Dota 2 : Dota Harder

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OklahomaJoe
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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby OklahomaJoe » Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:15 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:
Will wrote:(Though, grain of salt: I've played Sven like three times, and did MISERABLY every time.)


I have like 85% win rate with the guy.

The stun is not the only factor in his usefulness at ganking, the level 1 cry gives godly MS and allows you and your friend to chase or run effectively.


Sven's a top-tier pick in my opinion, and isn't difficult to play. You'll hear people claim he's easy to kite, but I don't see how it's any easier to kite him over Naix or other popular melee picks; Naix is just popular because he gets a free supercharged BKB (which is a dumb design decision, IMO.)

Soul Ring is disgustingly good on Sven; just spam your stun every time Soul Ring's off cooldown. It's up to 325 unavoidable damage, and it's just as good at obliterating creeps as it is at obliterating heroes.

As far as as Arcane Boots and whatnot go, that's kind of the point - maybe the hero's balanced in lane, but the second it switches to a more active, more team-oriented style of play, the major balancing factor for them stops being relevant. Chaos Knight and Slark are, in my mind, perfect examples of this - two heroes with disgustingly good skills that are largely balanced by their lousy mana pools. Whether or not they're overpowered is up to debate (CK probably isn't, Slark probably is), but it does mean that they can pretty much start spamming their (very, very strong) spells as soon as they have teammates to refuel them and/or simple stat-boosters like bracers or drums.

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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Diadem » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:20 am UTC

I have to say, Valve really raised the bar when it comes to community interaction. The feature to watch live games, including pro level tournaments, with live commentary, all from within the game, is just awesome. They really engage their community.

The Starcraft II interface suddenly feels quaint and antiquated.
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OklahomaJoe
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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby OklahomaJoe » Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:40 am UTC

Diadem wrote:I have to say, Valve really raised the bar when it comes to community interaction. The feature to watch live games, including pro level tournaments, with live commentary, all from within the game, is just awesome. They really engage their community.

The Starcraft II interface suddenly feels quaint and antiquated.


Valve could learn some lessons from both Riot and Blizzard when it comes to making a good UI, and they definitely need to work on the precision of unit selection and stuff.

But, yeah - their spectator support is top notch and makes everyone else's look like kiddie stuff. Don't forget the tournament ticket system - every ticket bought supports that tournament, giving them the revenue they'll need to continue sponsoring tournaments.

Also, pennants. Fantastic way of supporting your favorite teams.

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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Zcorp » Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:56 am UTC

OklahomaJoe wrote:Sven's a top-tier pick in my opinion, and isn't difficult to play.

Poor Sockshka
http://i.imgur.com/7njKA2g.gif
You'll hear people claim he's easy to kite, but I don't see how it's any easier to kite him over Naix or other popular melee picks; Naix is just popular because he gets a free supercharged BKB (which is a dumb design decision, IMO.)
He is easier to kite over Naix because of the BKB to remove things like slows.

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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby OklahomaJoe » Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:49 am UTC

Zcorp wrote:
OklahomaJoe wrote:Sven's a top-tier pick in my opinion, and isn't difficult to play.

Poor Sockshka
http://i.imgur.com/7njKA2g.gif
You'll hear people claim he's easy to kite, but I don't see how it's any easier to kite him over Naix or other popular melee picks; Naix is just popular because he gets a free supercharged BKB (which is a dumb design decision, IMO.)
He is easier to kite over Naix because of the BKB to remove things like slows.


I feel that's balanced out by the fact that the only thing Sven needs is a BKB; he already gets a frankly absurd amount of damage from his ulti and movement speed from his warcry. You don't even need phase+drums on him like you do Naix. I guess Sven's BKB technically scales poorly, though, but everyone's BKB sucks compared to Naix's fucking ridiculous Rage skill (uptime on dat shit be cray cray.)

I'm wondering how long it'll take Storm Spirit to receive the Invoker treatment after TI3; his base damage doesn't need to be cut off at the knees, but I definitely think Ball Lightning needs its base mana cost increased significantly, and probably his Q (I forget the name), too. At least OD falls off after he's done pooping on whoever got sent mid versus him.

EDIT: I really like The International except when it makes people do and say stupid shit like Spectre is a good hero.

No, Spectre is a complete garbage hero that's only used in pro when they feel they can guarantee her the 35,000 gold she'll need to reach the same level of performance of almost literally any other carry with half that much gold. I mean, sure, she's immortal and powerful and extremely strong when she's 4-6 slotted, but if you let that happen, you're either retarded, or the enemy team outdrafted/outplayed you to let her reach that point.

What I don't get is the utter lack of Warlock picks. His ultimate is probably in the running for top three most overpowered ultimates in the game (let alone the ultimates that are simply "really good"), and unlike almost every other major support-type hero, he scales really well due to his scepter upgrade and refresher orb, and how the two interact. One golem can be handled with a Diffusal Blade. Two golems can be kept under control by a Diffusal Blade. Four golems can't be stopped, assuming we're talking about an actual teamfight. You can kill one instantly with Diffusal Blade (hope you weren't planning on using it for anything else!), but that still means three golems each with a 50 dmg/sec Radiance aura and a 60% chance of swinging for an extra 200 magic damage on each swing.

Maybe it's because OD is so popular; his orb does bonus damage to summons, so maybe that's enough of a threat. Warlock himself isn't really overpowered, but his ultimate surely is.

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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby EmptySet » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:32 am UTC

OklahomaJoe wrote:What I don't get is the utter lack of Warlock picks. His ultimate is probably in the running for top three most overpowered ultimates in the game (let alone the ultimates that are simply "really good"), and unlike almost every other major support-type hero, he scales really well due to his scepter upgrade and refresher orb, and how the two interact. One golem can be handled with a Diffusal Blade. Two golems can be kept under control by a Diffusal Blade. Four golems can't be stopped, assuming we're talking about an actual teamfight. You can kill one instantly with Diffusal Blade (hope you weren't planning on using it for anything else!), but that still means three golems each with a 50 dmg/sec Radiance aura and a 60% chance of swinging for an extra 200 magic damage on each swing.

Maybe it's because OD is so popular; his orb does bonus damage to summons, so maybe that's enough of a threat. Warlock himself isn't really overpowered, but his ultimate surely is.


I think the main problem is actually that having Refresher and Scepter requires 9500+ gold on a support who isn't particularly hard to kill, and can only be used once every three minutes. Generally you're better off putting that kind of farm into a carry. Besides, I wouldn't exactly say four golems are unstoppable. They can be killed relatively quickly late-game especially by certain heroes (eg. Gyro with Flak Cannon), they're not magic immune so they'll suffer from AoE spells, and there are common items like Pipe and BKB which reduce their damage significantly.

You can also compare Chaotic Offering with other initiation spells - for example, the disable from Ravage lasts more than three times as long as that from CO, has a larger radius, and deals 450 damage instantly at L3, instead of 100 initial damage + burn.

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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby headprogrammingczar » Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:38 pm UTC

Warlock's ultimate is 100% a support tool. You use it just after the first exchange because a golem is really hard to deal with when you're on cooldown. You open at the same time as initiation with Q for some amplification, then R after they finish bursting and immediately channel E. You now have a stun, ridiculous follow-up slow, plus radiance and cleave on a new full-hp target.

Obviously this is all predicated on the rest of your team able to hold on so all that DoT can happen. Buy your items accordingly. Eul's, mek, and pipe are the order of the day.

As for carries, I've been greatly enjoying Weaver. I can never decide if I should level W or E first though...
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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Menacing Spike » Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:44 pm UTC

headprogrammingczar wrote:Warlock's ultimate is 100% a support tool. You use it just after the first exchange


I think you should either use it immediately, or drop it to stop a black hole or whatever (since you go past BKB with this shit, while ravage totally doesn't, suck it Tide). That initial stun is extremely important: and if they want to stun the infernal instead of your carry, LET THEM! The only thing you should really fear is them diffusaling it off. If they have a diffusal holder, then the timing is very dependent on the situation. I'd say wait if he doesn't know you're there and you don't need the stun right this instant. As soon as he purges, dunk.

At any rate you should Bonds immediately, it's your best spell.

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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Metaphysician » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:30 am UTC

So I picked Dota 2 up again (I played a little during closed beta). My introduction to the genre was (like many) through League of Legends. I started playing Dota 2 because all my friends that played league quit, and I have a couple that play Dota 2. I just have to say that so far, I love this game so much more. There is just an insane amount of depth to be mined. Every hero actually feels powerful in its own way, and there are so many mechanics that don't exist in LoL because they would be considered "broken" that are just so much fun. The heroes are way more distinct, I like that dying penalizes gold, and I love the denying mechanic. Honestly so far I don't think I would change much about the game at all. I'm having a blast. Granted I play at a very low level and am not qualified to evaluate balance issues or at this point even hero power since I haven't played all of the heroes yet. I also love that instead of introducing variety through new maps and stuff like LoL, they do it through interesting game modes. My favorites right now are single draft and all random. So much fun.
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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Zcorp » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:39 am UTC

Metaphysician wrote:So I picked Dota 2 up again (I played a little during closed beta). My introduction to the genre was (like many) through League of Legends. I started playing Dota 2 because all my friends that played league quit, and I have a couple that play Dota 2. I just have to say that so far, I love this game so much more. There is just an insane amount of depth to be mined. Every hero actually feels powerful in its own way, and there are so many mechanics that don't exist in LoL because they would be considered "broken" that are just so much fun. The heroes are way more distinct, I like that dying penalizes gold, and I love the denying mechanic. Honestly so far I don't think I would change much about the game at all. I'm having a blast. Granted I play at a very low level and am not qualified to evaluate balance issues or at this point even hero power since I haven't played all of the heroes yet. I also love that instead of introducing variety through new maps and stuff like LoL, they do it through interesting game modes. My favorites right now are single draft and all random. So much fun.

Glad you are enjoying it.

SD and AR are great modes to play with once you know the basics so good choice there. They greatly assist with overcoming the knowledge barrier of learning what heroes do as well as items as you will be purchasing a variety of them.

Looking forward to Valve putting in the Death Match mode.

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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Metaphysician » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:13 am UTC

Zcorp wrote:
Metaphysician wrote:So I picked Dota 2 up again (I played a little during closed beta). My introduction to the genre was (like many) through League of Legends. I started playing Dota 2 because all my friends that played league quit, and I have a couple that play Dota 2. I just have to say that so far, I love this game so much more. There is just an insane amount of depth to be mined. Every hero actually feels powerful in its own way, and there are so many mechanics that don't exist in LoL because they would be considered "broken" that are just so much fun. The heroes are way more distinct, I like that dying penalizes gold, and I love the denying mechanic. Honestly so far I don't think I would change much about the game at all. I'm having a blast. Granted I play at a very low level and am not qualified to evaluate balance issues or at this point even hero power since I haven't played all of the heroes yet. I also love that instead of introducing variety through new maps and stuff like LoL, they do it through interesting game modes. My favorites right now are single draft and all random. So much fun.

Glad you are enjoying it.

SD and AR are great modes to play with once you know the basics so good choice there. They greatly assist with overcoming the knowledge barrier of learning what heroes do as well as items as you will be purchasing a variety of them.

Looking forward to Valve putting in the Death Match mode.



Yeah it's a really good way to explore a variety of heroes without having to learn going up against somebody playing their five hundredth game with their favorite. I'm picking up the basics of item building and starting to get a feel for what sorts of builds you want to go in various situations. I really appreciate the in game guide system the game has as it gives me basic builds and allows me to experiment without flailing around trying things at random.
What should young people do with their lives today? Many things, obviously. But the most daring thing is to create stable communities in which the terrible disease of loneliness can be cured.
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Sytri
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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Sytri » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:22 am UTC

So I've had a couple of days of playing this and settled to play Drow. All I do is follow the basic build but completely skip silence until I get to Level 21 at which point I have Manta and Nightshadow and no one can get close. I know it's not the meta-game tactic but it's fantastic being at lvl 11 and destroying ursa because he cant gain ground on me. I'll start randoming more to get used to more of the heores but I love this game. And it's cool that it's free (I've spent on it already because of the lock boxes) I think Riki will be my next choice to play through for a while as well.
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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Menacing Spike » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:43 am UTC

Please, at least put 1 early point in silence. It's one of the greatest teamfight spells. If you manage to get the jump on them, 6 seconds without spells is a fight won. It's also very useful while ganking to avoid your enemy using spells to flee (that way you can kill, say, Antimage). Same with riki's smoke (riki should probably max it later than drow should max silence).

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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Sytri » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:12 am UTC

I did in the early games but it never helped keep them pinned as much as frost arrow and extra damage does. I was thinking of putting it in at lvl4 maybe: 1 Precision, 2 Frost, 3 Precision, 4 Silence, 5 Frost, 6 Ult.

That way I do a lot of damage, keep them slowed and have a silence too. I know it isn't optimal at all but I play pub all the time because I'm the only one of my friends to play it so if I can take someone down quickly it's far better than wasting a second or two making sure they're silenced. I'll keep playing about to see what is better. Found a new build last night that I'll potter about with. If I can get a decent partner I'd be fine, but I usually end up on an easy lane for a while or get ganked to hell because I'm all on my own.

Last night played a match where I was constantly ganked for about 10 minutes as no one would help me and they kept wandering off and abusing me for being a noob and that I should go die or quit (in that order). Luckily I levelled OK ish still and came back to be the highest level of our group, most kills and I spearheaded all the main attacks that almost let us win. Until all the rest of the group kept being killed because they charged head first into fights they had no hope of winning. I'm really enjoying it all and the learning curve is quite steep but only if you realise how much tactics is used. I only found out about denying kills recently and that is so good to do it right!
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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Metaphysician » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:38 am UTC

Sytri wrote:I did in the early games but it never helped keep them pinned as much as frost arrow and extra damage does. I was thinking of putting it in at lvl4 maybe: 1 Precision, 2 Frost, 3 Precision, 4 Silence, 5 Frost, 6 Ult.

That way I do a lot of damage, keep them slowed and have a silence too. I know it isn't optimal at all but I play pub all the time because I'm the only one of my friends to play it so if I can take someone down quickly it's far better than wasting a second or two making sure they're silenced. I'll keep playing about to see what is better. Found a new build last night that I'll potter about with. If I can get a decent partner I'd be fine, but I usually end up on an easy lane for a while or get ganked to hell because I'm all on my own.

Last night played a match where I was constantly ganked for about 10 minutes as no one would help me and they kept wandering off and abusing me for being a noob and that I should go die or quit (in that order). Luckily I levelled OK ish still and came back to be the highest level of our group, most kills and I spearheaded all the main attacks that almost let us win. Until all the rest of the group kept being killed because they charged head first into fights they had no hope of winning. I'm really enjoying it all and the learning curve is quite steep but only if you realise how much tactics is used. I only found out about denying kills recently and that is so good to do it right!


You need the silence on Drow. Lvl 4 is normally when I take it. It's not only useful for teamfights, but also for escaping. That one or two seconds it takes to get the silence off results in six seconds of all caught in it not being able to cast spells. If that doesn't help you kill and stay alive at the same time, you're doing it wrong.
What should young people do with their lives today? Many things, obviously. But the most daring thing is to create stable communities in which the terrible disease of loneliness can be cured.
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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Zcorp » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:31 pm UTC

You should really be getting silence at level 2 on drow.

Her aura scales off her agility, and you don't have very much of that early. Once you hit level 6 you are often going to have +40 agility, which is probably a 80-100%% increase over what you had previously (26+9.5[1.9*5]+40+items). So there is almost an argument for getting true shot at level 4 in preparation for level 6, but even then really the second level of silence is incredibly valuable.

There are very few cases where you should ever consider not maxing silence second at level 9 or 10, and there are no cases where it is ever acceptable to not have silence till level 21.

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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Sytri » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:37 pm UTC

I'll try it out then :) I've managed 35 games so far, most on Drow, most without silence and I've won 23 of them and been top one or two for our team I think.

So new plan:

1 frost
2 Silence
3 Precision
4 Silence
5 frost
6 Ult
7....25 Variation on a theme.

Yes or no?
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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Zcorp » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:10 pm UTC

Try
1. Frost
2. Silence
3. Frost
4. Trueshot

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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby headprogrammingczar » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:52 pm UTC

I would go even further. The extra third of silence duration helps at early levels when you aren't doing 200 per hit.

1 frost
2 silence
3 frost
4 silence
5 precision
6 ult
7..25 build up frost, precision, then alternate silence/stats as you desire
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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Metaphysician » Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:11 am UTC

If you ever play with a buddy, drow and vengeful spirit is a disgusting lane. Both take aura level one and max it, you get so much damage from both the auras stacking in lane. I find it pretty easy to start farming kills around level three, vengeful stuns, drow silences, this is normally a kill.
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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby headprogrammingczar » Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:58 am UTC

Or if damage over time is more your thing, try warlock and jakiro. Ice path at level 2 is enough time for both of you to get your spells off, and at early levels the damage over time can do half their HP.
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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Jesse » Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:54 pm UTC

Jakiro is a glorious hero once you get used to his Ice Path range. I have done so many disgusting things to opposing teams using that skill.

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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby headprogrammingczar » Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:37 am UTC

I just had a ridiculous game as Omniknight with mana boots, soul ring, and vlad's.

Is it just me, or is his W better to cast on enemies than allies? It doesn't seem to do much in the way of stopping death, but being untargetable for force staff and the like is a major nuisance.
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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Menacing Spike » Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:57 pm UTC

headprogrammingczar wrote:Is it just me, or is his W better to cast on enemies than allies?


Just cast it when your allies would benefit from bkb. Probably on your carry, or your enigma, or whoever is going to be a prime target for disables. Your enemies will have to stun someone else, and the effectiveness of dangerous aoe spells (ie ravage) is lessened greatly. This spell also shits on obsidian destroyer, skywrath, etc. Conversely, heroes like beastmaster won't really care.

With a bit of skill and anticipation you can also negate projectiles midair. If you know a bountyhunter/sven/leoric/venge/etc is going to attack an ally with a nuke, you can repel the target as the projectile flies, and the foe will have spent mana and cd for nothing. This is the reason why I like at least 1 level of repel early. Spells like laguna blade CAN be evaded with great timing.

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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby headprogrammingczar » Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:52 pm UTC

Neat! I'll have to learn the casting time so I can use it more effectively.
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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Menacing Spike » Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:12 pm UTC

Here's a badass repel dodge: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... -_nM#t=138

You'll notice that later on he'll repel to break out of dream coil, so repel is not always preventive, it can be reactive.

(and please do not imitate his item build)

edit: had a maggot fall on my face recently - the way its head moves reminded me a lot of nightstalker. Perhaps maggots were an inspiration?

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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Gopher of Pern » Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:58 pm UTC

New patch. The changes. Oh me yarm the changes!

http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=109826

It's a drastically different game. No more pooling, pulling/stacking and jungling has changed, buyback nerf, day/night cycle changed, wards give bounty.

Plus all the hero and item changes!
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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby headprogrammingczar » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:11 am UTC

Pudge
- Can now use Blink Dagger


Oh shi-!

I really don't know what to think about those changes. They're undoing the armlet cooldown after a single patch? I'll believe that when I see it in-client...

I am not really sure what to think of the rest either. The changes to nightvision are very boring, I like the Roshan changes, the starting gold change is a bit drastic, buyback is significantly more painful, and denies are less of a shut-down. I do really like disruptor's Agh's upgrade from silence to mute though.
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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Sytri » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:01 pm UTC

Gopher of Pern wrote:New patch. The changes. Gee Willikers the changes!

http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=109826

It's a drastically different game. No more pooling, pulling/stacking and jungling has changed, buyback nerf, day/night cycle changed, wards give bounty.

Plus all the hero and item changes!



Any chance of posting them? Blocked at work.

Edit: Nvm, got through it on my phone :)

Drow Ranger
- Precision Aura damage ratio increased from 16/20/24/28% to 18/24/30/36%
- Precision Aura no longer affects creeps
- Precision Aura can now be manually casted to affect creeps globally for 30 seconds (120 cd)
- Marksmanship attribute negation AoE increased from 375 to 400

Slight nerf to Marksmanship but buff to precision aura!? Awesome. Now even more powerful if played well. I already have people complaining that she's OP in late game, now it'll just get worse.
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EmptySet
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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby EmptySet » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:20 pm UTC

headprogrammingczar wrote:...the starting gold change is a bit drastic...


It's actually not so drastic - it's mostly compensating for cost increases to healing salves and tangoes.

The change to passive gold gain, however... combined with the shorter day/night cycle and several of the other changes, it looks like they're trying to speed the game up a little.


Also, those new tranquils look made for Crystal Maiden and her horrible, horrible movespeed.

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headprogrammingczar
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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby headprogrammingczar » Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:24 am UTC

Oh, just noticed it can't be disassembled anymore either. I smell dozens of vlad's turning into accidental greenboots.
<quintopia> You're not crazy. you're the goddamn headprogrammingspock!
<Weeks> You're the goddamn headprogrammingspock!
<Cheese> I love you

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Sytri
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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Sytri » Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:40 am UTC

So I've decided to start learning how to play supports more as it seems everyone wants to be the carry and earn teh big kills come team fights. My god. I seem to get matched with either really good people who barely need me and allow me to get whatever I want equipment wise and then we become all powerful and stomp everyone or I get the carries that don't attempt a last hit or denies, routinely get themselves killed by trying to kill the opponent next to their tower. I don't seem to get anyone in between. I don't know whether it's me though. I think I've been doing OK and I have my favourite supports and have good tactics. Last night I played Shadow Shaman and I paired bloodseeker. He constantly ran after a losing kill and then abandoned me in the lane to push another. We then lost two lanes and I kept being ganked. If it weren't for the fact you get put in the rejects pool if you quit too many times, I'd be quitting a lot more matches.
Apathy will kill us all. Or not. Whatever.

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Menacing Spike
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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Menacing Spike » Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:04 pm UTC

Sytri wrote:I kept being ganked


You might want to ward a lot more, or just roam. That is part of your role as a support.

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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Zcorp » Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:15 am UTC

Sytri wrote:So I've decided to start learning how to play supports more as it seems everyone wants to be the carry and earn teh big kills come team fights.

The feeling of powerlessness in dota is generally a bigger motivation than being overly powerful.

If you are doing a good job as a support you are getting your carry as much far as possible, however if your carry doesn't know how to farm or doesn't know how to use their farm it can be one of the most frustrating experiences in the game. Many people I know who prefer to play support, especially in the mid skill tier area, struggle not getting a hero that can have big impact with their farm. The feeling of being an amazing support on a team with a carry that has no clue what to do or how to farm is such a shitty one that people will do a lot to avoid it.

My god. I seem to get matched with either really good people who barely need me and allow me to get whatever I want equipment wise and then we become all powerful and stomp everyone or I get the carries that don't attempt a last hit or denies, routinely get themselves killed by trying to kill the opponent next to their tower. I don't seem to get anyone in between.

Heh, should of finished reading your post, this is exactly what I mean. It so much sucks to get those bad carry players.

I don't know whether it's me though. I think I've been doing OK and I have my favourite supports and have good tactics. Last night I played Shadow Shaman and I paired bloodseeker. He constantly ran after a losing kill and then abandoned me in the lane to push another. We then lost two lanes and I kept being ganked. If it weren't for the fact you get put in the rejects pool if you quit too many times, I'd be quitting a lot more matches.
It probably isn't you, this is something that has been observed and from a design stand point doesn't really have a good solution. Unfortunately the answer from a player perspective seems to be; get good at mid heroes that have high mid game impact. As this is the way to have the most impact on the game for non-top top tier skill levels. If you can get your MMR into the higher % games the problem you are experiencing with bad carry players goes away mostly.

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Sytri
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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Sytri » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:39 am UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:
Sytri wrote:I kept being ganked


You might want to ward a lot more, or just roam. That is part of your role as a support.


Which would you prioritise more, warding or keeping that ~200 gold to buy your next upgrade? Honest question. The only time I ward above equipment is if I have riki in my lane or any other chars with invis potential.

I think I'm going to stop playing shadow shaman, I'm far better with lich for offense and omniknight for defense. I'll keep playing and improving those two and see how I go.
Apathy will kill us all. Or not. Whatever.

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Menacing Spike
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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Menacing Spike » Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:32 pm UTC

I wasn't talking about sentry wards but observer wards. There is a reason those fuckers are on a buying cooldown for the whole team. They should be bought as soon as available.

They have many purposes: you can keep track of rune spawns, ganks, prevent neutral creeps spawning in their jungle... (the "magic bush"), and have many other uses. Of course, detecting ganks is useless when your teammates have the minimap awareness of a wet sock.

Just google "warding guide" as to where to place them, I don't know of a specific one to recommend you.

When you get to a much higher level, they will start to ward too! That's when you buy sentry wards to detect their wards, and "deward" by destroying them with ranged attacks or a quelling blade. You will also be able to avoid their observer wards while ganking with a "smoke of deceit".

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Sytri
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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Sytri » Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:17 am UTC

So I had a least played match up last night. Went for Ursa. Never played him and this was my take:

Jungle till you get Vlad, Kill Rosh, Become all powerfull unless being kited by at least 4 players.

I've found a new love when I'm not supporting.
Apathy will kill us all. Or not. Whatever.

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sardia
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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby sardia » Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:06 pm UTC

The return on investment for a ward is infinitely high. But the returns don't go to you. Say you're Sentinel, and you ward the rune bot. Mid comes down to gank you and your carry that you're babysitting. Both of you hide at the tower, denying yourself xp and gold. But the mid, and the 2 heroes bot on the other team has to split xp and gold, netting you positive since your team lost less experience. The reason is that the mid hero on your team is still farming, while their hero is not. In addition, there are 3 heroes splitting 1 lane of experience instead of 3 heroes with 2 lanes of experience/gold. 1 ward can tell you where the runes are because if it's not at one spot, it has to be on the other.

Don't be fooled by jungling heroes, you get less xp than if you were in lane, but more importantly, you're screwing your lane partner. They don't get as many last hits and xp, so they are underfarmed/leveled while you get to play by yourself in the jungle. To make up for it, the lane partner should be something that can solo, like a BH, AM, or Timber/clockwerk. Something that can sorta farm, but more importantly escape.

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Sytri
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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Sytri » Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:24 pm UTC

sardia wrote:....Don't be fooled by jungling heroes, you get less xp than if you were in lane, but more importantly, you're screwing your lane partner. They don't get as many last hits and xp, so they are underfarmed/leveled while you get to play by yourself in the jungle. To make up for it, the lane partner should be something that can solo, like a BH, AM, or Timber/clockwerk. Something that can sorta farm, but more importantly escape.


Oh yeah; I was teamed with Lycan so he took the lane and I jungled. As soon as I hit lvl 6, after getting vlad and killing rosh that was it then. No one could solo kill me. Double teams would get close if they could keep the distance (had phase boots and shadow blade so didn't) and three people (on this team at least) just couldn't do it. I was pulling 4 of them to whatever lane I was in. That just meant a good co-ordination as to what tower to take. If we wanted bottom, I'd solo push top and draw them all away. Just kept playing like that all match. I'm going to play a bit more tonight and see if I can really get to grips with him. Will also look up warding to see what I should be doing.
Apathy will kill us all. Or not. Whatever.

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sardia
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Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby sardia » Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:59 pm UTC

Dagger is faster than shadowblade and can't be preempted by dust/sentries. Ursa peters out late game so you need to end it before their carry comes online. You also get kited really easily, a problem that grows as you rise in MMR. People ward rosh, so you should use smoke to sneak in there. After that, you will be probably the same skill level as me.


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