buildings were upgrades start/finish, zooms on probes sneaking around, open relevant tabs, etc; those guys don't even notice, and go on about how getting your command center after your barracks is the earliest you can can get your command center after your barracks.


I just watch with sound off. Husky's generally an idiot and Day9's not as good when he can't pause the game for 30 minutes to pontificate on the color of his bellybutton lint. I just figured Day9 was controlling the replay while Husky was just babbling.

As for the Marauder comment: Why not? Because it's true? Yeah, an equal number of Marines would produce more DPS, but would also die faster to the Zealots, Archons, Psionic Storms, and even Stalkers. The Marauders are tanky enough to take numerous hits from everything, still produce enough DPS to easily plow through even Archons (which have 310 total HP!), let alone Zealots, and the things they do to Stalkers are unspeakable.

You seem to get hung up purely on numbers and ignore everything else. The game doesn't work that way. Yes, two Marines will do more DPS than one Marauder, but those two Marines will die faster, too, and you do 0 DPS when you're dead.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:53 am UTC

in small numbers, the fact that a few marines die quickly is bad. Once you get to a decent sized ball, the insane dps just shreds most things before any marines take significant damage. Until a gateway heavy toss has archon/storm marines > marauders (in general). Still make a few marauders with concussive shells so you can deal a lot of extra damage to a retreating army, but marines will win more fights.

Save the gas for upgrades and medivacs and teching to ghosts. Now I just need to get better at doing this in game... I'm still stuck in feeling that marauders are the be all and end all of beating protoss, because back when it was all 3 gate into colossi you'd just make marauders off 2 rax, get a few vikings, and a-move ftw. But marauders get destroyed -hard- by +armour zealots with charge, which is so popular now.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:48 am UTC

|Erasmus| wrote:in small numbers, the fact that a few marines die quickly is bad. Once you get to a decent sized ball, the insane dps just shreds most things before any marines take significant damage. Until a gateway heavy toss has archon/storm marines > marauders (in general). Still make a few marauders with concussive shells so you can deal a lot of extra damage to a retreating army, but marines will win more fights.

Save the gas for upgrades and medivacs and teching to ghosts. Now I just need to get better at doing this in game... I'm still stuck in feeling that marauders are the be all and end all of beating protoss, because back when it was all 3 gate into colossi you'd just make marauders off 2 rax, get a few vikings, and a-move ftw. But marauders get destroyed -hard- by +armour zealots with charge, which is so popular now.


Blue flame hellions laugh at zealots, especially if you DO have a few ghosts to zap away their shields. Snipe is actually pretty good against them as well, if you have the APM to spare (their autoattack ain't bad, either.) Once colossi and/or templar begin making an appearance there isn't much reason to keep making marines. Marines will die horribly to archons, storms, and colossi. Hell, an archon with +3 atk will literally one-shot marines that have stimmed, and given how closely marines pack together, it's likely each zot will kill 2-3 marines apiece. Obviously pure archons would still probably lose... but the archons are in the back, supporting the zealots, and you can't afford to stop and focus the archons or the zealots will eat you.

Seriously, though. If he's spamming Zealots, bring some blue flames along. They can easily kite Zealots and do a lot of damage to them - 24 dmg a pop, which is just under one quarter of the zealot's actual HP. Armor doesn't really help very much against that kind of damage output, especially if we can assume each hellion is hitting multiple zealots with one attack. Also, unlike speedlings, it's gonna be virtually impossible for zealots to get a surround on the hellions unless you get yourself cornered or something. Near as I can tell, that's the best way for Terran to respond to a Zealot/Archon build (if they're spamming chargelots, a lot of the time they dump their gas into archons, especially against bio-heavy armies.) You still want Marines, but you really want to have more Marauders than Marines, even if he's not making much robo or stalker.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby el_loco_avs » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:54 am UTC

Awesome. I'm getting better at reading terran. Early scout. See bunch of rax. Cancel expo and get spinecrawlers plus lings. Defend early attacks. Contain him and expand. Baneling bust and keep on ling pressure. Get 'festors because I need to practice using them. Annoying guy floats buildings. 'fester bring the infested terrans. GG.

I should play more. I could get out of bronze :(
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