MMORPGs: On Permanent Death

Of the Tabletop, and other, lesser varieties.

Moderators: SecondTalon, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18686
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: MMORPGs: On Permanent Death

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:09 pm UTC

Tale in the Desert sounds cool (Unfortunately, it's shorthand is 'A TitD', which I'm still not done snickering over), but I don't like the idea of a game that includes as one of the top positions the ability to permanently ban some players.

In short, the construction aspect makes it sound like aspects of Eve's industry.

Turnpikelad wrote:Permanent death basically adds a risk to reward mechanic that's missing from most MMOs: the more power you want, the more you have to risk to have a chance at getting it.

Not really; you're basically assuming that the game will include equal design of risk, that high powered characters will still have some weakness. If they do, then great, permanent death just heightens that risk, and cements the notion that you shouldn't bother attaining that level.
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

Turnpikelad
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:46 am UTC

Re: MMORPGs: On Permanent Death

Postby Turnpikelad » Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:30 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Not really; you're basically assuming that the game will include equal design of risk, that high powered characters will still have some weakness. If they do, then great, permanent death just heightens that risk, and cements the notion that you shouldn't bother attaining that level.


In a permadeath game, no character is utterly safe. But yes, finally achieving a high-powered character naturally means that you'll be able to face the same challenges as others with a lesser risk of dying. You'd still have to be careful and not do anything especially rash, at least not too often, but power means survivability, of course.

What I mean by a risk-reward mechanic in the context of Trials of Ascension is a game in which attaining a high level of power means first going through trials where your character will probably die, the lethality of the path being in proportion to the strength obtained at the end. This doesn't just apply to character progression, however; say your character heard of a dragon hoard up in the mountains. Getting that treasure involves a direct risk to your life. A game with actual character death involves calculation of risks vs. rewards at every turn.

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18686
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: MMORPGs: On Permanent Death

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:51 pm UTC

Yeahyeah, I get it, that most MMOs right now basically reward time playing, rather than skill playing, and a permadeath would act as a filter preventing people from necessarily having the two of those (time spent playing and character prowess) from being so tightly correlated. However, so would a variety of other things that don't take away from the reward of having a character you've heavily invested in. And frankly, the reward for being able to invest in a character long term, for me and my gaming preference, outweighs the reward of having a less involved game.

Personally, I think Eve would be a good platform for this, but if you did away with skill training. If the game was purely combat, and people could upgrade to better ships and buy different gear with money immediately rewarded for victories. For example, if every time you killed a frigate you earned 1isk, a cruiser 10isk, and so on and so forth. When you die, your ship gets blown up, but you still have a wallet to buy stuff with.
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

Turnpikelad
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:46 am UTC

Re: MMORPGs: On Permanent Death

Postby Turnpikelad » Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:59 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Yeahyeah, I get it, that most MMOs right now basically reward time playing, rather than skill playing, and a permadeath would act as a filter preventing people from necessarily having the two of those (time spent playing and character prowess) from being so tightly correlated. However, so would a variety of other things that don't take away from the reward of having a character you've heavily invested in. And frankly, the reward for being able to invest in a character long term, for me and my gaming preference, outweighs the reward of having a less involved game.


The trick to a successful permadeath game, I think, is giving the player something to develop and invest in long term besides his character.

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18686
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: MMORPGs: On Permanent Death

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:46 pm UTC

Right, which as I mentioned previously, includes things like total wallet, or like Gel's suggestion of having access to peripheral characters.

Which, if you've built it into the concept of the game itself, really isn't the same thing as permadeath. Permadeath, like the D2 hardcore mode, if built around the concept of the game not being about your characters advancement, isn't really permadeath then.
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

mike-l
Posts: 2758
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:16 am UTC

Re: MMORPGs: On Permanent Death

Postby mike-l » Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:15 pm UTC

Turnpikelad wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:In a permadeath game, no character is utterly safe. But yes, finally achieving a high-powered character naturally means that you'll be able to face the same challenges as others with a lesser risk of dying. You'd still have to be careful and not do anything especially rash, at least not too often, but power means survivability, of course.


As an example from the only permadeath game I've played seriously, I've never died on a character that successfully completely the Quest. It's certainly possible, but by that point in the game you generally have good ways of dealing with anything while earlier on you don't. Though one of the main complaints from active nethack players is exactly this, that the endgame is too easy.
addams wrote:This forum has some very well educated people typing away in loops with Sourmilk. He is a lucky Sourmilk.

Gauteamus
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 4:46 pm UTC
Location: Ultima Thule

Re: MMORPGs: On Permanent Death

Postby Gauteamus » Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:42 am UTC

As mentioned earlier in this thread by Dthen, I would urge the Original Poster (and anyone interested), to try out Haven and Hearth.
The game is developed by two swedish students on their spare time, is still in alpha, but in a highly playable state.
The game has almost complete character permadeath, though some skills (typically around 25% of actual skill values) can be inherited by the offspring of the deceased character. The game obviously come with alot of community drama and personal trauma at loosing a developed character (PvP crimes like theft and murder can be carried out anywhere and anytime). The harsh effect of getting a character killed is to some degree mildened by the way the game makes players invest into settlement or community infrastructure instead of pure levelling of character.

The game setting is inspired by early Germanic and Slavonic life and mythology, in a very low-fantasy way.
I realize that this post, combined with my low post count, sounds like a right-out advertizement.

In a way it is, because I think this game deserves every piece of attention it can get (not from the gnorant masses, but from people asking questions about where MMO can and should head, like in this thread.)
However, I made this post because the game tries to give an answer to quite alot of the points raised here:
-Permadeath
-Infrastructure building instead of character building
-How to make casual play possible, while still having no cap on skills/stats
-Player created economy and justice (No NPCs except incredible low AI animals :)
-Single high level character vs. army of alts

The game sure has its problems, one of which is an endgame that relies on the players themselves creating drama (or politics :-)
Fell free to PM me if you have questions or problems.

User avatar
Jesse
Vocal Terrorist
Posts: 8635
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:33 pm UTC
Location: Basingstoke, England.
Contact:

Re: MMORPGs: On Permanent Death

Postby Jesse » Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:00 pm UTC

This kind of thing exists already. The Persistent Worlds of NWN that I played on often enforce permadeath of characters. But the game was built around creating stories, like a traditional RPG. Like when I created a travel protection service between towns, if you paid then you got guarded safely, if you didn't then the group of people we were in with attacked you and stole your stuff. This went on for a little while before another group cottoned on and I ended up being caught liasing with the group of bandits and arrested and executed.

It was fun, and it meant that I just got a new character and embroiled myself in a different storyline.


Return to “Gaming”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests