League of Legends

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Chaoszerom
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Chaoszerom » Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:19 pm UTC

I've just started playing a week or two ago, and I get the feeling I'm getting sucked in a bit (but 'tis enjoyable nonetheless). Generally, I play Lux mid, but mostly bot games (tried PvP today, got slaughtered on my own, only did decently when playing with a mate's smurf). I've got a decent idea of the main game flow (get last hits, try to only push forwards only when you're pretty much guaranteed a kill, stay on own side of the map unless with another player), but I'm still making mistakes and messing things up. It seems in later games I function more as a support, and I can't do more than 600-800 damage (estimate) or so when spamming spells, which really doesn't help against tanky Leonas and whatnot. Any suggestions, and/or general strategy tips?

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Ixtellor » Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:42 pm UTC

Kag wrote:
Ixtellor wrote:Had a game where I started 8-0-4, took 4 towers, and we lost because some epically bad carries.


If you got that fed and couldn't figure out how to carry you legitimately earned the loss.


I believe my team was 13-35 when I had that stat.

So while I was 8-0 I was going up against an 11-0 Lucian and their mid which was like 10-2.

I have seen lots of trick2g vids now, and he loses games on horrific teams also. He doesn't share your view that it had to be his fault. Because if the best volibear player in the world can't always carry bad teams....
On a team game, a single player can only do so much.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Yakk » Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:50 pm UTC

Tanks are tanks. If you can burst down a tank, it is either the start of the game and your character had crazy base burst, or you should have won the game 5 m9nutes ago and you are trolling or failing to close the deal.

AP do aoe to drop entire teams to lower hp, range poke to gain advantage in next fight, burst down squshies before they do the same to you, and apply crowd control.

In lane work out how much you can burst down. Damage vs (HP*(100+MR)/100). Wittle down foes until they hit that point. And then melt them.

Tanks are killed by starting off wounded, being burst down by a team, being kited and finished off, or being crowd controlled ignored their entire team killed first then left there to die as there are now 3-4 of you and one-two tanks. Then they run and/or die.
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Kag » Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:17 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:
Kag wrote:
Ixtellor wrote:Had a game where I started 8-0-4, took 4 towers, and we lost because some epically bad carries.


If you got that fed and couldn't figure out how to carry you legitimately earned the loss.


I believe my team was 13-35 when I had that stat.

So while I was 8-0 I was going up against an 11-0 Lucian and their mid which was like 10-2.

I have seen lots of trick2g vids now, and he loses games on horrific teams also. He doesn't share your view that it had to be his fault. Because if the best volibear player in the world can't always carry bad teams....
On a team game, a single player can only do so much.


I mean yeah, you can't win every game, but "I couldn't do anything, bad team" is a bullshit attitude that causes you to lose games. You'll do a lot better once you realize that the reason those people are in your games is that you are approximately as good as they are. The same matchmaking algorithm puts people on the enemy team, and they make the same kinds of mistakes. If you're really better, you should win more.

Plus it's really suspicious that you had almost all of your team's kills but didn't have a meaningful impact on two lanes that ended up feeding.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Yakk » Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:11 pm UTC

Some people think that telling lies to yourself makes you a better person by motivating yourself to do better.

Others disagree.
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

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Re: League of Legends

Postby cemper93 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:17 pm UTC

Since I now mostly play DotA, I actually just wanted here to come and flame all of you damn scrubs, but now that I'm here, I see you are so scrubby and leagueish you're not even worth my superior attention.

Anyway. I recently got back into this game after a few months because a few friends of mine play it, and asked me to play it with them. I went through my placement matches for S4 (I have never played ranked before) and got placed Bronze I after going 6-4, which I guess is pretty okay considering I had a leaver in my team during one of the games and apparently everybody got placed rather low this season. (And besides, I suck at League.)

- Humm, not much more to add, I guess. Oh wait, actually I have a question. Since you can't buy oracles anymore, what is the suggested strategy when playing ADC in the trench and you are against Kha, Rengar or other invisible bursty assassins? I find it very hard to avoid getting killed without the invis dedection since my support never buys vision wards (they're visible now, how useless is that!) and in the trench "I can't see it" means "It doesn't exist and I therefore don't need to peel it away from my carry". I just get warding trinket + upgrade to place vision ward, but a ward every 120 seconds doesn't help much unless you are very good at anticipating in advance where a teamfight is going to happen.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Ixtellor » Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:59 pm UTC

Kag wrote:I mean yeah, you can't win every game, but "I couldn't do anything, bad team" is a bullshit attitude that causes you to lose games.


Lucky I don't have that attitude. But the reality is sometimes the other team stomps your team.
There are Diamonds with losses in Bronze, sometimes you just can't carry.

After that particular loss, I thought about what I could have done, and I think I should have just forced the one decent lane all the way to the inhibs. This would have forced the other team to come defend or lose it, thus allowing my team of scrubs to farm and get towers.

You'll do a lot better once you realize that the reason those people are in your games is that you are approximately as good as they are. The same matchmaking algorithm puts people on the enemy team, and they make the same kinds of mistakes.


Everyone has about the same MMR. But what is different is that some of us get more LP for wins and lose less for losses. The Matchmaker is still awarding me almost twice as much for wins than losses. So even if I go .500 I will continue to easily climb.
I don't want to go .500 and I figure I'm due for a lucky streak, since the averages eventually have to shift after a lot of bad luck games.

A lot of the people I am paired with at the 1200 MMR range, are headed down or stuck. While I will continue to climb.

If you're really better, you should win more.


All but Diamond are going to end up around .500

I know I am going to make gold this season, and I will shoot for platinum. I now have 30+ duo partners and lots of them are gold platinum who friend'ed me because they were impressed by my play.

Plus it's really suspicious that you had almost all of your team's kills but didn't have a meaningful impact on two lanes that ended up feeding.


A jungler can't be in all 3 lanes. Plus there are lots of bottoms that push lane, don't ward, and feed in Silver. Other than camp the lane, not much you can do.

I am also of the mind, its better to let FAIL lanes just fail, and try to focus in winning the other lanes.

My id is Ixtellor ---- lolking me . I have nothing to hide.

Here is BIG question, Not really sure about the answer:

If your top lane and winning the CS and kill game, but the lane is basically frozen (farm lane) -- and your team is getting stomped. Should you go help them win their lane knowing your lane will lose its towers and get pushed HARD, or stay and prevent your lane from losing its objectives.

I haven't solved this riddle. I have good personal games top, where I go to help mid or jungler, and watch enemy top laner free farm and get multiple towers.

A situation where the enemy is up soo much gold, they can effectively split push and still win 4v5's.

Kag, remind us what your ID is, can't wait to see your solo Q game stats.

Eliminster, friend me on NA, play a game, and give advice.

cemper93 wrote:Since I now mostly play DotA, I actually just wanted here to come and flame all of you damn scrubs, but now that I'm here, I see you are so scrubby and leagueish you're not even worth my superior attention.


I was an OLD school Dota player. When Manny suicide tower was one of the big strats.
League offers more micro-rewards and doesn't have the stupid new washed out graphics of blues and browns.

cemper93 wrote:Since you can't buy oracles anymore, what is the suggested strategy when playing ADC in the trench and you are against Kha, Rengar or other invisible bursty assassins?


Buy pinks and keep keep them in river/tribush.
Some pro teams are double pinking now(same bush), forcing 10 hits to remove them, which allows you time to react and engage.

I say this in team chat before games if enemy has an Eve or Rengar, that basically there is no point in normal wards, you really need pinks from the start.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby cemper93 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:00 pm UTC

ixquick wrote:League offers more micro-rewards and doesn't have the stupid new washed out graphics of blues and browns.

Hm, I actually prefer Dota's micro-rewards since you feel them more directly (you do occasionally get cosmetic item drops, like, you know, hats - it's a Valve game, after all). You can wear them and feel classy the next game. I also don't think the graphics are too washed out, but I guess that comes down to personal preference. What I definitely prefer about Dota's graphics and sounds, though, is that whenever you do something - anything - the game rewards you by making awesome sounds and splashy graphic effects that tell you that SOMETHING AMAZING HAPPENED, even if you just last-hitted a creep. For another example, when you activate Sven's War Cry, you get a HUGE ROARING SOUND and LIGHTNING EFFECTS EVERYWHERE. And some additional armor for a few seconds. It has that too.

ixquick wrote:Buy pinks and keep keep them in river/tribush.
Some pro teams are double pinking now(same bush), forcing 10 hits to remove them, which allows you time to react and engage.

That's clever, but I have trouble getting my support to buy even one pink, let alone two :(

So I should just get pinks and keep the locations where I think teamfights are going to happen warded, ahead of time? I ask specifically because I got wrecked several times by Kha, who just goes invis, leaps, and then I'm a dead carry before the fight even started. I guess I should just get used to running away from him and trying to kite, but I kind of forgot how that works because I played too much Dota, where you simply can't autoattack while running away due to turn rates.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Intrigued » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:07 pm UTC

If you see the kha invis you can certainly just drop a pink on yourself or a little forward in his path. If not, then you couldn't see the kha in the first place and maybe shouldn't have engaged. If he's fed and your team isn't protecting you, then there's not a ton you can do. Depends on which carry you are too, trist, for example has a lot of disengage and if you're quick enough you should hopefully be able to get yourself out of dodge long enough for your teams' slow reactions to kick in, especially if you can drop a pink on yourself too. Again, if he's fed and rolls his face across the keyboard he may kill you before you can react, so positioning pre-battle is more important than anything.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby elminster » Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:58 pm UTC

I think too many have the mentality that they need to try make others play differently in order to win.
Honestly, just don't expect other people to play well. If they are doing well, then just don't feed so they can carry. If you're doing well, make sure you're using that in order to win, not just get more kills.

Part the reason I say roaming mids are so strong is because you help avoid a situation where you're 6/0 and an enemy in another lane is 10/0. Maybe all top lane needed was 1 gank and it would change the outcome from 0/4 to 4/0, it would stop him raging and for the cost of some CS, you may have just made your team 30% stronger. Either you make the plays to stop the enemy snowballing other lanes, or you snowball harder yourself. If you can't do either, you lose.
If a lane is feeding, push towers hard elsewhere, then rotate with many people to the losing lane. Even a 8/0 top laner can't stop mid, jungle and support ganking top together. If you can't gank them, just push towers and get drags/etc. Being 100/0 sitting in the same lane farming and killing the same person is utterly useless in comparison to taking towers.

In general, if you're a top laner, roaming mid/bot or teleporting is a better option than staying in lane at lower ratings. Although an even better option is to pick a snowball champ and snowball as hard as possible vs them, getting enough damage to roam mid, kill them and instantly take tower. Although split pushing works, but literally almost everyone up to about diamond 3 doesn't understand how best to use it. Conversely, most people up to diamond don't know how to counter it properly. If that super fed top laner is pushing, 5 man push another lane and he can't possibly out push you, hard-engage asap if they try defend (Vi, Leona is exceptionally good to counter split pushers here).

Also, KDA doesn't win games. My 66.7% win rate with Kayle last season only has a KDA of 4.9/4/7.7 in 147 Kayle games, which is bad, but I've made the plays which were required to win. 80% w/ Kayle so far this season. Note: Most diamond 1's sit around 54-59% win rate with their main champs after a while.
Having played solo queue recently Kayle has become a top ban in the last few days in diamond, probably due to LCS. Sad times. As I predicted (Even before masteries were changed), people have started figuring out that the >21 offence mastery build is super strong.

Chaoszerom, I'd advise against playing Lux. She's a bit weak at the moment and essentially outclassed in almost every aspect by Ziggs, who's technically the strongest solo queue champ at the moment.
As much as I like playing Lux (I've played several hundred games with her) she's mediocre at best at the moment.
If you do want to play her though, I'd suggest really focusing on CSing well and harassing where possible between CSing. Try optimize damage combo with autoattacks for every passive proc. E.g. Q, E, Attack, Detonate E, Attack. Also, try aim skillshots at locations where enemy will have to move to in order to get a CS, this will possibly prevent them from csing, get you free damage and scare them into not CSing the next time. Standard build is Chalice -> Athenes -> Sorc boots -> Deathcap -> Void staff. It's a good idea to ward quite a bit with Lux since she's easily gankable, but relatively safe if you see the gank coming. If you see a fight going on in other lanes, try walk down the river (Making sure you're not going to get caught by jungler/mid) and use ult to help kill enemies or pick them off.

Vs KhaZix, best to have a team comp to deal with it (Lulu, Kayle, Janna are all good counters), use locket, good positioning, have instant CC nearby high priority targets, take exhaust where applicable, ward to keep an eye on his movements.

Ixtellor I've added you on my NA account (elmins). I won't be logged on NA most of the time though. If you wanted to add on EUW: elmins (main), elminz (smurf).
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Ixtellor » Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:00 pm UTC

cemper93 wrote:I ask specifically because I got wrecked several times by Kha, who just goes invis, leaps, and then I'm a dead carry before the fight even started. I guess I should just get used to running away from him and trying to kite, but I kind of forgot how that works because I played too much Dota, where you simply can't autoattack while running away due to turn rates.


But DOTA has lothars and blink daggers. Also, I feel like I recall kiting with Dwarven sniper, but I may be wrong.

1) Don't push the lane --- this is same as Dota.
2) If your lane does get pushed you HAVE to ward with pinks. If the support wont buy them, then you have to. You should actually be more used to buying non-ideal items because of dota.
Recall scrolls, I remember always buying wards in Dota --- far more than I did in LOL, or things like Black King Bar because you didn't want to rely on other protecting you.
(Suppports in Dota are actually less supportive -- I only really remember buying a mechinism when I was a 'support') Point being you should be used to looking out for yourself and not relying on the support. So, yes buy the wards yourself. That 100g investment will save you a lot more than that.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Intrigued » Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:34 pm UTC

While I agree with generally what you're saying Elminster, the situation was specifically that he was an adc getting trounced by a Khazix in team fights. Ganking other lanes is usually not much of an option as adc until well into the game and if he was an adc with no natural disengage (not recommended without a strong team built to support it) he very well could have been sol without a team that was on the ball.

Have they nerfed lux? Or buffed others? I haven't played much since last season or kept on top of it but I always thought she was nasty and she made up a strong bulk of my ranked games S3 for a 67% win rate up to p1.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby cemper93 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:37 pm UTC

Intrigued: Yes, I guess I'll have to try and get better positioning. Better miss out on a few seconds of autoattacks during a fight than miss out on a minute of gametime because you got pwnd, i guess.

Ixtellor: I was asking more about late-game teamfights. I do keep the river and tribush warded, I'm not that bad.
And if you didn't buy wards/dust/smoke as support in Dota, then it's probably actually been a few years :) Also, BKB is not an item you get because you don't trust your team to protect you - it's an item you get when you know the enemy team has strong disables you can't be protected from and you need to be on the frontline. Remember that many carries in Dota are melee (Antimage, Phantom Assassin, Naix), short-ranged (Mirana, Gyro) or do need to be close to the enemy to get their ultimates off (Luna). Supporting in Dota is less about peeling, it's more about giving the carry space to farm and assisting in teamfights by disabling key enemies. I still get your point, though :D
EDIT: Though we're kind of derailing the thread at this point.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Adacore » Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:51 pm UTC

Chaoszerom wrote:I've just started playing a week or two ago, and I get the feeling I'm getting sucked in a bit (but 'tis enjoyable nonetheless). Generally, I play Lux mid, but mostly bot games (tried PvP today, got slaughtered on my own, only did decently when playing with a mate's smurf). I've got a decent idea of the main game flow (get last hits, try to only push forwards only when you're pretty much guaranteed a kill, stay on own side of the map unless with another player), but I'm still making mistakes and messing things up. It seems in later games I function more as a support, and I can't do more than 600-800 damage (estimate) or so when spamming spells, which really doesn't help against tanky Leonas and whatnot. Any suggestions, and/or general strategy tips?

I don't know if this is relevant to you, because I don't know how well you're CS'ing, and I've not played in ages so I don't know if the S4 changes mean it's changed in general. But... I find that because most AP mids rely on spells to CS, and the damage from spells is obviously very item dependent (based on AP), there's a critical rate at which you need to CS (or otherwise gain gold) and get items in order for your standard combo of spells + attacks to be able to easily clear a wave. For Lux, you could kill minions easily with Lucent Singularity and autoattacks (with Illumination procs), but only if you'd been keeping your AP high enough to do enough damage with the singularity.

This is only really a problem for beginners / low-level players, because once you start last-hitting reasonably well, and have all your runes and masteries up, you'll be able to do enough damage in basically every game you play, I just remember it being an issue when I was starting out.

Lux doesn't have amazing burst unless she gets a little bit fed, though - if she does, then any time a snare hits on a squishy she should be one-shotting them with final spark, but if she's not at that point then she feels relatively weak. This is actually maybe an issue with playing bot games, because I don't know what kind of team compositions and itemization choices you're facing. If the entire enemy team is going for bruisers/tanks (or building health/MR on the carries) then Lux isn't going to do much other than support, but the rest of your team shouldn't have too much trouble.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Kag » Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:00 am UTC

Ixtellor wrote:Everyone has about the same MMR. But what is different is that some of us get more LP for wins and lose less for losses. The Matchmaker is still awarding me almost twice as much for wins than losses. So even if I go .500 I will continue to easily climb.
As it happens, the amount of LP you get is actually determined by your MMR.

All but Diamond are going to end up around .500
Assuming your skill is static, yes, but what I meant was that if you actually play better than the people you're matched with, you'll have a higher than 50% win rate.

A jungler can't be in all 3 lanes. Plus there are lots of bottoms that push lane, don't ward, and feed in Silver. Other than camp the lane, not much you can do.
If you identify an obvious high-value target for the enemy jungler, the first thing you should think of doing is putting down a ward. Then, you don't even need to camp to ruin his party. If your mid laner is pushing, you can easily coordinate a four-man gank. Also, there is at least one gank route that explicitly benefits from a pushed lane, so that helps.

I am also of the mind, its better to let FAIL lanes just fail, and try to focus in winning the other lanes.
This works better if you get fewer of the kills, so the person you're helping can snowball without you. Also, it kind of depends. Shutdown gold can very easily put someone back into the game, and even if it doesn't, stopping an enemy's momentum can be a big deal. You also need to consider very seriously how hard your winning lane can snowball.

If your top lane and winning the CS and kill game, but the lane is basically frozen (farm lane) -- and your team is getting stomped. Should you go help them win their lane knowing your lane will lose its towers and get pushed HARD, or stay and prevent your lane from losing its objectives.
The short answer is that your lane should probably not be frozen if you have that kind of lead. BUT, youur jungler can help you reduce the impact of leaving by ganking and helping you shove, or just covering while you're gone. If you REALLY have to choose, then it's still situational, but roaming will be better more often.

Oh right, and my profile is here. You can even use that link to command-line spectate. Although that's been broken for me lately.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Biliboy » Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:33 am UTC

Just played my third placement match a few minutes ago, and it was satisfying. I put some thought into volibear after seeing ixtellor talk about him, and bought him to jungle with, and have generally been pleased. He can't solo-win every game by any means, but plays quite well in that tanky yet damaging niche that makes a good jungler (imo).

I decided on the spur of the moment not to smite my first blue, like I usually do (had a very good leash), and used smite on wolves. Smite was up a few seconds into the red fight, and smite/bite finished red off just in time for the enemy j4 to get there to try to steal it. I pinged, singed came down from top to help, we knocked him very low and he ran to his fizz in mid for help. However, my Malz got the kill on j4, and a few seconds later on fizz, at level 3.

Long story short, I think if I'd smited blue, took a few extra seconds longer on wolves, then j4 might have caught me at red and stolen it or maybe killed me (maybe not, I fight buff golems in the bush, but who knows) sometimes those extra seconds really matter.

Also a question, as jungler, if you're halfway through a camp and you see a threat to a tower nearby, is it always a good idea to drop the camp and rush to help? I want to think yes, but I also know that if I do that every time then I'll get pretty behind in farm, not to mention buff respawns get delayed.

Side note to Ixtellor, I think I saw you talking about what boots to go for with voli earlier in the thread, and my personal preference is mobility boots. My reasoning goes that once in the scrum normal boot speed and q is fine for voli, since you'll also be in roar range, however getting to the fight is the most important thing, and mobility does that.

What runes are you using for him? I went with attack speed+armor+mr/lvl, and ad quints (i'm saving up ip for move speed quints)

*edit* Oh here's something interesting, a site that compares your warding percentage with others.... apparently as a support I ward more than 96% of supports (in the seven games the site sees, of which one was Lulu and one was Leona I believe) at 32 wards per game.

http://wardscore.loltools.net/?name=bil ... &region=na

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Ixtellor » Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:37 pm UTC

Kag wrote:If you identify an obvious high-value target for the enemy jungler, the first thing you should think of doing is putting down a ward.


Thanks for your thoughtful responses Kag.
That is a good idea, ward the lane for them. I am usually doing great gold wise, so that is something I can do.

This works better if you get fewer of the kills, so the person you're helping can snowball without you.


I try very hard to get carries kills, but sometimes they refuse to except the gift.
Also, Im talking about the types of carries that get 100 CS in a 40 min game. The type who play frontline and don't know what position is.

Oh right, and my profile is here. You can even use that link to command-line spectate. Although that's been broken for me lately.


Impressive that you have so many wins as a solo q support. Are you last pick a lot, or just choosing support role.

Biliboy wrote:I decided on the spur of the moment not to smite my first blue, like I usually do (had a very good leash), and used smite on wolves. Smite was up a few secon


I dont' see an advantage to that. I always start bottom buff first, smite it, then head to other buff and clear the camp next to it, skipping either wolves or wraiths depending on where I started, then smite is up just in time for the next buff.

Also, always expect J4 to invade. Same goes for Udr and a few others. Champs like Amu will almost never invade because they are weak to start.
Biliboy wrote:Side note to Ixtellor, I think I saw you talking about what boots to go for with voli earlier in the thread, and my personal preference is mobility boots. My reasoning goes that once in the scrum normal boot speed and q is fine for voli, since you'll also be in roar range, however getting to the fight is the most important thing, and mobility does that.


I almost automatically get Ninja Tabai now with homeguard now. I only get Merc treads if the enemy is heavy AP. I only get mobility or swift if we are stomping them. Ninja Tabai are just too good, and you have the Golem for the tenacity. Late game, you will have to engage.
(Blink + Toss is how I start the big fights)

I run all AS reds, and Move speed quints, flat armor and I think I am currently using flat MR blues.
I sometimes go support volibear (yes it works in silver) and I use +gold quints.

I checked that AWESOME ward score thing.
I am a 58% warder, but I am like a 76% jungler and marksmen.
Oddly.... I was a 24% support. I think its due to only 1 game as support where we got CRUSHED. If its over multiple seasons then ... I don't get it because I tend to ward a lot, season 3 I spent majority of my gold on pinks, oracles, and greens _+ sightstone.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Biliboy » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:19 am UTC

I believe the wardscore site only checks the summoner's rift games in your match history, as I had 3 aram games, and 7 normal/ranked games when i checked the site, and it said 7 games checked. Still a decent, non-objective check on your warding habits. Obviously wards in and of themselves don't win games, but not having them can sure cost you, even if they are misplaced from 'optimum'.

On that, I've pretty much stopped putting a ward on the dragon cave, rather warding the river bush and either tribush/blue entrance depending on my side. I figure that a dragon ward will only catch dragon attempts after they've begun, or perhaps a mid laner walking down river, and the other two spots will catch roamers much better, and if you see the adc+jungle heading into the fog near dragon you can be pretty sure what they are up to. Also the dragon cave entrance is pretty much a guaranteed place for the jungler to clear for wards, so if you really need sight on the dragon, drop it in the back of the cave, or closer to blue entrance to avoid the clear.

I'm torn on what free vision item to take on supports now. Yesterday I had a game where I bought without thinking, and got the new clairvoyance item. I held on to it and used it, and later in the game it gave my lux the vision to steal a blue with her ult, in a spot I would have been afraid to go drop a ward. I might start taking it on purpose, just for those jungle fights where face checking a bush, even to drop a ward in it, could be too dangerous. (of course taking the free pink ward for akali/twitch/rengar matches.... man stupid stealth buff)

Had an odd match yesterday, we had a melee/ad/tanky heavy team in champ select, so I went annie support, so we'd have some ap that'd scale into end game. Come game start, I buy support items (have masteries and exhaust), and our malphite goes, 'oh, I thought i was top', and wanders down bot lane to support while our garen goes top. So there I am, mid lane vs a vayne without the proper preparation. The vayne was very good mechanically, getting lots of poke off on me but not getting any kills, but at least twice the cs. Did i mention that it was my first time mid for... at least a year? I ended up building sort of an off-tank/supporty build, and dropping tibbers during mf's ult, and we managed to squeak out a win. I guess the lesson is, even if you know you can't win your lane, you can be sure to not lose it, and catch up later. Having a vayne with no kills is much better mid/late than a vayne with 2-3.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby elminster » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:38 am UTC

Wow, just had an epic game.
My duo (top laner) dc's when he was level 9, about was out of the game for ~26mins. We were still pulling ahead as 4v5, but just couldn't deal with splitpush . He reconnects we proceed to win at the 42min mark, despite being 4v5 for most of the game (He only had sunfire, botrk, end ninja tabi finished, when everyone else had full builds at the end). Enemy team had S3 rating average of D1 (rene, lee, ez, ori, leona), we had a challenger and a D1, D4 and my duo ~D3. Oddly, with the soft reset, we've seen about 8 challengers (mostly 5v5 rather than soloq) so far, even though we've not hit diamond yet (Last season, there was only a few games which averaged D1, now it's mostly that.), but we're 1 win away from diamond promo (Even if we lose 1, should still be 1 win away).

Shortly after, almost carried one game as Kayle (Usual bot/top failing too hard), then carried a game which was almost a certain loss up to late game, which lasted 53 minutes. Hands were pouring with sweat after how tense that was.

edit, Apparently that wardscore says I ward more than 96% of recorded people.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Ixtellor » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:20 pm UTC

elminster wrote:Wow, just had an epic game.


Thats what makes all the trolls and ragers worth it. When you come together and win when you should have lost.

edit, Apparently that wardscore says I ward more than 96% of recorded people.


While their is no doubt that you, being diamond, are going to be a great warder, I was thinking that average game length is going to skew that website.

Every high level game I have ever watched lasted 35+ mins with many deep in the 40's.

I think if they did average wards per minute it would be a better indication.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Yakk » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:59 pm UTC

Integral average of the percentile of your warding at a given second of the game against other games.

If only they exported "when you do something" instead of just "sum of things you did" in the LoL stats. I miss SC2's historical data: there is little reason we cannot have a graph of X over time.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Weeks » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:31 pm UTC

That would be an awesome feature.

I'd love a "Seconds of CC given/taken" stat or similar too. I think kassad.in had something like that?
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Re: League of Legends

Postby elminster » Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:37 pm UTC

Weeks wrote:That would be an awesome feature.

I'd love a "Seconds of CC given/taken" stat or similar too. I think kassad.in had something like that?
Someone just made this awesome post on reddit with stats for quite a few champs.
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1wqdh2/average_total_damage_dealt_per_champion/
Damage totals are obviously going to be skewed a little towards laning harassers (Teemo). Some are rather expected and some are pretty unexpected, like thresh being so low down on average total CC time, which is probably caused by popularity.

I wonder how easy it is to get an developer API Key to get access to stats to generate those kinda things. I'd love to have a go at developing more advanced stats to be viewable on a website. Most of the stats don't account for game length, which skews it quite a bit.

Ixtellor wrote:While their is no doubt that you, being diamond, are going to be a great warder, I was thinking that average game length is going to skew that website.
Yeah, game length is probably a fairly big factor. I'm definitely not warding excessively, but I do ward a bit more than the average partly because the champs I play.

edit: Yay diamond again. Onto challenger... I wish.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Ixtellor » Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:11 pm UTC

This season....

Seems like it still hasn't sorted itsself out skill level wise.

I have losing record at Jungle which I play well.
In my last 4 jungle losses, I pink lanes for them, I feed them kills, I shut down the enemy jungler, I babysit camp them if they are horrible (Our Trundle v a teemo --- killed teemo 3 times for him and he still went 1-8), I secure the towers... And still getting too many losses, including 2 last night where I helped top get the Inhib at the 20 min mark and team led in kills.

Then I play ADC a few times --- 100% win rate. I am awful at it. I never get many kills and always end up with more deaths than kills.
But I do what you are supposed to do...
Dont feed (90% of my deaths are team fights or defending an objective)
I CS like a madman.
I get objectives.
I don't frontline, I dont' facecheck bushes, I don't go off on my lonesome with 4 MIA's and poor vision...

So I guess the rant is ---- how are their people with higher MMR than me that do facecheck bushes, chase kills instead of objectives, feed, play frontline as a ranged carry, Can't CS (Vayne in last game had 133 CS in a 35 min game), get hit by 100% of skill shots, never ward, push past river with no vision........ Its mind boggling.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby elminster » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:28 am UTC

@Ixtellor: I just spectated one of your games you played as Garen vs Rene. You won, there was several things you did more than needed in a good way, but several things you did really badly (Note:This focuses on the negative things, not that you only did that):
Spoiler:
Firstly, your CSing was poor early on. You didn't make enough effort to get every last CS (Shockingly your midlaner only had 136cs and theirs had 219 at 47mins, which I've not seen in a long time). You could have at got double the CS early on if done at a high diamond level, but at least 30% more cs if done to a plat level.
You didn't really fully utilize the advantage of cloth +5 pot over his dorans, nor were you trading damage optimally. It's kind of difficult to explain all the finer details, but essentially you should have had more CS than him and/or forced him to back by the time the 5 pots were used. Instead, by the time the wave was pushed, you had to flash to avoid a gank and he backed near the same time with about 9 more cs iirc. That means he was ahead in item value quite a bit.

After killing rene top with an amumu gank, you tried to do damage to the tower then canceled your back rather than just backing to buy. That's really bad, you lose out on CS anyway, potentially die to jungler gank and potentially lose your entire tower for a few CS, which you would have got anyway if you backed sooner.
There was a point where you were 3v5 top, but pressured so hard without vision. Which ended in 2 for 1 (They got a shutdown kill), but after they got mid and 2 more kills, traded for a inner bot.
The pink for the baron setup was nice, but knowing that he failed smite 2 times before, you should have been more careful at what time you actually tried it. They smited it at 57hp.
After you got the mid inhib, you tanked the bot inhib tower and postured to take it. That's a really bad move, not only were most of your team low, but ez was up with baron buff still, shyv and rene were still there. The best move by far would have been to immediately rotate to top tower after taking mid, the minion wave already hit the tower so it was an easy target. By tanking the tower (Note: None of your other teammates could have) you drew them in to die.
Then a little while later, you went in to fight Shyv (Full fury) and Rene 2v1 with no vision, where lulu died coming to help you and you didn't get the kill.

After you grouped near baron, killed nami, gragas, rene then ez died. You went to clear the minions rather than going straight to the inhib. This also delayed your retreat, which is where nami got caught. Instead of leaving her (she was almost certainly dead regardless of what you did) you went back in to try save her, which made amumu go in as well dying because of it. That allowed them to get an easy baron.

A bit later you waited in a brush on the right side trying to catch them out (Note:They still had baron buff) without vision directly at their blue, only Annie waited around near you because you were so deep. Shyv flanked you and 2 of you died because of that (You were lucky to get a kill out of that), which allowed them to take your mid inhib tower and inhib.

Don't assume just because you do something that people won't follow. You can say "well, just let me die if I do something wrong", but the problem is that no one will commit when it is needed. It's clear other people didn't know what to do either, so trying to make plays incorrectly is bad at least and complete throws at worst due to events snowballing from your actions.

There were also several miscalculated/misused ults. 2 near-full HP ults included.

So although you finished 271CS (Almost the highest which was 277), 9/4/9, made some positive plays beyond what was needed, you also lead your team into some of the plays which threw large chunks of your advantage.
tl;dr: By the stats you had a good game, but the gameplay shows it was far from perfect. I can't really judge you just by 1 game, but I can definitely see things which would hold you back if done remotely consistently.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Ixtellor » Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:06 pm UTC

Thank you very much Eliminster.

A have several questions and replies.
Spoiler:
1) Something I find myself doing a lot lately, because I am generally leading in gold and gear, is split pushing which almost always results in the enemy to send 2 champs, including one of their carries since I generally bully their top/jungle.
My reasoning is that this frees up my team to push a lane 4v3 which should be free towers/inhibs.
Is this is a wise? Should I just stay with my team and force the 5v5?

2) Renek is the only melee champ that scares me top. In that particular game, at level 2 or 3 he took half my health off a stun, which made me nervous as hell.
So I guess my question is:
If I go for Every CS and the enemy focuses on damaging me... will I still come out ahead if I have to fountain and he gets to stay in lane?

3) Your advice about me pushing into dangerous scenarios gets my teamates killed, seems spot on.
My question would be: If my team is dumb, like our ADC who was always in the jungle farming after we got kills, do I just need to accept that its too dangerous to push and im putting my team in danger? I feel like if I don't go for objectives when we have the advantage then we are wasting it.

IE --- assuming your team won't go for objectives, is it better to risk taking them and possible dying, or just continuing to farm safely?

4) The ULT missing was frustrating the hell out of me and why I only had 9 kills. (I also flashed twice to finish off an Ez and didn't get it). What was happening was I was Fing up my combo of Ignite then Ult and kept ulting then igniting. I usually only do that in team fights, I think its because I get tense. I recall feeling like I missed a lot more kills that game than usual, but I should probably keep track of wasted ults -- I feel like that was one of my worst games on Garen.

5) I don't know if you can read chat when spectating, but my Team was chasing like crazy. You might recall one fight we won, then EZ and Nami lead 3 teammates on a wild goose chase all the way to river. I was spam typing "Let them go, get the inhib!!". I must have typed "stop chasing kills" 20 times.
So my question on that: Should I join in the chase since my teamates are dedicated to it, which will get kills and prevent our deaths --- or should I push objectives knowing I might feed a kill?

6) I'm not sure what your advice would have been on the Baron and our horrible jungler who couldn't smite worth a damn. Sounds like your basically saying don't do it unless their enemy jungle has no chance to steal. (This is one thing I love about jungle Volibear --- Bite + smite means I always get the kill because the enemy isn't expecting such a huge burst)

7) I had a good weekend, went from Silver 4 19 LP to Silver 3 71LP.

8) My big question, and the one I have been asserting but which you can better judge --- Of the 10 players in the game with the same MMR as me --- did I play better than most/all of them? Did you notice a skill difference, etc.

9) Thanks a ton again for taking the time to give advice and commentary. I will certainly work harder on CSing from top lane.


I ask a lot of questions, that I assume other players like me could benefit from, if you happen to answer.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Weeks » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:23 pm UTC

You can't read team chat while spectating, only all chat.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby elminster » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:42 pm UTC

Spoiler:
1) It really depends on minion positions, player positions, which champs people are playing, your ability to kill someone if needed, ability to take towers. Split pushing it a pretty complicated thing and it's largely down to how the rest of your team react. Since people don't know what to do (Basically the same for everything below diamond 4 in my experience) you have position for split pushing when the rest of the team can capitalise on it.

It's good to note movement patterns of players and abuse weaknesses of it, for example: Another option which works well upto upper plat is pushing a wave such that it's going to be big just before you choose to engage elsewhere. In silver, someone will almost always go defend it even if you're just about to group for a teamfight. The problem then comes with actual engaging.

2) Essentially (Goes for all trading hits), you want to hit him or threaten him hardest when he goes for a CS. That gives him the option of either taking the CS, trading back a hit, or moving away.
Although you were missing CS where he couldn't hit you or trade and you were trading hits while your CS was about to die rather than his was.
If the top laner can't get a advantage by freezing the lane and/or he can't push super fast, trading your HP for CS then clearing the wave and backing will force him to clear the waves and back to match you item wise can. If he doesn't back, you'll have the upper hand in items and potentially force it to his tower making him miss even more.
Generally you always want the enemy to back first, so you get 1 wave advantage, but if they're too busy focusing on harassing you, you'll be ahead after backing just due to the extra CS.

The Cloth +5pot start gives 500hp more than dorans in total (Excluding -8 basic hit damage, and hp regen), this can be used to force rene to back before you early on if done right.

3) In that game you were pushing objectives in the wrong place in several cases. It's not that the team wasn't following you, it's that you made bad calls in a few cases.
E.g. After taking the mid inhib, top inner tower was by far the better option. By tanking the tower (Amumu was low, so only you could have done it) You couldn't have got the objective and the best you could have hoped for is surviving, which makes it a worse option than just running away.

The mid push while they were doing baron was risky, since that generally won't work (They had ample time to defend, but didn't clear the last 2 super minions). Although that paid off with a tower.

In general, you should try take objectives where possible rather than just leaving them, but you need to assess the level of risk better.

4) Happens to everyone. You'll still see me doing ults at full HP on trynd on the rare occasion, just because I'm not fully used to him.

5) Again, it's not so crystal clear. If they're going to die, let them die and use that time to take the objective if possible. If you can't get the objective, then picking up kills after they die is also good.
Chasing AND dying is 100% loss. There's rarely an occasion where you can chase for a long time and still get an objective after. Although you have to evaluate how good the person being chased is at defending and how good the enemy team members about to spawn are.
e.g. Chasing a support rather than taking inhib, allowing a fed enemy Irelia to respawn before you get there is a terrible idea. However, if most of their power is on one person, killing that person might allow you to snowball multiple objectives, especially if it's their main defence for those obectives (e.g. A fed ziggs can make taking towers near impossible).

6) If you have an advantage, doing baron risks throwing that. Really it's better to just avoid doing it unless you're almost certainly going to get it. You'll eventually learn exactly when and when not to do it, but even in upper diamond people don't have a clear idea. It's mostly only diamond 2 or 1 players I seen consistently make the right calls with it, everyone below that is either obviously easy barons or do it where there's unneeded risk. This is also dependant on team comp and players abilities to do things, like someone could just nuke their jungler before they could even get close just due to good positioning/timing/warding.

If your jungler was good, that baron would have been secured, but he already missed 2 dragons and was generally playing poorly compared to the others.

7) Nice. I failed promos to D4, but should get there shortly though.

8) It's hard to say really. My 2 biggest criticisms in general were A) Incorrectly choosing what objectives to go for or setting up for them. B) CSing.
CSing in top lane is a pretty tricky thing to get right since it's practically always a fight to the death since most top laners are melee. Also you'll learn to CS better over time. My CSing is generally below average for my rating (due to poor mechnics), but I tend to make up for it in other ways.

You proactively got things done, which is good, but the fact that your team was already ahead made some critical objective targeting mistakes is more of a negative than it usually would be. You can't always look at mistakes being equal in all cases. Throwing advantages has a snowball effect, it prevents you from gaining an even higher lead.

As I mentioned in a few posts, sometimes getting high rating isn't about making crazy plays, it's about minimizing mistakes and just doing a little better. If you wouldn't have made those few big tactical mistakes and improve CSing slightly you should easily be able to get gold/plat.
Especially with the nature of how gold works in LoL, getting kills then being killed gives quite a lot of gold back, CSing is gold that doesn't increase your death gold beyond 300. So rather than trying to get another kill, you could just dominate the lane instead (Maybe not in that game) and deny CS. The gold difference would be far larger than getting a kill and dying again.
A lot of the points about tactics are really complicated to just say X is the best option. Some are quite clear, but things like baron and split pushing even get misplayed badly by top tier teams. CSing is practically the only thing that goes up remotely linearly as ratings go up (Warding to, to a degree, but warding as much as diamonds do in silver would probably be a waste).
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Ixtellor » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:03 pm UTC

Ok, I get what you are saying about CS and trading hps. That all makes sense.

I also understand the point about not focusing kills. I get lots of kills = I am worth more gold.
So better to just farm CS and bully them so they Can't CS.

1) That is psychologically hard as a Garen because getting kills is easy 1v1 when your ahead.
2) Is that still true at silver level? Everytime I see a smurf they got nuts. My #2 duo partner is already platinum 3 (he plays a lot) and he would end most games with 20+ kills (Wukong).
3) Too bad you didn't see my previous game as me Garen v a Riven. I did what you said in that game, where I would just stand between him and the creep wave and not let him farm, while I did CS.

One more question, about a conflict.
In previous posts you suggested its the job to help other lanes and do whatever it takes to make sure they dont' get wrecked. Doesn't this cost you a lot of CS if you are constantly leaving lane to help mid, junlger, or bot?

I don't know if you recall, but I did leave top lane probably 2-3 times to try and help mid based on the advice I need to help snowball other lanes.

Thanks again, for all the great info.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby elminster » Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:27 am UTC

Harassing should mostly be done in between CSing. If you're on a lane bully like Garen, you can harass them a lot more, but you should still be looking to get as much CS as possible since you have low kill potential vs rene. Harassing would serve more of a purpose to force him to back or keep him away from the minion wave to deny him.
When I was watching, you missed quite a few CS where you just incorrectly prioritized the minions; they just died while you were standing around near them. So it's not just that you were harassing him at that point.
With the cloth + 5 pot start, you can attempt to force them out of lane (since you have +500 effective hp over him) which would give you the advantage. You didn't force him out of lane, still used all your pots, and still ended up with lower CS than him by the time both of you backed. That shouldn't happen in that matchup.

Your CSing wasn't *that* bad that silver should be your highest rank, but your tactical mistakes potentially were.

If they can't push fast, you can shove the wave and go roam. Or if you backed first (they would back shortly after normally), shove hard then immediately roam, that ensures they've not laid any wards and they can't chase you. This can potentially work for top, mid and support.
If the lane opponent freezes the lane, that's a good time to roam. Although sometimes you need to stay in lane to stop them free farming, then it depends how much you can get done by roaming.
E.g. Although a good nasus can freeze the wave at his tower, the top laner can roam mid with the jungler help and relatively easily kill him. That allows for early mid tower, which progresses the game faster (Good way to beat nasus).
The thing about roaming in general is that LoL is generally fairly balanced now, by ganking a lane you upset that balance in your favour (usually). Even if they flash immediately after seeing you, that means that a jungler gank next time will mean death. You also give the pyschological factors which cause people to play worse, like fear of ganks, annoyance at their team that they're getting focused, etc.

Generally you want to look at it as CS, lane pressure, and tower HP lost vs advantages in other lanes. If the other lanes can snowball from 1 gank, you may have lost 200g of minions, but you've just gained >1000 gold difference overall in the near future. Roams also translate into dragons and/or objectives, if their mid laner roams and gets a kill bot lane, the dragon advantage could easily make up for any CS they lost.
Even as support, roaming mid to assist getting a kill for your Kat, Riven, Akali or any other snowball champ could singlehandedly tilt the game in your favour. Sometimes people only do badly because the enemy are snowballing against them due to a gank. Other times, they're just bad; that's where you need to careful when ganking for them.

They did the Kayle nerf(?), although from the looks of it, it could almost be a buff. Quite a substantial portion of kayles damage isn't related to Q scaling and I tend to find that heal becomes much more of a factor late game anyway. Since it now gives a huge movement buff, Kayle now has one of the strongest speedups at late game. Also no mana cost on ult is pretty powerful, not having to balance mana for clearing waves so you can use ult eliminates one way you can out play Kayle.
I'd have to test it, but I'd imagine she's still strong.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Ixtellor » Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:42 pm UTC

Another great reply Elim.

My question:
How does your gameplay have to change when you go from high level teammates to low level ones?
For example, back to the game you observed.
I didn't call for the Baron my team started it so I felt obligated to join in.
I am currently of the mindset that the Baron is only for the losing team. It feels like any scenario where you can secure the Baron you could probably secure a tower or inhib.
I only ever call for Baron kills if my team is losing, or if we can sneak it on a winning team. (Or every once in a great while if we can't do anything else) I have been involved in MANY baron losses when my team wins a fight, are all hurt badly and they push the Baron only to get aced.

Hence, how does your crappy team dictate how you play? IE what would you do if your team was going to Baron no matter what but you know for a fact it will result in a massive mistake (losing baron and dying). Do you help them out anyway or do you take the safest possible, smart, decsion (farming, pushing, etc)

I'm going to play a few games tonight, hopefully qualify for my Silver 2 promos. ( I just need 2 wins in a row)
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Re: League of Legends

Postby elminster » Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:12 am UTC

Ixtellor wrote:I didn't call for the Baron my team started it so I felt obligated to join in.
I know a lot of high level players consider risky barons a terrible idea at almost any rating.

Part the problem is that teamwork wins games, but if people don't actually know what they're doing, then people lead each other into terrible positions. The only counter to it is to have a better judgement and lead your team into better plays. There's always an element of randomness and unpredictability, but not being judgemental and commanding will only get you stuck at low ratings and slows your learning of the game.
It's almost more important to learn from successes/failures every time than making good calls. The biggest problem with this whole "Elo hell" thing is that it stops people learning from their mistakes. Rather than "He did badly, that's why I lost", it should be "I could have done this instead, it probably would have been a better idea".
Even if someone else makes a bad decision, you can influence what lead up to it and where it goes.
E.g. In your game, your team was all near baron, and you laid a pink at baron. Pinking it is good, but that leads your team into thinking people want to do it. If it is a bad idea (Usually is if you're unsure), then you should danger/back ping it before people move into position to do it.

It's far better to bait a baron than it is to actually do baron. Baiting and killing people turns a risky baron into a free baron or objectives. The biggest risk of baiting is if they know you're baiting and they have a superior AOE team comp, even then they may funnel in 1 or 2 at a time to check.

That's kinda vague, but basically avoid baron unless it's easily taken. If team starts it at a bad time, ping them back/danger asap. Don't be afraid to leave it, it's not worth getting wiped immediately after.

I could do with longer to really think about how I should word that really.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby BlackSails » Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:55 am UTC

Such a frustrating aram.

We have gallio AND amumu.

And neither one of them is able to ult in a team fight. Most of the ults

A) Missed entirely
B) Were used after our whole team was dead
C) Not used at all (ie, the teamfight ended and we had ults up)

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Re: League of Legends

Postby Ixtellor » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:35 pm UTC

Played 2 games, both losses.
But, I was going to go jungle as 4th pick when enemy took Renekton, so instead I went Garen top and tried to implement the CS advice. The Renekton punished me on every CS and forced me back a few times, also he got my tower first but that has more to with Khaz ganks, and me getting no ganks (By request because our bottom went like 0-8 to start the game, and I told our jungle to camp it).

At one point I was #2 in CS (To their draven who was free farming at will). I also started game 2-0 which meant I had a lot of gold and it did at one point allow me to tie up the kills;deaths (We were down by 15 kills and as I got up to 10-2 the team caught up with me)

I had one epic mistake that probably led to the loss, I engaged a Draven who got to close to me, which caused my team to all in.
My other HUGE mistake was buying 3 offensive items, and I really needed to have only one because everyone else on my team was squishy (including our Thresh who was probably the worst I have ever seen, never saw a single lantern but did see him facecheck bushes 10 times)

I was quite farmed and bought an IE when I should have bought a Randuins.
That did allow me 1 shot their Draven several times, but didn't allow my team to have a good initiator.

I think if I had gone full tank I would have been able to lead my team back to victory because there were not really and good players in that game, and my team really just needed someone to absorb the burst from their carries and still have an impact. It was a comedy of errors.

I did finish the game #2 in CS only to a MEGA fed, full build draven.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Kag » Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:13 am UTC

I dunno about that. While Garen can become extremely difficult to kill by building pure tank, he doesn't do much else, since he has no real cc, and doesn't have a lot of built-in damage. Your initiate should have been facilitated by Eve ult, but once the fight starts, there was no way your team could reasonably peel. Your best bet would probably have been to avoid any kind of prolonged fight altogether, and only engage where you could broadside them with all of that AoE.

I agree that three offensive items was a bit much, though. The rest of your team should have prioritized armor as well, since you were against 3 AD. Weirdly, most of the enemy team also did a bad job of itemizing against your heavy magic damage team.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Ixtellor » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:38 pm UTC

Kag wrote:I dunno about that. While Garen can become extremely difficult to kill by building pure tank, he doesn't do much else, since he has no real cc, and doesn't have a lot of built-in damage. Your initiate should have been facilitated by Eve ult, but once the fight starts, there was no way your team could reasonably peel. Your best bet would probably have been to avoid any kind of prolonged fight altogether, and only engage where you could broadside them with all of that AoE.

I agree that three offensive items was a bit much, though. The rest of your team should have prioritized armor as well, since you were against 3 AD. Weirdly, most of the enemy team also did a bad job of itemizing against your heavy magic damage team.


Yea, I was angry in Champ select at the Eve pick because we really needed a studier champ.
When I said full tank, I really meant 1 offensive item. I think if I had a raundions and warmogs, I could have survived their burst allowing my team to finish them off, our Ziggs was decent.

But most people in that game felt sub par. Our bottom went 0-10 to start and lost 2 towers.
Their Draven who dominated my team, face checked bushes or would go farm by himself and I caught him at least 3 times alone and insta killed him. Their Renekton and Leona got caught many times (not as many times as our "I don't throw Lanterns" thresh though). Every aspect of play felt very sloppy that game, with myself adding those 2 critical errors, one of which probably cost the game. CS , pushing, and kills I did fine, but... whatever.

Going to bang out a few games today starting 4:30pm Central (US) time.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Biliboy » Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:15 am UTC

I'm following this conversation with great interest, trying to do better myself.

Found an interesting read on the Guides and Strategy forums on the main website, http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/bo ... ?t=4214288

It's a bit of a long read but makes extreme sense, aimed at the bronze/silver players 'stuck' in their division. It makes me wish I could spectate my own games (without messing with stuff like Lolreplay or fraps) to see how I play without the pressure of the moment.

@BlackSails, I think we've all been there, but it's balanced by those games where everything syncs up. Had one epic aram ages ago where we had galio+mf+ori, and without planning (I think we just all dinged 6 at once) completely melted their entire team in the space of a few seconds. We spent the rest of the game trying to replicate the feat.


I'm looking forward to the Hexakill mode myself, will be very entertaining. I think something like using the 6th position for supporting as mundo top would work out best, as the more bruisers you have late game the better, especially with 6 sources of damage. Squishy, non-mobile champs will be worthless.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby BlackSails » Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:31 pm UTC

6th position as another support, and either go top lane, or just trade no farm with enemy jungler. You could do like nunu anti-jungle, and have him just be a pain to the enemy jungler and steal buffs all day.

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Re: League of Legends

Postby elminster » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:06 pm UTC

In 6 man teams I'd imagine it's going to become either duo top/mid with favour towards higher utility aoe team comps. Typically utility (especially aoe) becomes far more effective with the more grouped setups.
Also double teleport will become an option since you won't need an extra ignite/exhaust due to extra damage/cc in team fights. Double split push would be hard to stop (In a 2/0/4 or 4/0/2 lane configuration) since even if your team lose elsewhere the relative pushing power of 2 can easily negate a lost team fight elsewhere. The issue would be getting the gold to nuke the solo defender.

I tried out the new Kayle in some games so far, I was right in thinking that the MS bonus on heal is more useful than it would first appear. Almost every game there's been an occasion where the extra MS has given a kill or saved me or someone else from dying. Ult, Q, flash, heal and there's barely any champs that can possibly catch up with you.
It feels like the edge has really been taken off Q, but you have to remember that it's the 5% on-hit bonus from masteries, stacking debuff, synergy with nashors (+15% ap on hit damage), liche bane, high base damages that all go into the equation. The easy wave clearing and ult make her almost always useful. The removal of mana cost from ult allows you to avoid being out played and gives extra play options.

The extra heal and movespeed is a deceptively large buff, especially late game where it provides twice the utility it used to. To put it in perspective, a 500ap build end game gives +65% move speed for 2 seconds, that's the second highest movespeed modifier in terms of % out of any ability except rammus Q. 400 base movespeed + heal would give +260 raw movement speed (560 final). Zileans speed up lasts for 5.5s, at 55%, so it's technically stronger overall, but sometimes speed > time for initiations since it's less predictable.

Overall I think she's close to similar power level as before damage wise, but gained utility that, potentially, easily makes up for the difference in some cases.
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Re: League of Legends

Postby Ixtellor » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:35 pm UTC

I have not seen a Kayle since the change, so can't comment. I do hope he does less damage, because he was punishing if he was against a melee champ.

Played one game yesterday and carried my team.... as Garen top. I didn't want to top, but other team first picked Nasus which scared our first pick guy who did want top.

I utterly brutalized him until mid game.
Denied the hell out of him, focused on my CS, killed him 3 times, and got his tower before he got a single hit on mine. Even with Khaz ganking me I still crushed him, and on one gank I killed both of them.

Game dragged on and on because of lots of sloppy play, and we nearly threw, but I felt like I made fewer mistakes and got a LOT of cs.

I was confronted once again with my team wanting to Baron after an Ace, and quad pinged mid, then took off. 2 came with me and our blitz + ADC baron'ed anyway. We got tower and inhib, but then lots of bad stuff happened.

Long story short, been trying to take all of Elimns advice, but I feel like teamates make that difficult when they refuse to get objectives. (After I started roaming we got 100% of Dragons - 6 more towers, and one inhib before the final victory. ) We very nearly lost that game regardless of being up SOO much but luckily their jungle and thresh let me kill them in jungle and made the final push.
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