Dota 2 : Dota Harder

Of the Tabletop, and other, lesser varieties.

Moderators: SecondTalon, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
Menacing Spike
Posts: 2982
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:25 pm UTC
Location: Fighting the Zombie.

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Menacing Spike » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:23 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:Customized hot keys is quite a bit different than macros.


Customkeys were in the game, google up "customkeys.txt". There was an option you could check in the WC3 menu to enable them and all. I had thousands of games with those lovelies enabled. Custom item hotkeys however are an unfair advantage using external software. It's not as bad as macros, but I call that cheating.

Zcorp
Posts: 1255
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:14 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Zcorp » Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:40 am UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:
Zcorp wrote:Customized hot keys is quite a bit different than macros.


Customkeys were in the game, google up "customkeys.txt". There was an option you could check in the WC3 menu to enable them and all. I had thousands of games with those lovelies enabled. Custom item hotkeys however are an unfair advantage using external software. It's not as bad as macros, but I call that cheating.

Call it what you want I suppose. Tournament organizers, the dota dev team and valve disagree with you. What you want to call it seems to matter not at all.

User avatar
Adacore
Posts: 2755
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:35 pm UTC
Location: 한국 창원

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Adacore » Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:57 am UTC

It's a tricky area. I've played games that don't support 5-button mice, and used my mouse driver settings to rebind mouse buttons 4 and 5 to keyboard strokes for the functions I want in the game. So if power is activated by hitting 'f', for example, I could bind mouse4 to 'f' with the logitech software that came with the mouse, and then activate that power by hitting my mouse thumb button - is that cheating? I never even considered that it might be before now, in honesty.

User avatar
ElectricHaze
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 2:54 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby ElectricHaze » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:53 am UTC

Hey everyone, I have several spare DotA 2 invites to give out if anyone wants them.

Also I play with an inhouse leage taw.net we have over 100 members in our DotA 2 division, and we are currently in the middle of a recruitment drive, so if anyone is looking to get an invite add me on steam: yibshinyabshin and ask me about it, I'll be happy to invite you, and anyone with the game who is looking for a fun place to play and hang out should check out our clan and join up, and if you decide to do that just be sure to say in your application to the site that ElectricHaze recruited you.
Who has never killed an hour? Not casually or without thought, but carefully: a premeditated murder of minutes.

ProZac
Posts: 891
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 3:57 pm UTC

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby ProZac » Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:11 pm UTC

I've always wanted to give it a shot, never got any invites despite signing up. As a LoL player... what am I getting myself into here? I understand you lose gold on death, there is creep deny. Not sure how Jungle works still, or objectives. Noticed the map seems slightly different. I think the thing that concerns me most is knowing I'm not going to understand any champs. Burden of knowledge sucks.

User avatar
Menacing Spike
Posts: 2982
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:25 pm UTC
Location: Fighting the Zombie.

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Menacing Spike » Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:17 pm UTC

ProZac wrote:I've always wanted to give it a shot, never got any invites despite signing up. As a LoL player... what am I getting myself into here? I understand you lose gold on death, there is creep deny. Not sure how Jungle works still, or objectives. Noticed the map seems slightly different. I think the thing that concerns me most is knowing I'm not going to understand any champs. Burden of knowledge sucks.


It's basically far more complex but you should feel at home in low-ranked games.

Check up one of the countless newbie guides I guess.

Dota 2 is far better at the "burden of knowledge" thing than Dota 1 because you can view descriptions of enemy abilities and what damage killed you etc. For instance you see "rupture" from "bloodseeker" did most of the damage, you click on the guy, read his ultimate, and behold, it does a lot of damage if you move. Now you'll know.

The game doesn't tell you about micro and wood paths and warding and teamwork and juking etc but don't worry, everyone's terrible.

User avatar
ElectricHaze
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 2:54 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby ElectricHaze » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:36 pm UTC

ProZac wrote:I've always wanted to give it a shot, never got any invites despite signing up. As a LoL player... what am I getting myself into here? I understand you lose gold on death, there is creep deny. Not sure how Jungle works still, or objectives. Noticed the map seems slightly different. I think the thing that concerns me most is knowing I'm not going to understand any champs. Burden of knowledge sucks.


The heroes are easy enough to understand if you are coming from LoL. I think the biggest difference there is that abilities in DotA are more important, from what I have seen in LoL, abilities are pretty spammable, but in DotA you generally want to hold on to your abilities and use them at the right moments and on the right heroes in a fight. If you are using abilities all the time to harass and farm creeps you might find yourself in a situation where the lane is pushed too far for you to get xp and gold and be safe, or without mana in an important fight.

Creep denying is an added depth, but it doesn't change much at the lower levels, and is more of something you do when you can and when you notice a deniable creep, but if you want to be really good it is important for keeping the creep waves meeting at the same place (lane control) and for gaining an edge over your opponents in lane by denying them some gold and xp.

Losing gold on death is sort of a big thing, as you start out you are probably going to feel really poor if you are dying a lot. You won't be able to afford much gear, etc. but I think it is a really important mechanic for timing ganks on carries before they get big items to set them back, and keep them trying to farm instead of joining in teamfights and swinging the battles.

Anyways here is a good guide: http://www.purgegamers.com/welcome-to-d ... KQas4ffgfw
That one has been around for a long time, and is probably one of the best written guides for new players.
Who has never killed an hour? Not casually or without thought, but carefully: a premeditated murder of minutes.

Zcorp
Posts: 1255
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:14 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Zcorp » Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:18 pm UTC

ElectricHaze wrote:I think the biggest difference there is that abilities in DotA are more important, from what I have seen in LoL, abilities are pretty spammable, but in DotA you generally want to hold on to your abilities and use them at the right moments and on the right heroes in a fight. If you are using abilities all the time to harass and farm creeps you might find yourself in a situation where the lane is pushed too far for you to get xp and gold and be safe, or without mana in an important fight.

Additionally a significant amount of items have an active component to them. I haven't played or followed LoL much in the last 2 years but I don't believe Riot ever really added active things to their items. Due to these active components you will end up having a lot more abilities than you have in LoL. Learning what items to purchase is a greater significance in DotA than it is in LoL.

User avatar
Menacing Spike
Posts: 2982
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:25 pm UTC
Location: Fighting the Zombie.

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Menacing Spike » Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:41 am UTC

This is merely a bracer of fur. It has no particular aspect of interest and offers no magical protections. Still, it bears a great name and in so doing illustrates the hollowness of baseless pride.


That feels like a dig at their own cosmetics...

User avatar
SuperTD
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:10 pm UTC
Location: Cardiff

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby SuperTD » Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:25 am UTC

Zcorp wrote:Additionally a significant amount of items have an active component to them. I haven't played or followed LoL much in the last 2 years but I don't believe Riot ever really added active things to their items. Due to these active components you will end up having a lot more abilities than you have in LoL. Learning what items to purchase is a greater significance in DotA than it is in LoL.

There are quite a few active component items in LoL-they've added a lot of new items in over the past 2 years, and a good proportion of them have active effects. My problem is that in the heat of a battle, I tend to forget I have these extremely useful extra abilities, and die far more often than I need to...
nightlina wrote:Damn.. if there was a cannon ball thrown for every time someone was wrong on the internet.. well... I don't think we'd have enough cannon balls!

User avatar
Sephyron
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:38 pm UTC

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Sephyron » Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:55 am UTC

Have a bunch of extra DOTA2 keys on Steam if anyone wants one.

User avatar
Christophoros
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:01 pm UTC
Location: The realm of the undead
Contact:

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Christophoros » Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:53 pm UTC

SuperTD wrote:
Zcorp wrote:Additionally a significant amount of items have an active component to them. I haven't played or followed LoL much in the last 2 years but I don't believe Riot ever really added active things to their items. Due to these active components you will end up having a lot more abilities than you have in LoL. Learning what items to purchase is a greater significance in DotA than it is in LoL.

There are quite a few active component items in LoL-they've added a lot of new items in over the past 2 years, and a good proportion of them have active effects. My problem is that in the heat of a battle, I tend to forget I have these extremely useful extra abilities, and die far more often than I need to...


STD got there before me. Still, from what I remember of DotA (I only played the original, and haven't played it for about 5 years), there are fewer actives that have such a substantial impact on the game. No item in LoL will give you the ability to teleport or blink for example, or become completely invulnerable to all harmful magic for 8-10 seconds while you stomp through the entire team.

Generally, LoL seems to be less swingy than the DotAs. Abilities are weaker but more reliably available.

Having come from LoL and looked at some DotA abilities I was horrified. WTF 5 second stun?
"Analogies in writing are like feathers on a snake."

"Exaggeration is a billion times worse than understatement."

Never Forget

User avatar
Ixtellor
There are like 4 posters on XKCD that no more about ...
Posts: 3112
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:31 pm UTC

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Ixtellor » Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:00 pm UTC

I have not played Dota in over a year, but I recall it being far less lethal than LoL inspite of the insane abilities. Yes a fed AM or troll could pound people down, but I don't recall nearly as many deaths or kills in a Dota game. Probably because the rewards/penalties were far greater for kills and I don't recall the amazing comebacks that frequently occur in LoL.
The Revolution will not be Twitterized.

User avatar
Christophoros
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:01 pm UTC
Location: The realm of the undead
Contact:

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Christophoros » Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:14 pm UTC

Really? I've always fealt LoL is less lethal. I tried some HoN recently, which is just reskinned DotA, and it seemed like the damages were a lot higher, proportionally. Abilities would regularly have longer range than you could see, and would kill you from off screen. Escaping from 2-man ganks was significantly harder - in LoL escaping from a 2 man gank is not generally impossible, though you will end up paying for it and going home anyway.

Of course, it could just be that I didn't know what I was up against, so had no idea how to counter it.
"Analogies in writing are like feathers on a snake."

"Exaggeration is a billion times worse than understatement."

Never Forget

User avatar
Menacing Spike
Posts: 2982
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:25 pm UTC
Location: Fighting the Zombie.

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Menacing Spike » Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:44 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:I have not played Dota in over a year, but I recall it being far less lethal than LoL inspite of the insane abilities. Yes a fed AM or troll could pound people down, but I don't recall nearly as many deaths or kills in a Dota game. Probably because the rewards/penalties were far greater for kills and I don't recall the amazing comebacks that frequently occur in LoL.


There's a screenshot floating around of a pro LoL game with like 2 kills after 50 minutes.

It might be that you're in a lower bracket and people are way less aggressive than average?

User avatar
Ixtellor
There are like 4 posters on XKCD that no more about ...
Posts: 3112
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:31 pm UTC

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Ixtellor » Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:56 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:There's a screenshot floating around of a pro LoL game with like 2 kills after 50 minutes.

It might be that you're in a lower bracket and people are way less aggressive than average?


Pro = pre-made good players. They put out a million wards and play extremely cautiously. I don't play ranked matches so my teams are generally 10 random people of varying skill level with many not believing in teamwork. (level 30)

Dota = same thing, unskilled players unless you do a premade invite only match (at least that's how it was when I played Dota).

When I say less lethal, I just don't recall having games with 30 kills or 15 deaths, which I do see in LoL. But I do remember lots of solo dota kills, again I think it just might be that the games ended quicker or something because if you let a Dota hero go 10-0 they are going to wreck you and you probably can not come back from that.
A fed void = gg. Or back in the day when a guinsoo Dryad = gg.
The Revolution will not be Twitterized.

User avatar
Menacing Spike
Posts: 2982
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:25 pm UTC
Location: Fighting the Zombie.

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Menacing Spike » Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:15 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:
Menacing Spike wrote:When I say less lethal, I just don't recall having games with 30 kills or 15 deaths


Huh. Looking at my first page of match history (in a "mediocre, people don't always ward" bracket), I have a 22 kills game, several 14-15 kills ones, and several 12-13 death ones (also amusingly a 4/19 magnus where we won a 40/66 game through superior teamwork - I always died after initiating, but teammates were able to capitalize on it). There's also a 31 assists bounty hunter on page 2 (Track's cool - we ended with a 26 000 gold advantage with equal kills).

Zcorp
Posts: 1255
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:14 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Zcorp » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:12 am UTC

Ixtellor wrote:When I say less lethal, I just don't recall having games with 30 kills or 15 deaths, which I do see in LoL. But I do remember lots of solo dota kills, again I think it just might be that the games ended quicker or something because if you let a Dota hero go 10-0 they are going to wreck you and you probably can not come back from that.
A fed void = gg. Or back in the day when a guinsoo Dryad = gg.

The number of kills in Dota is consistently 2-3x as many as there are in LoL games past entry level match making. Go watch the International games vs LoL finals or the dreamhack games.

Of course these are top end players for both games but this is generally true of the majority of games when comparing them.

Iceman
Posts: 667
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:41 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Iceman » Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:43 pm UTC

Yeah, my experience is the same..LoL is sooooooo slow,

DotA seems to average like 2 kills per minute. LoL games i played were 0.5 or 1 kill per minute, and the characters almost all have extra escapes and stuff.

I never played original DotA, but comparing LoL to DotA, LoL just seems like a snoozefest and there's just so much less depth to it.

User avatar
Christophoros
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:01 pm UTC
Location: The realm of the undead
Contact:

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Christophoros » Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:12 pm UTC

Fewer kills != less depth.

Slower != worse.

I agree that in LoL it is harder to get kills - it is slightly slower, so you have more of a chance to react, and there are more escape mechanisms. This means that if your opponent is playing sensibly, it is very hard to secure a kill on your own. That's why it's a team game.

In DotA, the Damage:Health ratio is skewed more heavily towards damage, so it's easier to grab a kill on your own, before the opponent has a chance to react to you.

Is there a specific DotA vs LoL thread? It seems like there should be, since these comparisons have come up in both individual game threads.
"Analogies in writing are like feathers on a snake."

"Exaggeration is a billion times worse than understatement."

Never Forget

Iceman
Posts: 667
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:41 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Iceman » Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:20 pm UTC

I think it's hard to deny that DotA does have more depth though.

The skills are more synergistic, The Deny mechanism and creep and camp pulling is much more in depth, high ground/low ground mechanics, tree depletion and respawn; just everything about it has more depth to it.

I wasn't simply saying that less kills was less depth...just that it has less kills, it's much slower paced AND it has considerably less depth.

User avatar
Menacing Spike
Posts: 2982
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:25 pm UTC
Location: Fighting the Zombie.

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Menacing Spike » Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:44 pm UTC

Iceman wrote:I think it's hard to deny that DotA does have more depth though.


I didn't play LoL long enough to have a really valid opinion, but it did feel that way ("What, you can't even deselect your hero? Really?")

User avatar
Jesse
Vocal Terrorist
Posts: 8635
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:33 pm UTC
Location: Basingstoke, England.
Contact:

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Jesse » Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:32 pm UTC

Went 35/0 with Riki last night. Made some Russians very mad, and had the one guy on our team who didn't know me telling me it was "like playing with a pro." (It wasn't though, I only had 94 last hits).

User avatar
Menacing Spike
Posts: 2982
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:25 pm UTC
Location: Fighting the Zombie.

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Menacing Spike » Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:05 pm UTC

Jesse wrote:(It wasn't though, I only had 94 last hits).


Hey, as long as you are winning the game...
You could have 200 denies; but if you denied those creeps out of xp range of their heroes while the creeps in question were pushing you were worst than useless. Metrics are to be taken with caution.
For instance, a pudge could save your fed faceless with a hook; this would bring him shit-all in points, but possibly turn the game. Same with stuff like wards, rune control (can spiderites still destroy runes in Dota 2?), babysitting...

Oh and here's a silly screenshot I found a while ago. Oh, Bnet. Those were the days.

Image

User avatar
Kag
Posts: 1214
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:56 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Kag » Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:37 am UTC

Iceman wrote:The skills are more synergistic, The Deny mechanism and creep and camp pulling is much more in depth, high ground/low ground mechanics, tree depletion and respawn; just everything about it has more depth to it.


That's not really how depth works. A convincing argument that one game has more strategic depth would require an incredible amount of detailed effort. As a result, "it has more depth" is just a buzzword to make your preference sound more authoritative.
The Great Hippo wrote:I am starting to regret having used 'goat-fucker' in this context.

User avatar
DaBigCheez
Posts: 833
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:03 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby DaBigCheez » Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:38 pm UTC

Kag wrote:
Iceman wrote:The skills are more synergistic, The Deny mechanism and creep and camp pulling is much more in depth, high ground/low ground mechanics, tree depletion and respawn; just everything about it has more depth to it.


That's not really how depth works. A convincing argument that one game has more strategic depth would require an incredible amount of detailed effort. As a result, "it has more depth" is just a buzzword to make your preference sound more authoritative.

Agreed; Dota 2 may well be strategically deeper than LoL, but pointing out that there's additional mechanics doesn't necessarily support that argument (see also the discussions of Chess vs. Go)
existential_elevator wrote:It's like a jigsaw puzzle of Hitler pissing on Mother Theresa. No individual piece is offensive, but together...

If you think hot women have it easy because everyone wants to have sex at them, you're both wrong and also the reason you're wrong.

Zcorp
Posts: 1255
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:14 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Zcorp » Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:46 am UTC

DaBigCheez wrote:
Kag wrote:
Iceman wrote:The skills are more synergistic, The Deny mechanism and creep and camp pulling is much more in depth, high ground/low ground mechanics, tree depletion and respawn; just everything about it has more depth to it.


That's not really how depth works. A convincing argument that one game has more strategic depth would require an incredible amount of detailed effort. As a result, "it has more depth" is just a buzzword to make your preference sound more authoritative.

Agreed; Dota 2 may well be strategically deeper than LoL, but pointing out that there's additional mechanics doesn't necessarily support that argument (see also the discussions of Chess vs. Go)

In this case each of those mechanics do add some depth, but they are not the primary aspects of why dota is deeper strategically and tactically. The flaw in the idea that depth is used to make a preference sound superior is that depth doesn't mean better. Just better for some goals. Dota2 (really dota) has much greater depth than LoL but dota2 might not ever reach the popularity of LoL. Games focused toward the majority aren't looking for depth, as depth - in general and dota is a bit of an exception - scares away casual players.

User avatar
Kag
Posts: 1214
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:56 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Kag » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:02 am UTC

Zcorp wrote:Dota2 (really dota) has much greater depth than LoL


I continue to strongly doubt that you understand both games well enough to reliably claim this. Especially when you make no argument whatsoever.

depth scares away casual players.


Wrong. Needless complexity, which does not add depth, and which both DotA and LoL have in spades, is what makes a game less accessible.
The Great Hippo wrote:I am starting to regret having used 'goat-fucker' in this context.

User avatar
Christophoros
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:01 pm UTC
Location: The realm of the undead
Contact:

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Christophoros » Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:13 pm UTC

Iceman wrote:I think it's hard to deny that DotA does have more depth though.

The skills are more synergistic, The Deny mechanism and creep and camp pulling is much more in depth, high ground/low ground mechanics, tree depletion and respawn; just everything about it has more depth to it.

I wasn't simply saying that less kills was less depth...just that it has less kills, it's much slower paced AND it has considerably less depth.

You're just listing the mechanics that DotA has that LoL doesn't. I could do the same the other way around:
Brush, Inhibitor (Rax) respawn, creeps which give you buffs, champions having passive abilities. Each game has mechanics that the other does not - that's what makes them different games. I don't see an argument why DotA's extra mechanics give it extra depth, while LoL's do not. The key difference I can see is that the extra mechanics in DotA are generally less accessible to newer players. Are you saying that making a game inaccessible to new players is what constitutes depth? Because if so, I think depth is a bad thing.
"Analogies in writing are like feathers on a snake."

"Exaggeration is a billion times worse than understatement."

Never Forget

Iceman
Posts: 667
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:41 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Iceman » Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:38 pm UTC

Christophoros wrote:
Iceman wrote:I think it's hard to deny that DotA does have more depth though.

The skills are more synergistic, The Deny mechanism and creep and camp pulling is much more in depth, high ground/low ground mechanics, tree depletion and respawn; just everything about it has more depth to it.

I wasn't simply saying that less kills was less depth...just that it has less kills, it's much slower paced AND it has considerably less depth.

You're just listing the mechanics that DotA has that LoL doesn't. I could do the same the other way around:
Brush, Inhibitor (Rax) respawn, creeps which give you buffs, champions having passive abilities. Each game has mechanics that the other does not - that's what makes them different games. I don't see an argument why DotA's extra mechanics give it extra depth, while LoL's do not. The key difference I can see is that the extra mechanics in DotA are generally less accessible to newer players. Are you saying that making a game inaccessible to new players is what constitutes depth? Because if so, I think depth is a bad thing.


There is Brush and there are Heroes with Passive Abilities.

Instead of Creep buffs, yes there's Runes and the Aegis drop.

The respawning inhibitor is really the only thing I'm aware LoL 'has' that DotA doesn't. (And I think that mechanic detracts from spectator experience since that team just turtles up)

I didn't really think there'd be any honest debate over this, I've never actually heard anyone argue LoL is not a bit more shallow than DotA. There's elements in strategy, positioning, mechanics and planning that apply to one game and not the other. DotA has virtually every element LoL has, and then has several additional ones which allow for strategic choices to be made.

If that's not depth, then I don't think the word has a meaning.

I do think those things are still incredibly Simple mechanics. I think MOBAs in general have the depth of a kiddie pool, I think they're still both very noob-friendly games and you can play just fine without knowing all the details yet and just learn them over time.

But concepts like denies, or high ground, Trees..it's pretty intuitive, it's not that complicated an idea where it would keep people out of the game.

We're not talking about SC2 or something actually difficult, it's still just a game where you play as 1 unit with 4 abilties. Neither of them are that complicated a concept.
Anyone who'd be confused at the 'complexity' of either LoL or DotA was probably upset with more than one colour of Angry Bird.

Zcorp
Posts: 1255
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:14 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Zcorp » Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:27 pm UTC

Kag wrote:
depth scares away casual players.


Wrong. Needless complexity, which does not add depth, and which both DotA and LoL have in spades, is what makes a game less accessible.

Who spoke of accessibility? Dota is probably the least accessible computer game/mod ever created. Although things can be accessible and deep.

Depth scares casual game players away, that same depth also can create a strong and meaningful experience and community. The relationship of chess vs checkers is a great example of this.

Iceman
Posts: 667
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:41 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Iceman » Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:38 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:
Kag wrote:
depth scares away casual players.


Wrong. Needless complexity, which does not add depth, and which both DotA and LoL have in spades, is what makes a game less accessible.

Who spoke of accessibility? Dota is probably the least accessible computer game ever created. Although things can be accessible and deep.

Depth scares casual game players away, that same depth also can create a strong and meaningful experience and community. The relationship of chess vs checkers is a great example of this.


I don't think depth scares people, but initial difficulty does.

Chess has tremendous depth, but it's not that difficult. There's basically 6 pieces and 3 special situations and that's the entire ruleset.

I'm not clear on why you'd say DotA is inaccessable though?

User avatar
Kag
Posts: 1214
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:56 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Kag » Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:53 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:Who spoke of accessibility? Dota is probably the least accessible computer game/mod ever created.


Not scaring away casual players is kind of what accessibility is. So, you did.

Also, no, that crown's gotta go to a fighting game.

Iceman wrote:you play as 1 unit with 4 abilties.


And to be even remotely competent, you need to understand the abilities of 9 other dudes, an entire system of rpg stats and items, etc. Starcraft is a more technically demanding and strategically interesting game, but it's a lot more straightforward about damn near everything.
The Great Hippo wrote:I am starting to regret having used 'goat-fucker' in this context.

Iceman
Posts: 667
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:41 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Iceman » Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:43 pm UTC

Kag wrote:
Iceman wrote:you play as 1 unit with 4 abilties.


And to be even remotely competent, you need to understand the abilities of 9 other dudes, an entire system of rpg stats and items, etc. Starcraft is a more technically demanding and strategically interesting game, but it's a lot more straightforward about damn near everything.


The reality is that's not true though. To be GOOD you need to know what abilities the other guys have, but its not a pre-requisite to play the game at a low level.
You can get someone who's never played it, tell them to play Sniper and shoot people and little dudes, and they'll be fine, and they'll learn it by playing it...the fat guy hooks me and that Blue girl shoots me with ice etc...

I would say most people actively playing do not really know the abilties of the heroes, may have a sense of one ability or ulti of most of them.

That's quite playable as a new player and you'll just learn as you go.

Something like an SC2, there's a big learning curve for your own tech trees and how your resources work and abilties on many of your own units. It's definitely more daunting to a brand new player.

You've got your games like Counter strike, it's super obvious how to play... LoL/DotA/HoN it's pretty intuitive and you learn as you go..RTS you probably want to do a tutorial, campaign or read a little first...then something like Civilization or somplex empire building thing you'll need to know or learn more before you're really playing it.

As you go up in skill levels, things will get more complicated for all games. But I think there's a point in the Mobas where that's basically all the actual 'knowledge' you need, while in an SC2 you can always know more builds, map nuances and things like that. I think DotA/LoL hit a physical skill and knowledge cap but its your teamwork and tactics that win. In SC2 there's just so many moving parts, there just not really a physical skill cap and rarely any knowledge cap. I'd also say the corrolary to knowing the skills of the other 9 players is on par with knowing what a 3rd gas for Protoss at 7:10 means, or knowing what seeing 5 infestors instead of 6 at 13:20 means etc... They're both just about knowing how your opponent works and have have high levels of complexity.


But when talking about initial difficulty, we're not really talking about higher level play, just being able to play a reasonable game and there's few barriers to the in MOBAs which is part of their mass appeal, anyone can invite their friends to play and explain it pretty fast.

User avatar
Christophoros
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:01 pm UTC
Location: The realm of the undead
Contact:

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Christophoros » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:33 pm UTC

Iceman wrote:There is Brush and there are Heroes with Passive Abilities.

Instead of Creep buffs, yes there's Runes and the Aegis drop.

The respawning inhibitor is really the only thing I'm aware LoL 'has' that DotA doesn't. (And I think that mechanic detracts from spectator experience since that team just turtles up)

My error there then, I apologise. I was under the impression that DotA2 was just a reskinned DotA. In the interest of openness, I haven't played DotA for a couple of years, so I don't know what new has come in. Though, saying that respawning inhibitors means that the team just turtles up is very short sighted. If anything, being down an inhibitor encourages aggressive play, keeping the enemy from capitalising on their gain. If you just turtle, they will sit back and farm all three lanes and both jungles.

You can get someone who's never played it, tell them to play Sniper and shoot people and little dudes, and they'll be fine, and they'll learn it by playing it...the fat guy hooks me and that Blue girl shoots me with ice etc...

After it's happened several times, yes. They'll be more concerned with thinking about what they're doing themselves than thinking about what the other guys are doing. Especially if it's more than 1v1 - teamfights are fast, bloody and confusing, and you have to know exactly which particle effects mean what to make any real tactical choices. I speak for LoL, but given that DotA is faster, I assume that it's a bigger problem there.

I would say most people actively playing do not really know the abilties of the heroes, may have a sense of one ability or ulti of most of them.

Here is where I beg to differ. I would expect most relatively experienced players (maybe 500+ games?) to know every hero's abilities instinctively, along with a rough knowledge of range, time delays on casting and ways that they combo. Even middling players (maybe 250+ games) will know this for the most commonly played heroes. Learning the tactics to counter those abilities, especially the way two hero's abilities work together, takes a lot longer.

But then, maybe that's just me. Having played a couple of thousand games of LoL, and having that knowledge instinctively, I felt its absence severely when I played a bit of HoN at a LAN party. Presumably I didn't feel the same way when I started LoL, or I wouldn't have stuck at it.

I was going to stop there, but this bit made me want to put in just one more line:
But concepts like denies, or high ground, Trees..it's pretty intuitive, it's not that complicated an idea where it would keep people out of the game.

Shooting your own people is intuitive? Learning the various different shortcuts through trees, which are completely invisible and will absolutely save your life every time if the other guy doesn't know them inside out is intuitive? I think not.
"Analogies in writing are like feathers on a snake."

"Exaggeration is a billion times worse than understatement."

Never Forget

Zcorp
Posts: 1255
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:14 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Zcorp » Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:52 am UTC

Kag wrote:
Zcorp wrote:Who spoke of accessibility? Dota is probably the least accessible computer game/mod ever created.


Not scaring away casual players is kind of what accessibility is. So, you did.

No, I spoke of depth. Do you need me to define accessibility for you?


Iceman wrote:The reality is that's not true though. To be GOOD you need to know what abilities the other guys have, but its not a pre-requisite to play the game at a low level.
You can get someone who's never played it, tell them to play Sniper and shoot people and little dudes, and they'll be fine, and they'll learn it by playing it...the fat guy hooks me and that Blue girl shoots me with ice etc...


Something like an SC2, there's a big learning curve for your own tech trees and how your resources work and abilties on many of your own units. It's definitely more daunting to a brand new player.

Except the 'etc' isn't trivial. It is 4 abilities on 110 heroes. Many of those abilities have multiple components. Pudge isn't just a fat guy that hooks you. He is a fat guy that hooks you and many factors play in to how to play with and against this ability (such as night time), that has a AoE DPS toggle that also slows and a 3 second disable that also goes through magic immune. Each aspect of each of those abilities is important. Then not only do you need to understand the mechanics of these but recognize them visually.

To even learn the over 440 abilities takes a lot more investment than learning a few tech trees. All of the discrete relationships between units that are in SC2 are also in dota, differences in damage, attack speed, move speed, armor and more. Plus you won't consistently be playing against the same enemy units so learning these other variables isn't as easy as it would be in SC2.

But maybe we have a different understanding of what 'playing the game at a low level is.'

Until you understand all the pieces in chess and how they move and interact I'd hardly call you a playing it to just move pieces around and hope it works out and that they are legal. In much the same way I'd say you aren't really playing dota until you have a strong understanding of the game rules, game board and game pieces. Until then you are just learning to play it.

User avatar
Menacing Spike
Posts: 2982
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:25 pm UTC
Location: Fighting the Zombie.

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Menacing Spike » Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:37 am UTC

Zcorp wrote: Pudge isn't just a fat guy that hooks you. He is a fat guy that hooks you and many factors play in to how to play with and against this ability (such as night time), that has a AoE DPS toggle that also slows and a 3 second disable that also goes through magic immune.


You also need to know basic tactics like "pudge has a ton of hp and is magic-resilient, and he casted all his abilities - while he's in the yellow, I'd better nuke that obsidian destroyer in the green".

User avatar
Kag
Posts: 1214
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:56 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Kag » Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:21 am UTC

Zcorp wrote:No, I spoke of depth. Do you need me to define accessibility for you?


No, but I need you to stop being condescending, right now. Anyway, you're missing the point, which is that it is an observable fact that depth doesn't scare away casual players. Whether or not you call that accessibility is totally irrelevant.

By the way, what's a situation where being able to deny lets you make a strategic decision?
The Great Hippo wrote:I am starting to regret having used 'goat-fucker' in this context.

User avatar
Jesse
Vocal Terrorist
Posts: 8635
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:33 pm UTC
Location: Basingstoke, England.
Contact:

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Jesse » Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:53 am UTC

Kag wrote:
Zcorp wrote:No, I spoke of depth. Do you need me to define accessibility for you?

By the way, what's a situation where being able to deny lets you make a strategic decision?


Every single time it's available. Are you choosing to deny over getting a last hit, if you're a melee character is the creep in a good position or are you going to eat a right-click/spell to do it, are you sure your opponent is in XP range, are they actively trying to push the lane to chip away at your tower?

User avatar
Kag
Posts: 1214
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:56 am UTC

Re: Dota 2 Beta

Postby Kag » Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:09 am UTC

Those are parameters to a math problem. As in, all of the information I need to know whether or not denying is objectively the right move is available, I just have to do the calculation.
The Great Hippo wrote:I am starting to regret having used 'goat-fucker' in this context.


Return to “Gaming”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests