League of Legends

Of the Tabletop, and other, lesser varieties.

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Intrigued
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Intrigued » Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:59 pm UTC

Your smartcast isn't set up right then. When you have smartcast set up right, you hold your mouse over teemo, hit E, and it will automatically use E on teemo.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Ixtellor » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:10 pm UTC

Intrigued wrote:Your smartcast isn't set up right then. When you have smartcast set up right, you hold your mouse over teemo, hit E, and it will automatically use E on teemo.


Thanks. Sounds like user error. As I would click Teemo, then hit E... not aware you still have to hold the mouse over them.

I ended up clicking teemo, Holding E, then clicking Teemo again.

I was under the impression smart cast = no clicking or mouse overing. I now see its a hybrid.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Intrigued » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:43 pm UTC

oh... weird. Yeah basically it just casts to wherever you hover your mouse, so it eliminates all clicking

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Metaphysician » Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:00 am UTC

About to watch some sick LoL action, week one day two of the LCS! First match is CRS vs CLG... and with three former CLG members on CRS, I expect a pretty intense grudge match.

http://www.twitch.tv/riotgames
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Biliboy
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Biliboy » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:28 am UTC

On the subject of smart casting, try using left shift + abilities. This lets you smartcast any time you want but leave manual placement available should you need it.

I have over 6300 ip atm, trying to decide if I should get thresh, nami, galio or nautilus. I tend to play support or tank, love Shen, lulu and nunu. I just had a game as lulu bot with a graves that went pretty well, but the most fun was end game when I'd speed boost our tank Darius into their team with w and shurelias, then ult him. Hilarity ensued.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Metaphysician » Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:28 am UTC

Biliboy wrote:On the subject of smart casting, try using left shift + abilities. This lets you smartcast any time you want but leave manual placement available should you need it.

I have over 6300 ip atm, trying to decide if I should get thresh, nami, galio or nautilus. I tend to play support or tank, love Shen, lulu and nunu. I just had a game as lulu bot with a graves that went pretty well, but the most fun was end game when I'd speed boost our tank Darius into their team with w and shurelias, then ult him. Hilarity ensued.


Of those champions, I would most highly recommend Thresh. Thresh is extremely strong in lane combined with a forceful presence in teamfights. His ultimate is a gamechanger, his pull is a gamechanger, the lantern is a gamechanger, and Flay, while not as great compared to his other abilities, is very strong in teamfights for peeling guys off your carry. Everything I have seen so far indicates he is easily a top tier support champ, and maybe viable in top lane.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby BlackSails » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:47 pm UTC

Thresh is good at pretty much everything except AP carry.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Drumheller769 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:51 pm UTC

So, Ive found that recently Ive been winning more games that Im losing although its slow going maybe win 2 lose 1 type of deal, but even the games that Im losing tend to be much closer. Ive tried branching out from support and have found jungle panth to be good for stomping with.

Still takes forever to move up in a division now, win get 15LP, lose 20 LP so :(
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Lostdreams » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:00 pm UTC

RIOT needs to work out their league matching system. I duo queued yesterday with my friend and we were placed against silver 2-3 opponents (We are working up from silver 5) and they gave us silver 3-4 people and one from bronze 4. It happened to be our jungle and they went eve so it ended up costing us the game as they didn't seem to know how or when to gank at all. She walked right into the middle of bot lane, chased them solo, and got chunked as they walked away. It was basically 4v5 the whole match.

On the upside my support is very strong now. I've finally played enough games that I know how to play effectively versus pretty every lane setup but thresh, since he's new and I never seem to get him in games.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Drumheller769 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:24 pm UTC

Yea, I'm surprised at Riot. It seems there is a lot of dislike to various parts of the new league system and they have been very quite about it. Almost not even addressing misinformation concerns let alone problems that seem to be there.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Ixtellor » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:24 pm UTC

I'm done with ranked games. The play is quite poor. The wins are boring, the losses are scream worthy.

1-15 heros who solo charge 4 every game. The only skill is in "who has the feeders".

I win my lane EVERY single game.... I normally dont dominate but I win. I get their tower, keep mine, have several kills few if any deaths... and keep on losing.

I played Ryze went 4-0, got tower mid, ganked top several times... then I met the ultra fed Warwick who was feasting our on ADC and support bottom. Phantom dancer, infinity, bloodletter... = insta dead.

Thats every game.

I am going to back to play regular SR and just going to play heros I like until I am godly and CAN carry the pathetic ranked games.

Also, screw META. With soo many poor players, its mostly meaningless.

Seems the only META that matters in all these garbage games is : A good balance between damage and tankiness.
Too much damage = you melt when the 5v5 fight happens.
too much tankiness = you dont do enough damage to win the 5v5 fights.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Intrigued » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:45 pm UTC

There's a very good point in there to keep in mind. The meta and how top tier players play is NOT necessarily the best way to play at all tiers if you want the best chance of winning. You really have to play to the tier that you are in. It doesn't make sense to have to, but if your teammates refuse to put up wards and keep getting ganked, put up wards for them. Keep your map awareness up as much as possible, and share the wealth, some people won't be keeping a decent eye on the minimap, so use those pings and keep communicating with teammates. You CAN make your teammates play better in many cases. In some cases, you have lost causes, but thems the breaks when you're playing a team game with pick up groups. Bad experiences always seem to stick with us longer, and they're fewer than they seem. Try to keep a positive attitude, because it will help you win more games.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Kag » Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:31 pm UTC

Lostdreams wrote:RIOT needs to work out their league matching system.


Matchmaking does not care about leagues at all. It only looks at your Elo, exactly the same as it did before. The only difference is you can't see your matchmaking ranking anymore.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Ixtellor » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:03 pm UTC

Intrigued wrote:You CAN make your teammates play better in many cases. .


At my level, Silver V, people are very good about pinging AND helping/telling players what they are doing wrong. The problem is that people don't listen and just have a poor understanding of the game.

I have lost count of how many times I have called out targets or said "Don't attack the tank, go after (Insert carry)". Regardless of politness, or positivity, there are just a lot of very dumb players who are going to attack the tank..... especially if they see the tank is hurt.

Bad experiences always seem to stick with us longer, and they're fewer than they seem. Try to keep a positive attitude, because it will help you win more games


I agree, but I have also been paying attention, and while wins feel good, I have realize they are not due to skill in ranked player, they are due to lack of skill on enemy team. Feeders, no map awareness, or lack of basic skills is where most wins come from in ELOhell.

I am always positive (well not always) and try to help in a friendly manner, and I am a ping machine when people are in danger.... its not going to overcome horrible players.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Drumheller769 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:16 pm UTC

A couple of things, if you are 4-0 in lane, does your CS also reflect that, going 4-0 and having the same cs as your enemy doesnt help, you should be like double if not more their CS. Also, ganking bottom over top seems to be more effective. Another thing, in winning team fights, its all about vision and positioning. You might be fed, so then its your job to NOT get focused down, position accordingly.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Intrigued » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:21 pm UTC

Oh, don't get me wrong, people aren't going to listen to everything you say, but by feeding them good information positively, they will play better than they would have (not necessarily good, just less bad), thereby increasing your chance for a win.

I think what you said applies to all ranks of the game. It's all about capitalizing on opponents' mistakes. At lower ranks, those mistakes are bigger and more frequent, but it's all frame of reference anyway.

As far as I see it, at that level there are two ways to really go for the win. The first, as I mentioned, is to overward your team so that they can get by with very little map awareness. The second is to play someone who snowballs hard and that can really take advantage of enemy squishies being out of position (which will happen frequently - if the tanks are noobs, they will leave their squishies behind, if the squishies are noobs they will be constantly making mistakes). The best options are probably a bruiser with good mobility or a mage with strong burst and good scaling. Find the weak point on the enemy team, and abuse it.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Drumheller769 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:23 pm UTC

A good trap is to pink/oracle baron and then force a fight where you have better vision and wait for them to exhaust their wards/step out of position. This is especially effective if you have a better poke comp as by the time they are forced to commit, they are already at half hp.

Another good trap is to pink/oracle red or blue buff bushes if you can get their before the enemy team when they are up, and just wait for them to come get the buff, then melt them 5v1, or 5v2.

BTW, I play in Silver 3, almost to 2 now and I've found that since leagues came about 90% of my losses were winnable games, that either myself or my team could have played better and won in,very few have been stomps. I'm also winning more than half my games now.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Lostdreams » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:54 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:
Intrigued wrote:You CAN make your teammates play better in many cases. .


At my level, Silver V, people are very good about pinging AND helping/telling players what they are doing wrong. The problem is that people don't listen and just have a poor understanding of the game.

I have lost count of how many times I have called out targets or said "Don't attack the tank, go after (Insert carry)". Regardless of politness, or positivity, there are just a lot of very dumb players who are going to attack the tank..... especially if they see the tank is hurt.

Bad experiences always seem to stick with us longer, and they're fewer than they seem. Try to keep a positive attitude, because it will help you win more games


I agree, but I have also been paying attention, and while wins feel good, I have realize they are not due to skill in ranked player, they are due to lack of skill on enemy team. Feeders, no map awareness, or lack of basic skills is where most wins come from in ELOhell.

I am always positive (well not always) and try to help in a friendly manner, and I am a ping machine when people are in danger.... its not going to overcome horrible players.


I've heard it said a couple of times by high ranked players and it's absolutely true: The team that wins isn't the one that makes the best plays, it's the one that makes the fewest mistakes. Also, bot lane wins because one side gets impatient.

Also, what was everyone's starting rank and win/loss on placement? I won 7/10, though it would have been 8 if not for a dc. Somehow this placed me squarely at silver 5? I'm not sure I understand that.

The elo (mmr) tiers are supposed to be the same

Bronze: Between 0 and 1149 (Team: 0-1249) (Top 100%)
Silver: Between 1150 and 1499 (Team: 1250-1449) (Top 68%-13%) Majority of Active Player Base
Gold: Between 1500 and 1849 (Team: 1450-1649) (Top 13%-1.5%)
Platinum: Between 1850 and 2199 (Team: 1650-1849) (Top 1.5%-0.1%)
Diamond: 2200 and above (Team: 1850+) (Top 0.1%)

but I'm not sure how that puts me at bottom tier of silver. At least I'm moving up.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Drumheller769 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:22 pm UTC

If the system feels that you 'should' have won those games you will get less credit for winning, and if you lost ones it feels you should have won, then you'll lose more. Also the made the system hesitant to put people directly into gold, I don't think it does at all anymore, since once you acquire a tier, you cant fall down from it. So they don't place you into Gold in case a person gets a lucky win streak in placement.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Kag » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:23 pm UTC

Lostdreams wrote:The elo (mmr) tiers are supposed to be the same


Well sort of, but not really. The new leagues run entirely on the LP system, which cares about your MMR only in that it makes adjustments if the rankings are too far apart. Ideally, they should go up together as you improve, since winning more games increases your LP and your MMR, but you cannot be demoted in leagues for losing games. You can have an MMR of 0 and be in Diamond V.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Ixtellor » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:23 pm UTC

Can anyone explain the logic behind the Meta game?

Why must the AP go mid? Why must the ADC, be bottom?
Why must the bottom have 2 heros and the top 1...

Do top teams ever change the Meta game? (AP and support go top, for example)
2 junglers / gank squad?

I wish I had a 5 man team to try out new strategies with.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Intrigued » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:48 pm UTC

People definitely change the meta, though it's pretty overwhelming that you play within it if you don't want to get cursed out in most ELOs.

A few pieces of info. Support goes with ADC because they don't need much gold to be effective. The 2 go bot because it's closer to dragon so it's easier to secure that, as need be. Mid generally is AP (though there's been a lot of bruisers mid lately) because it allows them good access to gank in either direction, they're next to blue if they need to pick it up, and mid is a really short lane so a well placed flash will get you out of almost any gank. There's more to it all over the place, and the reasons often change based on what champions you and your enemy are using, but those are some of the basics.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby elminster » Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:38 pm UTC

APs tend to go mid because:
A. They tend to scale better from levels than ADCs, so playing without a support is more useful
B. They tend to be more squishy so being near bushes allows melee/short range champs to have more advantage,
C. They are generally better roaming champs than ADC or top champs. So if they were to go top/bot they'll be more successful.
D. It's closest to blue buffs (Purple side blue is no where near top and blue side blue is no where near bot).

ADC goes bot because:
A. They need to have a support with them and the support:
A1. Wards dragon
A2. Allows the ADC to get high farm by protecting/healing/warding/etc.
A3. ADCs tend to be squishy, without a support they can get dived quite easily.
B. Since the support is with the ADC having them at bot would allow both of them to get to dragon quickly if needed.
C. Support doesn't need any/much gold to be effective since they have high utility from abilities alone

You tend to need a jungler for several reasons:
A. Better scaling into late game for top laner.
B. Ganks are required to win some lane setups.
C. Better mobility for dragon engages
D. Usually takes smite, which is required to prevent baron/dragon steals at higher ratings.

The meta changes all the time. Back long ago ashe used to be the top pick for Mid, now you'd be stupid to even try that.
Lane swaps are relatively common in higher elo ranked play, forcing some champs to go top/mid can win/lose a game quite easily. Duo junglers can work, but it requires laners with strong defence and very good minion wave clearing abilities. Generally people in normal games don't work together well enough to reap the benefits.

Some ADC champs can be played as a counter to bruisers in top lane (Vayne and Corki), this can allow dual ADC games. Some bruisers can be played mid (Lee sin, Jayce, Kha zix, some others). It's possible to play bot lane as a double burst combo where 2 champs have high enough damage that they'll always win an all in fight (e.g. Fiddlesticks or leblanc support can nuke people from full at level 6 when combined with an ADC). You can even go ARAM style and just have hard pushing 5 man team if they have a very bad team to defend early on.

Generally I've noticed that low elo players mostly stick to the meta, mid range elo players strictly stick to meta, high elo players test new metas from time to time.
As a rule of thumb, novelty metas only work with and against particular setups. Also they tend to be unreliable or fail horribly if a few mistakes are made.

New metas tend to get found out/developed by some high elo players (e.g. TheRainMan got to #1 with Teemo when it was widely assumed Teemo was bad) and it trickles down. Most come from analysis of the numbers involved, where it only becomes apparent after some number crunching. For example:
One of the funniest new metas I've read about (not seen yet) is reverse support Hecarim. Since Hecarim doesn't collide with minions, he can be built as pure armor stack on bot lane and visually block the enemy ADC from being able to target the your creeps. Attacking him would result in your minions counter attacking resulting in the lane being pushed towards your tower. If you look over the numbers, it would take a very long time for an ADC to get him low enough and the overall loss in gold would put your team ahead.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Biliboy » Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:04 pm UTC

A while ago I had some success with odd kill lanes bot, like Shen and poppy, Shen took most last hits with vorpal and poppy took advantage of taunts. It can get shut down though.

I've used Shen bot before as support and though its amazingly good for the carry, it's horrible for Shen with no real tank items for end game if you don't get lots of assists. I loved it when Shen top became popular, with lots of yummy farm.

One thing that has bothered me over the last season or so is the immense success rate of bruisers, especially in 3's. Darius and Garen on one team in 3's is almost a 'garenteed' win. It makes playing tanks, supports and carries in twisted treeline no fun. Tanks don't have the damage, carries don't have the survivability, and supports, well...

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Adacore » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:06 am UTC

The fundamentals have been mostly covered already, but here's my take:

You have five heros and four sources of income (3 lanes and the jungle). It turns out that it's more effective to give four people maximum income and one player nothing than it is to split it five ways*. With your support player receiving nothing, you need to pick a champion that has a lot of utility with only experience and no gold - this generally means summoner spells that do things other than damage enemies - roots, slows, stuns on enemies and buffs on your team tend to be a lot more effective with low gold (and thus no additional AP/AD) than the damaging spells that scale with AD/AP.

With your remaining four champions you want to balance your damage output between AD and AP so the enemy team can't just stack defenses against one of them**. AP champions scale better with experience than AD carries, so you want to have them in a solo lane. They're also generally squishiest, and giving them the short mid-lane means they're closer to the safety of a tower most of the time and allows them to farm safely. This also ensures they're close to the blue buffs, and can roam.

The AD carry needs the most money to be effective, and tend to be squishy. Thus, you pair them with the support to ensure they can farm safely in a side lane. The logical lane to have two champions in is bot, as it's closest to dragon which you need to control early (by the time baron control is relevant, the lane phase is mostly over).

Your final lane champion - in top - is more of a wildcard. Normally this is a bruiser, but you can go for pretty much anything so long as it's able to lane 1v1 in a side lane.

The jungler is required because not taking the jungle camps is a huge waste of gold and XP. You pick a jungler to provide ganks and fill out what your team is lacking.

I've seen pro teams do a lot of very cool things to mix up the meta:

- Lane swaps are incredibly common. Most often, the bot and top lane swapping, but sometimes the mid lane moved around too. There was a period a few months ago where in the competitive meta it was probably more common to see a lane swap in a game than not. Over the summer a few teams experimented with swapping the AD/support lane into mid to try and push the mid tower down super-fast.

- Something I saw one team do was use the jungler as second support to babysit the 1v2 lane (after a lane swap) until they hit 6, then start jungling after that.

- All AD team compositions are fairly common now. They have the advantage that your top, mid and junglers are usually pretty interchangeable - this both confuses the other team in champion select (they don't know who to pick to counter you), and allows you to swap things around in the game if necessary.

- Similarly, you fairly frequently see champions that are 'obviously' for one lane being picked and used in another lane in an attempt to confuse the enemy team into selecting the wrong runes/masteries to lane against them. This is part of the rationale for unconventional supports in competitive play - if the other team assumes they're in lane then they could pick completely inefficient runes and have real problems against their actual lane opponents.

- The support is normally with the AD carry, but I've seen the support used mid, top or roaming too. Roaming puts them a bit behind on XP, but so long as your AD carry doesn't die they'll be ahead in XP, and having the ability for the jungler and support to suddenly turn up at any lane is really scary.

* In most cases, anyway - I'm not 100% convinced if you're running some team compositions - an ultra-late game turtle composition might be more powerful if you go for a fifth champion that isn't a traditional support and split the gold more evenly. This is the reason some teams (especially Korean teams) favour supports like Lux or Zyra sometimes - if the game goes long then they switch from being support to being a second AP carry.

** This is one of the most frequently changed things in the meta, all-AD comps are definitely viable atm, with bruisers or ADCs picked mid from time to time.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Metaphysician » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:23 am UTC

I have dramatically improved my mid/late game teamfighting lately by using ARAMs (All Random All Mid) as practice. Basically, once you have the mechanics of laning down, the most important phase to be good at is teamfighting. The issue is, every single game, you lane for 10-20 minutes, and then have 3-4 teamfights. In many games though, one team or another surrenders at 20 minutes, or shortly thereafter, or you will often see teams surrender after losing a few teamfights. Much time during most games is spent running around to various objectives, ganking lanes, catching people out, etc. I was finding that my laning phase is really strong, I almost always win my lane, but I have a really hard time learning positioning in teamfights and that sort of thing.

ARAMs are basically teamfighting for 20-30 minutes straight. You get tons of practice against all kinds of random compositions, you learn positioning, you get better at targeting in the chaos of teamfighting. I have been having a really hard time filling the AD Carry role lately, but after a day of doing just ARAMs, I went 14-5-11 on Caitlyn and have seen marked improvement in my ability to discern correct positioning under pressure.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby omgryebread » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:03 pm UTC

So I haven't played since around Lulu. Is there anything I should be aware of coming back? Like crazy new champions or different meta, especially for support? It's still basically Soraka, Sona, Janna and all them, with 0 farm and warding everything? Is Lulu still an acceptable support?

I'm dreading having to play something other than support again, especially before I get back into things. Is Vlad still okay top? Has Lux been altered any? How is Shyvana doing in the jungle these days?
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Lostdreams » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:19 pm UTC

New skill trees and new items!

Lulu is an excellent support, the new support, Thresh, is good in higher ranked where you have good coordination, and there are now a bunch of new support items to choose from. (even though you'll still probably only use the same few)

Shyvana is an ok jungle still but amumu, xin, maplhite, and maokai are fotm right now; Vlad isn't as good top but there are plenty more tops that are viable now because of the new items; lux has no changes, is good mid, and decent support; bot is now more hostile with more aggressive supports added and the item changes.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Metaphysician » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:35 pm UTC

omgryebread wrote:So I haven't played since around Lulu. Is there anything I should be aware of coming back? Like crazy new champions or different meta, especially for support? It's still basically Soraka, Sona, Janna and all them, with 0 farm and warding everything? Is Lulu still an acceptable support?

I'm dreading having to play something other than support again, especially before I get back into things. Is Vlad still okay top? Has Lux been altered any? How is Shyvana doing in the jungle these days?


The support schema has changed. You still see Sona, she's very strong, Soraka is used sometimes. But the new oft-used supports are (in no particular order), Lulu (xpecial claims Lulu wins almost every lane), Taric, Blitzcrank, Nunu, Thresh (takes lots of coordination and your team needs to be at least somewhat aware of what's going on), and Leona. These supports do still go with very little CS overall, though feel free to pick some up once out of laning phase or if your AD carry isn't in lane at the time.

Lots of the newer supports, as you can see, favor aggression in the bottom lane over passive farming. This is largely because the passive supports got hit with a round of nerfs that made it much harder for them to sustain in lane against the aggressive supports.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Kag » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:56 am UTC

You forgot Zyra, who sees a lot of tournament play in the support role. Also support Jarvan is awesome.

omgryebread wrote:How is Shyvana doing in the jungle these days?


She functions basically the same as before, but still isn't a top tier pick for the same reasons. Jungle Vi is basically the overpowered version of Shyvana.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Adacore » Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:56 am UTC

The most commonly picked supports I see (mostly from tournaments and watching pro players' streams) are Lulu, Sona (ideally with Miss Fortune), Taric, Nunu (ideally with Caitlyn), Thresh, Blitzcrank, Janna and Zyra.

Common AD carries right now seem to be Ezrael, Miss Fortune, Caitlyn, Draven, Graves and Vayne. I've seen Urgot and Kennen played a few times in the last week or so, and Ashe, Twitch, Tristana and Kog'Maw are sometimes played too. I think the way Giants Gaming played Kennen in the first week of the LCS really popularised him in top level solo queue play.

And, because I'm bored and I have the information in front of me now, LCS week 1 picks per lane (where I can tell which champion went in which lane; that isn't always obvious - a lot of the bruisers could be either jungle or top):
Spoiler:
Top: Olaf (5), Nidalee (4), Shen (4), Renekton (3), Malphite (3), Elise (2), Katerina (2), Kayle (2), Akali (2), Xin Zhao (1), Lee Sin (1), Rumble (1), Wukong (1)

Jungle: Xin Zhao (6), Cho'Gath (4), Lee Sin (3), Olaf (3), Jarvan IV (3), Shen (2), Volibear (2), Nocturne (1), Trundle (1), Evelynn (1), Udyr (1), Maokai (1), Elise (1), Vi (1), Kayle (1), Dr Mundo (1)

Mid: Ryze (5), Twisted Fate (4), Kayle (3), Orianna (3), Anivia (3), Diana (2), Zyra (2), Kassadin (2), Syndra (1), Gragas (1), Kha'Zix (1), Urgot (1), Malphite (1), Lux (1), Wukong (1), Jayce (1)

AD: Ezrael (8), Caitlyn (7), Twitch (5), Miss Fortune (3), Kog'Maw (3), Graves (2), Kennen (2), Urgot (1), Corki (1)

Support: Lulu (10), Sona (9), Taric (5), Nunu (4), Alistar (2), Leona (1), Zyra (1)

So, uh, yeah - I'd say Lulu is still viable as a support. At top level play there seem to be only four major support champions, maybe half a dozen ADCs, and then a huge range of champions for the other three roles.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby emceng » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:37 pm UTC

Good thing I'm never going competitive. About the only champ on there I'm any good with is Xin, and I can't jungle with him.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby omgryebread » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:58 pm UTC

So I won mid on Leona last night. I mean, we lost twenty dollars and my self respect horribly because it was 3v5 (which is why I was mid on Leona), but still. That was neat. (Enemy Lux couldn't hit skillshots at all. She sometimes forgot to detonate E.) I also played with a Fiora on bot lane, and another person wanted to do it in selection chat. Is Fiora bot actually a thing? There was also an enemy playing Gangplank mid? Please tell me that's not a thing. Vi seems really good, I wish I wasn't poor so I could buy her. I played against a Thresh and with one, and I still don't know what any of his skills do, so I should probably read up on that.

Did Taric change? When I stopped playing I was under the impression he was a pretty poor support choice.

I think I'm slowly getting back into the swing of things, at least I hope. If anyone wants to add omgrye on NA servers, I'm always willing to support away.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Ixtellor » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:08 pm UTC

omgryebread wrote:Did Taric change?


I always play him as support because he is Tanky, has utility heal, and a great stun.

emceng wrote:Good thing I'm never going competitive. About the only champ on there I'm any good with is Xin


Anybody can play Malphite.

Question: In the competitive games, do they have Bans? Blitz, Shen, and Malphite are 100% banned in every ranked game I play.

I have played all three and am of the opinion they are OP -- and worthy of bans.

After those 3, Ammu is always banned. Followed by Darius and Morgana.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Lostdreams » Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:53 pm UTC

Kag wrote:You forgot Zyra, who sees a lot of tournament play in the support role. Also support Jarvan is awesome.

omgryebread wrote:How is Shyvana doing in the jungle these days?


She functions basically the same as before, but still isn't a top tier pick for the same reasons. Jungle Vi is basically the overpowered version of Shyvana.


Jarvan isn't really support, he's part of a kill lane comp. It's usually a Jarvan with Xin/Panth/Leona or any of those with each other. They kill the adc or trade an adc kill for one or the other and are left with the remaning bruiser vs a support and the bruiser wins lane. The goal is to deny the adc farm since the levels don't give the adc damage. If they can kill the adc outright they win completely and will almost totally deny the lane farm. If they trade a bruiser death for an adc death then the still win since both are getting kills/assists and at least one is getting the waves of farm that the adc is losing by being dead. It doesn't matter which bruiser gets the most farm since they can both fill the role.

With the new patch, expect to see more Riven in this role as well as back in top.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Kag » Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:08 pm UTC

Lostdreams wrote:Jarvan isn't really support, he's part of a kill lane comp. It's usually a Jarvan with Xin/Panth/Leona or any of those with each other. They kill the adc or trade an adc kill for one or the other and are left with the remaning bruiser vs a support and the bruiser wins lane. The goal is to deny the adc farm since the levels don't give the adc damage. If they can kill the adc outright they win completely and will almost totally deny the lane farm. If they trade a bruiser death for an adc death then the still win since both are getting kills/assists and at least one is getting the waves of farm that the adc is losing by being dead. It doesn't matter which bruiser gets the most farm since they can both fill the role.


I don't know why you're telling me all of this. When I said support Jarvan I meant it. He provides a laundry list of things that are useful in that role.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Lostdreams » Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:14 pm UTC

No farm Jarvan is a shitty Taric. The banner buff isn't as strong as Taric's aura, the range is smaller and isn't permanent, the ability to place it it situationally better but it is rarely optimal due to the need to use it to make the Q>E combo.

His knockup is dodgeable since it is a two-part cast and a skillshot, while Taric's stun is longer and nonskillshot. (In the case of cleanse it does lose, but the stun is on a very short timer.)

They both have armor shred but Jarvan's is % based in a line, while Taric's is flat and aoe. Normally, flat is worse but in Tarics case it starts out around strong and scales well also. Jarvan's shred would be better at tank killing late game but loses hard in every other respect. As far as the range is concerned the poke IS longer but is less of an issue since you only really use it after a target is stunned.

Taric has a heal and Jarvan has a a shield with a minor slow. Heal is better for sustain but slow can make a gank or an all in. The catch is, Jarvan can't level the shield because he's gotta level the poke or the banner to do any damage.

Jarvan's ult looks better from the outside and for ganks with jungle assistance it is, so long as flash is down. If flash isn't down it gets in the way of the team and still might hinder others if you were looking for a double and not a single kill as it may wall off the other potential kill. Taric's buff does ever so slightly less damage as an AoE and buffs your teammates for what will almost certainly be the rest of the engagement, not to mention it has half the cooldown.

Another hidden bonus that comes into play is that, short of the banner, Jarvan's damage is all physical but Taric's is all magic, save auto attacks. Armor runes and buffs are what people have in bot lane which is why Taric's burst damage is so deceptively high. I can't count the times people said wtf after an ult/shatter combo from Taric brought them to half in lane.

Jarvan does have a lot of the toolkit you'd expect to see in a support but he's pretty squishy without farm and his mana costs prevent him from sustaining a poke lane for long which is why you won't see him played as a true support higher up the ranks.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Kag » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:45 pm UTC

Oh for fuck's sake. Really?

Lostdreams wrote:No farm Jarvan is a shitty Taric. The banner buff isn't as strong as Taric's aura, the range is smaller and isn't permanent, the ability to place it it situationally better but it is rarely optimal due to the need to use it to make the Q>E combo.


Taric has to give up the buff to use Shatter. Realistically, in a fight Jarvan will have higher armor. Banner also has attack speed on it, which is kind of a big deal.

His knockup is dodgeable since it is a two-part cast and a skillshot, while Taric's stun is longer and nonskillshot. (In the case of cleanse it does lose, but the stun is on a very short timer.)


Technically, but not realistically on reaction. It happens in like a third of a second and the area of the knockup is huge. You also don't have five eternities to position yourself like a good player will against Taric's stun. Jarvan can also cc more than one person.

They both have armor shred but Jarvan's is % based in a line, while Taric's is flat and aoe. Normally, flat is worse but in Tarics case it starts out around strong and scales well also. Jarvan's shred would be better at tank killing late game but loses hard in every other respect. As far as the range is concerned the poke IS longer but is less of an issue since you only really use it after a target is stunned.


It's a bigger shred against just about anyone late game. And since anyone who isn't an idiot will walk away to avoid Taric's shatter after he stuns someone, you're way more likely to hit more than one person in lane.

Taric has a heal and Jarvan has a a shield with a minor slow. Heal is better for sustain but slow can make a gank or an all in. The catch is, Jarvan can't level the shield because he's gotta level the poke or the banner to do any damage.


You forgot that you can't sustain worth two shits with Taric's heal because he doesn't level it and it costs too much mana. Shield has a bigger impact early on, but they're both very small.

Jarvan's ult looks better from the outside and for ganks with jungle assistance it is, so long as flash is down. If flash isn't down it gets in the way of the team and still might hinder others if you were looking for a double and not a single kill as it may wall off the other potential kill. Taric's buff does ever so slightly less damage as an AoE and buffs your teammates for what will almost certainly be the rest of the engagement, not to mention it has half the cooldown.


You realize Jarvan can destroy the wall early by hitting R again, right? There is the potential to super screw it up, but if you're hindering your team with the cataclysm, it's just bad play.

Another hidden bonus that comes into play is that, short of the banner, Jarvan's damage is all physical but Taric's is all magic, save auto attacks. Armor runes and buffs are what people have in bot lane which is why Taric's burst damage is so deceptively high. I can't count the times people said wtf after an ult/shatter combo from Taric brought them to half in lane.


Yeah burst damage is kind of Taric's thing.

Jarvan does have a lot of the toolkit you'd expect to see in a support but he's pretty squishy without farm and his mana costs prevent him from sustaining a poke lane for long which is why you won't see him played as a true support higher up the ranks.


Whoever told you J4 has bad mana costs fucking lied to you, dude. If anyone has mana issues, it's Taric, who has terrible mana regen to compensate for his passive, which is almost useless in lane. The real reason you don't see him played as support is that all of the same reasons he works there make him super strong everywhere, so if you get the pick you might as well put him somewhere else and have some other super dive support like Taric or Lulu, which probably results in a better overall composition. That's not always an option in solo queue, though, so there are times when J4 support really works out.

Anyway, the more accurate comparison is Leona, and of all of them, you're probably not killing any remotely tanky support once they get a locket.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Biliboy » Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:16 pm UTC

I was going to say the same thing about farm as Lostdreams but he beat me to it. Support in the traditional sense, protecting the carry as he farms, is and should be reserved for back line buffers who can contribute with 0cs items. Tanks who do well bot as kill lane combos, JIV, shen, ali, maybe rammus? etc, all fall off hard later on if all they have is a couple +hundred health from shurelias vs standard tank builds with 250+ armor/mr as well as +2k health. The way to get those tank builds is from farm, which is why so many tanks jungle, or top, or get lots of assists bot.

I've done it myself with shen, good support in the sense of supplying sustain to a smart adc, tanky enough to zone his lane opponents, but if they are slippery enough to not die, he's useless later on with no gold. That's why I've never seen anyone but myself try shen bot, he works much better top or jungle. (seriously though, get a good poppy and duo bot with shen in a normal sometime, and be all in aggressive from lvl 1, when it works it is hilarious. A landed taunt near a wall is a free kill.)

Taric is one of those odd combo sustain/supporters who can be a front line tank, but he gets natural tankiness from his W to help make up the gold gap.

There's a big gap between workable and best use. That being said, yeah, metas are boring, so anything to shake it up is good.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby elminster » Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:57 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:Question: In the competitive games, do they have Bans? Blitz, Shen, and Malphite are 100% banned in every ranked game I play.
http://www.lolking.net/charts has a useful list of statistics if you haven't already seen it. It doesn't have bans by rating though it seems.

On Jarven as support: I can see Jarven potentially being played as support, but it's going to fail too much in the early levels to be viable against most setups. Any poke heavy combo would just harass hard enough early on that the ADC would get denied.

I can just see myself warding the bot bushes and poking Jarven to hell. If he engages he'll A) Be out of position with no option of escape w/o flash B) Have lower armor than other champs that engage that deep C) Not really do enough damage to burst you down D) Potentially miss allowing us to knock off a lot of his HP by CCing him in retreat. If he doesn't engage, either him or the ADC will be poked enough to force them out of the lane.
With Leona, you can try poke her, but she's too tanky and will counter with too much stun/damage combo in total to risk doing it. Taric has a reliable stun that can be used defensively and offensively, with a heal and so much armor that poking is difficult to be effective with.

In short, Jarven wouldn't be as effective as others in getting your ADC fed/farmed. Even at level 6 he offers limited utility compared to the other options.
Then again, I've probably only seen Jarven being played as support twice. Neither worked out well.
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