xkcd

by **Windowlicker** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:09 pm UTC

Been watching some streams while I've been revising for exams, it seems the insta-pic/ban list is revolving around Karthus, Shaco and Skarner. I understand Shaco and Skarner, but why has Karthus made this comeback? He wasn't anything last time I had the chance to properly play...

Edit: Ahri and Kassadin also perma-banned. Ahri I can understand, but Kass is another one who.. I wouldn't have expected.

by **DaBigCheez** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:11 pm UTC

Only real change I can remember to Karthus recently was a nerf (though I've been out of it for a month or so). Intrigued by this prospect, given that he *is* my main...

by **eeris** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:29 pm UTC

Not sure if this has anything to do with the bans but I did see someone jungling as him rather effectively...

by **rigwarl** » Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:39 am UTC

I made a LoL Poker game.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/sho ... st19670444

by **Goldstein** » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:43 am UTC

That's pretty epic, Rigwarl. I enjoyed reading the abilities of a few of my favourite champs, and the strange costs assigned to extra payments seems to suggest you've really thought about the value of the abilities. It does rather complicate things though - I don't think I'd be able to keep track of Tristana's Draw a Bead if it was my own choice, never mind having to consider that the guy opposite me playing as Skarner might have magicked up a flush.

by **Windowlicker** » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:02 pm UTC

That's pretty cool. After skimming/reading my most-played champions, the only question I have is in the wording of Orianna's: "Orianna- Clockwork Windup- You are dealt 3 cards instead of 2 if you are on the button (to the right of the small blind).". Doesn't that just make you.. the dealer?

by **rigwarl** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:27 am UTC

Button is the proper term for it (since in an actual casino there is a designated dealer but the button travels around the table), but yes lots of people just call it the dealer

by **Lostdreams** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:14 pm UTC

Sejuani, jungle tank extrordinaire. I love her until she takes all of my farm when she passes through my middle lane. Seriously though, nerf that farm, she's busted.

by **Windowlicker** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:16 pm UTC

Played my first game of (non-bot) jungle Rammus, went 9/3/12 or something like that. He is very, very good. My team was trying to get me to go jungle Irelia.. I think her ganks might work, but she also might need too much farm to be effective. Maybe I'll try it later.

by **eeris** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:32 pm UTC

Windowlicker wrote:Played my first game of (non-bot) jungle Rammus, went 9/3/12 or something like that. He is very, very good. My team was trying to get me to go jungle Irelia.. I think her ganks might work, but she also might need too much farm to be effective. Maybe I'll try it later.

Irelia... jungle? That's bonkers (unless someone can tell me why that's a good idea, it's certainly nothing I've ever seen).

I finally decided to go for Udyr as my solo top champ as he seemed like the choice with the fewest counters. In my first game I came up against Irelia (who always caused me problems in the past) and picked up fb on the first wave. Everytime she got level with the river I picked up a kill. Their nocturne jungle tried to gank me a couple of times but wriggles + ninja boots kept me safe despite extending all the way to the 2nd turret. All in all pretty pleasing but I think I'm going to see how Nidalee is played solo top these days, it seems people have moved away from the pure AP builds that were the norm and have moved into more of a bruiser AP/AD role. You know, to keep my options open.

by **Windowlicker** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:24 pm UTC

I'm not sure if it would work (hence switching to Rammus), but I can see SOME positives about it... lifesteal on her W will keep her alive while farming the forest, then Q and E will let her dive in and stun/slow for a gank. Her ulti is great at picking up kills on runners. But, like I say, she needs farm to be good, and only really starts to bring the hurt when you get a trinity force on the go.
I've been quite liking the solo top recently, it's a much more relaxed lane than bottom (in my experience).

by **rigwarl** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:56 am UTC

Junglers without AoE damage not very good anymore, ironically.

by **big boss** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:13 am UTC

Here's an interesting idea from someone over on the LoL forums.

Basically he argues moba's should take out last hitting/make it less important so players can focus more on teamwork and using their champion's abilities to focus on the enemy champions. Personally I think its a brilliant idea. One of its pros is that the game would be much more dynamic and interesting (its not fun watching hp bars go down and trying to time a last hit, it might take skill but its not a very fun game mechanic). Apparently Blizz's new dota game won't have a last hit mechanic. Thoughts?

by **Intrigued** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:57 pm UTC

Good for some, bad for some, some wouldn't care. I haven't read the post, just your summary. As for the main point though, I find that everyone generally already uses their abilities on enemy champions rather than for last hitting, with the exception of ae mages early on who may try to do both. When it comes time to team fight, people should be getting together and fighting.

So what was the replacement system? You still get exp if you're in the area but that's the only bonus? If that's the case, people would just focus even more on getting the creep wave to stay just outside their turret for maximum ability to soak experience without risk. How did they suggest replacing the gold lost, more for champ kills? I think that would make people even more risk averse since dying once is going to snowball harder than it does now.

All in all I think you're just removing one more skill factor. It'd make the game more fun for people who are bad at last hitting and much less interesting to people who can manage last hitting AND enemies in lane.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how it turns out if that's what they do in blizz's game, but I can't see them making that change in LoL unless it's wildly successful, since changing a part of the game that is already so deeply rooted may cause some high level player turnover (high profile players who log tons of time into a game usually don't want to see the effect of their hard earned skills getting taken away). That's a risk that Riot, as a business, would not be smart to take.

by **rigwarl** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:49 pm UTC

So a melee vs. melee top lane matchup would consist of both players /dancing in the middle of their ranged minions for the first 10 minutes since neither can attack eachother there or wants to push the lane?

by **Mavketl** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:19 pm UTC

rigwarl wrote:So a melee vs. melee top lane matchup would consist of both players /dancing in the middle of their ranged minions for the first 10 minutes since neither can attack eachother there or wants to push the lane?

Wouldn't such a change result in a different meta and different picks up top if the characters you'd usually play there can't do much for 10 minutes?

(I'm not sure what I think of the 'removing lasthitting as an important game mechanic' idea, but your argument seems a bit odd.)

by **Intrigued** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:42 pm UTC

Lane setup might change... but who WOULD want to do anything? You're basically just now placing even more risk/reward on killing enemies, and saying that b'ing from the lane isn't as bad since you aren't losing out on gold and you aren't giving the enemy free farm. As long as you get back before they push to tower, you're fine, and they probably wont' even risk that since if you get back quickly enough, they're giving you an advantage with the creep wave closer to safety.

It seems like the goal is to make champion vs champion fights occur more frequently and earlier, but it would actually discourage this. Harassing is only worth it if you have a greater chance of coming out ahead of your opponent one way or another (if your champ has better burst potential, this might mean taking a little more damage but putting them in a place where you can instagib them). If the defending champ doesn't need to be near the creep line getting CS, they can make sure you take a bunch of creep damage when you try to harass them, making champ vs champ fights occur less than before.

If you're trying to make champ fights happen early and often, the best way is to force goals that make a difference early on and remove the effects of creeps to am minimum (e.g. dominion). The other option would be to remove creeps altogether (e.g. bloodlines).

At this point, it's just an argument over what is "more fun", and that is subjective by nature. Riot has made a game that appeals to a large player base, and, like I said, unless it proves to be WILDLY successful in another game, it'd be an extremely risky move to make such a fundamental change to the way the game plays now that people have invested a lot of time and come to expect a certain thing.

by **Bakemaster** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:23 pm UTC

I think it's odd that you guys would assume no last hit mechanic means no gold from creeps.

by **Intrigued** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:46 pm UTC

So I read the post on the LoL forums, and I think my assumption wasn't entirely unfair. I'm not sure what other options you see, but my initial thoughts are -

1) creeps don't give gold - this is what we've mostly been talking about
2) creeps give gold in the same area as they give experience - this basically doesn't change anything from the argument about 1, you want to stay in a safe range as much as possible.
3) creeps give gold as long as you have tagged them once (or a certain # of times, or first) - similar to last hitting except mostly easier
4) creeps give gold based on how much damage you do to them - this is basically last hitting+. This would focus more abilities on the creep wave.
5) as in the lol thread, creeps give gold base on "contribution" - essentially last hitting+++, you want to take specific actions (damaging creeps, supporting teammates, etc.) that are effectively the same as last-hitting, because people are going to maximize that action to get the most gold

I'm not saying those are the only ways it could work, but until someone presents another option, I'm thinking it's basically "you need to focus on creeps more to get gold" or "you need to focus on creeps less and get more gold passively". How were you assuming it would work?

I mean, we can sit here and say "remove last hitting but put in a system that is better and makes up for the loss of that mechanic" which is akin to "make the game better by doing changes so it's better". To me, that's what the lol forums thread is saying... "i don't think this is a good idea, Riot you should come up with a better one". I'm not saying last hitting is the best thing ever, but I haven't heard of a suitable replacement yet that seems like it would make the game better, from my POV. I'm sure each of the above options would make some % of the playerbase some amount happier, but at some point you have to make a choice or not make a game.

by **rigwarl** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:23 pm UTC

Mavketl wrote:
rigwarl wrote:So a melee vs. melee top lane matchup would consist of both players /dancing in the middle of their ranged minions for the first 10 minutes since neither can attack eachother there or wants to push the lane?
Wouldn't such a change result in a different meta and different picks up top if the characters you'd usually play there can't do much for 10 minutes?

(I'm not sure what I think of the 'removing lasthitting as an important game mechanic' idea, but your argument seems a bit odd.)

Well in theory if this change was made today, yes, I would pick a champion with such a good early game (maybe Udyr) that you can kill an "average" opposing champion through minion damage. However everyone will figure that out after a bit. I understand there are champion specific matchups that bypass this, but in 95%+ of matchups, you cannot fight in your opponent's ranged minion line and vice versa (roughly equal to having an extra BF sword, or ~10 minutes farm advantage).

Btw, the way I interpreted it is you get the same amount of gold as if you last hit everything in a solo lane, and it's split 1/2 in a duo lane or 1/3 if there are 3 champs etc. But as Intrigued said you would need a more exact definition of the alternative to begin to point out of the disadvantages.

by **maybeagnostic** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:49 pm UTC

Intrigued wrote:So I read the post on the LoL forums, and I think my assumption wasn't entirely unfair. I'm not sure what other options you see...

Well, if you want to encourage more action in the early game you could give people money for dealing damage/landing hits on enemy champions or for being near an enemy champion that's being hit. Maybe 50-75% of the money early game would come from gold-over-time from being near creeps but if you want a lot of money you'd have to attack the enemy champions and avoid getting hit yourself. With the normal extra burst of cash if you kill someone so it's still worth getting beat up to land a kill.

by **Intrigued** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:24 pm UTC

Interesting idea, definitely different from my list. If you got that much from just being near creeps though, I have to think that most people would stick with the passivity mentioned above, if you tweaked it down until it became worth stepping out of that passivity, it would shift the balance of power to champs with strong early game harass and high ability ranges. I imagine you'd find that people would play those types of champs and then it would turn into the same passivity, but at longer ranges.

The thing is, in general people value consistency over risk/reward. Trying to go for kills is not worth it because if you die instead you take a BIG hit for the rest of the game. The only real way to change that would be to lessen the effects of dying, at which point it becomes less worth it to actually get a kill.

I guess the real crux I see with the removal of last hitting is that people will set up a safe zone and just chill there, having no reason to increase risk. The only way to make people play more aggressively is to force risk on them. You could do this by lowering the creep exp/gold range absurdly low, so that people are forced to get in the fray to collect on it. The flip side is that if you force aggression, you will generally have one side come out the victor faster and more prominently, and you're just increasing the speed of snowballing.

As is, a good team on the other side of the table is going to punish you for playing overly aggressive. I see no problem with that. I don't think full aggression makes a game good. I don't think packing in more action is always a positive benefit. Part of the skill of this game is in patience and defensive strategies. While people will argue that it's not the right ratio, again it's a choice that riot made to make it how it is. There's plenty of people that like it how it is, and those people aren't going to be as vocal, starting threads saying "i like how cs works, let's keep it this way!".

by **Goldstein** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:50 pm UTC

Last-hitting seems out of place to me because games that involve bashing monsters typically expect you to lay into them as much and as hard as you can, without regard for the finesse of finishing them off. In a typical players-v-monsters game such as, say, Diablo, the monsters drop gold where they stand regardless of how they die, and it's up to the player to claim that. I'm not suggesting that LoL should take this direction, but that the subdued nature of LoL's laning phase is as far from this as I can imagine.

Ultimately, the game is about taking towers and pushing into the enemy team's base. The minions clearly exist with this goal in mind, and it seems obvious to me that the first incarnations of DotA were designed around the idea of these minions pushing the lanes. That your team would be more successful if you could disable your own minions strikes me as a massive flaw in the whole idea of the game, at least from the perspective of the world in which LoL takes place. While I now know better, my first instinct in LoL was not to spend the first ten minutes of every game hiding under my tower and hoping my opponent's minions have more survivability than my own.

I'd like to see an early game focus on pushing lanes. I think this would make the early game more exciting for both participants and observers. There'd be a clear risk vs. reward for being in an aggressive position, returning to base would be more obviously and immediately detrimental (currently, returning to base is a good opportunity to make your lane more favourable), and the game could lose the counter-intuitive situation of two great champions stood around doing largely nothing while the minions tap away at each other.

I agree that LoL doesn't need or want this change - it's popular as it is - and I appreciate that simply heaping on rewards for pushing lanes would encourage a metagame of strong pushing champions, but if a similar game was available and balanced for this sort of gameplay, I'd favour that over the tedious early game that LoL offers.

by **rigwarl** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:33 pm UTC

You would really have to change the game completely, in some of the suggested alternatives like gold based on hitting enemy champions, 90% of melee champions would not be able to farm in a solo lane vs a good ranged champion like Caitlin (which, incidentally, is sometimes the case in DotA).

But I agree that intuitively it makes sense that killing bad guys = good, and even some level 30 players still haven't realized that it's often not because, well, you really wouldn't know unless you read it, watched streams, or are a keen learner.

Surely there are other MOBAs out there that do this? I don't know for sure though.

by **Intrigued** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:20 pm UTC

Bloodlines... no creeps at all. Pretty cool but it didn't hold my interest for too long. Ive played a handful of mobas and haven't seen one without last hitting yet.

by **setzer777** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:11 pm UTC

Another way to encourage pushing of creep waves would be to make creeps significantly better at knocking down towers and increase the benefits of early tower destruction enough to outweigh the benefits of safe farm for the other team (being able to farm at second tower after their first is destroyed).

by **omgryebread** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:20 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:Another way to encourage pushing of creep waves would be to make creeps significantly better at knocking down towers and increase the benefits of early tower destruction enough to outweigh the benefits of safe farm for the other team (being able to farm at second tower after their first is destroyed).

Seems like that would make early game advantages snowball even harder. Pro level games already seem to be mainly won or lost in the laning phase. Winning bot lane and taking the first dragon is a pretty enormous lead, not sure it should be even harder to come back late game. It would probably make it a faster and more fun low level game, but LoL is reliant on it's eSports potential.

by **Windowlicker** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:25 pm UTC

I am on the side of keeping it the way is now. Aside from the tweaks to minion damage, LoL's had the same pattern as every other MOBA since the start, and (I believe) it's the biggest one out there right now. It's a good level of skill to be able to last hit and harrass at the same time, and you're rewarded for having that skill. If it's just champion vs champion, there'll be 10 champions that are used in every match and everyone else will be forgotten, because they're too weak early game. It's said it should be changed because it leads to a 'boring' early-game.. which is not my experience of the game at all. At my level, it is constant harrass, constant fighting with the other champions in lane. If you watched the IEM Kiev, every game for me is like two M5s coming together (just obviously with less skill all around). Obviously this means everyone in the game ends up 100 CS behind those guys at 20 minutes, but it's made up for in kills (and in fun). So yeah, if you want more pvp action.. make it yourself. Be aggressive!

by **setzer777** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:33 pm UTC

omgryebread wrote:
setzer777 wrote:Another way to encourage pushing of creep waves would be to make creeps significantly better at knocking down towers and increase the benefits of early tower destruction enough to outweigh the benefits of safe farm for the other team (being able to farm at second tower after their first is destroyed).
Seems like that would make early game advantages snowball even harder. Pro level games already seem to be mainly won or lost in the laning phase. Winning bot lane and taking the first dragon is a pretty enormous lead, not sure it should be even harder to come back late game. It would probably make it a faster and more fun low level game, but LoL is reliant on it's eSports potential.

That's a good point. I do still suspect that there is some way (short of drastic overhaul) of punishing players less for clearing enemy minion waves quickly.

by **rigwarl** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:20 pm UTC

I wouldn't be in favor of changing that as manipulating lane clash position is one of the fun aspects of the game (imo), but one thing League could change to encourage pushing is to make towers kill ranged minions in 1 hit and/or melee minions in 2.

In DotA, towers have damage ranges so it punishes your opponent to let the creep line reach it since the tower will almost always make you lose cs, but many good champions in LoL (e.g., Irelia) will trivially pick up all 6 minions from a full wave at tower.

by **big boss** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:43 am UTC

'No last hitting' doesn't mean you don't get gold for killing creeps, it just means that the gold is split differently, maybe by how much percent of the creeps hp you kill off (so if you kill a creep at 10% hp you get 10% of the creeps total gold) or maybe you could base it on how far down the lane the creeps are or any other number of factors.

There are definitely ways to make this work without the game devolving into people tower hugging and just sitting behind their creep wave, just need to provide the correct incentives. Also, as someone posted before you need to keep in mind that the meta of the game will most likely change in this type of system so the standard lane comps could change as well as any other number of factors. Now whether or not riot should try this I don't know, but I think its definitely worth tinkering around with at least you need to evolve the genre and this is just one potential avenue.

by **omgryebread** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:37 pm UTC

big boss wrote:'No last hitting' doesn't mean you don't get gold for killing creeps, it just means that the gold is split differently, maybe by how much percent of the creeps hp you kill off (so if you kill a creep at 10% hp you get 10% of the creeps total gold) or maybe you could base it on how far down the lane the creeps are or any other number of factors.

There are definitely ways to make this work without the game devolving into people tower hugging and just sitting behind their creep wave, just need to provide the correct incentives. Also, as someone posted before you need to keep in mind that the meta of the game will most likely change in this type of system so the standard lane comps could change as well as any other number of factors. Now whether or not riot should try this I don't know, but I think its definitely worth tinkering around with at least you need to evolve the genre and this is just one potential avenue.

No matter how you do it, you're altering one of the game's basic principles, which would have enormous effects on balance. Just to remove one stat, dodge, Riot had to redo an entire champion. Last hitting is way more basic to the game than dodge.

How much damage you do? That's a really nice boost to Sivir, who doesn't need boosts. Kinda sucks for Annie, who if she wants to keep up her sustain, will still have to last hit. Really nice for Cho'Gath, who has a no-cost AoE, etc. Sucks for Ashe, who can't clear well at all until late game when Volley has a low cooldown and she can afford to cast it. It basically massively rewards champions who have a cheaper AoE, and really hurts those who rely on their autoattacks to last hit.

How far down the lane the creeps are rewards harder to gank champions. Ones without an escape like Ashe or Twitch are already hurting. It would also make Flash even more important to take as a spell. It massively alters the game, with what I see as little return. Because you already get gold over time, and you're bound to last hit some if you autoattack, the skill floor in LoL isn't that high. (It's not like in Starcraft Brood War, where if you don't have fairly good mechanics, you are almost literally not able to actually play the game.) It would mostly make the game need rebalancing and lower the skill ceiling.

by **Windowlicker** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:39 pm UTC

Very much not liking duo-laning right now. If it's AD/support combo it's okay, 'cause then you're still (or I'm still, since I can't play support yet) going to be kind of alright making your own decisions.. but when it's a situation where you can clearly bully someone completely out of the lane but your partner won't come with you, it's a bit stressful. Especially in a 2v1. Solo lane 4eva.

Edit: Meant to ask, how is Jarvan? He was one of the bruisers I was interested in when I was trying to buy one, but I haven't seen him played enough (and I don't think he's been free recently..) so I don't know if he's worth the pickup.

by **eeris** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:44 pm UTC

Windowlicker wrote:Very much not liking duo-laning right now. If it's AD/support combo it's okay, 'cause then you're still (or I'm still, since I can't play support yet) going to be kind of alright making your own decisions.. but when it's a situation where you can clearly bully someone completely out of the lane but your partner won't come with you, it's a bit stressful. Especially in a 2v1. Solo lane 4eva.

Edit: Meant to ask, how is Jarvan? He was one of the bruisers I was interested in when I was trying to buy one, but I haven't seen him played enough (and I don't think he's been free recently..) so I don't know if he's worth the pickup.

I use him as my main jungler, he's reasonably good. Not really viable as a solo top champ anymore though.

EDIT rather than double post: Anyone got any experience with trynd / AD nidalee / chogath in solo top role or lee sin for jungle that could give me any tips? ie who they're strong/weak against & general laning tips

by **Kag** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:29 pm UTC

omgryebread wrote:No matter how you do it, you're altering one of the game's basic principles, which would have enormous effects on balance.

Let's not sit here and pretend that it's an intentional design choice, though.

by **Intrigued** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:49 pm UTC

Kag wrote:Let's not sit here and pretend that it's an intentional design choice, though.

How is it not? It's one they carried over but they certainly made the choice to keep it and not go with a different system.

by **Kag** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:35 pm UTC

Intrigued wrote:How is it not? It's one they carried over but they certainly made the choice to keep it and not go with a different system.

Well, for one, the designers of Dota had no choice. That's just how Warcraft 3 works.

But in LoL, it's just doesn't really synergize with anything. Like, why does my character automatically attack creeps?

by **Windowlicker** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:11 pm UTC

And I'd say it's shows it's a feature that people like because it still made the transition to every version of the game since.

And I think auto-attacking the closest thing is.. another sign that the designers of LoL want you to be aggressive always, like they keep saying themselves. So they'll try everything to keep you pushing. Of course, hitting s to stop that from happening is easy enough.

by **rigwarl** » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:12 am UTC

In DotA2 you can turn off the automatically attacking when idle thing but I think like no one uses it.

by **Windowlicker** » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:16 am UTC

Yeah.. to be honest, I find it easier to just be running around all the time anyway. It feels more productive.

Also I finally (finally) hit level 30. Ranked.. you can stay where you are now, I am not going there.

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