Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Of the Tabletop, and other, lesser varieties.

Moderators: SecondTalon, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
Menacing Spike
Posts: 2982
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:25 pm UTC
Location: Fighting the Zombie.

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Menacing Spike » Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:30 pm UTC

Nope, if you take physical damage MoM will cause physical damage, pure damage -> pure damage, etc.

BKB is still pretty much mandatory with it to avoid being nuked and disabled since you become an immediate priority target (with MoM activated, you are frail, high mobility, have insane DPS, and have lifesteal, all good reasons to disable and burst you).

User avatar
Jesse
Vocal Terrorist
Posts: 8635
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:33 pm UTC
Location: Basingstoke, England.
Contact:

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Jesse » Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:46 am UTC

sardia wrote:
Jesse wrote:For SB you just want to be split pushing all the time, since your charge lets you jump into a teamfight from anywhere on the map with a fantastic stun at the same time. Also, if your team has some good aggressive warding you can catch your opponent's jungler in the early game, which is always nice.

It's so much weaker now that charge AND his ult can be interrupted. =( You still go MoM and vanguard?


Aww man, didn't know that. Been back in the SC2 scene prepping for some commentary at EpicLAN so I've not picked up DotA for the past couple of months. Missing it hard.

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 5725
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby sardia » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:54 pm UTC

Tree and SB are the two heroes I stopped playing because of the recent changes. However, tree is still good, I just don't like the global style he has. SB is just bad period.

User avatar
PeteP
What the peck?
Posts: 1451
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:51 pm UTC

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby PeteP » Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:04 pm UTC

I'm currently playing the tutorial, the information density is damn low, and just give me the videos in text form. Is there really no way to skip them?
I think the design isn't very good. For instance why fight 3 fucking creep camps? You don't learn much watching your hero hit creeps for an eternity, which aren't a real threat. And text boxes which stay far to long for my reading speed, resulting in more (although small) periods of waiting.
Well I'm more annoyed because I aborted the first tutorial before finishing it to do stuff with friends and thus had to do it twice, but tutorials I don't like always make me pessimistic about the game.
Edit: Oh and most of all: Denying one thing a player coming from something like lol might not expect? If it was mentioned I missed it.

User avatar
Menacing Spike
Posts: 2982
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:25 pm UTC
Location: Fighting the Zombie.

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Menacing Spike » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:11 pm UTC

You are playing the utter noob tutorial for people that don't know basic RTS controls. There will be tutorials later about laning and stuff.

Zcorp
Posts: 1255
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:14 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Zcorp » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:49 pm UTC

PeteP wrote:I'm currently playing the tutorial, the information density is damn low, and just give me the videos in text form. Is there really no way to skip them?
I think the design isn't very good. For instance why fight 3 fucking creep camps? You don't learn much watching your hero hit creeps for an eternity, which aren't a real threat. And text boxes which stay far to long for my reading speed, resulting in more (although small) periods of waiting.
Well I'm more annoyed because I aborted the first tutorial before finishing it to do stuff with friends and thus had to do it twice, but tutorials I don't like always make me pessimistic about the game.
Edit: Oh and most of all: Denying one thing a player coming from something like lol might not expect? If it was mentioned I missed it.


Yes, Valve's tutorial is weak. It is unfortunate they aren't building a good one, and they are seemingly unwilling to hire people to do so. As I understand it their current plan is to release a map builder and let the community create the tutorials for them. I'm curious as to their plan for the financial incentive for that as requiring players to purchase the tutorial like they would other community created content is IMO a poor and very weird choice. They might have other plans in mind, but I'm unsure what they might be.

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 5725
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby sardia » Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:07 pm UTC

Wouldn't certain maps be free?

Also, the reward for doing the tutorial is a complete set of sniper gear. Waste of time, but I didn't mind.

User avatar
cemper93
Posts: 209
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:35 pm UTC
Location: `pwd`

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby cemper93 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:45 pm UTC

Also, the reward for doing the tutorial is a complete set of sniper gear. Waste of time, but I didn't mind.

What, I didn't get anything. (But I also played the tutorial some time ago, when it was still skippable by launch options.) Which set do you get? I was so happy when I recently finished the Hare Hunt set, my first complete Dota set, entirely through random drops. (I mean, I was totally happy. Not because I've ever played Sniper, or would ever want to do so, but because it's complete now. I have an OCD attitude towards collecting things.)

But yes, I also felt that the tutorial was weak. However, I do believe that a decent Dota tutorial is very hard to make, so I'm willing to cut them some slack. After all, it's still better than League of Legend's - Thornmail on Ashe, and bot teammates dying to tower shots while trying to AA them without a creepwave nearby.

User avatar
Sytri
Posts: 451
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:00 am UTC
Location: Reading, UK

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Sytri » Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:50 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Wouldn't certain maps be free?

Also, the reward for doing the tutorial is a complete set of sniper gear. Waste of time, but I didn't mind.



Pretty sure I didn't get any sniper gear when I did the tutorial.....

Played as Lich last night, dire, bottom lane with Mirana. 12 kills, 18 assists and 0 deaths. Mirana had 14/18 and 2 deaths. We were the leaders. We ganked the crap out of a jungling LC thanks to bloodseekers ability. First time I'd ever had a game with 0 deaths. And I was playing a support! I'm not taking it as evidence I'm getting better, more that they were really bad. But it's cheered me up and spurred me on to play more. I think support is the game for me and especially Lich; unlimited mana essentially and some massive damage if done well.
Apathy will kill us all. Or not. Whatever.

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 5725
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby sardia » Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:04 pm UTC

Question, did you finish the tutorial? Like go through and play all the way to fighting human opponents in limited heroes pool? I'll have to go home and check out what set it was, but it was a complete set. I assumed it was intentional since it's seemed unlikely to get drops for a specific hero and have it all be from a (albeit common) single set.

Some quick googling shows that completing the tutorial gives you a lore book, and the Gunslinger item set for sniper. So I'm not crazy.

Liche is one of the easiest heroes to play because of his 2 synergistic abilities. You start off with dark ritual, which eats a creep(automatically denying it regardless of hp) which reduces xp gain from your opponents. And it gives you mana which fuels your nuke/slow. So you start the game with the sacrifice skill, which sacrifices the first creep, you deny another creep by attacking it when it is low, and then sacrifice another creep, so the opposing team starts the first wave with 1-2 creeps worth of xp instead of 3-4. Once you hit lvl 2 onwards, you nova them, autoattack them a bit until you agro the enemy creeps. Repeat with denies>sacrifice>nova>attack>retreat. Eventually, you'll be a couple levels higher than them, which gives you more power more hp. You end up snowballing a bit because you're lanemate has freefarm, and the opponents are low hp, and low leveled from the constant nuking and denying. You'll have an immense advantage just from that, and it'll win you a lot of games on that alone. Pressuring your lane frees up your mid to gank since they know the lane you're in is always near your tower, and the enemies in that lane are easy pickings.

User avatar
Sytri
Posts: 451
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:00 am UTC
Location: Reading, UK

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Sytri » Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:35 am UTC

Oh wait, I remember getting the gunslinger gun; not a full set though.

Also, went back to have a look at the tutorial and it's been revamped. Might have a play about.

Played lich again last night and boy was it fun; every team had at least one player playing phoenix or terrorblade, not know how to play them and feed everyone. Good times.

Had a play with terrorblade against bots and he seems dangerous. In the hands of someone half decent I'd be very worried against him.
Apathy will kill us all. Or not. Whatever.

User avatar
Menacing Spike
Posts: 2982
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:25 pm UTC
Location: Fighting the Zombie.

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Menacing Spike » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:46 am UTC

His big weaknesses are very low starting hp and low range on his slow. Gank the shit out of him people!

User avatar
Sytri
Posts: 451
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:00 am UTC
Location: Reading, UK

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Sytri » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:03 am UTC

Played Phoenix last night, one game against bots, the other real life. Had 3 kills 28 assists and 6 deaths. Not great, not terrible. I found a guide that had him play as a support but he's not listed as a support on the game itself. How would you play him? I usually charged fire spirits, swept in on icarus, popping spirits aswell and then sunray any of the tanks in range. Then supernova if I needed a quick heal or it did enough distracting damage. Caught a lot of people out when they didn't realise it stunned aswell as damaged.

This is mainly just spamming and I know there must be some sort of tactics involved so any tips?
Apathy will kill us all. Or not. Whatever.

Zcorp
Posts: 1255
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:14 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Zcorp » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:14 am UTC

Ability Draft is a pretty huge disappointment.
Its not like this was even a hard thing to do well, it was already done. Oh me yarm dota has been around forever and the mod community has already built it for them in dota 2. Really unfortunate that they messed it up this bad.

User avatar
cemper93
Posts: 209
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:35 pm UTC
Location: `pwd`

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby cemper93 » Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:51 pm UTC

What makes you think it's messed up? I'm having a lot of fun with it. CW with Untouchable and Chemical Rage; Sticky Napalm, Rot and Viper Strike; stunlocks all over the place.

It had some bugs, but they have been mostly ironed out over the last few days, even though some OP things remain (Mana Shield still procs Fiery Soul, for instance).

User avatar
Menacing Spike
Posts: 2982
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:25 pm UTC
Location: Fighting the Zombie.

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Menacing Spike » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:27 pm UTC

My favorite combo was vacuum, concoction, split earth, slark ultimate. Enjoy your 6 seconds of stun, fuckers!

Zcorp
Posts: 1255
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:14 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Zcorp » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:53 pm UTC

Here is how Ability Draft (O M G) worked in Dota: http://www.dota-source.com/2010/02/what ... -dota.html

They have removed some very significant aspects of how the draft works. Such as forcing the All Random for hero selection. Not that All Pick is much better as people rush to pick specific heroes, but Random Draft was far superior to AR. RD allowed you to pick a hero based on where you were in the skill picking order so you can give some account to how the is going to play out. With AR there is great risk in simply getting a hero that gets screwed simply because of their pick position in the draft. As well as having some ability to avoid the heroes with particularly shitty stat growth, range, starting stats etc. Valve has had to simply the game modes due to match making but there is no good reason to do AR over RD, you save a bit of time per game from the hero draft but you will have lopsided matches with much more frequency.

The changes in time to pick abilities seems to frequently get accidental random abilities, and there is already a better solution than randoming of them anyway. In Dota people who didn't pick within the time were left to pick abilities after draft ended rather than randoming crap. The ability pool to pick from was random from all heroes in the game not just those the players randomed +2. This increased pool led to a great variety, more room for creativity and largely prevented people getting entirely screwed by being in the middle of the draft.

I also preferred the ability to pick 2 abilities together, as well as the restrictions the mode placed on some abilities, such as no orb attacks on melee.

User avatar
cemper93
Posts: 209
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:35 pm UTC
Location: `pwd`

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby cemper93 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:44 am UTC

Has Valve ever confirmed that your MMR is the same across all gamemodes? I kind of find that hard to believe. Usually, when playing CM, I get good teammates who understand the game, with supports warding, pulling and smokeganking etc. OTOH, whenever I play AP, everybody is fighting for farm, there is no team synergy, and the winning team is the one whose four carries are even lategamer than the opponent's.

Just had a great game as a Void with an AA support. Chronosphere + Chilling Touch + MoM + Ice Blast rekt the enemy team so hard.

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 5725
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby sardia » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:57 pm UTC

You do realize that CM mode is inherently a tryhard format, right? You do not play CM mode unless you want to or are in it by mistake. Those who mistakenly try it will quickly leave it since it's boring to wait for the ban/pick phases, the opponents are harder, and you don't have control over your hero pick. The fact that you are explicitly counterpicking and picking a lineup is key here, not to mention executing the lineup properly.

Zcorp
Posts: 1255
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:14 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Zcorp » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:38 am UTC

sardia wrote:You do realize that CM mode is inherently a tryhard format, right?

Never really understood this idea of a 'tryhard.' Do people play All Pick because they don't want to try to play the game well? If so, why play at all? This concept, and that it is often used as a pejorative completely eludes me.

User avatar
Adacore
Posts: 2755
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:35 pm UTC
Location: 한국 창원

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Adacore » Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:27 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:
sardia wrote:You do realize that CM mode is inherently a tryhard format, right?

Never really understood this idea of a 'tryhard.' Do people play All Pick because they don't want to try to play the game well? If so, why play at all? This concept, and that it is often used as a pejorative completely eludes me.

Frequently people don't play to play optimally, but to fulfil whatever their concept of 'fun' is. That may involve playing a hero they enjoy rather than one you're good at, or one that's good for the team composition, for example. Or it could mean frequently going for fights that aren't optimal, because they think fighting is more fun than playing a controlled, safe farming game, even if the latter is a better way to win.

I don't understand why 'tryhard' is a negative term, though. The only way it works is if you're trying to imply that playing a game seriously is 'uncool' (in being nerdy/geeky/whatever), but that's really the height of hypocrisy, when the people making the accusations are playing the game themselves...

Zcorp
Posts: 1255
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:14 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Zcorp » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:15 pm UTC

Adacore wrote:
Zcorp wrote:
sardia wrote:You do realize that CM mode is inherently a tryhard format, right?

Never really understood this idea of a 'tryhard.' Do people play All Pick because they don't want to try to play the game well? If so, why play at all? This concept, and that it is often used as a pejorative completely eludes me.

Frequently people don't play to play optimally, but to fulfil whatever their concept of 'fun' is. That may involve playing a hero they enjoy rather than one you're good at, or one that's good for the team composition, for example. Or it could mean frequently going for fights that aren't optimal, because they think fighting is more fun than playing a controlled, safe farming game, even if the latter is a better way to win.

Is anyone that randoms then not trying hard? Or picking outside of the often narrow group think of what the current optimal hero is? If not, does not trying hard simply mean purposely choosing a bad strategy or just a risky one? If someones concept of fun is 'playing well' are they always a 'try hard?'

User avatar
Adacore
Posts: 2755
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:35 pm UTC
Location: 한국 창원

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Adacore » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:22 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:
Adacore wrote:Frequently people don't play to play optimally, but to fulfil whatever their concept of 'fun' is. That may involve playing a hero they enjoy rather than one you're good at, or one that's good for the team composition, for example. Or it could mean frequently going for fights that aren't optimal, because they think fighting is more fun than playing a controlled, safe farming game, even if the latter is a better way to win.

Is anyone that randoms then not trying hard? Or picking outside of the often narrow group think of what the current optimal hero is? If not, does not trying hard simply mean purposely choosing a bad strategy or just a risky one? If someones concept of fun is 'playing well' are they always a 'try hard?'

I'd think the act of randoming is not 'try hard', but you could transition into 'try hard' if you then play optimally to win after that. Basically anyone that plays in the way they think is strictly optimal to win the game is 'try hard', as I understand it (whether they consider that the most fun way to play or not, which is kinda subjective and thus impossible to tell).

I guess it also has connotations of trying too hard, and thus not performing optimally because you're attempting things above your ability level. That tends to be the meaning in non-gaming contexts, I think, but not so much when it's used as an insult by gamers. It's also not always used as an insult - people on streams frequently use it about themselves as shorthand to mean 'I'm actually going to concentrate and do my best to win this [sometimes instead of messing around to make the stream more entertaining]'.

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 5725
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby sardia » Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:46 am UTC

Adacore wrote:
Zcorp wrote:
sardia wrote:You do realize that CM mode is inherently a tryhard format, right?

Never really understood this idea of a 'tryhard.' Do people play All Pick because they don't want to try to play the game well? If so, why play at all? This concept, and that it is often used as a pejorative completely eludes me.

Frequently people don't play to play optimally, but to fulfil whatever their concept of 'fun' is. That may involve playing a hero they enjoy rather than one you're good at, or one that's good for the team composition, for example. Or it could mean frequently going for fights that aren't optimal, because they think fighting is more fun than playing a controlled, safe farming game, even if the latter is a better way to win.

I don't understand why 'tryhard' is a negative term, though. The only way it works is if you're trying to imply that playing a game seriously is 'uncool' (in being nerdy/geeky/whatever), but that's really the height of hypocrisy, when the people making the accusations are playing the game themselves...

This is probably the closest. While tryhard is used as a pejorative, it's also common slang, and often means whatever the user wants it to mean. The key thing is, are you ok with losing when you could have won? Is winning itself not fun? Once you answer that, you can play dota a lot more carefree.

Zcorp
Posts: 1255
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:14 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Zcorp » Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:37 am UTC

sardia wrote:This is probably the closest. While tryhard is used as a pejorative, it's also common slang, and often means whatever the user wants it to mean.

So it is really just a random meaningless insult? The idea that someone is some how doing something wrong by trying to play well is lamentable. That there isn't even a clear understanding of what that means and people just say it to be inflammatory is down right pitiful.

The key thing is, are you ok with losing when you could have won? Is winning itself not fun? Once you answer that, you can play dota a lot more carefree.

It is a team based competitive game, why would I want to play it carefree? If you aren't trying to play well for yourself you should be for the other players it is just rude 9 other people to join a competitive game and play it carelessly.

User avatar
cemper93
Posts: 209
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:35 pm UTC
Location: `pwd`

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby cemper93 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:39 am UTC

It is a team based competitive game, why would I want to play it carefree? If you aren't trying to play well for yourself you should be for the other players it is just rude 9 other people to join a competitive game and play it carelessly.

That depends on the pick mode though. Playing carelessly in CM is not nice, but do the same in All Random or something and people will mind it considerably less.

Zcorp
Posts: 1255
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:14 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Zcorp » Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:11 am UTC

cemper93 wrote:
It is a team based competitive game, why would I want to play it carefree? If you aren't trying to play well for yourself you should be for the other players it is just rude 9 other people to join a competitive game and play it carelessly.

That depends on the pick mode though. Playing carelessly in CM is not nice, but do the same in All Random or something and people will mind it considerably less.

I guess I haven't really met those people, at least I haven't noticed them nor am I one of them. Playing AR is IMO hardly a reason to slack off. AD seems to have this problem as well, because people queue AD they seem to often excuse their carelessness because they feel it should be expected in the mode. If people want to slack off why not just kill bots?

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 5725
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby sardia » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:38 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:
cemper93 wrote:
It is a team based competitive game, why would I want to play it carefree? If you aren't trying to play well for yourself you should be for the other players it is just rude 9 other people to join a competitive game and play it carelessly.

That depends on the pick mode though. Playing carelessly in CM is not nice, but do the same in All Random or something and people will mind it considerably less.

I guess I haven't really met those people, at least I haven't noticed them nor am I one of them. Playing AR is IMO hardly a reason to slack off. AD seems to have this problem as well, because people queue AD they seem to often excuse their carelessness because they feel it should be expected in the mode. If people want to slack off why not just kill bots?

It's possible to slack off at multiple points in the game and work hard at other points, but I'm surprised that you've never 'slacked off' in any of your games. What's your mmr? Do you play with a party or alone? Are you claiming that nobody you've played against or with has ever picked a hero leading to a poor lineup? Or everyone plays their roles correctly? Its possible you won't notice poor decision making on the enemy team and attribute it to their lack of skill, but you never seen anyone pick the newest hero that just came out or random a bunch because they can't decide?

Easy example, there's no reason to pick more than x carries, but sometimes I pick ursa, a poor carry that is a 1 trick pony. When I go into the jungle without thinking, I end up forcing my team into having another solo lane, and not having a presence til rosh is down.

Zcorp
Posts: 1255
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:14 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Zcorp » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:42 pm UTC

sardia wrote:It's possible to slack off at multiple points in the game and work hard at other points, but I'm surprised that you've never 'slacked off' in any of your games. What's your mmr? Do you play with a party or alone? Are you claiming that nobody you've played against or with has ever picked a hero leading to a poor lineup? Or everyone plays their roles correctly? Its possible you won't notice poor decision making on the enemy team and attribute it to their lack of skill, but you never seen anyone pick the newest hero that just came out or random a bunch because they can't decide?

I hover around, give or take 300, 4.5k solo and 4k in party.
I play both in party and alone. I have friends with various skill levels, but only a few near my MMR some down in the 2k area.

I'm claiming that no one that I queue with has ever expressed that they are going into a game with the intention of not wanting to play well. With great frequency either my friends, myself or random people do not play well. I often get players, often captains, when solo queuing at 4.5k that don't know how to pick a team, know what our lanes should be nor do they understand basic strategy.

I guess I don't equate people playing poorly with not trying to play well. Maybe that is frequent cause, and a pretty shitty and rude thing to do 9 other people, especially in ranked matches. Mistakes are frequent and should be learned from but when you don't care about making them nor improving when you do that is an entirely different thing.

Avoid playing team based competitive games if you aren't in the mood to try to play well, you can slaughter bots if you want to play carelessly.

Easy example, there's no reason to pick more than x carries, but sometimes I pick ursa, a poor carry that is a 1 trick pony. When I go into the jungle without thinking, I end up forcing my team into having another solo lane, and not having a presence til rosh is down.

He isn't a poor carry, he just excels in more specific teams than others. In those teams he is one of the most effective carries in the game.

The problem with this statement is 'without thinking.' The amount of thought involved in 'with this team comp should I lane or jungle?' is quite minimal. If you aren't willing to do that amount maybe you shouldn't be playing dota at that moment so you aren't rude to 9 other people.

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 5725
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby sardia » Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:38 pm UTC

Look, I get it, people who don't try their hardest and learn from their mistakes in dota are annoying. But you have to realize that there are people who don't believe that winning isn't everything and that winning is fun. They might mask it with excuses, but they definitely won't be playing bots or quitting. You might be high enough mmr that you don't have to face those people anymore, but you can get pretty far playing subpar.

Do you think that cemper and I are right in that CM mode consist of different players than AP mode? Or that there's a difference in who plays them? I was hypothesizing there, so there's a good chance it's just natural variability during his games.

User avatar
PeteP
What the peck?
Posts: 1451
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:51 pm UTC

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby PeteP » Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:26 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:
sardia wrote:It's possible to slack off at multiple points in the game and work hard at other points, but I'm surprised that you've never 'slacked off' in any of your games. What's your mmr? Do you play with a party or alone? Are you claiming that nobody you've played against or with has ever picked a hero leading to a poor lineup? Or everyone plays their roles correctly? Its possible you won't notice poor decision making on the enemy team and attribute it to their lack of skill, but you never seen anyone pick the newest hero that just came out or random a bunch because they can't decide?

I hover around, give or take 300, 4.5k solo and 4k in party.
I play both in party and alone. I have friends with various skill levels, but only a few near my MMR some down in the 2k area.

I'm claiming that no one that I queue with has ever expressed that they are going into a game with the intention of not wanting to play well. With great frequency either my friends, myself or random people do not play well. I often get players, often captains, when solo queuing at 4.5k that don't know how to pick a team, know what our lanes should be nor do they understand basic strategy.

I guess I don't equate people playing poorly with not trying to play well. Maybe that is frequent cause, and a pretty shitty and rude thing to do 9 other people, especially in ranked matches. Mistakes are frequent and should be learned from but when you don't care about making them nor improving when you do that is an entirely different thing.

Avoid playing team based competitive games if you aren't in the mood to try to play well, you can slaughter bots if you want to play carelessly.

There is little surprise that you don't play with people who don't intend to play badly, because there is a big difference over prioritising fun and not wanting to win. People who play for fun usually still want to win. For instance I'm more a lol player and I sometimes like playing a lane combo with a friend of mine which isn't really optimal (to be honest against good and cautious players it has a good chance of failing utterly (it's blitzcrank+nautilus at the moment)), but if it works we find it quite fun. We still want to win and try to play as good as we can with the heroes we choose, but we didn't choose our heroes because we considered them to be the optimal choice for our team layout.
And I guarantee you that we aren't the only ones.

Zcorp
Posts: 1255
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:14 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Zcorp » Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:44 am UTC

PeteP wrote:There is little surprise that you don't play with people who don't intend to play badly, because there is a big difference over prioritising fun and not wanting to win. People who play for fun usually still want to win. For instance I'm more a lol player and I sometimes like playing a lane combo with a friend of mine which isn't really optimal (to be honest against good and cautious players it has a good chance of failing utterly (it's blitzcrank+nautilus at the moment)), but if it works we find it quite fun. We still want to win and try to play as good as we can with the heroes we choose, but we didn't choose our heroes because we considered them to be the optimal choice for our team layout.
And I guarantee you that we aren't the only ones.

Playing for fun and playing to win are not mutually exclusive, not even in terms of priority.

I haven't played LoL in a while and aspects of that game prevent some of the starker contrast of hero types that Dota has. However, if that is a lane equivalent to say a dual lane of Ursa and Phantom Assassin I think you are showing the other players in the game, and especially your teammates, quite a bit of disrespect. If you aren't going to consider the fun factor of others and are going to make decisions to potentially increase your fun while likely decreasing theirs...I don't know what the call that but rude. You are choosing to play a game with a team, part of that is respecting their time and effort.

This is not to say that you should be picking the exact same heroes every game. Dota designers have worked hard to increase the number viable picks and team compositions. At TI3 we saw 90ish of the 100ish heroes see action. Pretty much all of the dota heroes are valid picks, it is just a matter of putting them in teams they work with.
Last edited by Zcorp on Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:25 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
cemper93
Posts: 209
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:35 pm UTC
Location: `pwd`

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby cemper93 » Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:52 am UTC

It's more of a Lina + CM lane, actually. Two supports, not two carries.

Zcorp
Posts: 1255
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:14 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Zcorp » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:46 am UTC

cemper93 wrote:It's more of a Lina + CM lane, actually. Two supports, not two carries.

Fine lane then in the right situation. Against a tri it would be terrible but it is actually a very strong dual lane against a offlane solo, which could give your team the option to jungle a hero while you farm that Lina in lane.

User avatar
PeteP
What the peck?
Posts: 1451
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:51 pm UTC

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby PeteP » Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:26 am UTC

And I entirely disagree with your stance, so we will never agree there. Games are about entertainment, that even low level players are sometimes fixated with following a Meta which they base on the balance between much better players is their decision but others shouldn't let a minority degrade the game. These people can go play ranked or get a team. Or get better since if the meta adherence leads to more success one should be grouped with others who do that anyway. But yeah since I prefer lol anyway that is the problem of the dota community.

(Also support might be misleading, they can take a support roll but here Nautilus is a tanky bruiser he can throw an anchor which pulls him and the enemy together and he has an aoe slow with damage, Blitzcrank can pull people to himself, move and hit faster, short stun + damage, and an aoe silence+damage ulti. Basically as a lane it's about getting an non cautious enemy to you and not letting him get away.)

Zcorp
Posts: 1255
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:14 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Zcorp » Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:44 am UTC

PeteP wrote:And I entirely disagree with your stance, so we will never agree there. Games are about entertainment, that even low level players are sometimes fixated with following a Meta which they base on the balance between much better players is their decision but others shouldn't let a minority degrade the game.

I'm not sure what you are saying here.

Or get better since if the meta adherence leads to more success one should be grouped with others who do that anyway.

The 'meta' -which really just means trends in picks that the leading players have- rarely leads to more successes. Sometimes it has to do with a balance issue on a power side or strategy side but most of the time it is just player comfort, false perceptions, poor strategic minds, lack of experimentation or a combination of some or all of the previous. I've never brought up trends nor meta in this at all. So I'm confused why you are focusing on that.

User avatar
felltir
has a sniper scope and a trigger finger.
Posts: 2491
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:01 pm UTC
Location: Back in't home town. Never at home.
Contact:

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby felltir » Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:06 am UTC

I had a pretty awesome game as Centaur Warrunner yesterday. Very fun.
Spoiler:
RoadieRich wrote:He's a super flexible furry martial artist from London. She is a Rabbit breeding mad scientist from Michigan. They fight crime!
The Great Hippo wrote:I THINK THE SOLAR SYSTEM MIGHT BE AN ATOM OF OXYGEN.


Blog

he/him/his

User avatar
Sytri
Posts: 451
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:00 am UTC
Location: Reading, UK

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Sytri » Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:51 am UTC

Has something changed in the game in the last month or two? I've been playing NP (Furion) and I've been going about my usual of jungling to get midas gloves and then getting all the gold to end up with disruptor, maelstrom maelstroms upgrade that escapes me and then pushing everywhere. The last few games I've played its seeming a much better idea to go power treads - disruptor - maelstrom. Feels like gaining gold is taking a longer time. Is it just me being bad?
Apathy will kill us all. Or not. Whatever.

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 5725
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby sardia » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:17 pm UTC

Sytri wrote:Has something changed in the game in the last month or two? I've been playing NP (Furion) and I've been going about my usual of jungling to get midas gloves and then getting all the gold to end up with disruptor, maelstrom maelstroms upgrade that escapes me and then pushing everywhere. The last few games I've played its seeming a much better idea to go power treads - disruptor - maelstrom. Feels like gaining gold is taking a longer time. Is it just me being bad?

Midas costs more. I don't know about furion, but anyone who jungles get nerfed a bit due to that, and IIRC, a minor nerf to the xp from certain camps.

User avatar
Sytri
Posts: 451
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:00 am UTC
Location: Reading, UK

Re: Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Postby Sytri » Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:27 am UTC

sardia wrote:
Sytri wrote:Has something changed in the game in the last month or two? I've been playing NP (Furion) and I've been going about my usual of jungling to get midas gloves and then getting all the gold to end up with disruptor, maelstrom maelstroms upgrade that escapes me and then pushing everywhere. The last few games I've played its seeming a much better idea to go power treads - disruptor - maelstrom. Feels like gaining gold is taking a longer time. Is it just me being bad?

Midas costs more. I don't know about furion, but anyone who jungles get nerfed a bit due to that, and IIRC, a minor nerf to the xp from certain camps.


So their aiming for less jungling or less jungling straight to midas then. OK, I'll stick to my new pattern then, it seemed to do well and I'm getting the hang of split pushing now.
Apathy will kill us all. Or not. Whatever.


Return to “Gaming”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests