League of Legends

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Metaphysician
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Metaphysician » Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:23 am UTC

Weeks wrote:I don't think there's anything particularly bad about smurfing. Play below level 30 is not as serious.


Yeah, and I try to help my teammates learn about the game when I do it. For instance. The other day I taught a newbie Lux that he could detonate his E by tapping it again after he had already cast it.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Ixtellor » Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:57 pm UTC

SOO close to silver, stuck in bronze 1.

On a major losing streak. Just played a game as Janna where my teammates said "Our Janna is amazing" "incredible"... GOD why have you forsaken me?

I play kassadin mid now and SCUBA the flibbity-floo out of it, and still can't end this lose streak.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby BlackSails » Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:29 am UTC

Metaphysician wrote:
Weeks wrote:I don't think there's anything particularly bad about smurfing. Play below level 30 is not as serious.


Yeah, and I try to help my teammates learn about the game when I do it. For instance. The other day I taught a newbie Lux that he could detonate his E by tapping it again after he had already cast it.


I started a smurf account recently, and taught people that lux with 30 kills can literally burst down your entire team.

(Yes, i feel bad)

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Aaeriele » Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:17 am UTC

Lostdreams wrote:In a vacuum that might be a good idea but, realistically, that is a terrible idea. Gimmick teams are inherently disrespected. Even if they had a image of "Real girls playing LoL" and not the "LOL girlz playing" that usually gets pushed, the message they are trying to voice won't start to reach the audience that needs it the most until they can win the respect they need to make people pay attention, which is placing high in a tournament. If, by magic, a five girl team can be put together that has the skill, cohesiveness, coordination, coaching, and all the other things that keep teams from falling apart long enough to win (which even top teams end up doing anyway) then we might be able to see more recognition faster. Essentially, you would need the perfect storm.

I think you misread what I said. I specifically said that I agree with you that the "latter" (constructed all-girl teams) is a bad idea. What I was saying is sometimes useful are completely female leagues.

Lostdreams wrote:What will probably need to happen is the same shitty slow infiltration that is seen everywhere else. If few skilled female players can make it into some top team and perform well during tournaments, it would be a tremendous force of change. It would no doubt be hard on the trailblazers but the impact of having someone like Doublelift or Saint say that a female member is important and take up the same pro-women-gamer banner would be huge move forward, piggybacking on their already existing fanbase and "credibility".

But see, you're thinking one step too far. Having women-only leagues is a way of creating the pathway for more women to break into the regular leagues. The reason why it requires a "perfect storm" to have female players make it in the regular leagues right now is because there's already so few of them due to the existing environment. So instead, you create another environment, one without the baked-in issues, and use it to foster more players who can then transplant themselves into the original environment, having already acquired some of the skills they need to do well there.

Lostdreams wrote:An all female league is a really bad idea until the number of females in the playerbase increases. It would be improbable enough to find five females that could come together as a team and make things happen on par with current teams using the reduced pool we have now but several of them together, is damned impossible. Worse than that, if a women's league is made and the teams are subpar, then members of the "men's league" will inevitably be asked to comment on them by e-sports press and while Alex Ich might sugar coat the need for improvement in a few areas, some others I expect to be less kind, with their respective fanbases watching the whole time.

I think that your reasoning here is kind of bullshit. You're basically saying "we shouldn't have a place for people to develop their skills, because they don't have skills yet." Don't you see the catch-22 inherent in your logic?

(Also, "females" as a noun sounds incredibly cold. Let's go with "women".)

Adacore wrote:I played a different game for about 5 years in variety of teams (with 5-8 players per team), and the teams I was on had a female player more often than not. Now, obviously I'm coming at this as a male, so maybe I missed things, but I don't think the atmosphere was at all sexist within those teams. Sure, the audience, if/when we had one, could still be sexist, but in the team the fact that one of the players was female just wasn't relevant - we were all good friends, had a similar skill level in the game, and spent as much time chatting and joking around out of the game as we did playing it.

It's possible that other teams with a minority of female players did have problems, or that sexism doesn't occur when you're together in the team, but is prevalent in the selection process for new players. But if you're in a serious competitive gaming team, you're spending a lot of time with this small group of people - tens or hundreds of hours a week - and that tends to result in fairly close team bonding (or, if it doesn't, players leaving the team due to internal disagreements), and not much room for prejudice against your teammates.

Having said that, I don't have anything against all-female leagues, per se. They could provide a safer arena for females to play competitively, although the improvement you'd see would be far less than if they were competing in an open field. The problem I have is if they are given large prize money pools and advertised to non-female gamers, because in my experience the advertising is almost universally of the 'sex sells' variety.

Honestly, sexism within teams is less of an issue than sexism in the overall environment. E-sports players don't magically appear out of nowhere one day with all the skills they need to win - they get there by playing non-pro games and learning like everyone else. If the overall community is sexist, then that hurts the overall e-sports rosters as well.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Drumheller769 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:44 am UTC

Ixtellor wrote:SOO close to silver, stuck in bronze 1.

On a major losing streak. Just played a game as Janna where my teammates said "Our Janna is amazing" "incredible"... GOD why have you forsaken me?

I play kassadin mid now and SCUBA the flibbity-floo out of it, and still can't end this lose streak.

Please re-read Gaming Rule #1 -ST



I havent read the rules in so long that I didnt know what rule one was. I then thought SCUBAflibbity-floo was a new term for faceroll :D I need some of that now, made it up to 40lp in S1 and now im on a losing streak, barely getting enough wins to hang onto S1, but I keep getting all the low golds who just dont care anymore. Last night I had a shaco who kept 1v5ing just to see if he could kill someone....so lame.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Intrigued » Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:41 pm UTC

I wonder if that's what I'm running into. I'm verging on getting past g1 and I've noticed that all the sudden I have seen more afkers/leavers than I have in a while. Possibly P5 players who don't care anymore? Honestly though they've all seemed super childish and the type that wouldn't have ever cared. Real annoying.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby 3fj » Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:26 pm UTC

It's my experience that there's a significant portion of people who sit in the 5th league of any division (bar Bronze) have been boosted there by either a good duo partner or someone taking their account. They tend to AFK or troll knowing that there's nothing that can bust them down a division. So you're getting lower-tier players boasting that they're Gold/Plat/Diamond and just ruining your day.

I'm Bronze 1 at the moment, and I keep playing in drips and drabs so the decay is ruining me (I mean, I've had the "Hot Streak" bonus since the beginning of the seasons). There's nothing quite like playing with Silver 5s to ruin your day.

That said, I'm also pretty bad at the game. I have most of the elements down, it's just a case of getting them to cohere into making decent plays.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Drumheller769 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:26 pm UTC

Yup...there's at least one sometimes 2 in every game, and you just have to hope they aren't both on your team.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Lostdreams » Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:07 pm UTC

Aaeriele wrote:
Lostdreams wrote:In a vacuum that might be a good idea but, realistically, that is a terrible idea. Gimmick teams are inherently disrespected. Even if they had a image of "Real girls playing LoL" and not the "LOL girlz playing" that usually gets pushed, the message they are trying to voice won't start to reach the audience that needs it the most until they can win the respect they need to make people pay attention, which is placing high in a tournament. If, by magic, a five girl team can be put together that has the skill, cohesiveness, coordination, coaching, and all the other things that keep teams from falling apart long enough to win (which even top teams end up doing anyway) then we might be able to see more recognition faster. Essentially, you would need the perfect storm.

I think you misread what I said. I specifically said that I agree with you that the "latter" (constructed all-girl teams) is a bad idea. What I was saying is sometimes useful are completely female leagues.
I did indeed miread, though Adacore made the original statment.

Aaeriele wrote:
Lostdreams wrote:What will probably need to happen is the same shitty slow infiltration that is seen everywhere else. If few skilled female players can make it into some top team and perform well during tournaments, it would be a tremendous force of change. It would no doubt be hard on the trailblazers but the impact of having someone like Doublelift or Saint say that a female member is important and take up the same pro-women-gamer banner would be huge move forward, piggybacking on their already existing fanbase and "credibility".

But see, you're thinking one step too far. Having women-only leagues is a way of creating the pathway for more women to break into the regular leagues. The reason why it requires a "perfect storm" to have female players make it in the regular leagues right now is because there's already so few of them due to the existing environment. So instead, you create another environment, one without the baked-in issues, and use it to foster more players who can then transplant themselves into the original environment, having already acquired some of the skills they need to do well there.


Aaeriele wrote:
Lostdreams wrote:An all female league is a really bad idea until the number of females in the playerbase increases. It would be improbable enough to find five females that could come together as a team and make things happen on par with current teams using the reduced pool we have now but several of them together, is damned impossible. Worse than that, if a women's league is made and the teams are subpar, then members of the "men's league" will inevitably be asked to comment on them by e-sports press and while Alex Ich might sugar coat the need for improvement in a few areas, some others I expect to be less kind, with their respective fanbases watching the whole time.

I think that your reasoning here is kind of bullshit. You're basically saying "we shouldn't have a place for people to develop their skills, because they don't have skills yet." Don't you see the catch-22 inherent in your logic?


I didn't say women don't have the skills, they do. Personal skill and team skill are a totally diffent animal, any top league player can tell you that. This is why women can't support a league right now. If the playerbase is 80/20 and we see the same eight teams playing the last rounds of tournaments then we should have enough women to fill two teams. The problem is that even the top teams suffer from roster changes because of lack of cohesion and then place poorly until they invest enough time to get their groove back. Not to mention if you real-life roll poorly and end up with 4 people that main ADC and no one that mains jungle, you won't even manage one team.

Aaeriele wrote:Honestly, sexism within teams is less of an issue than sexism in the overall environment. E-sports players don't magically appear out of nowhere one day with all the skills they need to win - they get there by playing non-pro games and learning like everyone else. If the overall community is sexist, then that hurts the overall e-sports rosters as well.


This is all the more reason that leagues shouldn't be segregated. If the sexism is less of an issue in the existing team leagues then segregation loses it's advantages. Women playing the game are still going to be impacted by the everyday realms first and far more than than the pro-league teams. SO what needs to change is the mindset of the players on the realms. Inserting the same 10 women into the existing, now co-ed, leagues would give them the mobility to play the lanes they perform best in(reducing the failure rate), getting the respect they need, and securing their legitimacy as solid players to the sexist portion of the player base, the ones that need the convincing.

For clarification, by "leagues" we are talking about tournament leagues such as WVW National Elite Cup but for women teams, not an in-game ladder for women or a realm for women, such as a Women's Silver IV or EU-W Women, respectively, right?
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Weeks » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:00 pm UTC

Drumheller769 wrote:Yup...there's at least one sometimes 2 in every game, and you just have to hope they aren't both on your team.
I suppose duoing with someone in the same rank would help alleviate that problem. I prefer to duo with people sometimes in blinds when I don't feel like hoping for no assholes on my team.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Intrigued » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:06 pm UTC

Grouping with people can be a plus and a minus. It's nice going into it not thinking about all the randoms who are totally trash that you are going to have to deal with. On the other hand, if they aren't in (roughly) the same mindset as you in terms of how much you are actually playing to win/get better vs just screwing around (both totally valid ways to play the game), it can cause compounded frustration when you have someone acting like a random, but who you can't, from a socially acceptable perspective, get mad at.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Weeks » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:16 pm UTC

It's a good thing to establish before going into the game what your intentions are, be it tryharding or just playing for funsies. I've duo'd with both kinds, and only a couple of actual friends have been frustrating to play with, but that's more because of their own personality than anything else. If you're unwilling to put up with someone normally, it'll be much worse in game.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby elminster » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:33 am UTC

This gives a good oversight into distribution of players amongst leagues and divisions in NA: http://i.imgur.com/DPMA22l.png
You'll notice a significant portion of players in division 5 for silver and above. Division 1 in gold at above are all the 2nd most populated ones. The fact that you can't lose rating from 5 will cause rating inflation eventually making everyone a higher rating.
Rather interesting figures.

I've know a few people who do elo boosting. I'm doubtful if many actually pay to get into silver from bronze. Although really division 1 in any case is almost the same as division 5 in the league above (Except to challenger). Getting from division 1 to the next league is a whole different matter. I know my friend tried for months and failed to get into plat, despite being good enough for diamond. He broke through and in a few days he is now plat 3. Kind of his fault duo to playing solo or duo with far less skilled players.
Frankly playing ranked solo queue alone rather than duo is kind of depressing. It's not like you can't win, it's just that progress is a lot slower than it should be. E.g. Rather than winning say 60% of games, you could be winning 80% of games or more as duo of equal skill, which is a huge amount faster when considering LP loss and hidden elo loss. Sure WildTurtle can get to challenger in 112 games or so, but realistically it's going to take closer 200 wins total to get to around where you should be.

The other day I started my first normal game with them picking shen jungle. I first picked Lux (Usually not the best of ideas), naturally I get counter picked by Zed. A quick check showed shen was diamond 1, zed was diamond 3, they had a diamond 4 top laner, Plat 1 adc all premade. So I was preparing the lube from the start. I ended up out laning the zed (and general team play) so hard I was 8/0/7 at around the 35 minute mark. I finished the game 8/2/7, we lost due to team comp and our top laner playing solo most of the game while not actually split pushing effectively, but it was a really good game for the challenge of it.

Similarly, my last game was a low rated premade with friends (3 silver, 1 gold), we still managed to get matched up against 3 plats (My normal rating probably offset theirs a lot). I played lux mid vs their zed again, no comparison really, but every other lane was getting crushed. Bought Mejai to try bait them into focusing me (Reduce lane pressure elsewhere) and had more than half my teams kills with 8/0/4 at some point. I finished 11/1/11 (Tried actively giving kills to adc since Lux isn't a very good end game carry) with 20 stacks but, although I carried super hard and won, it still feels rather empty compared to losing vs the diamonds, yet crushing them in skill wise.
Last edited by elminster on Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:57 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Aaeriele » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:45 am UTC

Lostdreams wrote:I didn't say women don't have the skills, they do. Personal skill and team skill are a totally diffent animal, any top league player can tell you that. This is why women can't support a league right now. If the playerbase is 80/20 and we see the same eight teams playing the last rounds of tournaments then we should have enough women to fill two teams. The problem is that even the top teams suffer from roster changes because of lack of cohesion and then place poorly until they invest enough time to get their groove back. Not to mention if you real-life roll poorly and end up with 4 people that main ADC and no one that mains jungle, you won't even manage one team.

Explain to me then why teams aren't 80/20 when they're formed. There's certainly been plenty of new teams showing up recently.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Adacore » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:58 am UTC

I'd be interested to know what the gender ratio is in the League of Legends player base. I'd be surprised if it's even 80/20, something more like 95/5 seems likely. Even then, though, it does leave the question as to why there are no female players at the top level - there are 16 LCS teams in total, with 5 players each, so 80 players, all of which are male. Add in the teams replaced by the spring promotion tournament and the substitutes/backups that have played and you're at around 100 players. I have trouble believing the female player base is less than 1%, which does raise the question as to why no female players have made it to this level.

I'm only familiar with all the teams in the EU and NA LCS; I know most of the top teams in OGN, LPL and GPL don't have any women, but I'm not 100% sure that there are none at all in these leagues. I'd be surprised if there were, though, since the culture, at least in Korea, seems even less likely to foster competitive female gamers than that in the West.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Metaphysician » Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:04 am UTC

Played a ranked solo queue. Got Karthus, I destroyed everything, had a full six item build (740+ap and 3300 hp.) by 30 minutes and carried my team to victory. It felt good.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Intrigued » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:13 pm UTC

Ugh, zed. I've been playing kassadin a bit recently when I go mid, pretty much him or malzahar. Anyway I picked kass one game like a week ago and got counterpicked with zed, who I had never actually laned against before, not sure how that worked out until now, but it has. Long story short, I learned very quickly what kind of surprising burst he can do at level 2-3. Luckily my jungler knew what was up and was all over mid all game and we ended up rolling over the rest of their team, but if I didn't have a competent jungler, I would've fed to hell and back. Amazing burst + execution passive + takes away kassadin's extra bit of tankiness from passive that he usually gets against APs = you're gonna have a bad time.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Ixtellor » Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:36 pm UTC

I have lost 30 LP the past few days. Never lose my lane, never feed, get kills in the beginning of game.

This game is beyond frustrating.

What is a hero that can 100% carry a team of garbage to victory? I might start playing Morgana and see if I can carry with her. Great farm, good damage, stun, + shield. Maybe trista?
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Intrigued » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:00 pm UTC

I would say it's impossible to be a champ that can 100% carry a bad team, though obviously there's some that are better at it than others. I would say you're basically ruling out any support.

An ADC is honestly pretty tough to play on a team without coordination against one with it. If you have to adc, definitely choose champs like tristana/mf/ezreal who can do some serious damage from relative safety. Champs like graves/vayne more often have to get in the thick of it to do their job, and will be more difficult to play without a strong front line. Draven is kind of an exception, as even though he's got lower range, his absurd dps will probably help in skirmishes.

Top lane is another option, there's champs you can carry from the top with, but honestly I'd probably skip this one too. The thing about top is it takes a while before they tend to be involved in skirmishing as the rest of the team, so it's longer for your team to lose hard and let their lane opponents snowball.

So that leaves you with mid/jungle. I think either of these are great options. Mid can probably carry harder, and relies less on your teammates' coordination than jungle (early jungle ganks, communicating wards). Jungle lets you apply pressure to lanes that need it frequently, and force your teammates to not do as poorly. Mid/jungle either way I'd suggest going with someone who is good at ganking lanes and applying pressure early. Someone like lee sin can be devastating early game with his ganks, and that can cause a major swing in morale, meaning your team plays better, and theirs will play worse. For mid, I'd say TF/kassadin/diana are all great choices for roamy type gankers. I also love malzahar for his ability to instagib almost anyone as long as you're getting a reasonable amount of farm, but he doesn't have the mobility the others have, and you'll again rely more on at least some team coordination.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Lostdreams » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:12 pm UTC

Aaeriele wrote:
Lostdreams wrote:I didn't say women don't have the skills, they do. Personal skill and team skill are a totally diffent animal, any top league player can tell you that. This is why women can't support a league right now. If the playerbase is 80/20 and we see the same eight teams playing the last rounds of tournaments then we should have enough women to fill two teams. The problem is that even the top teams suffer from roster changes because of lack of cohesion and then place poorly until they invest enough time to get their groove back. Not to mention if you real-life roll poorly and end up with 4 people that main ADC and no one that mains jungle, you won't even manage one team.

Explain to me then why teams aren't 80/20 when they're formed. There's certainly been plenty of new teams showing up recently.


That's what I'm getting at. This is where the initiative should be, not at trying to segregate the teams. Am I that bad at trying to explain myself? :(
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Biliboy » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:20 pm UTC

I'd just like to reiterate something someone said earlier in the thread about the ARAM mode. According to the stats I've done about 150 of them since it came out, and I've really noticed an improvement in my teamfight awareness, being able to pick out dangerous targets in the scrum and focus them. On that note, when will people realize that sometimes the tank is the only guy in range, and it's ok to focus him for a bit, just not to waste cooldowns on him.

Also, been getting experience on champs that i just tend to avoid in other modes, like karthus.

I'm still dealing with lag though, and wish i had some magic technical solution to fix it. The best internet I can get in my area is a 3g modem, and on the best days it sits at about 170ms ping most of the game. Thats playable, but it's not stable, and most days it's 230ms and spiky, going to days that are completely unplayable. Needless to say it's a good thing I'm naturally laid back or I'd have gone through a few keyboards in the last couple months.

I've got a signal booster, a plug in antennae, and I've tried a few software solutions that don't seem to do anything. The software seems mostly designed to reduce bandwidth for other programs, but since I turn absolutely everything else off when I play it makes no difference. (side question, does windows 7 have any background internet usage I could disable? seems like more spikes since I got a new OS.)

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Intrigued » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:26 pm UTC

Biliboy wrote:...when will people realize that sometimes the tank is the only guy in range, and it's ok to focus him for a bit, just not to waste cooldowns on him...


Right around the same time they realize that sometimes doing poorly is their own fault, coinciding with hell going below 32F/0C.

Are you on wireless? I know I've had issues with spikes in various windows OS's on wireless because the system thinks it's a great idea to do this over the top check every minute to see if there's better options for wireless connections (great idea - let's completely ruin internet all the time just to see if there is a better internet we can ruin). Also wireless offers a host of other possible issues, I find ruling that out first is always a good step in internet troubleshooting situations.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Biliboy » Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:30 pm UTC

The 3g modem is plugged into a wireless modem, but i'm hardwired into the modem for this computer... i turn the wireless part off for gaming so other computers/tablets in the house don't hog bandwidth.

The router itself claims to have some automatic traffic shaping, but I don't notice a difference between using it and plugging the modem directly into the computer. I've also tried adding a manual rule for the LoL server ip addresses and raising the priority but again, no difference, and with no other traffic shouldn't be anyway.

It could just be lag at the tower end itself, so nothing or little to be done about that, unless someone knows a sprint tech that owes them a favor. The two weeks of rain and storms we've been having don't help either.

The ultimate solution, as far as I can tell, is either move closer to civilization or get the gubment to realize that modern society needs stable broadband much like the 30's needed a stable power grid. (at least, I think we do, even if half or more of the bandwidth would be entertainment related)

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Ixtellor » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:16 pm UTC

Forced to Support, had a BRILLIANT game as Janna, crushed my lane, my ADC was fed.
TOP went 0-11-2 our Jungle, did nothing but Jungle. Another loss.

Why do I play this demon game of internet scum.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Weeks » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:19 pm UTC

I play all my games through wireless (at a close distance, mind) on my laptop and I don't have problems too often, and none that don't have to do with the ISP itself.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Intrigued » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:00 pm UTC

Yeah wireless isn't always a problem but in my own anecdotal troubleshootings it is a very frequent causer of problems.

If you're running nothing else and it's wired and you even shut off wireless to other devices and are still spiky/slow I'd lean towards it being just general slow Internet coming in the door. You could bring it up with your ISP, but not much else you can do about that. It could still be an OS thing but I haven't heard of that yet for wired connections. I would definitely try cycling the modem and plugging directly into it to see if that has any difference. I know my router starts slowing things down every once in a while if not rebooted so I've got it on a schedule. Another option would be to set up an older OS pc (e.g. Win xp) and see if you get the same spikes.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Adacore » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:04 pm UTC

Intrigued wrote:Ugh, zed. I've been playing kassadin a bit recently when I go mid, pretty much him or malzahar. Anyway I picked kass one game like a week ago and got counterpicked with zed, who I had never actually laned against before, not sure how that worked out until now, but it has. Long story short, I learned very quickly what kind of surprising burst he can do at level 2-3. Luckily my jungler knew what was up and was all over mid all game and we ended up rolling over the rest of their team, but if I didn't have a competent jungler, I would've fed to hell and back. Amazing burst + execution passive + takes away kassadin's extra bit of tankiness from passive that he usually gets against APs = you're gonna have a bad time.

I don't really know Kassadin builds. How would an Zhonya's Hourglass work on him? If an enemy Zed is their biggest threat, and he's picking on you, building a Zhonya's should allow you to outright ignore his burst, then use your ult to blink away once the invulnerability ends, if you time it right. I guess once you get the ult leveled you can blink away from the Zed ult as soon as he goes in anyway, so it wouldn't be that useful after 6 (which is probably the earliest you could build it unless you get super-fed either way)?

Ixtellor wrote:What is a hero that can 100% carry a team of garbage to victory? I might start playing Morgana and see if I can carry with her. Great farm, good damage, stun, + shield. Maybe trista?

I love Morgana, but she's not that great at hard-carrying a team that can't do anything themselves. She's a fairly support-y mid, she can apply an absolutely ridiculous amount of CC, farm well against pressure, and get people low, but she's generally not going to be assassinating people or picking up huge multi-kills on her own - she just doesn't have enough pure damage output, even if she's fed. That means that if your team is half-competent, she can carry them by completely disrupting the enemy's teamfight and setting up the entire enemy team for them to kill, but if your team isn't in position for the fight at all, she's pretty useless. Enemy players can either just split up and walk out of her ult or focus her down before the stun goes off, unless she gets absolutely fantastic positioning or has got teammates around to stop them.

Biliboy wrote:I'm still dealing with lag though, and wish i had some magic technical solution to fix it. The best internet I can get in my area is a 3g modem, and on the best days it sits at about 170ms ping most of the game. Thats playable, but it's not stable, and most days it's 230ms and spiky, going to days that are completely unplayable. Needless to say it's a good thing I'm naturally laid back or I'd have gone through a few keyboards in the last couple months.

I suspect that your lag is purely caused by the fact you're connecting through 3G, and that probably adds 100ms or more from the way 3G signals are packeted and compressed/uncompressed, so there's probably not much you can do about it unless/until a fixed connection is available in your area. I might be completely wrong, though.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Intrigued » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:53 pm UTC

Good rundown on why morgana is probably a poor choice while team coordination could be at 0%. You really want someone who is good at bursting folks down and can do clean up really well, if possible.

Yeah, the thing about zed is he's a lane counter. Once you reach teamfight it's not as bad, but he's just going to zone kass pretty hard for the first handful of levels. It gets better at 6, especially if you have equal farm and experience and haven't died yet, but one of these things at least is probably not going to be true against an equally skilled player. I don't know what to think about the zhonya's. I don't know that rushing it is the right move. Rushing seeker's could be a good move, but as kass you reaaally want to get that early ROA, so building specifically to counter your lane, which will be pretty over by the time you build something to counter it, is probably a bad idea. Might make sense to snag a cloth armor or two though, if you can't survive the burst without them. If their team is real ad heavy, it might be worth rushing the zhonya's though, but you're going to be hurting on mana and health for a while.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Adacore » Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:25 am UTC

Yeah, that makes sense with Kass. The only time I've really played him was literally in my first week playing the game, so I have no idea how he builds. I did enjoy him though.

I need to start playing again. I'd forgotten how much fun it was to play Morgana, flash-ult into the middle of the enemy team, and watch them all panic and scatter while my team obliterates them. If you get it right (and are lucky) you get a solid 2-3 seconds of the enemies doing zero damage while your whole team puts out their entire burst uninterrupted. At higher skill levels the opponents tend to panic less, though, so it becomes less effective, I think, although this is partly compensated by your team being more skilled and better able to capitalise on the opportunity.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Metaphysician » Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:07 am UTC

I find the most important thing to keep in mind when you've been counter picked in lane is that the most important thing is to not feed. Granted I play Karthus, Lux, and Twisted Fate in mid, the reason I was always attracted to those champions is that it's very easy to push your lane out a little, and go gank somewhere else, especially after level six. They're all also difficult to counterpick. Leblanc and Fizz though both really crush Karthus, and when I lane against one of those, I know that if I don't feed I will be better in teamfights so I just focus on getting what farm I can, and trying to gank other lanes where possible.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Weeks » Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:22 am UTC

Kassadin in Dominion 100% carries everything. It's pretty hard to lose with him if you know what you are doing. This has been an issue for about 2 years.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Ixtellor » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:28 am UTC

Metaphysician wrote:I find the most important thing to keep in mind when you've been counter picked in lane is that the most important thing is to not feed. .


I only play vs silver and bronzes, and counter picking means nothing. Skill is the only thing that wins at this level.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Kag » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:34 am UTC

Ixtellor wrote:What is a hero that can 100% carry a team of garbage to victory? I might start playing Morgana and see if I can carry with her. Great farm, good damage, stun, + shield. Maybe trista?


You will not be able to carry your team reliably unless you are actually a lot better than everyone else. Two problems with that. One, matchmaking doesn't do nothing, you know. Two, blaming your team like that is pretty strongly correlated with being kind of clueless, so I wouldn't hold my breath.

Sometimes it really cannot be salvaged, but usually "I was doing good and then my team fed" just means you were too concerned with your own shit to help them.

That said, if Hecarim isn't banned...
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Re: League of Legends

Postby elminster » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:00 am UTC

Ixtellor, I took a look at your lolking, there's quite a few of problems really.
-As with most cases, CS score is bad. It's extremely important to get as much CS as you can. 11 CS gives you the around same amount as a kill and that's FAR easier and less risky to get than a kill.
-Kass is unreliable as a solo queue carry and is a counter pick, not a main pick.
-Don't build spell vamp on kass. You're job is to nuke people, not slowly kill them and regen in between.
-Don't take barrier on kass. Ignite or teleport in almost all cases. Teleport has more carry potential.
-Similarly, if you're not doing it already, you should take teleport on Ryze mid. The kill potential lost mid is gained back and more than doubled by being able to win in other lanes. Ryze in general is too predictable to die to easily.
-Shaco requires too much skill to carry compared to other options. He's a high skill cap champ.
-Rune pages are kinda funky. Not one page has armor yellow, which is the best option in more cases than any other rune.
-Take exhaust or ignite on supports, mostly exhaust though. Heal just doesn't give as much.

For jungling, Nunu is the best option at the moment. See here for an idea why.
Also, although Janna is a great support, you need to learn supports that make the plays to win the game. Blitz, Thresh, Zyra (Zyra has added bonus of basically building as pure AP later game) are all far better options for carrying as support. The other supports all have their place, but really it's dependant on skill.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Intrigued » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:14 am UTC

Some excellent points here, I just wanted to follow up on some of them quick and provide some possible counterpoints.

First, counterpicking DOES matter at lower levels. It's not quite as important, but as long as you understand the counterpick and know the champ well enough, counterpicking gives you an extreme advantage. On the other hand, it's less likely that others will understand the concept well, and being counterpicked hard isn't as harsh as at higher levels.

@Kag - excellent point on that correlation. While teams are frequently bad, and moreso at lower levels, blaming them for your defeat is counterproductive. The best thing you can do is try to figure out what you could've done better, all the way from champ select to the end of the game. If you think there's nothing you could've done better, to increase your chances of victory, you're wrong.

@Elminster - the point gets driven hard almost anytime someone talks about wanting to get better, and that's for a good reason, so CS CS CS. It's an enormous part of the game that doesn't have an immediately noticeable boost, but if you get a BF sword a couple minutes earlier than your opponent because you're csing well (or a couple minutes later) you're going to notice a huge difference.

I'm interested to your thoughts on why kass is a "counter pick, not a main pick". I agree he's extremely strong as a counterpick to some champs, but I also think he can be pretty viable if counterpicked, as he is extremely roamy as soon as he hits 6, so he doesn't totally rely on winning his lane hard. What are champs you would consider a "main pick"? I agree on your summoner/masteries recommendations. Barrier doesn't work on kass, he's a burster who wants that extra push to secure a kill. Barrier is better on sustained dps (specifically many adcs when they wouldn't rather take cleanse vs hard cc or ignite for early game dominance), since it allows you to survive a burst and then apply all their sustain to kill the burster before all their CDs have reset. It's also great on adcs in lane both as a defensive tool to beat out "all in"s, in the same way as above, and to help escape any ganks that might have gone unwarded.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby elminster » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:29 pm UTC

Kass can be effectively counter picked/played to the point that he becomes near useless till late game.
E.g. You get out harassed, out scaled, out farmed, and out pushed by Zed. You'll barely have any CS in comparison before trying to roam and will immediately lose your tower when you do. In doing so, you'll have to wait till around the 35min mark before you even get close to out scaling zed.
Furthermore, junglers camping kass pre-6 is pretty common since he's got no escape, no stuns/snares, barely any range. Kass is also reasonably blue dependant early on, allowing junglers to have greater impact by stealing theirs.

Really the mid lane pick should often be the last pick anyway (Or at least after theirs), but you'll never manage to get bronze/silver players to cooperate. Support/ADC/jungler aren't really about counterpicking hard, top and mid both can get counter picked.

The last time a Kass tried to counter pick our 5 man team (iirc their team averaged plat rating with 2 diamonds), I called for bot to swap to mid and pretty much won because of it. Kass became useless being unable to roam with a tower down at 6mins.

Although really a lot of this is dependant on skill. You can get to gold easily with heimer if you play him well enough. You might be bad with TF and not even get to gold. There's a difference between saying "play X champ and win easily" compared to "learn X champ and win up to diamond". TF is definitely not the easiest champ but, if mastered, can definitely get you into diamond with a high win %.
As mentioned, CSing is the simplest and fastest way to improve rating. You can be bad tactically, but play hypercarries and just CS well enough... you'll win very often. Check out WildTurtle's smurf and his CS to see what it really takes to be a triple challenger: http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/42060215#ranked-stats
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Adacore » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:26 pm UTC

Yeah, if you watch the top ADC players stream they get annoyed if they miss a single minion kill. Sometimes it's worth giving up one or two last hits if it allows you to get a lot of harass down to force the enemy to miss more than that, but normally you want to be getting every single CS, unless that involves really overextending in lane.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Ixtellor » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:18 am UTC

elminster wrote:Ixtellor, I took a look at your lolking, there's quite a few of problems really.
-As with most cases, CS score is bad. It's extremely important to get as much CS as you can. 11 CS gives you the around same amount as a kill and that's FAR easier and less risky to get than a kill..


I am usually support so low CS. When I mid Kass, I have to spend most of the game trying to save top or bottom.
And yes, his CC is a little low before level 6 because he is melee, but I still have the same or better CC as my opponent.
-Kass is unreliable as a solo queue carry and is a counter pick, not a main pick.


I have NEVER lost my lane as Kassadin in bronze. Can I carry the entire team... no -- too squishy.

-Don't build spell vamp on kass. You're job is to nuke people, not slowly kill them and regen in between.

I have stopped getting spell vamp the past several games, but that's not the cause of my team losing. It was just an item I was throwing in WAY after my 3 big expensive items + boots.

-Don't take barrier on kass. Ignite or teleport in almost all cases. Teleport has more carry potential.


I agree, I need to get Ignite. But Getting Barrier has allowed me to jump on FED ADC's and get out alive. Every game I have to play against a 15-0 hero that fed all game on my teamates.

-Rune pages are kinda funky. Not one page has armor yellow, which is the best option in more cases than any other rune.
-

I spent all my rune money AGES ago when I had no idea what I was doing, been slowing improving it, But GOOD advice, that will be my next purchase.

Take exhaust or ignite on supports, mostly exhaust though. Heal just doesn't give as much.


I have been trying the heal because of the support skill +hp/5 if you have it. Was trying it out to help my ADC.

Also, although Janna is a great support, you need to learn supports that make the plays to win the game.


I would love for someone to watch me play Janna and tell me it is not brilliant, or at least High Silver level play.

Blitz, Thresh, Zyra (Zyra has added bonus of basically building as pure AP later game) are all far better options for carrying as support. The other supports all have their place, but really it's dependant on skill


Blitz are Thresh are perma ban in Bronze. I don't own Zyra and have never played her.

I just played a game where everyone on my team was bronze 3 or lower. Our Top and Jungle went a combined 3-21 with most of those deaths going to a Mid Mordakiser. I played Janna and made my ADC our best hero who started out like 4-0, then I switched to helping our feeding GARBAGE mid, and helped him farm 8 kills before game ended.

Mid was Talon and he said "Mid or Feed" to start the game.

LoLKing is very useful, but it doesnt' tell the whole story.

I would love to watch a platinum player get a team of 3-30 and turn it into a win.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Kag » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:11 am UTC

Ixtellor wrote:I would love for someone to watch me play Janna and tell me it is not brilliant, or at least High Silver level play.
Well yeah, if you knew what other players did to be better than you, you could just do those things. For example, buy a lot more wards. With the amount you are placing, it is impossible that you're doing a good job of warding. Full stop.

It's also a good idea to ward when you play any other role, too.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Weeks » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:35 am UTC

"High Silver" is not a standard you should be aspiring to...
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