Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Dark567 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:25 am UTC

FFXIII: Lightning Returns came out today? Anyone play this one yet?

Mostly getting mediocre reviews.. but so did the last two. If I enjoyed XIII and XIII-2, will I enjoy it?
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:30 am UTC

I've given FF14 a chance, been playing casually for maybe 2 wks now. It's got some great things going for it (the job system), but I'm so far not terribly impressed. The main storyline quest is the most boring and tedious thing I've ever seen in a videogame. Quests by in large are terribly written and executed.

Not sure if I'll resub.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby rmsgrey » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:55 am UTC

Dark567 wrote:FFXIII: Lightning Returns came out today? Anyone play this one yet?

Mostly getting mediocre reviews.. but so did the last two. If I enjoyed XIII and XIII-2, will I enjoy it?


Not out until Friday over here.

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Drumheller769 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:57 pm UTC

Yea I think most features of FF14 are either really awesome why cant more games do that type of thing, or the I want to gouge my eyes out I cant stand this anymore type of thing. Its so unbelievable polarized in terms of what worked great and what failed so hard.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:04 pm UTC

Sorry, bringing up a third game.

I started playing bravely default. I'm not far, but it's fun so far. Has some time based and social mechanics I haven't seen in FF games yet. PM me for my friend code if you're also playing.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:31 pm UTC

I've been curious to check it out. Thoughts?
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:33 pm UTC

I like it so far, the combat system seems to be a nice iteration of Heroes of light. That said, I've barely got past the point where jobs become available. Detailed analysis spoilered.
Spoiler:
The combat works like so:
Every turn you get a brave point.
Every action (except "default") takes one brave point.
Default is essentially defend, but lets you accumulate brave points.
You can take from one to four actions a turn, potentially going into negative brave points.
If you go negative, you can't act (even default) until you reach zero brave points.
Brave points are reset to zero at the start of each battle.

So the main combat dynamic right away hinges of determining what's sufficient to kill on monster. Do I go negative, hoping to finish the monster off this turn? Is it better to take attacks from both monsters while defaulting or go negative, finish of the first quickly and let the second have a few rounds of attacks where we're undefended.
Oh, and enemies have this system as well; so there's some ability to predict how many actions enemies may take.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby setzer777 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:04 pm UTC

I've found that the Bravely Default combat system makes the scan-type ability more useful than most FF games, especially since one use permanently allows you to see that enemy's current HP. Very helpful for gauging when you can go all out to finish it off.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Zcorp » Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:35 am UTC

setzer777 wrote:I've found that the Bravely Default combat system makes the scan-type ability more useful than most FF games, especially since one use permanently allows you to see that enemy's current HP. Very helpful for gauging when you can go all out to finish it off.

Permanently isn;t really the right word, it allows you to see their stats for rest of the combat. It does not allow you to see their stats in subsequent combats.

I was looking forward to this game and it came suggested by a friend whose opinion is worth respecting. That is until we both got further in the game at which point the game displays a large variety of flaws.

- A game built around jobs that makes caps your level before you can explore even a decent number of the jobs is silly. This games XP to JP ratio is largely flawed.
- That frequency of non-choice abilities and jobs is quite unfortunate, especially considering the job in Job level requirements at Job level 9.
- The largest aspect relating to power for the majority of the game is equipment and thus cash. However, the XP to Cash ration is also largely flawed.
- Magic attacks, like in many FF type games is useless for most of the game, physical attacks do more for less.

- While it is nice to make defend useful, it is simply to powerful creating a strong non-choice for player behavior. Defend (Default) 3 times, then attack 4. The sequence of play for most fights is either Brave 4 times with each unit and wipe our random encounter before they do anything or say against bosses Defend (Default) 3 times to take half damage each turn then attack 4 and repeat. The lack of tell for when the enemy is defaulting most of the time also greatly diminishes the opportunity for the player to act according to enemy behavior. Very very rarely is their a behavior pattern that is better than the above.

Bold choice in story though, unfortunate that many aspects of the system design fall worse than flat.

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby setzer777 » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:34 pm UTC

I actually like that you can't tell when an enemy will default. It makes focus-fire more of a gamble, as you could waste a bunch of attacks on a guarding enemy. After happening a few times to me it's encouraged me to split up my attacks so that at least one enemy will die. I've also been burned when an enemy blinds a physical attacker right before they use four attacks.

I'm still near the beginning (just got thief job) - I started on normal, but switched to hard since it seemed a tad too easy. Hard definitely lives up to its name, especially for bosses (at least for me). It's different experience actually being in danger from random encounters (mostly only get that in Atlus games).

Also just started playing Lightning Returns. I really enjoy the combat and the customization options, but the environments feel a bit messy and uneven. I don't think the story has gotten any worse than the first two games, but that's not saying much. Main frustration for me is getting lost in towns while knowing the clock is ticking.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Zcorp » Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:32 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:I actually like that you can't tell when an enemy will default. It makes focus-fire more of a gamble, as you could waste a bunch of attacks on a guarding enemy.
Nah it just means you don't focus fire until after they default. Being able to anticipate enemy behavior and account for it is much more interesting play than reacting to everything they do. This choice in AI doesn't make it random or a gamble it makes it player behavior reactionary vs directive of enemy behavior.

It's different experience actually being in danger from random encounters (mostly only get that in Atlus games).
That goes away just about now for you. Get a good bow on some thieves and you wipe our everything turn 1 before they act even on hard. From then on very rarely will you ever have an encounter you don't get Turn 1 Victory, which is the easiest of the bonuses to get and compounds the XP vs other rewards Ratio problem. A consistent problem with a lot of RPGs is giving greater rewards for slaughtering relatively easy content rather than asking players to challenge themselves and give rewards for hard fights that you don't win untouched, on turn 1 with attacks that kill everyone at once.

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby setzer777 » Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:53 pm UTC

Well that's too bad. I suppose I could turn off xp gain some of the time.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Zcorp » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:41 am UTC

setzer777 wrote:Well that's too bad. I suppose I could turn off xp gain some of the time.

Aye, the game does give you a lot of ways to handicap yourself if you choose to.

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:43 pm UTC

I actually like the way they do the money. Not being able to afford everything as it becomes available makes for more genuine decisions. You just have to break the new town -> all new equipment mentality. Incidentally, many of the party chats in Florem focus around the folly of spending all of your money on the latest clothes.

I also agree that the classic mp system is problematic. A game needs to at least have a small amount of MP restored with each battle, so you can say "this is my average budget per battle, I can save it up, but once I reach 100% I'm just wasting my magic regen". What I"m doing is always keeping a staff user in the party that can use treat. After ten uses of treat for maintenance healing, I use the rejuvination special, which I have the mp regen (45 pts) part attached. If fact, I think that's my broadcasted move.

I'm not anywhere near the level cap (I think), but I've had able chance to explore all the jobs I've had for any length of time (just got summoner).
Zcorp wrote:
It's different experience actually being in danger from random encounters (mostly only get that in Atlus games).

That goes away just about now for you. Get a good bow on some thieves and you wipe our everything turn 1 before they act even on hard.
Why would you want to do that? I mean, I can see trying to finish the encounter in one round, but at the expense of basing the job choice of your entire party around it? As I see it, these are my goals in a random encounter:
1) XP
2) money
3) progressing though the dungeon (I refuse to turn the encounter rate down unless I'm backtracking or something). This requires sufficient, but not maximal efficacy in fighting the random encounters.
4) exploring job space (seeing all of the abilities and figuring out how I like to use them.)
5) Boss prep: leveling people in the jobs/ abilities they'll use on the boss.

From my (very distant and flawed) perspective, it looks like you're going through the dungeon with a party solely designed for the random encounters, breezing though the encounters, then getting floored on the bosses after spending all your money on bows and not leveling any of the jobs you want to use on the boss. Then picking a hyper specific boss configuration you want and going to a previous dungeon to grind four black mages and the money for the latest staffs (or whatever power combination).
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Zcorp » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:04 pm UTC

Quizatzhaderac wrote:I'm not anywhere near the level cap (I think), but I've had able chance to explore all the jobs I've had for any length of time (just got summoner).

We might have different meanings when we say 'explore.'

Why would you want to do that? I mean, I can see trying to finish the encounter in one round, but at the expense of basing the job choice of your entire party around it?
What expense? What cost do you see to having a party that has maximal efficacy? By the very definition it has minimum costs, nor does it require an entire party to wipe out random encounters on the first turn, generally just 2 strong attackers. 2 Strong attackers with decent speed if you also want to snag the unscathed bonus. These jobs are also generally optimal for fighting bosses as well. One job in particular is one of the best offensive classes for most of the game, is the fastest and trivializes most boss fights.

From my (very distant and flawed) perspective, it looks like you're going through the dungeon with a party solely designed for the random encounters, breezing though the encounters, then getting floored on the bosses after spending all your money on bows and not leveling any of the jobs you want to use on the boss. Then picking a hyper specific boss configuration you want and going to a previous dungeon to grind four black mages and the money for the latest staffs (or whatever power combination).

No sir, the system is so broken in this game that the optimal units for destroying bosses are the same as random encounters. Unfortunate that this puts you in such a defensive position you need to make baseless and very wrong accusations about my behavior. That you would even suggest that four black mages might be optimal in this game is an sad display of your ignorance.

If you don't enjoy playing an optimal group great. What I enjoy about games is finding the optimal choices within their system. Other people give preference to different styles of play, this game's system design hurts many type of players. When you have such strong differences in power between classes you not only make exploring that system boring for players like me, you also make it poor for people who would prefer to use the weaker classes because they enjoy that class. At least this is an RPG and you can account for weak design by grinding.

Also take note that there was never a criticism about the amount of money vs the expense of equipment, but rather one of the ratio of money to XP. Although to criticize the costs vs income their scroll costs are hilariously expensive especially in relation to how poor the offensive casting classes are in this game.

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:01 pm UTC

Sorry I didn't mean to offend: I knew I didn't really understand your perspective, and I just wanted to clearly highlight the difference between our points of view.

As for the question "What expense?" In the abstract: optimizing for only A implies sub-optimizing for B, C, and D. At my level/ location in the story I'd need four thieves with bows to probably wipe all encounters out in the first round on normal, so I'd assumed you meant a full party. Which (for me) would have been an optimal way to clear random encounters, but the worst way to level any job but thief.

"Unfortunate that this puts you in such a defensive position you need to make baseless and very wrong accusations about my behavior" I appear to have greatly underestimated how combative my phrasing seemed. Again: I'm sorry.

"there was never a criticism about the amount of money vs the expense of equipment" Then I'm afraid I have no idea what you meant by "The largest aspect relating to power for the majority of the game is equipment and thus cash. However, the XP to Cash ration is also largely flawed." I took it to mean you were relating XP to available equipment through cash.

Weakly based conjecture: Spells in FF usually don't scale as well as physical abilities, encouraging you to use higher level spells to compensate. I get the sense we have different content/level ratios (probably because you're playing on hard). I may not be the final master of the game's systems, but I do notice larger damage numbers from offensive casters (with mp) versus physical offense (dramatically if there's an elemental weakness to exploit, or numerous enemies). My hypothesis is thus: the game was designed mainly around normal difficulty. Hard difficulty doesn't just require more power (equipment and levels) and better optimization, but different optimization as the mechanics have been distorted.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby omgryebread » Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:24 pm UTC

I've been playing Bravely Default a lot (especially while waiting for stupid Crystal Tower queues in XIV).

I don't really think the game is that broken. 4 Bows destroying everything is more a consequence of the Angel Bow being incredibly cheap and easily accessible for it's overwhelming power. You can get it very quickly, especially if you imported 20 villagers from the demo, and it absolutely blows everything out of the water for ages.

Pretty much any class setup is viable, at least in normal. I'm finding it fun. The story is outstanding so far, and the jobs are pretty neat, they feel varied and the Support Abilities provide a lot of desire to level them all.

Meanwhile, in XIV, patch 2.16 dropped with a ton of QoL changes and stuff in preperation for 2.2. Apparently the Enrage method for Turn 2 isn't viable, which I'm kind of sad about, as we actually had fun sitting around talking outside the boss room. And now I'll have to pay attention during the fight. Also apparently T5 got changed a bit, and conflagrations might have less HP, meaning my group actually might manage to get through that phase this week.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:27 pm UTC

omgryebread wrote:Meanwhile, in XIV, patch 2.16 dropped with a ton of QoL changes and stuff in preperation for 2.2.
I understand that Cultivation is to be released, which I am not pleased with. I hope crafting and gathering get some love, as both are super cool and unique features of the game.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby setzer777 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:58 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:If you don't enjoy playing an optimal group great. What I enjoy about games is finding the optimal choices within their system. Other people give preference to different styles of play, this game's system design hurts many type of players.


I'm surprised you would play any Final Fantasy games then (or for that matter most JRPGs). Almost all JRPGs have a (relatively) easily discoverable optimal style of play that rules out 90% of abilities or setups. Usually the fun of exploring various jobs/abilities/etc. is in the variety itself (and figuring out how to make each setup work), at the cost of optimization. That seems to be just as much the case in most WRPGs as well (where the incentive for different builds is often roleplaying rather than optimization).


So I've playing Lightning Returns some more, and I'm really enjoying it! I beat XIII enjoyed the combat (though it's unlikely I'll ever replay it given how long it takes for interesting decisions to arise in or out of combat) and I watched my girlfriend play most of XIII-2 (I like Caius, but the story seemed all over the place and she said the game was way too easy). LR seems to have found the perfect implementation of the battle system introduced in XIII. The customization and the fast-paced combat are both spot-on, and even though the story is still pretty iffy, it feels like the gameplay to cutscene ratio is much better. It also feels less grindy, and I like the countdown as a consideration (knowing about the NG+ after loss allays my fears of unwinnable saves).
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Dark567 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:11 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:So I've playing Lightning Returns some more, and I'm really enjoying it! I beat XIII enjoyed the combat (though it's unlikely I'll ever replay it given how long it takes for interesting decisions to arise in or out of combat) and I watched my girlfriend play most of XIII-2 (I like Caius, but the story seemed all over the place and she said the game was way too easy). LR seems to have found the perfect implementation of the battle system introduced in XIII. The customization and the fast-paced combat are both spot-on, and even though the story is still pretty iffy, it feels like the gameplay to cutscene ratio is much better. It also feels less grindy, and I like the countdown as a consideration (knowing about the NG+ after loss allays my fears of unwinnable saves).
I pulled the trigger and bought it. Combat is good, but 'god', the story is bad. Constantly talking about 'gods plan', saviors and saving souls. If I didn't know better I would think the game was a 'bad' christian allegory for the the rapture.
I did spoil my self though, probably for the better:
Spoiler:
The only redeeming thing about the rapture allegory is that it sounds like from reading summaries that god turns out to be a pretty bad dude. Just like real life. Still right now the constant spouting of 'gods plan' makes me want to puke.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby setzer777 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:31 pm UTC

I read that spoiler too:

Spoiler:
Though it's hardly surprising given that we already see what dicks the Fal'cie and Bhunivelze's "kids" are (Etro is possibly an exception, though that's debatable).
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Dark567 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:34 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:I read that spoiler too:

Spoiler:
Though it's hardly surprising given that we already see what dicks the Fal'cie and Bhunivelze's "kids" are (Etro is possibly an exception, though that's debatable).
Spoiler:
I think its a general trend in FF for the gods to be dicks... But yeah, given the Fal'cie, I shouldn't be surprised.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Zcorp » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:32 am UTC

setzer777 wrote:I'm surprised you would play any Final Fantasy games then (or for that matter most JRPGs). Almost all JRPGs have a (relatively) easily discoverable optimal style of play that rules out 90% of abilities or setups. Usually the fun of exploring various jobs/abilities/etc. is in the variety itself (and figuring out how to make each setup work), at the cost of optimization. That seems to be just as much the case in most WRPGs as well (where the incentive for different builds is often roleplaying rather than optimization).
I disagree. While there are often optimal choices, and sometimes pretty easy to discover there are a great many JRPGs that offer a large amount of competitive and fun choices. The Etrian Odyssey series, most Tales games, Fire Emblem has its own problems but there are generally lots of valid choices in units, and a decent portion of the FF series itself (FFT -sure calculators and special characters blow the game up, but till then its system offers many valid choices, Heroes of Light is a recent one that was them as well).

Many of these examples require time investment to achieve that optimal party (not that this is necessarily good). Also to make it clear I think there are some good choices the designers made they just aren't in making all of their jobs viable or the ratio of collecting resources. I like the job system, it just has to be done well to make interesting choices in party comp. If that can't be done I'd rather the designers stick to giving the player a party and asking them to play it as best they can.

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby omgryebread » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:05 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:I disagree. While there are often optimal choices, and sometimes pretty easy to discover there are a great many JRPGs that offer a large amount of competitive and fun choices. The Etrian Odyssey series, most Tales games, Fire Emblem has its own problems but there are generally lots of valid choices in units, and a decent portion of the FF series itself (FFT -sure calculators and special characters blow the game up, but till then its system offers many valid choices, Heroes of Light is a recent one that was them as well).

Many of these examples require time investment to achieve that optimal party (not that this is necessarily good). Also to make it clear I think there are some good choices the designers made they just aren't in making all of their jobs viable or the ratio of collecting resources. I like the job system, it just has to be done well to make interesting choices in party comp. If that can't be done I'd rather the designers stick to giving the player a party and asking them to play it as best they can.
I'm actually okay with a game as long as there's lots of viable choices - and Bravely Default has those. Magic heavy would be difficult, I'd imagine (though 3 Fencers + White Mage would be rather good, I think) but most parties seem like they'd work more or less fine. I'd say that's a fair bit better than Fire Emblems, with their weird-ass growth system (Nephenee) and special characters (Morgan) and experience traps (Marcus).

I don't really see how you can defend FFT and malign Bravely Default. Orlandu, calculators and dancers weren't just optimal: it was like playing an entirely different game.


Izawwlgood wrote:
omgryebread wrote:Meanwhile, in XIV, patch 2.16 dropped with a ton of QoL changes and stuff in preperation for 2.2.
I understand that Cultivation is to be released, which I am not pleased with. I hope crafting and gathering get some love, as both are super cool and unique features of the game.
What's wrong with cultivation? We don't have a house yet, but if it makes that food grind easier, I'll be thrilled. It feels like most of my money is going into food for T5 attempts rather than spending it on other aspects of the economy. I would certainly be buying more materia and crafting gear if I didn't need to drop so much on food each week. And that's paying less than market board price to my coil group's Culinarian. They've said they'll be new item levels for crafters with this patch.

Hotfix today to fix controller issues and revert the Coil changes which were unintentional.

2.2 is coming, and looks really neat. For people who weren't max level and quit, I don't think this is a patch to come back to, though, it seems mostly focused around end-game stuff. New main story dealing with Limsa Lominsa and Leviathan, a new endgame four person dungeon, new turns of coil, extreme mode for Good King Moggle Mog XII, and higher item levels dropping from all those.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:50 pm UTC

omgryebread wrote:What's wrong with cultivation? We don't have a house yet, but if it makes that food grind easier, I'll be thrilled.
I find the notion of FC houses to be pretty stupid. I'm not remotely interested in playing dolls, and joining an in game benefit with the doll house seems super silly to me.

omgryebread wrote:It feels like most of my money is going into food for T5 attempts rather than spending it on other aspects of the economy.
Well, the economy is pretty borked from what I understand. Only two professions produce consumables, and the AH is very clunky. Coupled with the fact that aside from materia attachment, there's no real benefit to leveling a craft, and it's basically all just kind of meh.

omgryebread wrote:New main story dealing
I just want to say, again, that the storyline aspect of this game is by far the worst thing about it. I dunno why I'm paying a monthly fee to sink hours into what amounts to a single player game, with an absolutely atrociously designed chain of quests. They should completely gut the storyline, have big events every 5 lvls or so, and flesh out sidequests available everywhere else.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Zcorp » Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:29 am UTC

omgryebread wrote:I don't really see how you can defend FFT and malign Bravely Default. Orlandu, calculators and dancers weren't just optimal: it was like playing an entirely different game.

FFT has a a few easily avoidable things that break the game, but also with a whole bunch of very similarly powered, distinct and fun jobs pretty much all of which are useful. Bravely default has a bunch of near useless and redundant jobs with only a few party compositions that are actually valid. The game has some good things going for it but it also fails on many fronts. Even the lack of Brave usage is unfortunate, there are very few classes that have useful abilities that cost Brace points. Black Mage, for example, would of been a great place to utilize BP to cast more powerful spells instead of just having crazy high mana costs for the more powerful ones. This would of also put great impact on the value of the squeaky wheel and the like. BP manipulation could of had an interesting element of give and take and instead it is really just regulated to gimmicky, although possibly quite powerful, party comps.

Edit for FFXIV talk:
Izawwlgood wrote:
omgryebread wrote:What's wrong with cultivation? We don't have a house yet, but if it makes that food grind easier, I'll be thrilled.
I find the notion of FC houses to be pretty stupid. I'm not remotely interested in playing dolls, and joining an in game benefit with the doll house seems super silly to me.

A large portion of the players play MMOs for the social aspect, this gives them a home base for that. There is a number of people like that in my FC and they worked a lot to get money for our house. Since the house people in the FC are for the first time putting a digital face to names other FC members. For people that want that social community aspect housing is incredibly valuable to them.

omgryebread wrote:New main story dealing
I just want to say, again, that the storyline aspect of this game is by far the worst thing about it. I dunno why I'm paying a monthly fee to sink hours into what amounts to a single player game, with an absolutely atrociously designed chain of quests. They should completely gut the storyline, have big events every 5 lvls or so, and flesh out sidequests available everywhere else.

They went for world immersion and nothing else, often at the cost of other things. While I'm not one of them, I know many people who found this to be incredibly important to them and that FFXIV does it really well. Generally the same people who worked to build the house and are interested in the community.

They are selling this game on steam with the tag line "escape reality, live the fantasy" which instantly turns me away from the game, but for the most part they aren't building a game for me (or you seemingly). It is just to bad that my FC is friends of IRL friends and so my play group has little interest in taking on challenging content and I have to pug T5 and the Extreme primals every week as they can't beat them with me.
Last edited by Zcorp on Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:00 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:58 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:A large portion of the players play MMOs for the social aspect, this gives them a home base for that. There is a number of people like that in my FC and they worked a lot to get money for our house. Since the house people in the FC are for the first time putting a digital face to names other FC members. For people that want that social community aspect housing is incredibly valuable to them.
I didn't say it was universally stupid, I simply gave my personal reasons for finding it so. Rift has a similar thing, where you can build your own personal little realm, and some people are fucking nuts for it, but it's optional and has nothing to do with the game at large. I don't play MMOs to RP sitting my character in the FCs mansions foyer, because that's extraordinarily boring to me, and tying an actual in game thing to it (cultivation) bothers me. But that's sort of the thing I'm finding about FF14 - you don't really have an option to pick and choose in a lot of ways.

Furthermore, I'm not in an RP FC, and our linkshell is plenty social. I mean, sure, if homies want to spend their own funds to buy a house in one of countless instanced realms and decorate said house, have at it!
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby setzer777 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:48 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:I disagree. While there are often optimal choices, and sometimes pretty easy to discover there are a great many JRPGs that offer a large amount of competitive and fun choices. The Etrian Odyssey series, most Tales games, Fire Emblem has its own problems but there are generally lots of valid choices in units, and a decent portion of the FF series itself (FFT -sure calculators and special characters blow the game up, but till then its system offers many valid choices, Heroes of Light is a recent one that was them as well).


I agree with Etrian Odyssey (I think Atlus in general is much better at designing combat* than Square Enix), haven't played any Tales games, and have only played Fire Emblem Awakening (which seems broken in similar ways - on difficulties below Lunatic you have to intentionally spread out experience to avoid having couples who can solo entire maps).

FFT is generally regarding as one of the best Final Fantasies gameplay-wise. Can you really extend that to the rest? Granted, I've only played VI, VII, X, XII, XIII, and Tactics. But most of those games tend to have tons of OP and UP abilities, or they have very little customization or character differentiation (XII and XIII).

*On an unrelated note, I also think they're far better at writing dialogue.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Zcorp » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:29 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:I agree with Etrian Odyssey (I think Atlus in general is much better at designing combat* than Square Enix), haven't played any Tales games, and have only played Fire Emblem Awakening (which seems broken in similar ways - on difficulties below Lunatic you have to intentionally spread out experience to avoid having couples who can solo entire maps).
Awakening was a particularly broken fire emblem, but they do in general have the problem that leveling 2-3 guys to max is better than spreading xp. However it can be just about any class you want. The shitty part is stat growth is luck based. My point was really that many jrpgs do not have a class system that presents the players with a majority of false or non-choices.

FFT is generally regarding as one of the best Final Fantasies gameplay-wise. Can you really extend that to the rest? Granted, I've only played VI, VII, X, XII, XIII, and Tactics. But most of those games tend to have tons of OP and UP abilities, or they have very little customization or character differentiation (XII and XIII).

Most of recent ff games have very few distinctions between characters. Of the ones you mentioned there are espers, materia, grid, license board that basically end up with most characters being near equally powerful in whatever they want to do as the game progresses.

Izawwlgood wrote:
Zcorp wrote:A large portion of the players play MMOs for the social aspect, this gives them a home base for that. There is a number of people like that in my FC and they worked a lot to get money for our house. Since the house people in the FC are for the first time putting a digital face to names other FC members. For people that want that social community aspect housing is incredibly valuable to them.
I didn't say it was universally stupid, I simply gave my personal reasons for finding it so.

You called it stupid and silly. You might not enjoy it, I certainly don't, but do you really want to say that the people who do are stupid and silly? Isn't just expressing that it doesn't interest you sufficient, while also recognizing that those interested in to don't have to be some how broken to enjoy it?

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:47 am UTC

Zcorp wrote:You called it stupid and silly. You might not enjoy it, I certainly don't, but do you really want to say that the people who do are stupid and silly? Isn't just expressing that it doesn't interest you sufficient, while also recognizing that those interested in to don't have to be some how broken to enjoy it?

Izawwlgood wrote:I find the notion of FC houses to be pretty stupid. I'm not remotely interested in playing dolls, and joining an in game benefit with the doll house seems super silly to me.

Calm yourself and reread what I wrote, taking note of the thrice stated 'in my opinion' terminology. I've said nothing of other people being stupid and silly, and have literally only expressed that it doesn't interest me. I've also laid out a reason why tying it TO AN IN GAME BENEFIT is the problem, not that it exists at all.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Zcorp » Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:54 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Calm yourself and reread what I wrote, taking note of the thrice stated 'in my opinion' terminology. I've said nothing of other people being stupid and silly, and have literally only expressed that it doesn't interest me. I've also laid out a reason why tying it TO AN IN GAME BENEFIT is the problem, not that it exists at all.

Who isn't calm? Stating that it is stupid and silly carries the implication that you are calling the people who like it stupid and silly. While things you state that are opinions are of course yours but you did go the extra step and stat that they are your opinion which is great. I'm just suggesting that leave it at 'those parts of the game don't interest me.'

Edit, with slight spoilers:
Or for that matter discuss the parts of them that are actually bad. The lack of quality main story is a valid point you hit on, at least from what the game considers the protagonists. The lore however is really flushed out and fairly interesting.
Spoiler:
The 'villain' is actually more interesting that most and many players seem to be pro-empire wishing they could of let them win.

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:55 pm UTC

Ok, Zcorp, I'll be sure to add 'in my opinion' a fourth time in the future.
Zcorp wrote:Or for that matter discuss the parts of them that are actually bad. The lack of quality main story is a valid point you hit on, at least from what the game considers the protagonists. The lore however is really flushed out and fairly interesting.
Dude, really;
Izawwlgood wrote:I just want to say, again, that the storyline aspect of this game is by far the worst thing about it. I dunno why I'm paying a monthly fee to sink hours into what amounts to a single player game, with an absolutely atrociously designed chain of quests. They should completely gut the storyline, have big events every 5 lvls or so, and flesh out sidequests available everywhere else.
Just pay attention to the actual things being written.

I'm finding the story not particularly amazing. The central conflict isn't that interesting, the players aren't compelling, and the mind numbingly glacial pace at which it's delivered, not to mention the 99% unspeakably mundane interactions I have with it, all add up to a colossal waste of time. I've been mostly casually reading up on the lore and find it to be pretty typical JRPG gibberish. The writing is pretty shitty to; SE needs to get the memo that Victorian babbling about pirates and God don't inherently make a storyline entertaining.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Zcorp » Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:07 pm UTC

I'm not the one having problems reading...
I was thanking you for adding 'in my opinion.'
I was agreeing with you that the story is weak, and then offering something more specific that could possibly further that discussion.

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:51 am UTC

I had a weird random thought about the Viera: are they like Jackals? Jackals have two sexes, but for all outward appearances they're all male. The Viera could have two sexes, but they all just have all female secondary sex characteristics.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby omgryebread » Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:50 pm UTC

Quizatzhaderac wrote:I had a weird random thought about the Viera: are they like Jackals? Jackals have two sexes, but for all outward appearances they're all male. The Viera could have two sexes, but they all just have all female secondary sex characteristics.
I don't think we know anything about Viera male anatomy, but there definitely are males. They live separately and have little contact with female Viera, and are even more isolationist. One of the FFXII Ultimania books got into it a small bit.

Also, I think you're thinking of spotted hyenas.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:22 pm UTC

Just realized that FF14 has about as much class diversity in the game as Rift does in a single class.

Grinding through the story still. I got Arcanist to 39 (which is cool, because I can DPS with Summoner or Heal with Scholar), Paladin at 31, and White Mage at 32. The story is still terrible and boring and tedious, but dungeons have been pretty fun. I did Sunken Temple a few days ago which was a really awesome experience. Lots of placement and mechanics to pay attention to.

Not sure this game has much in the way of staying power, but I do like some things about it.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Drumheller769 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:25 pm UTC

The boss fights get more intense like that as you go, if you want to see something crazy, watch a Titan EX fight on youtube.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby DaBigCheez » Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:09 am UTC

Yeah, Sunken Temple is about the first "real" dungeon, where the fights stop being "patiently waiting for you to understand the gimmick" and start being more "messing you up in a hurry if you're slow to dodge/aren't DPSing properly/let a mob run free/etc.". And I'm partial to Ultima Weapon Extreme for "lol wat's going on dodge this dodge that OH SHIT LASERS", myself ;)
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Zcorp » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:10 am UTC

DaBigCheez wrote:Yeah, Sunken Temple is about the first "real" dungeon, where the fights stop being "patiently waiting for you to understand the gimmick" and start being more "messing you up in a hurry if you're slow to dodge/aren't DPSing properly/let a mob run free/etc.". And I'm partial to Ultima Weapon Extreme for "lol wat's going on dodge this dodge that OH SHIT LASERS", myself ;)

Ultima Hard is certainly one of the most fun fights. I enjoy Turn 4 quite a bit as well. I'm looking forward to Hard Brayflox as well.

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby setzer777 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:56 am UTC

Zcorp wrote:Most of recent ff games have very few distinctions between characters. Of the ones you mentioned there are espers, materia, grid, license board that basically end up with most characters being near equally powerful in whatever they want to do as the game progresses.


I think I found FFXII the worst in that regard. Materia (and the job system) still require individual customization, so that characters still feel distinct within a specific setup you have going. In XII everyone just ends up with the same full list of spells they can cast, and even their limit breaks are functionally identical. I guess you could eventually get all the same spells for people in VI and X, but it seemed far easier in XII, and the former two still had unique abilities for each character.
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