League of Legends

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Kag
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Kag » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:55 am UTC

elminster wrote:With Leona, you can try poke her, but she's too tanky and will counter with too much stun/damage combo in total to risk doing it.


Leona is only tanky with her W up. You better be poking her.

Biliboy wrote:Taric is one of those odd combo sustain/supporters who can be a front line tank, but he gets natural tankiness from his W to help make up the gold gap.


Here's the thing: he doesn't. If you're using Shatter (you should be), he gets 30 armor. That's all, which is one of the reasons Taric kind of falls off.

all fall off hard later on if all they have is a couple +hundred health from shurelias vs standard tank builds with 250+ armor/mr as well as +2k health.


That isn't really a standard tank build anymore. Resistances are overpriced and penetration is really strong. Health is generally better. A late-game tanky support build can easily budget a Locket and a Randuin's or something, which is enough to become ridiculously hard to kill most of the time. Even caster supports get pretty crunchy, since support items are generally very cost-efficient and loaded with defensive stats.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby elminster » Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:56 am UTC

Kag wrote:
elminster wrote:With Leona, you can try poke her, but she's too tanky and will counter with too much stun/damage combo in total to risk doing it.


Leona is only tanky with her W up. You better be poking her.
No other typical support can do all in damage/tankiness like leona. And there's only a few supports that can actually poke her without risking getting nuked (Lulu being the best). Nunu can harass her and give MS buffs to help avoid her, but still more likely to die than to push Leona out of the lane. Janna can kind of nullify Leonas engaging advantage.

I like playing Lux or Lulu vs Leona, but isn't not really needed if the AD's are mismatched. Draven can screw up any kind of adc/support comparison because his obscene damage with 2 Qs and if Leonas ADC can't follow up in passive triggers/damage, the higher damage ADC will win.

Leona is such a snowball champ bot lane though, once you get an advantage, you can completely deny them because such strong laning presence. Also another reason why you can't really risk engages, most other supports can't snowball as hard.
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BlackSails
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Re: League of Legends

Postby BlackSails » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:49 am UTC

Playing thresh makes me angrier than any other champion. There is nothing like throwing a lantern to set up a perfect gank or save someone, and that person you threw it to just doesnt click it.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Biliboy » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:38 am UTC

I tend to toss them the lantern anytime I can afford the mana/cooldown, so they get used to the cool 'click to move' thing. Also had a game yesterday in TT that was awesome.. sole survivor on my team, enemy team had a super low health teemo running away, tossed the hook out of frustration at teemo in general and at the extreme end of it's range it connected. "Aced!"

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Adacore » Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:08 am UTC

Ixtellor wrote:Question: In the competitive games, do they have Bans? Blitz, Shen, and Malphite are 100% banned in every ranked game I play.

I have played all three and am of the opinion they are OP -- and worthy of bans.

If you mean in tournaments like the LCS, yeah they do. Here are the picks and bans for the NA LCS from Leaguepedia. In week one Shen, Olaf, Elise and Kha'Zix were banned fairly often, I think. Blitz and Malphite weren't banned at all. In the top level tournaments a lot of the bans are targetted against the enemy team - the teams do research and work out what champions the opponents like to play that could counter what they want to do, then ban those champions out.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Drumheller769 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:08 pm UTC

I play Leona almost exclusively for support and if I have any ADC worth their salt I dare you to come try to poke me down. I will eat you and feed your CC'd to hell remains to my ADC :p. Also Leona's ult CD is OP, its so short for its utility.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby BlackSails » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:25 pm UTC

Drumheller769 wrote:I play Leona almost exclusively for support and if I have any ADC worth their salt I dare you to come try to poke me down. I will eat you and feed your CC'd to hell remains to my ADC :p. Also Leona's ult CD is OP, its so short for its utility.


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Re: League of Legends

Postby Drumheller769 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:52 pm UTC

With some ADC's, not all, like MF or Varus, I can win the all in against draven. But yea, hes hard to beat in lane.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Iceman » Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:31 pm UTC

If anyone is in the Toronto area, there is a 2v2 LoL tournament happening at Net Effect internet cafe at 9 Isabella St near Yonge & Bloor tomorrow, Saturday the 16th.

If you can go, check it out, if not, it'll be streamed on twitch.tv/esportscanadatv

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Lostdreams » Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:40 pm UTC

Kag wrote:Oh for fuck's sake. Really?

Really.

Kag wrote:
Lostdreams wrote:No farm Jarvan is a shitty Taric. The banner buff isn't as strong as Taric's aura, the range is smaller and isn't permanent, the ability to place it it situationally better but it is rarely optimal due to the need to use it to make the Q>E combo.

Taric has to give up the buff to use Shatter. Realistically, in a fight Jarvan will have higher armor. Banner also has attack speed on it, which is kind of a big deal.


Only for the first four seconds and if they are attacking him, his heal is more effective. Attack speed is less useful early game though it is useful. Heal is going to make up for that 10-16% in attack speed in most lane engagements though. In team fights Taric's ult/aura is better because attack speed applies to 1-2 champs in a game where attack damage/ability power applies to everyone.

Kag wrote:
Lostdreams wrote:His knockup is dodgeable since it is a two-part cast and a skillshot, while Taric's stun is longer and nonskillshot. (In the case of cleanse it does lose, but the stun is on a very short timer.)


Technically, but not realistically on reaction. It happens in like a third of a second and the area of the knockup is huge. You also don't have five eternities to position yourself like a good player will against Taric's stun. Jarvan can also cc more than one person.


If the Taric is throwing a stun from max range to do anything but catch an almost dead champ and secure the kill or to initiate a 3 or more man gank from a waaaay overextended lane, they're doing it wrong. Position isn't really that big of an issue

Kag wrote:
Lostdreams wrote:They both have armor shred but Jarvan's is % based in a line, while Taric's is flat and aoe. Normally, flat is worse but in Tarics case it starts out around strong and scales well also. Jarvan's shred would be better at tank killing late game but loses hard in every other respect. As far as the range is concerned the poke IS longer but is less of an issue since you only really use it after a target is stunned.


It's a bigger shred against just about anyone late game. And since anyone who isn't an idiot will walk away to avoid Taric's shatter after he stuns someone, you're way more likely to hit more than one person in lane.


If you're walking away from the person that got stunned then the Taric, most likely, needed to wait on the shatter since his adc will be ahead on the trade after a stun. Also, standing close is pretty stupid in almost every lane now, including ones that have a Taric or Jarvan.

30 flat armor reduction vs 26% armor reduction. For Jarvan's to be the same they need to have at least 115 armor or more. Tanks will have that mid game, some bruisers late game maybe. Adcs at any point in the game? Not very likely.


Kag wrote:
Lostdreams wrote:Taric has a heal and Jarvan has a a shield with a minor slow. Heal is better for sustain but slow can make a gank or an all in. The catch is, Jarvan can't level the shield because he's gotta level the poke or the banner to do any damage.


You forgot that you can't sustain worth two shits with Taric's heal because he doesn't level it and it costs too much mana. Shield has a bigger impact early on, but they're both very small.


Depends on the lane. The more the supports are targeted the more useful the shield and heal are. It's also not uncommon to level 1:1 heal:shatter if there is a large amount of AP based poke.

Kag wrote:
Lostdreams wrote:Jarvan's ult looks better from the outside and for ganks with jungle assistance it is, so long as flash is down. If flash isn't down it gets in the way of the team and still might hinder others if you were looking for a double and not a single kill as it may wall off the other potential kill. Taric's buff does ever so slightly less damage as an AoE and buffs your teammates for what will almost certainly be the rest of the engagement, not to mention it has half the cooldown.


You realize Jarvan can destroy the wall early by hitting R again, right? There is the potential to super screw it up, but if you're hindering your team with the cataclysm, it's just bad play.


Yes, I realize that and yes people make plenty of bad plays. I'm saying that in order to even use the closer and deal the damage the walls have to go up and that sometimes they get in the way.

Kag wrote:
Lostdreams wrote:Another hidden bonus that comes into play is that, short of the banner, Jarvan's damage is all physical but Taric's is all magic, save auto attacks. Armor runes and buffs are what people have in bot lane which is why Taric's burst damage is so deceptively high. I can't count the times people said wtf after an ult/shatter combo from Taric brought them to half in lane.


Yeah burst damage is kind of Taric's thing.


Burst wins trades and ganks.

Kag wrote:
Lostdreams wrote:Jarvan does have a lot of the toolkit you'd expect to see in a support but he's pretty squishy without farm and his mana costs prevent him from sustaining a poke lane for long which is why you won't see him played as a true support higher up the ranks.


Whoever told you J4 has bad mana costs fucking lied to you, dude. If anyone has mana issues, it's Taric, who has terrible mana regen to compensate for his passive, which is almost useless in lane. The real reason you don't see him played as support is that all of the same reasons he works there make him super strong everywhere, so if you get the pick you might as well put him somewhere else and have some other super dive support like Taric or Lulu, which probably results in a better overall composition. That's not always an option in solo queue, though, so there are times when J4 support really works out.

Anyway, the more accurate comparison is Leona, and of all of them, you're probably not killing any remotely tanky support once they get a locket.


Jarvan has pretty close to the same mana issues as Taric. He also has to get kills to remain as relevant late game as he would in any other lane which is why you don't see him support. If he were anywhere near as good with fewer items you would definitely see him picked more often at all as a true support.

I didn't pick Leona as comparable because she is more CC and less group buff oriented; She also can't deal the damage from her passive herself. Aside from the leash in, Taric and Jarvan share a lot more in common.


BlackSails wrote:
Drumheller769 wrote:I play Leona almost exclusively for support and if I have any ADC worth their salt I dare you to come try to poke me down. I will eat you and feed your CC'd to hell remains to my ADC :p. Also Leona's ult CD is OP, its so short for its utility.


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Caitlyn and Nidalee as well. Although that one is as risky a gambit as a kill lane.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Lostdreams » Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:47 pm UTC

Drumheller769 wrote:With some ADC's, not all, like MF or Varus, I can win the all in against draven. But yea, hes hard to beat in lane.


Leash in but don't immediately stun. Stun after he throws the axe so he misses the catch. Chances are, Alistar is probably saving it for the adc. Alternatively, when trying for a long distance engage, leash in just after the axe throw and it'll cause a missed catch also.
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TrlstanC wrote:But, I'm still curious, did no one else ever learn about creationism in science class at some point, at least those who went to public school?

Sorry, we just learned science.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Drumheller769 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:51 pm UTC

Nidalee cant do anything to disengage me from Cait, so Ill zone the caitlyn out of lane, or jump all over her at 3.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Lostdreams » Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:05 pm UTC

Drumheller769 wrote:Nidalee cant do anything to disengage me from Cait, so Ill zone the caitlyn out of lane, or jump all over her at 3.


They are both long range poke champs, if you land an engage then they played the lane poorly. Played right you will end up behind the minions and eventually at tower. There will be traps everywhere and when you step on one you'll immediately be poked; if it was Caitlyn's you'll get a charged shot and a javelin and maybe be dead.

I'm actually expecting to see more Cait/Nid lanes since the Nunu nerf.
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TrlstanC wrote:But, I'm still curious, did no one else ever learn about creationism in science class at some point, at least those who went to public school?

Sorry, we just learned science.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Drumheller769 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:22 pm UTC

Its not hard to stand in minions to stop spear, and avoid Caits poke. If Cait gets too aggressive Ill be all over her. The only problem I ever have is my ADC not following up sometimes.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Weeks » Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:28 pm UTC

I find myself laughing in games more often lately, especially late game if I'm winning as Teemo. Or if I'm dodging Nidalee spears. I always try to be sportsmanlike in chat, but are emotes fair game?
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Drumheller769 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:32 pm UTC

I think if you are spamming it non stop for minutes on end, you have gone to far, but spamming it say for 10 seconds when your 500AP mushroom field slaughters the other team is ok.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Kag » Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:45 pm UTC

Lostdreams wrote:Jarvan has pretty close to the same mana issues as Taric.


No, he absolutely does not. He has a slightly lower mana pool, MUCH better base mana regen, and WAY lower costs across the board. In all of those respects, Jarvan's mana management is virtually identical to Leona, who doesn't really have issues.

some bruisers late game maybe.


Bruisers are easily over 115 armor by late game if they have armor seals and buy any armor item.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Lostdreams » Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:49 pm UTC

Weeks wrote:I find myself laughing in games more often lately, especially late game if I'm winning as Teemo. Or if I'm dodging Nidalee spears. I always try to be sportsmanlike in chat, but are emotes fair game?


If you press it before the mushroom slow wears off it works like Rammus' taunt.

Kag wrote:
Lostdreams wrote:Jarvan has pretty close to the same mana issues as Taric.


No, he absolutely does not. He has a slightly lower mana pool, MUCH better base mana regen, and WAY lower costs across the board. In all of those respects, Jarvan's mana management is virtually identical to Leona, who doesn't really have issues.

some bruisers late game maybe.


Bruisers are easily over 115 armor by late game if they have armor seals and buy any armor item.


Leona's mana is more of an improvement over Jarvan's as Jarvan's is over Taric's. Her base mana is the same and both her regen and scaling regen are much higher. Jarvan's regen is 2 points higher but his scaling, the part that matters more, is almost the same. (.5 higher) I will concede the costs being higher but Taric isn't prone to skill spamming so there's that to consider.

Bruisers can get plenty of armor but Taric isn't the only one with armor shreds either. In teamplay, You're team's bruisers probably also have cleavers by that point and your adc probably has either a black cleaver, last whisper, or both by the time bruisers are achieving that much armor, effectively dropping that number below the cutoff even after aegis aura is figured into the picture.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Kag » Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:13 pm UTC

Lostdreams wrote:Bruisers can get plenty of armor but Taric isn't the only one with armor shreds either. In teamplay, You're team's bruisers probably also have cleavers by that point and your adc probably has either a black cleaver, last whisper, or both by the time bruisers are achieving that much armor, effectively dropping that number below the cutoff even after aegis aura is figured into the picture.


I get the impression that you didn't actually do the math yourself, or you don't know how armor reduction/penetration mechanics work, since the amount of penetration for your attacker (your carry having a last whisper, etc.) has zero bearing on the difference between the two debuffs, and since percentage reductions are multiplicative, and come after flat reductions, obviously both debuffs are affected equally. The cutoff only changes if there are other sources of flat armor reduction, which are only Corki, Kog'Maw, Nasus, Rammus, and Taric. If there aren't any of those applied, they are both equally effective when the target has about 115.3845 normal armor.

e: also Taric's armor shred may be eating a nerf (sorta?) soon, so there's that.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby DaBigCheez » Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:48 am UTC

Kag wrote:I get the impression that you didn't actually do the math yourself, or you don't know how armor reduction/penetration mechanics work, since the amount of penetration for your attacker (your carry having a last whisper, etc.) has zero bearing on the difference between the two debuffs, and since percentage reductions are multiplicative, and come after flat reductions, obviously both debuffs are affected equally. The cutoff only changes if there are other sources of flat armor reduction, which are only Corki, Kog'Maw, Nasus, Rammus, and Taric. If there aren't any of those applied, they are both equally effective when the target has about 115.3845 normal armor.

e: also Taric's armor shred may be eating a nerf (sorta?) soon, so there's that.

I believe they changed the underlined in Season 3, and that percentage reductions are now applied before flat reductions. They may have since reverted that change, though.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Kag » Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:59 am UTC

That's an easy mistake to make. What they changed was the order of penetration effects. Reductions stayed the same. The order is now
flat reduction > % reduction > % penetration > flat penetration
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Biliboy » Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:46 am UTC

Back on the subject of breaking the meta and odd lane comps, I heard someone mention one time leona/lux bot lane to take advantage of their passives for nice burst, has anyone tried it? What other weird synergies might work like that? I think taric + cait traps is a thing, though I've never faced it myself. Come to think of it, Leona and Thresh might be scary, with thresh building bruiser, and a slippery adc like corki taking top instead. Thresh q passive + Leona procs, there goes half of your health, and the rest of the health as you try to limp way between chains, stuns, slows, and knockups.

There's also that amusing blitzcrank grab + thresh lantern click to drag someone from middle-bot lane into your turret, but I'm thinking that's not something you'll see everyday.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Kag » Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:57 am UTC

Fiddlesticks+Rumble and Soraka+Karthus are two unusual bot lanes I've heard of. Never tried them, though. Also, never forget the legend of support Wukong.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Lostdreams » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:37 pm UTC

Kag wrote:
Lostdreams wrote:Bruisers can get plenty of armor but Taric isn't the only one with armor shreds either. In teamplay, You're team's bruisers probably also have cleavers by that point and your adc probably has either a black cleaver, last whisper, or both by the time bruisers are achieving that much armor, effectively dropping that number below the cutoff even after aegis aura is figured into the picture.


I get the impression that you didn't actually do the math yourself, or you don't know how armor reduction/penetration mechanics work, since the amount of penetration for your attacker (your carry having a last whisper, etc.) has zero bearing on the difference between the two debuffs, and since percentage reductions are multiplicative, and come after flat reductions, obviously both debuffs are affected equally. The cutoff only changes if there are other sources of flat armor reduction, which are only Corki, Kog'Maw, Nasus, Rammus, and Taric. If there aren't any of those applied, they are both equally effective when the target has about 115.3845 normal armor.

e: also Taric's armor shred may be eating a nerf (sorta?) soon, so there's that.



Yes, the armor reduction effects order is changed in S3 with % based first. I did screw up on the cleaver/flat pen, however, because Last Whiper and Jarvan's buff are multiplicative, the new break would be 161.5383(old break plus 40%) if Last Whisper is in play. Effectively it means Taric is the winner in early, mid, and super late game, while Jarvan wins in late game, generally. (obviously if a bruiser is fed and buys armor and Jarvan levels Q faster it would be more effective versus that bruiser; games being unique and all)

Sadly, they are nerfing adjusting Taric because of his early game. They are changing it to the same percent based debuff as Jarvan so at the very least we should have a direct comparison shortly. My hope is that his early game is slightly nerfed and his late game is made more potent.

I am actually looking forward to the changes because of the potential for anti-towerdive bonus late game. The tank will walk in and take 3 tower shots no problem and then try to get out when the multiplier starts to add up. A CC/ult/shatter and 2 more tower hits with the damage bonus stacks and armor reduction will end up bursting enough to let the group easily kill a tank.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Kag » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:25 pm UTC

Lostdreams wrote:because Last Whiper and Jarvan's buff are multiplicative, the new break would be 161.5383(old break plus 40%) if Last Whisper is in play.


Okay now you're just trying to mess with me. It's multiplicative with both of them (so is Black Cleaver). Again, only flat reduction effects change the breakpoint. Put it in a spreadsheet yourself if you don't believe me.

Also, the changes on the PBE didn't make it a percentage reduction effect. Shatter still shreds for the same amount. Currently, the armor aura for allies is now a percentage of taric's armor, the damage has an armor ratio, and he loses the armor buff for the entire cooldown of the spell instead of just four seconds.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Ixtellor » Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:54 pm UTC

I need an addon that automatically deletes LoL from my harddrive if I ever log into a Ranked game. There is zero enjoyment in those total garbage games.

Unranked games seem to still be ok, but ranked - the people who created the algorithms for rank should be summarily executed. If I had 100 RP for every 0-10 bottom I witnessed I would have every hero and every skin by now.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby omgryebread » Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:09 pm UTC

Wow. Okay, seriously, how do you lane against Master Yi? He has a strong undodgeable nuke with like a billion range, he can CS just fine even though he's melee, because he has a heal and because alpha strike makes him basically impossible to harass. I pretty much had to last hit under tower, go back a lot, and generally get a miserable creep score. I don't think it would have mattered anyway, since bot lane was also doing miserably, but just for future reference, does anyone have any tips? I was playing as Ahri, but I don't see how I could have beaten him on anyone, except maybe an equally frustrating champ like Fizz.


Also, a pet peeve. If you call support, ward. I really don't get why people insist on playing support and then don't the single most important thing a support does. It's 75 gold every 3 minutes that makes it vastly harder for a gank on your lane to succeed.

Speaking of wards: I usually ward outside of dragon pit, with view of dragon and the entire river. On blue, at least, the only way to get ganked is through the lane, or if they go through our jungle, past red and into our tribrush. But some people ward the river brush. I don't see the point in this. It gives you less notice and doesn't give you a view of dragon, and the enemy can't get their without going through a ward at dragon, unless they can jump that low wall. And even then, you can place a ward to give you vision of that whole wall and still give you vision of just outside dragon. Couple it with a ward at the brush just below mid lane (not the one bordering lane, but the curved one beneath it) and you have total vision of the river. Am I missing something that makes river brush a good place to ward?
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Re: League of Legends

Postby 3fj » Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:27 pm UTC

omgryebread wrote:Wow. Okay, seriously, how do you lane against Master Yi? He has a strong undodgeable nuke with like a billion range, he can CS just fine even though he's melee, because he has a heal and because alpha strike makes him basically impossible to harass. I pretty much had to last hit under tower, go back a lot, and generally get a miserable creep score. I don't think it would have mattered anyway, since bot lane was also doing miserably, but just for future reference, does anyone have any tips? I was playing as Ahri, but I don't see how I could have beaten him on anyone, except maybe an equally frustrating champ like Fizz.


Also, a pet peeve. If you call support, ward. I really don't get why people insist on playing support and then don't the single most important thing a support does. It's 75 gold every 3 minutes that makes it vastly harder for a gank on your lane to succeed.

Speaking of wards: I usually ward outside of dragon pit, with view of dragon and the entire river. On blue, at least, the only way to get ganked is through the lane, or if they go through our jungle, past red and into our tribrush. But some people ward the river brush. I don't see the point in this. It gives you less notice and doesn't give you a view of dragon, and the enemy can't get their without going through a ward at dragon, unless they can jump that low wall. And even then, you can place a ward to give you vision of that whole wall and still give you vision of just outside dragon. Couple it with a ward at the brush just below mid lane (not the one bordering lane, but the curved one beneath it) and you have total vision of the river. Am I missing something that makes river brush a good place to ward?


I think you have to eat his alpha strike. His main weakness is that the cooldown on alpha strike is pretty large early game and he's a bit of a non-entity whilst it's on cooldown. Use any CC you have to interrupt his meditate (in Ahri's case, the taunt would work) then pile as much damage in exchange as you can. The point is, you can't let his poke go un-exchanged, and as an AP mid, you should have enough tools to counter-damage one-trick ponies like AP Yi.

As for wards, the river-brush ward is more an act of necessity than of optimal play. I always place one outside dragon and in the tri when I can, but some junglers and lane-comps threaten to cut off your escape when you go to ward the dragon pit, and no wards is better than some ward. However, with someone like Hecarim jungle, the risk of putting down a dragon ward is always worth it, because that charge means he'll speed passed any other ward you put down, making it less than useless.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Intrigued » Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:00 pm UTC

Ahri should definitely handle Yi. His only attack spell puts him right next to the creep or champ he is targeting, and gives you a second to line up your spells before he shows up there. Make sure you punish him whenever he uses it, or even block him out of lane from doing it. Try to keep an open lane from yourself to him at all times, so that you can get a taunt off on him if he tries to heal up. Constantly peg him with the extra damage from ranged attacks whenever he comes in to creep early on, this will add up to a lot of damage at low levels. Use ignite to counter his heal if/when you need to. His cooldowns are pretty long early on, so you should be able to punish him every time he tries something. With this aggressive playstyle, make sure you keep at least one of your sides warded and hang out on that side so you have a free lane of escape in case the jungler comes from the other one.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Ixtellor » Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:29 pm UTC

omgryebread wrote:Also, a pet peeve. If you call support, ward. I really don't get why people insist on playing support and then don't the single most important thing a support does. It's 75 gold every 3 minutes that makes it vastly harder for a gank on your lane to succeed.


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Re: League of Legends

Postby elminster » Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:12 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:Unranked games seem to still be ok, but ranked - the people who created the algorithms for rank should be summarily executed. If I had 100 RP for every 0-10 bottom I witnessed I would have every hero and every skin by now.
I think the major problem with bot is that the two players need to be working in sync, unlike other lanes. Against kill combos in bot, managing creep waves, warding, harassing/counter harassing becomes far more technical than other lanes to even play safely. Also, bot lane is such a snowball lane that it only takes a small positioning mistake to essentially lose the lane.

I was in the process of leveling my smurf yesterday, largely doing Lux support. About 3/4 of the games resulted in our ADC getting the most fed (Even when we lost). Around 1/2 the games had Diamond/Platinum rated people in them, so they weren't bad. The biggest reason why the enemy team won/lost was the players not playing in sync.

Examples:
If the support goes to ward dragon and the ADC doesn't move back, they WILL take harass or be killed.
If ADC or support gets back to lane without the other, they'll be harassed and possibly killed.
If you have a weak level 1 team, you better be prepared to hold of a lvl 1 kill attempt; Excellent example here is Sona who has the lowest starting armor of any champ in the game, typically starts with Q and often doesn't realise how easy they are to kill.
Timing sheild, harass and positioning such that your team takes no damage, and their team takes twice as much.
Baiting counter harass, while harassing with other lane member.
Forcing enemy lane to push by intentionally taking 1 hit early on (If you're going to risk pushing early on, esp. with enemy ganker that's good for early gank, you have to put them at a significant disadvantage).

In these cases, not working together will cause you to lose, even if you're both superior players. E.g. We got demolished in one game due to a premade (Same ranked team) platinum rated duo bot who were perfectly in sync with plays. I doubt I could have won at all without someone that I'd practised with.

Also, as a support I ward the fuck out of everything. 2 Things lower rating players consistently forget is A) Enemy can time their ganks to coincide with your wards dissapearing, B) Enemy gank from the bushes along the very bottom corner of the map, so warding there is worth more than just being able to see what their support is up to (Also lets you know when to deny enemy ADC if you see support leaving).

Side note on wards: If you're playing from blue side, having your mid ward such that you can see jungler going into your red buff jungle area serves a few purposes: A) Protects your jungler while doing red B) Protects bot from ganks from behind via tribush C) Gives view of their mid either going their blue, your red, ganking bot, or just moving into position for better attack position in mid. D) Early warning of dragon attempt. E) Protects mid from ganks from that side.
Notably, mid warding there gives FAR FAR FAR more defence against ganks from behind than a tribush ward from bot. So just because you're mid doesn't mean you're exempt from warding duty. It's the kind of plays which doesn't show up in score but make the difference between winning and losing for bot.
Also, if bot really are too bad to ward and you're doing well in mid. Ward for them.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Ixtellor » Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:33 pm UTC

elminster wrote:I think the major problem with bot is that the two players need to be working in sync, unlike other lanes.


I think your talking about gold league or higher.

In Silver league the three biggest problems are.

1) Spam auto-attacking instead of last hitting.
This means your bottom is always pushing the other team.... allowing them to tower hug and making it easier to get ganked. Or typically they will push then tower, then tower dive in an attempt to get a kill, only to both die.

I never die Mid because I NEVER get caught pushing the lane. When I do spam my spells and wipe out a creep wave, its because I intend to leave -- usually to gank top or bottom depending on who pushed further. Most in silver league push hard -- only to die.

I must have typed "Please last hit instead of spamming" so many times I have screen burn.

2) No wards.
Enough said. I played (my last ranked match ever) in which not a single ward was purchased by anyone other than ME Jungle Xin. Bottom and Top got constantly ganked and it was quickly a 4-20 situation.

3) Map Awareness.
They place the wards, but dont' actually watch the minimap so they end up getting easily ganked anyway.
Or the classic - The entire enemy team is MIA, some fools push a tower -- BAM Dead. To which they instantly reply "You F****** didnt' call out MIA!!!" Then rage quit.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby elminster » Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:47 pm UTC

Yeah I guess. Although anyone who autoattacks constantly instead of last hitting deserves to be in silver or below.

The way I see it, if you're significantly above the people you're matched with, you have to win the other lanes for them. Personally I assume other lanes are likely to fail if I do nothing to help them at low elo. You can't force people to play better, but you can play such that they're not such a big effect.
Taking teleport is a good example. Even when being mid and it lowering your chances for a kill, it allows you to turn 2v2 loss into a 3v2 win in other lanes.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Adacore » Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:57 pm UTC

The method pro players seem to use to get out of low rank games with terrible players quickly when they're levelling up smurfs is to pick a champion in a solo lane (mid or top) that can snowball hard and become a mid-game beast, get really good on that champion, then play them every game until you're at a reasonable ranking.

Duo queuing with the above strategy works well too - I saw a stream where two pro players on the same team duo-queued with smurfs as mid and jungle (I think it was Nyjacky and Saintvicious from Curse), and they went undefeated for their first 22 games.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Weeks » Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:49 am UTC

Buwberry, member of team PECS, the winner of the weekly Dominate Dominion contest for 12 weeks straight (and about 90% of the rest), is putting up a bounty of $300 to assemble a team and beat them from this Saturday till May 25th. That will be in addition to the regular prize given each Saturday for 1st place ($20 RP per person + Triumphant Ryze skin).

Just thought I'd let you guys know. Here's the thread on the LoL forums: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/sho ... ?t=3146512
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Lostdreams » Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:12 pm UTC

Kag wrote:
Lostdreams wrote:because Last Whiper and Jarvan's buff are multiplicative, the new break would be 161.5383(old break plus 40%) if Last Whisper is in play.


Okay now you're just trying to mess with me. It's multiplicative with both of them (so is Black Cleaver). Again, only flat reduction effects change the breakpoint. Put it in a spreadsheet yourself if you don't believe me.


Sorry. I mathed that wrong, 178.5719.

Kag wrote:Also, the changes on the PBE didn't make it a percentage reduction effect. Shatter still shreds for the same amount. Currently, the armor aura for allies is now a percentage of taric's armor, the damage has an armor ratio, and he loses the armor buff for the entire cooldown of the spell instead of just four seconds.


Well, shit. It looks like Taric is going to be solely an AD counter champ and Frozen Heart is going to be replacing Aegis of the Legion as his main build to item. We might even start seeing Ninja Tabis.

Overall I dont like the change. They want to make Taric aggressive in lane but the reason he is passive is that every single melee support champ has two forms of CC, a gap closer and a main CC. Taric has one, non-skillshot stun. He lacks the skills needed to truly outplay anyone in lane. Going into a Taric fight you know a couple of things: He's going to stun someone and he's going to shatter. What makes this different from Alistar, Blitz, or Leona is that you also know he is definitely going to land those, only the stun really makes a difference in your actions, and, other than positioning, you can't do shit about it because it doesn't miss. At best you'll see a flash away from the stun cast if someone was horribly out of position but the stun will still hit.

The only deaths come from misjudging damage in lane or not waiting for the stun to pop skills.

In my mind the solution is to lower the scaling add a small(think Maokai's Arcane Smash) knockback to his shatter and lower the damage accordingly.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby ProZac » Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:30 pm UTC

Taric doesn't need any buffs, he's absolutely ridiculous as a support (and has the highest support win rate to back it up), and ranks up there with Blitz for "bullshit to deal with". He's extremely bursty for a support, has a heal to help sustain, a targeted stun (meaning there's no missing it), makes his lane tankier, and has a damage steroid. He has literally everything a support would want, just lacking excelling in any particular area. I find he's like Blitz in that you have to play exceptionally careful to avoid him, because getting hit by that stun pretty much means you're losing half your HP.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Drumheller769 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:03 pm UTC

Yea, for how often Taric is picked hes the least annoying support to lane against for me as Leona/Sona.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Lostdreams » Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:32 pm UTC

ProZac wrote:Taric doesn't need any buffs, he's absolutely ridiculous as a support (and has the highest support win rate to back it up), and ranks up there with Blitz for "bullshit to deal with". He's extremely bursty for a support, has a heal to help sustain, a targeted stun (meaning there's no missing it), makes his lane tankier, and has a damage steroid. He has literally everything a support would want, just lacking excelling in any particular area. I find he's like Blitz in that you have to play exceptionally careful to avoid him, because getting hit by that stun pretty much means you're losing half your HP.


Definitely not buffs. I was thinking that the knockback would come at the cost of the burst he has now. Lower the damage but increase the skill-play potential.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Ixtellor » Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:08 pm UTC

1) What is the point of a Smuff account? Aren't u just losing points to spend on heros and stuff?

2) Can you sell LoL accounts? I assume it is NOT legal, but do people sell them? I feel like the game is an evil addiction only matched in frustration by Dota.
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