Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby omgryebread » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:29 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:
Zcorp wrote:Most of recent ff games have very few distinctions between characters. Of the ones you mentioned there are espers, materia, grid, license board that basically end up with most characters being near equally powerful in whatever they want to do as the game progresses.


I think I found FFXII the worst in that regard. Materia (and the job system) still require individual customization, so that characters still feel distinct within a specific setup you have going. In XII everyone just ends up with the same full list of spells they can cast, and even their limit breaks are functionally identical. I guess you could eventually get all the same spells for people in VI and X, but it seemed far easier in XII, and the former two still had unique abilities for each character.
I still haven't played it, but Final Fantasy XII International Zodiac Job System (ironically enough, only released in Japan) sort of solves this. You choose which job each character has. Those jobs change the license board, so that you can still choose how your character develops, but you won't end up with a team of characters who all are exactly the same.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:32 pm UTC

omgryebread wrote:
Quizatzhaderac wrote:I had a weird random thought about the Viera: are they like Jackals? Jackals have two sexes, but for all outward appearances they're all male. The Viera could have two sexes, but they all just have all female secondary sex characteristics.
I don't think we know anything about Viera male anatomy, but there definitely are males. They live separately and have little contact with female Viera, and are even more isolationist. One of the FFXII Ultimania books got into it a small bit. .

....

The Viera are a dying race, I presume?
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:39 pm UTC

Oh, that actually makes sense. At first, I was going to reply to Omgryebread that the books explanation was unsatisfying since the games will never show a male Viera, but then I realized my theory was even less likely to come up in the games.

I got to thinking about this because of Florem, which also doesn't make sense. Biological reasons? nope humans. Celibacy/ abstinence? Then you really shouldn't be letting a bunch of horny tourists visit. Also, how are people "from" there? especially Alternis.

The best I could think of, is that Florem started as a form of extreme feminism: Men can't stay long enough to accumulate power. With all the children raised without their biological fathers.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby omgryebread » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:49 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:The Viera are a dying race, I presume?
Well... I think it's wording was that they got together "when they needed to" or something similar. Mating might count.

However, they are dead at some point. Or at least gone from the region. There are no Viera in Tactics or Vagrant Story. Of course, there's only humans in those, the other races being wiped out (at least from the region the games take place in) presumably by the Cataclysm that takes place after St. Ajora is executed, so it's likely that's when the Viera disappeared as well.

Yeah, Florem doesn't make any sense. Even less so than the Viera (presumably when a Viera is born, they go to live with their same-sex parent.) Maybe before Florem got so materialist or whatever, male visitors were more restricted?
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby setzer777 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:27 am UTC

I thought the Viera ran on fanservice?
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Brosephini » Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:28 pm UTC

FFXIV launched their trailer for PS4 :D

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby setzer777 » Sun May 04, 2014 7:23 pm UTC

Zcorp:

Having gotten further in Bravely Default (nearing the end of the first world), I'm not sure I agree with you about the lack of viable jobs. Ninja, Pirate, Spiritmaster, Templar, Performer, Salvemaker, Spell Fencer, Thief, and Valkyrie all seem to have very useful abilities in their skillset. Black and White magic seem more useful when combined with Arcanist and Spiritmaster (not sure though, haven't explored those much yet), and almost all of the classes have useful support skills.

It does seem like a lot of the early classes feel underpowered as you get later ones - knight, monk, white/black/time mage, and summoner (unless you have a setup that eliminates MP issues).

Salvemaker and Ninja seem like the most overpowered so far. The former can basically replace all magic if you keep enough components in stock and the latter can dodge-tank any physical enemy.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Zcorp » Sun May 04, 2014 11:59 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:Zcorp:
Having gotten further in Bravely Default (nearing the end of the first world), I'm not sure I agree with you about the lack of viable jobs. Ninja, Pirate, Spiritmaster, Templar, Performer, Salvemaker, Spell Fencer, Thief, and Valkyrie all seem to have very useful abilities in their skillset. Black and White magic seem more useful when combined with Arcanist and Spiritmaster (not sure though, haven't explored those much yet), and almost all of the classes have useful support skills.

What aspects of Spell Fencer, Templar or Valkyrie are you finding to be valuable? Performer is interesting and makes for a fun class if you build the party comp around using it. Of that the list here just Ninja, Pirate, Thief and Salvemaker would I consider viable, and for much of the game the Salvemaker breaks just about every combat, until the end of the game where there are easier ways to do more damage and because of the massive amount of damage output plus life drain abilities healing becomes mostly unnecessary.

The only thing good about Spell Fencer is Phantom Weapon, which is the most powerful passive in the game by far. Pirate + Phantom Weapon is silly, it removes all the negative aspects of their Axe and allows them to easily hit weaknesses with the highest damaging weapons with a job that has large str growth, while also full healing themselves with drain. Best magic user is the class with the lowest Int, good stuff...

Salvemaker and Ninja seem like the most overpowered so far. The former can basically replace all magic if you keep enough components in stock and the latter can dodge-tank any physical enemy.

Yeah, Ninja's damage starts to lose out to other classes soon, thief and pirate mostly, but their dodging allows you to trivialize so many fights, like all the dragons.

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby setzer777 » Mon May 05, 2014 12:21 am UTC

Spell Fencer plus jump lets you hit 9999 pretty early in the game against enemies with weaknesses (I've also read that you can stack elemental weaknesses with Ranger abilities for huge damage multipliers). With a performer feeding them BP a templar can keep rampart up on everyone almost constantly. Having someone suicide with memento can trivialize mp costs and allow you to spam the most expensive spells.

This might just be the dragons, but I found the Spiritmaster's element ward pretty useful at fending off their breath attacks (without resorting to a four ninja team).

Something I want to experiment with more is putting as many BP generating skills on a performer and having them spam One More for You on the rest of the team.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Zcorp » Mon May 05, 2014 6:29 am UTC

setzer777 wrote:Spell Fencer plus jump lets you hit 9999 pretty early in the game against enemies with weaknesses (I've also read that you can stack elemental weaknesses with Ranger abilities for huge damage multipliers).

At the cost of two attacks, around the same time my thieves or ninja's were doing more than 5k per action.

With a performer feeding them BP a templar can keep rampart up on everyone almost constantly.

By which you mean half the time. If you devout half your party to it and nothing else.

This might just be the dragons, but I found the Spiritmaster's element ward pretty useful at fending off their breath attacks (without resorting to a four ninja team).
It is useful other places, but largely unnecessary as a fully offensive team kills nearly everything before they get to act with 3 braves t1, or 6 actions in two turns after 3 defaults, including most boss fights. Unless you are going to be 1 shot enemy actions you heal to full with drain, or reduce magic damage with skull bash. Pirates greatly outshine Spiritmaster's for defensive capabilities for the cost. while also providing extremely effective offensive ones.

Most of the problem relating to actions that cost BP is they aren't about comparably powerful to the same number of actions. Spiritmaster's half elemental damage for 3 actions. Pirate's reduce it by 25%, which is sufficient in every fight I can recall (but its been a while), while also getting that attack plus 2 other actions.

Actions that cost 1BP should be at least as powerful as 2 actions and probably more as it removes versatility, and with the exception of Cresent Moon and the Jumps (which gets beat by many things as the game progresses) I can't recall one that is. Cresent moon of course is only more powerful in some situations, and as your attacks start to do over 5k jump does less damage.

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby setzer777 » Mon May 05, 2014 12:22 pm UTC

I think the main use of a lot of the BP costing skills is to use them as your fourth attack after defaulting. Of course the recovery is longer, but if you're trying to do as much damage while under a temporary buff it can be worth it.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Zcorp » Mon May 05, 2014 8:23 pm UTC

This prevents you from getting 6 actions in 2 turns though. That's a really steep cost.

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby setzer777 » Mon May 05, 2014 9:03 pm UTC

Just out of curiosity, which jobs would you consider useful in Bravely Default, and which would you consider useful in FFT (as main class or secondary skill, not counting support abilities) ?

To my recollection (setting aside special classes, dark knight, and calculator), the only useful classes in FFT were Ninja, Chemist, Black and Time Mages (situational), Dragoon, Monk, and Samurai (if you got the best katanas and then used save-scumming to avoid breakage).

Meanwhile Archer, Knight, Summoner, White Mage, Geomancer, Mystic, and Orator* all seemed underpowered. I never got Dancers, Bards, or Onion Knights, but everything I read suggested that the first was OP and the other two were UP.

*Except for long-term stat twerking to achieve stuff well past what's needed to easily defeat every challenge in the main game.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby KrytenKoro » Mon May 05, 2014 10:04 pm UTC

I still haven't played it, but Final Fantasy XII International Zodiac Job System (ironically enough, only released in Japan) sort of solves this. You choose which job each character has. Those jobs change the license board, so that you can still choose how your character develops, but you won't end up with a team of characters who all are exactly the same.

Honestly, I prefer the FFI/II/III/V-style, "create the character you want to use" system that the License Board acts as, especially since the characters don't become fully interchangeable until well into the endgame. I like being able to create a team of mages, rather than being told I have to keep one fighter with a huge sword on my team at all times.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Zcorp » Mon May 05, 2014 10:23 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:Just out of curiosity, which jobs would you consider useful in Bravely Default, and which would you consider useful in FFT (as main class or secondary skill, not counting support abilities) ?

I think one of the big differences between the two is that jobs in FFT generally got more powerful as you got to new ones, but many of the skills of the previous jobs were great sub-classes. While progressing most of the jobs of equal tier were about equal in power. Neither of these is as true in BD.

FFT: Squire for Ramza (doesn't really count), Knight, Monk, Samurai, Thief, Ninja, Geomancer, Dancer, Summoner, Black Mage, White Mage, Time Mage and Mime. 12/19, 63%

BD: White Mage (only if you can't self-heal), Black Mage (only as a sub with phantom weapon), Thief, Red Mage (only if you can't self-heal, and want your pirate/rdm doing your healing), Ninja, Pirate, Performer, Salve Maker, Spirit Master (better options but would still consider ok, main problem is they are largely determined by their sub-class, and if you need a whm this isn't a bad main but any decent non-combo comp doesn't need healing), Vampire. 10/24, 42%. Kinda, if I omitted Whm, Rdm and spirit master all party comps would be better in end game. Freelancer is worth mentioning for mimic, and Time mage for Hasten world, but both require specific party builds, and while they can be fun, are worse than simply all pirate/blm or even thief/ninja.

If we included support skills I'd have little to add from FFT but from BD I'd add: Knight, Spell Fencer, Ranger and Freelancer for Two-Handed, Phantom Weapon, Hawk eye & Precision and JP UP respectively. All, except Two-Handed, require significant investment in jobs that offer nothing of real value.

Some more jobs become fun and have synergy between other jobs but the sacrifice of 2 character to make 1 character valuable is way to significant in BD.

If we break it down by what is good for different parts of the game:

'Starting' jobs
FFT: Knight, Chemist, Black Mage, White Mage, Squire
BD: Free Lancer, White Mage.

Early access jobs
FFT: Knight, Black Mage, White Mage, Monk, Thief, Time Mage
BD: Thief, Free Lancer, White mage.

Mid access jobs
FFT: Knight, Black Mage, White Mage, Monk, Thief, Time Mage, Dragoon, Geomancer, Summoner,
BD: Thief, Red Mage, Dragoon (only kinda)

Late access jobs
FFT: Knight, Black Mage, White Mage, Monk, Time Mage, Geomancer, Summoner, Ninja, Samurai, Dancer
BD: Thief, White Mage, Red mage, Pirate, Ninja, Salve-Maker, Performer, Black Mage (sub only), time mage (hasten world party comps only)

End game access jobs
FFT: Knight, Calculator (or the 3 mages if you exclude this), Knight, Ninja, Samurai, Summoner, Dancer, Monk, Mime, Dark Knight (in new versions of the game), Gemoancer (sub only)
BD: Thief, Pirate, Performer combo only, Ninja, White Mage, Black Mage (sub only), time mage (hasten world party comps only), vampire, Red Mage (sub only, but black mage is generally better for drain, if everyone can self-heal), spirit-master, free lancer (mimic combos)


Meanwhile Archer, Knight, Summoner, White Mage, Geomancer, Mystic, and Orator* all seemed underpowered. I never got Dancers, Bards, or Onion Knights, but everything I read suggested that the first was OP and the other two were UP.

As HP comes from armor, knights could be really powerful for much of the game against human enemies. The larger problem is that you want to be getting JP for other jobs instead of staying around on knight to long, despite how good they are for most of the game, you want to be getting JP for other jobs. If you don't need JP for other jobs staying as Knight is almost always the best option for physical attackers. They also get access to the best weapons and armor.

I always found gemoancers to be great. They have the best status effects and give useful range attacks to your melee classes, throwing their counter on a mage is great as well if we were including support skills.

Why did you find summoners underpowered?

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby setzer777 » Mon May 05, 2014 10:44 pm UTC

I suppose the support summons were useful, the offensive summons were so slow that the fast casting ability was mandatory unless you wanted enemies moving out of the way half the time.

With knights I'd usually just grab the shield and heavy armor abilities and put those on other classes. Their active abilities seemed mostly useless (except maybe the archer break gimmick). I suppose Geomancers were alright if you were limiting yourself to generic classes - to me their abilities mostly felt like much weaker versions of sword magic.

Also, I think it's a mark against FFT that Agrias, Cid, Meliadoul, Balthier, Beowulf, and Ramza were overpowered while Rafa and Malak were trash. Almost every special character was either ridiculously overpowered or underpowered.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Zcorp » Mon May 05, 2014 10:49 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:Also, I think it's a mark against FFT that Agrias, Cid, Meliadoul, Balthier, Beowulf, and Ramza were overpowered while Rafa and Malak were trash. Almost every special character was either ridiculously overpowered or underpowered.

Yup, a huge one. You could basically solo the rest of the game with Cid once you get him. The balance of their special characters was pretty terrible, even if their general unit job balance is one of the best in any TBS.

Edit:
Or really any turn based game. Etrian Odysseys is the only thing kinda close that I can think of. FF9 or 6 maybe. Chrono Trigger was decently balanced between characters.

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:34 pm UTC

So I'm deep into lightning returns, final day actually. I have a question about those archangel things, how does one defend against their ZOMG attack? It keeps one-shotting me with heavy guard three up.
EDIT - I found a cheesy solution: I schema setup with 100% magic damage reduction (and 0% attack power).
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby mosc » Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:29 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:Chrono Trigger was decently balanced between characters.

...until you realized that the combination techs of only a couple of pairings were clearly better than the rest.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:10 am UTC

Beat FFXIII-3.

The finite time thing took a little getting used to, I felt rushed at first, then had a few days where I didn't have anything to do. One can waste game time in a small amount of real time easily enough by going to an inn, but I had trained myself to conserve time. To someone starting the game I'd advise taking the time to do side quests first.

There's also a neat mechanic where there's a finite number of most monsters invoked in random encounters. At first this means that easier encounters give way to harder one, eventually this makes some areas safe.
Spoiler:
Turns out healing magic doesn't kill p-zombies.

I liked the twist with Lumina, both satisfying and surprising.

I also liked Bhunivelze's characterization: Inhuman, but not the flat omnicidal demon of some games.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby setzer777 » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:00 pm UTC

That's Bhunivelze, you blasphemer.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:37 pm UTC

So, one thing I've wanted since the nineties was a FFVII after years game. For some reason I feel like discussing my suggested party of PCs for the game.

Phan Strife The heir to heroes - 19, male: Cloud and Tifa's child. Tends to think the worst of the world at large but once he accepts someone they're family to him. He was raised with the kind of paranoia that's only justified when your home-town is burnt down and replaced with actors; he actually expected the world to be in peril and to have to personally deal with it.

Dysnomia <last name> The gardener of Midgar- Female, 20: Clone of Arieth, made from a sample made when Areith was captured in MidGar. After Shinra collapsed one of the researchers adopted her. She and her apprentices are the only ones capable to growing anything in Midgar, which makes her something of a local celebrity. Largely the same personality as Areith.

Loeien <last name> The unwilling destroyer- Female, 27: Sephiroth's illegitimate daughter from Costa del Sol. Wants to be a decent person but has a violent nature and empathy comes slowly to her. Has had difficulties fitting in and is slow to believe she's accepted. Reacts overly violently when scared.

Nanaki (Red XII) Long lived cat thingy//i] - Male, a lot: More self-assured than in the original game. A stabilizer of the group, having the highest maturity/angst ratio.

Yuffie Kisaragi [i]The ascension of Wutai
- Female, 33: Tries to act dignified now, emphasis on "tries".

Vincent Valentine Angsty fake vampire - Male, a lot: Same spiel, he just wakes up for to bring it to a new decade.

Marlene Wallace Agent of Gaia - Female, little kid+21: Peruses most things enthusiastically, especially protecting the planet and acquiring knowledge (The money for her schooling paid off). Tends to consider explosives as the application of politics.
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Mishrak » Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:56 pm UTC

I'm not sure if it's the right place to talk about it or not, but it seems to be. Has anyone here played the Brave New World mod for FF6? It's been one of the more rewarding experiences in an rpg for me of late, and honestly, I'm having hard time putting it down despite playing through it start to finish twice in a row.

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Zcorp » Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:26 am UTC

Is there list somewhere that contains all of the changes?

What about it is interesting enough that you want to play it 3 times in a row? For me RPG end up being about exploring the progression system and the story. Once you've done that my interest in them generally dies. Are you changing party comps each time?

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Mishrak » Thu Nov 20, 2014 3:46 am UTC

The short answer is Here.

The long answer is Here.

Basically the mod makes the game incredibly replayable and super fun. It fixes what was broken and makes the game far deeper than Square ever could have imagined.

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Zcorp » Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:20 am UTC

Here is a more indepth readme from the developer for anyone interested.

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Mishrak » Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:38 pm UTC

Yep! Nice find. I didn't realize Synchysi had that hosted on a public link. That's included in the download of the rom.

The documentation is huge, and it's quite a read, which is why I summarized it in that thread. It's a really interesting dynamic when each character has unique roles and aren't just generic Ultima casters. I was always sad that the game morphed into that as soon as you got the Paladin shield. So to have each character with a serious amount of depth and generally several different directions you can build them in is really refreshing. Plus the bosses are actually not pushovers now; some of them are downright scary.

I haven't tried all the setups that I want to yet, which is why my third playthrough will be totally different than my first two.

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Zcorp » Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:51 pm UTC

I'm interested to learn more about the design choices relating to the 'unlockme' but I won't find the time to play this. Is it a common thing to actively hide and then reward players with game information on completion within the community that works on projects like this?

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Mishrak » Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:48 pm UTC

Not common at all. Of the other mods I've played there (FFT 1.3, MMX Hard Type), I have not seen similar philosophies among those modders. Having said that, what's in the Unlockme is really not that important to the first time experience of Brave New World.

Everything you need to know is in the Readme, or the wiki, or the other files packaged with the mod outside of the Unlockme. What's in the Unlockme is generally for people who want to play the game at a higher level and would essentially spoil a first time play through. Despite that, however, anyone who spends any length of time asking questions of BTB on the ID forum or in the chat there would probably be able to glean a lot of what's in the unlockme from him. There are some details he will never share with anyone (not even in the Unlockme) but he's quite willing to answer questions and talk about his game.

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby mosc » Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:11 pm UTC

That looks very interesting. Now I just have to figure out a way to play it on an iphone...

and shut up square. I already bought the game at least 4 times (rummages through anchient wreckage for this prized GBA cartridge)
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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Mishrak » Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:15 pm UTC

I can't remember. Can you do SNES emulation on iOS? If so, you could definitely play it.

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Zcorp » Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:24 am UTC

Mishrak wrote:Not common at all. Of the other mods I've played there (FFT 1.3, MMX Hard Type), I have not seen similar philosophies among those modders. Having said that, what's in the Unlockme is really not that important to the first time experience of Brave New World.
It isn't about it being important to beating the game. For me I'm curious to see if there is anything to learn from the changes in the mod. However, the giant community built around walkthroughs sprung up because many players prefer to not miss anything, want to know and plan for the AI and other aspects of fights, instead of learning it through trial and error or just know little details like boss HP etc etc.

My interest in a fairly rare one, but the community that uses walkthroughs to get greater enjoyment out of the games they play is a very large one. To actively alienate these people is a weird choice, especially for a game like FF6 where there is so much potential to miss a valuable treasure chest and the games ability to communicate mechanics to the player is so poor.

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Mishrak » Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:43 am UTC

There's no active attempt to alienate anyone. Really the unlockme stemmed from BTB's desire to document /everything/ he was doing in the game. There were some aspects he wanted to leave an area of mystery around rather than reveal everything up front and so the unlockme was born. Like I said before though, if you wanted to discuss it on those forums and get lots of detail, then all you would have to do is ask people there.

It's important to note: they made this game because they wanted to make it. If someone doesn't want to play the game because they don't have every single detail (including lots of very unimportant ones in the unlockme in regards to a normal playthrough) in front of them from the start, then really they're missing out and it is seriously their loss.

The game is designed so that you won't miss anything significant. There's also a great detail more explanation within BNW than there ever was in Vanilla, and that doesn't even count the readme or the printme that's packaged.

Frankly I appreciated the mystery on my first run. For a game that's so worn out and so well documented and picked apart, the mystery brought to life a game I never thought I would enjoy so much again.

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Zcorp » Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:48 am UTC

Mishrak wrote:if you wanted to discuss it on those forums and get lots of detail, then all you would have to do is ask people there.

I don't want to.

There's no active attempt to alienate anyone. Really the unlockme stemmed from BTB's desire to document /everything/ he was doing in the game. There were some aspects he wanted to leave an area of mystery around rather than reveal everything up front and so the unlockme was born. Like I said before though,


They are actively hiding information that would increase the reach and retention of their work if it was more public. It's a weird choice, it's not a bad one nor is preventing that information from coming out a bad decision. Unless your goal is to increase reach and retention of the project.

Nevertheless the choice is one actively being made and one of the effects of that choice is alienating a large part of the potential community, but who knows maybe someone will do a comprehensive walkthrough soon and address this without help from the dev and the community will grow itself.

It's important to note: they made this game because they wanted to make it. If someone doesn't want to play the game because they don't have every single detail (including lots of very unimportant ones in the unlockme in regards to a normal playthrough) in front of them from the start, then really they're missing out and it is seriously their loss.

I'm not sure why you are getting defensive. Players don't feel like it is a loss to miss out on a experience they feel like they won't enjoy, so its really not their loss.

RPGs have moved away from a lot of the exploration aspects of the FF6 days largely due to players missing out on just this type of information. Many player's get annoyed or frustrated at various things that FF6 does (or in the incase of encounter design doesn't do, so of which were tech restricted). Take Mt. Kotlz, the Guardian is in one of the first treasure chests you see in the area. It is outside and there is a small trick to getting it. Some players learn here, and a few other places, that due to how the game is viewed that there are passageways that are hidden due to scenery. Others it frustrates them greatly that they can't reach the chest. The loss here isn't big for average player utility.

The loss is big for the Atlas Armlet. An item hidden not much further away from the Guardian. Its a decent relic, and can be purchased and IIRC stolen later into the game. Now some players will feel incredibly clever that they found this chest. Some players also won't mind the extra it encounters it takes to explore to find it, and most players won't mind the extra XP they gain through those encounters while exploring.

However, most players can't be trust to be particularly clever or observant while playing. Most players are not core explorers that also don't mind more fighting (in fact most players are collectors more than anything, making this even more punishing to them). Few players replay one game many times to find things they missed. I've met people who when they learned about things like the Atlas Armlet changed their opinion of the game, and sometimes to a significant degree. They often feel cheated, they often feel like the developer was intentionally trying to feel smarter than them (the reality of the developer intention is generally irrelevant) and sometimes they start to remember the entire experience they had with the game in a much more negative light. This is despite that you could get that item later in the game. They felt cheated for the time in which they didn't have it. The gains to the players who find the Atlas Armlet are fairly small, but when and if players who missed it find out about it (reading a walkthrough, watching a Let's play video) the loss of average utility is significant.

Not all games need to or should want to maximize average utility across all of their target demographic let alone even potential players, but there are ways to keep the gain to the core explorer or core ff6 player without the loss to everyone else. A cosmetic, a skit, a joke, a pretty view and various other things that don't modify the primary skill tested of the player are often used to great effect.

This is also one of the reasons why in RPG's you see much more guidance, often to the point of linear pathing on more recent games. Or toward crafting systems so you can drop components lots of different places and reward the behavior of different types of players without them feeling like they missed something by not doing something they don't like doing. Some are even quite happy to tell you how many hidden things exist for you to find.

RPG's in the vein of ff6 are the most punishing for many players as it requires encounters to explore and thus costs resources such as: hp, mana, gold if using consumables to replenish other resources, time and possibly a lot of time if they need to leave and area to go sleep or purchase more things and in some cases even give unwanted XP gains.

There is certainly a group of people that greatly enjoy all of that. There are core players to this genre that loved this aspect of FF6, they enjoyed blind exploring and either didn't mind the cost for the reward or didn't even view it as a cost. They just turned out to be a smaller number than those that don't enjoy it.

I was curious to see how this mod addressed this issue, among many others I was curious to learn more about. Are those chests still there? If some of them, which ones and why? South Figaro ones, Mt Kotlz ones, etc etc? Do they drop unique or rare items? If they can be purchased, how much earlier do you get the item in the chest before you can purchase it?

Now as this is a mod, I expected that it is largely catering to the dev's style of play and core players of FF6 itself. People who just generally and greatly enjoy the game and likely even do challenge runs (speed or difficulty), but at least the claim is that this is a general improvement to the game for even casual players. So it is weird to keep such information hidden.

Treasure and exploration in FF6 aren't the only things that have evolved since its time, encounter types and encounter communication are another large one (both in game and using out of game resources to get in-game knowledge). I was curious how all of these were addressed. And it seems that they were not, and in fact it seems like some of the valuable innovations in this area (some of which simply can't be done in a FF6 mod) aren't being utilized but are also actively being prevented. This is action that alienates a large group of potential players if the dev is aware of it or not.

From what I can tell exploration is further punished in this game, especially early (up through Zozo, unless you get espers earlier now) as using Espers for growth is a large part of what this mod adds. So many players will want to carefully watch their XP gains (thus less exploration, using something to avoid or reduce random encounters, if that was added, or using the No Xp relics mentioned in the readme) but also be sufficiently leveled to not make boss fights overly difficult. So again, it is particularly weird that information on exploration and enemy behavior or stats is being kept secret.

Frankly I appreciated the mystery on my first run. For a game that's so worn out and so well documented and picked apart, the mystery brought to life a game I never thought I would enjoy so much again.

Many players will, especially those who enjoy playing a RPG multiple times as they can utilize the information they gained. Player's like yourself might view first run throughs of such games as scouting, you just aren't most players, and as this mod is seemingly trying to reach a wider audience (including first time ff6 players) it is weird that the dev would keep so much secret.

All of this is part of the reason for the rise of the walkthrough and often how projects aimed at more core players are left to indie groups or modders, but even most of those projects are very open with information.

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Mishrak » Sat Nov 22, 2014 6:19 am UTC

Zcorp wrote:Nevertheless the choice is one actively being made and one of the effects of that choice is alienating a large part of the potential community, but who knows maybe someone will do a comprehensive walkthrough soon and address this without help from the dev and the community will grow itself.

I think you're overreacting by a rather far margin. The unlockme is bonus material at best. That's it. It's unimportant to playing the game.

Zcorp wrote:RPGs have moved away from a lot of the exploration aspects of the FF6 days largely due to players missing out on just this type of information. Many player's get annoyed or frustrated at various things that FF6 does (or in the incase of encounter design doesn't do, so of which were tech restricted). Take Mt. Kotlz, the Guardian is in one of the first treasure chests you see in the area. It is outside and there is a small trick to getting it. Some players learn here, and a few other places, that due to how the game is viewed that there are passageways that are hidden due to scenery. Others it frustrates them greatly that they can't reach the chest. The loss here isn't big for average player utility.

The loss is big for the Atlas Armlet. An item hidden not much further away from the Guardian. Its a decent relic, and can be purchased and IIRC stolen later into the game. Now some players will feel incredibly clever that they found this chest. Some players also won't mind the extra it encounters it takes to explore to find it, and most players won't mind the extra XP they gain through those encounters while exploring.

If you've played FF6 you'll know where those hidden items are probably. If you haven't, you'll have to think and explore. Sorry, gotta use that brain.

Zcorp wrote:However, most players can't be trust to be particularly clever or observant while playing. Most players are not core explorers that also don't mind more fighting (in fact most players are collectors more than anything, making this even more punishing to them). Few players replay one game many times to find things they missed. I've met people who when they learned about things like the Atlas Armlet changed their opinion of the game, and sometimes to a significant degree. They often feel cheated, they often feel like the developer was intentionally trying to feel smarter than them (the reality of the developer intention is generally irrelevant) and sometimes they start to remember the entire experience they had with the game in a much more negative light. This is despite that you could get that item later in the game. They felt cheated for the time in which they didn't have it. The gains to the players who find the Atlas Armlet are fairly small, but when and if players who missed it find out about it (reading a walkthrough, watching a Let's play video) the loss of average utility is significant.

You can authoritatively speak for most players? Really?

Zcorp wrote:Not all games need to or should want to maximize average utility across all of their target demographic let alone even potential players, but there are ways to keep the gain to the core explorer or core ff6 player without the loss to everyone else. A cosmetic, a skit, a joke, a pretty view and various other things that don't modify the primary skill tested of the player are often used to great effect.

This is also one of the reasons why in RPG's you see much more guidance, often to the point of linear pathing on more recent games. Or toward crafting systems so you can drop components lots of different places and reward the behavior of different types of players without them feeling like they missed something by not doing something they don't like doing. Some are even quite happy to tell you how many hidden things exist for you to find.

Gotta use that brain thing again. The game tells you what you need to know but it's not gonna hold your hand with a minimap and ! and ? over npcs heads.

Zcorp wrote:I was curious to see how this mod addressed this issue, among many others I was curious to learn more about. Are those chests still there? If some of them, which ones and why? South Figaro ones, Mt Kotlz ones, etc etc? Do they drop unique or rare items? If they can be purchased, how much earlier do you get the item in the chest before you can purchase it?

The unlockme doesn't tell you this. You'd have to actually play the game to learn what you want there. I can assure you that the item layout is designed so it's incredibly hard to miss rare and unique items. Most of the "missable" items in the game are purchasable later on. And items locations are generally identical to where they were in Vanilla. Not necessarily the same item, but there's an item in the same location if that makes sense.

Zcorp wrote:Now as this is a mod, I expected that it is largely catering to the dev's style of play and core players of FF6 itself. People who just generally and greatly enjoy the game and likely even do challenge runs (speed or difficulty), but at least the claim is that this is a general improvement to the game for even casual players. So it is weird to keep such information hidden.

The stuff that's hidden is bonus material, easter eggs, anecdotes and unimportant trivia topics. There is a massive list of information via the Readme, the Wiki, the Forum and the other stuff packaged with it. I'll challenge you to find another mod with as much information and resources available as BNW.

Zcorp wrote:Treasure and exploration in FF6 aren't the only things that have evolved since its time, encounter types and encounter communication are another large one (both in game and using out of game resources to get in-game knowledge). I was curious how all of these were addressed. And it seems that they were not, and in fact it seems like some of the valuable innovations in this area (some of which simply can't be done in a FF6 mod) aren't being utilized but are also actively being prevented. This is action that alienates a large group of potential players if the dev is aware of it or not.

From what I can tell exploration is further punished in this game, especially early (up through Zozo, unless you get espers earlier now) as using Espers for growth is a large part of what this mod adds. So many players will want to carefully watch their XP gains (thus less exploration, using something to avoid or reduce random encounters, if that was added, or using the No Xp relics mentioned in the readme) but also be sufficiently leveled to not make boss fights overly difficult. So again, it is particularly weird that information on exploration and enemy behavior or stats is being kept secret.

The fights are fun to learn and beat and it's part of the challenge. All enemy scripts have been redone from scratch basically. That information isn't even in the unlockme and it's pretty bizarre that you would want every single detail about enemy scripts at all. Talk about ruining the challenge.

Zcorp wrote:All of this is part of the reason for the rise of the walkthrough and often how projects aimed at more core players are left to indie groups or modders, but even most of those projects are very open with information.


The project is aimed at people who wanted FF6 in a non-buggy, well balanced, challenging and rewarding format. While BNW isn't a difficulty patch, you do actually have to think to succeed. You can't just hold down A to win anymore. It will punish vanilla habits pretty hard just by virtue of being balanced.

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Zcorp » Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:53 am UTC

Mishrak wrote:I think you're overreacting by a rather far margin. The unlockme is bonus material at best. That's it. It's unimportant to playing the game.

?? I think you are missing the point.
I'm curious to get a greater understanding of changes to monster attributes and behavior. As well as a couple other things that the mod may or may not touch. I'm interested to see if it did touch them and how.

I supposed I assumed that the unlockme contains that information, and what you have said would lead me to believe it does. If it doesn't, the point isn't to gain access to the unlockme but instead that information. The unlockme is only of interest if it contains it.

If you've played FF6 you'll know where those hidden items are probably. If you haven't, you'll have to think and explore. Sorry, gotta use that brain.
Gotta use that brain thing again. The game tells you what you need to know but it's not gonna hold your hand with a minimap and ! and ? over npcs heads.

You are again missing the point.

I strongly believe that good game play requires the player to learn and grow. I believe that games are defined by asking the player to display skill, not simply by interacting. Infact I think it is the primary distinction that the industry is failing to make right now between an interactive experience and a game. To the detriment of both the players and the industry.

I'm not interested in playing this mod, I was interested in learning more about it. That I can't, that the developer has decided to keep secret the information that interested me about this project secret (read, the design choices in encounters and exploration, and not even in depth, just basic walkthrough level information) is disappointing to me.

But my interest is largely irrelevant, my comment was aimed at the choice to keep so much information locked down..As it will greatly decrease the reach and retention of the mod. A mod that seems to be trying to capture a larger market than core players. I could be wrong about the intent, in which case the lack of information can be a driving factor for a niche of players. If it does wish to capture a larger group, it is a weird choice.


You can authoritatively speak for most players? Really?

I can speak with accuracy about many aspects of the behavior of people. Especially when it comes to game play. If that is something you value in someone speaking with about a subject, then yes, I can speak authoritatively about it.

The unlockme doesn't tell you this. You'd have to actually play the game to learn what you want there. I can assure you that the item layout is designed so it's incredibly hard to miss rare and unique items. Most of the "missable" items in the game are purchasable later on. And items locations are generally identical to where they were in Vanilla. Not necessarily the same item, but there's an item in the same location if that makes sense.

Ok, that's unfortunate but doesn't change my interest in that information. I assumed when you said "Really the unlockme stemmed from BTB's desire to document /everything/ he was doing in the game. " it would include information such as this.

The fights are fun to learn and beat and it's part of the challenge. All enemy scripts have been redone from scratch basically. That information isn't even in the unlockme and it's pretty bizarre that you would want every single detail about enemy scripts at all. Talk about ruining the challenge.

Again, I'm not interested in playing it, I'm interested in learning more about it. Which I don't have the time or interest to do by playing it.

And even if I was interested in the information to either easily overcome the challenges or if they are deep enough that they require strategy to overcome to want to think about it before hand it wouldn't be bizarre. Most players want that. Most players (especially American ones) aren't interested in learning AI scripts and forming strategy they are interested in executing properly. Which is again why the industry is filled with just people drinking in all of that information, entire businesses are dedicated to just doing that.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/
http://www.ign.com/wikis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne_QhvZuQtc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrnMDV73xHs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2cychm1HCY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcoCqQ1v2Mc

I can give you countless examples. I value and respect the players who want to do more thinking, I also count myself among them. Yet none of that is related to the point. Which remains to be that it is a weird choice to hide this information if you want to increase the popularity of the mod and that I was interested to learn about the design choices made despite that I'll not be playing it.

The project is aimed at people who wanted FF6 in a non-buggy, well balanced, challenging and rewarding format. While BNW isn't a difficulty patch, you do actually have to think to succeed. You can't just hold down A to win anymore. It will punish vanilla habits pretty hard just by virtue of being balanced.

All of that sounds good, so again my interests lies with the details, in not only enemy behavior but aspects of exploration that were problematic to FF6 (another example being the chests that change in the WoR if you skipped them during the WoB, or just got them later in WoB). FF6 had lots of problems, I'm curious which ones were fixed and how.
Last edited by Zcorp on Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:43 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Mishrak » Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:09 am UTC

Sorry, but I don't have the energy to read your walls of text anymore. You're the one who's failing to see my point, so time time to move on.

Frankly I just wanted to plug BNW. Not get in a semantics debate about nonsense with you.
Last edited by Mishrak on Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:16 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Zcorp » Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:11 am UTC

Mishrak wrote:Sorry, but I don't have the energy to read your walls of text anymore. You're the one who's failing to see my point, so time time to move on.

Reading is hard, I understand.
Gotta use that brain thing again.

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Mishrak » Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:17 am UTC

Reported. Nice job derailing the thread.

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Re: Final Fantasy Omnithread - All FF, all the time.

Postby Siyrinx » Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:39 am UTC

I'm told that you're not interested in coming to the home of the mod and talking about this, so I created an account here to talk about it. I'm Advent from the Insane Difficulty boards, and while I'm not the mod's creator, I can pretty much answer most of not all of these questions myself (as can Mishrak, but that's another conversation for another day).

Zcorp wrote:I'm curious to get a greater understanding of changes to monster attributes and behavior. As well as a couple other things that the mod may or may not touch. I'm interested to see if it did touch them and how.


No, he's not missing the point as much as you seem to think. The problem is that giving you what you're asking for means making it readily available for others. Now, being capable of speaking authoritatively for others, surely you understand that the majority of people are, in fact, idiots. Players are people, so it stands that most players would be idiots as well. Most players would also not be playing Brave New World or any other romhack in existence. Though romhacking has been gaining popularity, it's still pretty niche.

Why do I bring this up? Because if what you were asking for were to be made readily available, the majority of Brave New World's playerbase would use it and end up spoiling the experience for themselves. This is something that you probably know already, but I just wanted to state it for the record.

Why should anyone type up all that information into one nice, neat, little document for one person to use? It boggles the mind, especially when you consider how lengthy it would have to be. Why not just open it up in an editor instead? Sure, you wouldn't get all of the information, but you'd still get quite a bit.

Zcorp wrote:I supposed I assumed that the unlockme contains that information, and what you have said would lead me to believe it does. If it doesn't, the point isn't to gain access to the unlockme but instead that information. The unlockme is only of interest if it contains it.


Then it is of little interest to you. There is no document freely available that details every last script change.

Zcorp wrote:I'm not interested in playing this mod, I was interested in learning more about it. That I can't, that the developer has decided to keep secret the information that interested me about this project secret (read, the design choices in encounters and exploration, and not even in depth, just basic walkthrough level information) is disappointing to me.


What you are asking for is not "basic walkthrough level" information. Unless, of course, I'm misunderstanding. I've seen you ask for script changes and the like. The Printme has a ton of information in and of itself.

The design choices are laid out pretty tidily in the readme, so what exactly is it that you want?

Zcorp wrote:But my interest is largely irrelevant, my comment was aimed at the choice to keep so much information locked down..As it will greatly decrease the reach and retention of the mod. A mod that seems to be trying to capture a larger market than core players. I could be wrong about the intent, in which case the lack of information can be a driving factor for a niche of players. If it does wish to capture a larger group, it is a weird choice.


Again, I'm going to point to the Printme here. There is a ton of information in there, more than enough to satisfy the vast majority of players. There is no wide-reaching information blackout regarding Brave New World like you seem to be trying to make it out to be.

Now, that being said, there are a few secrets that you won't find anywhere, but I can count them all on one hand, developer backdoors included.

Zcorp wrote:Most players want that. Most players (especially American ones) aren't interested in learning AI scripts and forming strategy they are interested in executing properly. Which is again why the industry is filled with just people drinking in all of that information, entire businesses are dedicated to just doing that.


I'm not sure if that was a fumbled attempt at a veiled jab at Americans, but I think you're a little bit smarter than that, plus the context defies that, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Sites such as these are a double-edged sword, though. Yes, you do get a veritable treasure trove of information, but you also lose something along the way. There's a feeling of wonder and amazement when you delve into a truly good game for the first time without knowing anything about it. It's why some people such as myself, when looking forward to a game, will shut out all trailers and media about a given game that doesn't have to do with the release date. It's just far more enjoyable.

Zcorp wrote:Which remains to be that it is a weird choice to hide this information if you want to increase the popularity of the mod and that I was interested to learn about the design choices made despite that I'll not be playing it.


Once again, there is nowhere near as much information being held from you as you seem to believe.

Zcorp wrote:All of that sounds good, so again my interests lies with the details, in not only player behavior but aspects of exploration that were problematic to FF6 (another example being the chests that change in the WoR if you skipped them during the WoB, or just got them later in WoB). FF6 had lots of problems, I'm curious which ones were fixed and how.


Have you even read the readme?
Last edited by Siyrinx on Sun Nov 23, 2014 4:16 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.


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