Crusader Kings 2

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Vaniver
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby Vaniver » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:29 pm UTC

So, I recently started playing Ironman to get the achievements, and I'm noticing how much I relied on loading to recover from dumb accidents (like dismissing mercenaries I desperately wanted to keep around, wasting hundreds of gold, or speeding up the timer, so I missed the end date for launching my once-in-a-lifetime invasion) or dumb luck (like the heir to the Danish throne who simply would not die, even after over a decade of plots at ~200%).

But recovering from failed plans is interesting (as they say in Dwarf Fortress, losing is fun!). My original character, the Norse singleton count in Nantes, who had become the king of Bertangaland, had an infant son that was set up as the duke of Jamtland, I think, who was perpetually third in line to the Duchy of Sjaelland, which was large enough to be Denmark but which hadn't been formed yet, since I kept killing the sons that slid in front of him. (I had also subjugated the Duke of Svijod, which was large enough to form the kingdom.) If I had managed to get him the duchy before it had formed, then I would have control over those three kingdoms, which was also 2 of the 3 holy sites necessary to reform the Norse religion. Not sure if I could have also gotten Norway, which would have allowed the empire of Scandinavia.

I do wonder the easiest way to go from count to emperor in one life (my guy lived to ~80, so I think if I had planned better I could have done it on him. Sigh.). It probably involves some high-intrigue character who's a count who's in line for a duchy in the HRE, since I've found being a high-intrigue duke is a recipe for getting appointed the spymaster of the HRE, which then allows you to kill the emperor until you finally get elected. But doing it the conquest way seems possible for Pagans, but possibly a giant pain. Maybe you go for Hispania, hoping that a prepared invasion of the Muslims works? Or maybe a Norse start a bit before 1066, when you can do a prepared invasion of England, and snap up most of Ireland as individual counties.
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby yurell » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:14 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:I do wonder the easiest way to go from count to emperor in one life (my guy lived to ~80, so I think if I had planned better I could have done it on him. Sigh.). It probably involves some high-intrigue character who's a count who's in line for a duchy in the HRE, since I've found being a high-intrigue duke is a recipe for getting appointed the spymaster of the HRE, which then allows you to kill the emperor until you finally get elected. But doing it the conquest way seems possible for Pagans, but possibly a giant pain. Maybe you go for Hispania, hoping that a prepared invasion of the Muslims works? Or maybe a Norse start a bit before 1066, when you can do a prepared invasion of England, and snap up most of Ireland as individual counties.


That's the one I'm stuck on, and inheriting from the HRE or ERE seems the most reasonable way to me, too — apparently it's possible to make Britannia from Ireland, or Mali from a Norse character, but I am in no way that good.
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby setzer777 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:46 am UTC

Vaniver wrote: It probably involves some high-intrigue character who's a count who's in line for a duchy in the HRE, since I've found being a high-intrigue duke is a recipe for getting appointed the spymaster of the HRE, which then allows you to kill the emperor until you finally get elected.


You'd think the successive assassinations would, if not draw suspicion, at least make people question your qualifications as spymaster. But I suppose that number next to your portrait is all they look at (in terms of judging qualifications).
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby bigglesworth » Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:16 pm UTC

I just went to war with the Duke of Ulster to put my learning-disabled granddaughter on the throne there. I'm such a terrible person.
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby setzer777 » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:14 am UTC

If I answer a call to arms regarding a title dispute while I have a claim to an unrelated title held by the same enemy, is there any way for me to press that claim before the war is over? Or do I have to wait for that war to finish before starting a new one to take what I want?
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby yurell » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:26 am UTC

You can't declare war on someone if you're already at war with them, so I don't think you'll be able to press your claim if you accept the call-to-arms. That said, if you declare war before accepting the call, you shouldn't lose any prestige or alliances as the call is automatically cancelled (I don't think it will still be available after you declare war independently).
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby setzer777 » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:32 am UTC

I figured - so as soon as the call reaches me I can only take advantage of the free ally if refuse the call (and take the prestige/opinion hit) and then independently declare war.

It's a shame I can't be like: "Sure, I'll help you out, and hey, I'll go ahead and claim this title while we're at it."
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby Vaniver » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:00 am UTC

yurell wrote:That's the one I'm stuck on, and inheriting from the HRE or ERE seems the most reasonable way to me, too — apparently it's possible to make Britannia from Ireland, or Mali from a Norse character, but I am in no way that good.
Turns out "one character" doesn't actually mean one character- it means one game, without switching characters (which Ironman prevents you from doing anyway). So when I finally put Scandinavia together, I got it.

I'm at about 1100 now, have the Empire of Scandinavia, and... something like twelve kingdoms? Maybe more. France, Germany, and Italy were taken over by Shia empire of Hispania, and they've been about half-converted to Islam. The Muslims have been falling apart for a while, though, and now that the crusades are benefiting me I'm joining and winning them (well, I've also got a much more impressive army now than I did a century ago).

I've also discovered that the "Request Money" diplomatic action you can take on the Pope always costs 100 piety, but the amount of money you get scales with your income, and it's something ridiculous like 2-3 years of income. Combine this with donating to Holy Orders, which is always a flat 300 ducats for 300 piety, and you can appropriate the massive pile of cash that the Pope accumulates. (The Pope gets -50 relations with you every time he gives you money, but that's what your chancellor and court chaplain are for. And then your court chaplain gets a bonus on being made a cardinal!)

setzer777 wrote:You'd think the successive assassinations would, if not draw suspicion, at least make people question your qualifications as spymaster. But I suppose that number next to your portrait is all they look at (in terms of judging qualifications).

It's like the game where my king married, impregnated, then murdered every landed female character he could find (and their child, too) to take advantage of how the plot/inheritance system worked in that update. You'd think they would say "you know, mishaps seem to happen to your wives with disturbingly high frequency. How about no?"

setzer777 wrote:If I answer a call to arms regarding a title dispute while I have a claim to an unrelated title held by the same enemy, is there any way for me to press that claim before the war is over? Or do I have to wait for that war to finish before starting a new one to take what I want?
Not in CK2. In Victoria II (and I think maybe a few of the others) you have the ability to add wargoals to a war, but not here.
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby bigglesworth » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:12 am UTC

Adding war goals would be fun for defenders. You have a de jure claim on one of my counties in your Emirate? I have a holy claim on all lands of Moors!

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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby yurell » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:53 am UTC

Vaniver wrote:Turns out "one character" doesn't actually mean one character- it means one game, without switching characters (which Ironman prevents you from doing anyway). So when I finally put Scandinavia together, I got it.


I've created several empires in multiple games and not gotten the achievement. Hmmm, when you made the empire, did that character start as a count? Could it be that you just need to do it with one character, and it doesn't matter which character it is?
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby setzer777 » Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:31 pm UTC

Btw, stumbled upon this critique of CK2 combat (though I think it was before retinue nerf): http://t-a-w.blogspot.com/2013/07/how-not-to-design-game-mechanics.html.

My experience of the game is still quite limited (I think I've played about 35 hours or so of vanilla CK2), but it does seem like the complexity of the combat loses some meaning given the comparative inability to meaningfully take advantage of many of the systems.
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby bigglesworth » Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:45 pm UTC

Yeah, the complexity in combat is really pointless given that you can't influence it and it doesn't usually affect the outcome of the battle. Especially since it's most common for one army to be large and the other small, unless the big countries are fighting each other.

If I was changing it, I'd take out the flanking system in all but as a way of including three commanders in an army.
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby Vaniver » Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:42 pm UTC

yurell wrote:I've created several empires in multiple games and not gotten the achievement. Hmmm, when you made the empire, did that character start as a count? Could it be that you just need to do it with one character, and it doesn't matter which character it is?
Well, all later characters start off with no titles (when born). I'm pretty sure I made the empire on a female char (who wouldn't have had any titles before she inherited the kingdoms).

So, I like not having all that much control over combat, because I'm the sort of guy who would play Total War and autocalc battles as soon as I could reliably win that way to get back to the strategic map. I agree that the current opaque system is probably worse than something clearer (for example, I only bothered to learn the system when I noticed that my huge housecarl stacks would lose a bunch of people and morale while doing almost no damage, then turn around and utterly demolish the opposition- which turned out to be because of the difference in combat phase strength), but it's not something I care that much about.
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby bigglesworth » Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:34 am UTC

The only annoying thing is having mixed units not be a good thing, and then not having a way of organising your troops.
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby Coin » Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:41 am UTC

Wow, that article about the combat mechanics was something of an eye opener for me, especially after reading the paper it linked to detailing how to get the most out of your armies.
That said, I think that the system is far too convoluted and cumbersome. It would take substantial effort to build your castles right and then organise your armies correctly.
I think I'll continue with my "more is more" approach and take the hit in effectiveness. :(
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby bigglesworth » Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:53 am UTC

I must say, I was really surprised when I started turning English, despite having been Anglo-Saxon and never invaded by Normans. I guess it's something that happens a few hundred years after you form England?
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby Vaniver » Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:15 pm UTC

bigglesworth wrote:I must say, I was really surprised when I started turning English, despite having been Anglo-Saxon and never invaded by Normans. I guess it's something that happens a few hundred years after you form England?
I know that the Norse culture starts breaking up in to Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, and Norman, which is a giant pain, especially if you haven't unified Scandinavia in time. It wouldn't surprise me if there are also changes that happen to other cultures.

Speaking of which, it looks like Italian is simply Best Culture for Catholics, because it makes your priests more likely to be Cardinals and Pope. I think there are also some culture-change mechanics associated with holy orders and religion- I think people automatically become Italian upon becoming the Pope, German upon becoming the head of the Teutonic Order, and so on. I find that a little bothersome- when the Muslims had taken over central Europe and Italy, and the primary refuge of Catholicism was Scandinavia, and about half of the College of Cardinals was Swedish even after the malus, and a Swede got elected Pope- you'd think the Papacy might switch to Swedish!

(Also, I haven't toyed around with Antipopes much since you could request money from the Pope, but I wonder if a good setup is having your chancellor as an antipope, and then funding lots of wicked priests to be cardinals, so that hopefully all the other Catholics hate the actual pope and prefer your antipope. It seems like you'd have to put enough into election funds for that to be a bad idea, though.)
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby setzer777 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:19 am UTC

Is any of the DLC worth it for across-the-board additions? Seems like almost all of it is culture-specific stuff.

Retinues look like a big chance, but they also seem overpowered, and I don't really want to turn the game into a cakewalk. The logic behind them also bugs me - how can you have your own personal army that you never have to pay except to replenish? Who is supposed to be paying for their food/lodging/equipment/wage?
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby bigglesworth » Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:40 am UTC

They're not overpowered because using them reduces your personal levies. Or something - they're not a total cakewalk in any case.

And I don't really get the justification either.

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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby Coin » Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:07 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:The logic behind them also bugs me - how can you have your own personal army that you never have to pay except to replenish? Who is supposed to be paying for their food/lodging/equipment/wage?

Confider this: The cost of a retinue is 100 gold or so. This is roughly half the cost of building a keep, a very costly item in the medieval world. Maybe the money paid for the retinues goes not only to equipment but also to providing each soldier with a plot of land, and maybe a little house, on which to subsist.
Founding a new city, setting up a monastery or building an entire castle can be done for as little as 700 gold for added scale.
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby bigglesworth » Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:43 pm UTC

Mmm, plus hiring 1500 mercenaries costs 75 gold and you have to support them. If they were retinues then that would be 300 gold but you wouldn't have to support them. So mercenaries are cheaper until you've used them for... two years or so?
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby setzer777 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:50 pm UTC

That's true, and I suppose some amount of loss is inevitable, so you're going to have to pay replenishment unless there's extended peace. I suppose having a standing army that you don't have to really pay for during peacetime (outside initial investment) isn't *too* implausible. Though it does raise the question of why you have to pay levies (comparatively) so much per month - aren't they mostly conscripts who don't even have a choice to say no?
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby bigglesworth » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:05 pm UTC

Well, you have to support them because they've been taken away from their homes and families to fight. They need to be fed and provided with arrows and horseshoes and such.

Though that doesn't explain why you can march your retinue from France to Constantinople for free. That part is not explained at all.
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby Vaniver » Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:30 pm UTC

So, I think all of Christendom is my vassal now, except for Venice. Not sure if it's possible to vassalize them without destroying their trade posts and houses- but it would be nice to. Will see if they still have the "but I'm a King!" once I'm emperor of Byzantium too, but I think they will.

The Pope is my vassal, and I'm not entirely sure how it happened. I think if you have a vassal cardinal of your dynasty elected pope, they stay your vassal. But there was an independence war at the time- what might have happened is that vassal cardinal was rebelling, inherited the Papacy but stayed in the independence war, and then I won the war, and he became my vassal again. Anyway, vassal popes will do whatever you tell them to, which is awesome. ("Why yes, I would like all of your money.") They still hate you though, which is bothersome.

But this also means you can get individual title-holders to rebel. This works better on minors who don't have a dynasty, but get the pope to excommunicate them, and then you can imprison them, and no one cares because they're excommunicated. Ransom them if they have the money, release them if they don't, and repeat until your imprisonment fails and they rebel. Then, crush them, revoke their title, and you're done.
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:26 pm UTC

Anyone else play the Game of Thrones mod for CK2? If you have but not since December, you may want to check out the newer version, as it now has the entire continent of Essos along with the ability to play as Dani or a Dothraki or any number of other factions.

Here's a summary of the story I played yesterday, as Tywin Lannister (spoilers from the first book/season, but nothing from later on)
Spoiler:
In somewhat of a mirror image of trying to stay alive as Ned Stark, I decided this Tywin would diverge quite a bit from GRRM's version, in that he would work for the realm instead of just for Lannisters (while Rich McCormick's Ned Stark would work for himself rather than honor and all the other ideals that got him killed in the book).

So, the first thing I did was have Joffrey assassinated. The lousy incest-born bastard had started a massive civil war and gotten my own son kidnapped because he couldn't keep it (Ser Ilyn Payne's axe) in his (Ser Ilyn's) pants. But after he was dead, Tommem took the Iron Throne and the war with the North continued, so I had him assassinated as well, followed by Myrcella. At that point Stannis took the throne and the fighting stopped. The kingdoms were peacefully reunited under the Iron Throne and it only took three deaths instead of thousands.

Well, four, as it turned out. Jaime had managed to die at some point, though I think it was in fighting rather than being executed because I'm pretty sure a popup would have notified me if my heir had been executed. Also, Cersei was imprisoned by Stannis for a wee bit, but I managed to get her out and back to Casterly Rock before too long. She was none too pleased with me, though. And not, as you might think, because I'd killed all three of her kids (my own intrigue was high enough that no one ever found out about any of those). No, she was mad because after Jaime's death I re-inherited Tyrion instead of instituting absolute cognatic succession and letting her be my heir.

Another upshot of bringing the Clash of Kings to an end so quickly was that I, along with the Iron Throne and the North, was then able to send some men up to the Wall to successfully fight off Wildlings (I don't know that there are White Walkers or risen dead in the game, but I didn't hear anything about that as Tywin).

Unfortunately, all was not well for very long, since pretty soon Stannis wanted Castamere from me, even though it was only one of two counties in my own demesne. So I told him no and we went to war over it. By this time Tywin had lost the "Widowed" trait and was ready to remarry, so he'd married Margaery Tyrell and made an alliance with the Reach, who joined me in the fight against Stannis's tyranny. The war wasn't going great, as the rest of the Iron Throne's lands were still under Stannis's rule and able to field a lot more troops than just myself and the Tyrells. But fortunately that problem was solved when Stannis was killed in single combat. By Ser Gregor "The Mountain that Rides" Clegane himself. I'd been reluctant to keep him on as my master-at-arms, given how horrible he is in the books, but since raping and burning villages aren't part of the CK2 mechanic I decided he wasn't all that bad and in retrospect am glad of that decision.

That war was just with Stannis himself, so it ended when his daughter Shireen took the throne. That would have been the end of it, with another war ended and Westeros back under one throne, except who should I see listed as Shireen's heir but Daenerys Targaryen herself. I figured, she's gonna become a problem here if she ever gets her shit together over in Essos, so why not avert yet another war with yet another assassination? Unfortunately, I ended up going to war with Shireen over something or other (ultimately the independence of the Westerlands themselves, probably because she wanted something from me like her ungrateful dad did). By that time I'd married Cersei off to the second-in-line to the throne of the Vale, and successfully assassinated Robert Arryn to make him the Lord Paramount, gaining their alliance as well. So together with the Vale and the Reach I went to war once again with the Iron Throne, and during that war Tywin died of old age and Shireen died of assassination. Her death ended my war and put Dany Targaryen on the Iron Throne, at which point I promptly gave up the independence I'd just fought a war over and swore fealty to her.

Bam! Book conflicts over! Sure, it took a few wars of its own, but most of the main players outside House Baratheon (keeping in mind that Tywin's grandkids were technically of that house themselves) were still alive. Sure, a fair number of peasants and lowly soldiers lost their lives, but when you play the game of thrones, you break some eggs or you die.
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby Vaniver » Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:59 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Anyone else play the Game of Thrones mod for CK2?
I have but am not a fan relative to the base game, because GoT is not set up to make for an interesting CKII game. Basically everyone is already in a huge kingdom or empire, so you don't have the options that you have, say, in Ireland in the base game.

But when I do play it, I do it as Rhaegar, because Rhaegar.
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby setzer777 » Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:58 pm UTC

So, I bought my wife a beautiful horse, which made her fall in love with me. Unfortunately, having my wife become my "lover" became a catch-22. I was stressed out by trying to carry out my affair with my wife behind my wife's back. Now wife despises me because I refused to cut things off with my wife.

So...multiple personalities?
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby bigglesworth » Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:00 pm UTC

Or: You were stressed out by the fact that she wants it hot and steamy in secret places in your castle, while wanting to seem a prim and proper Christian in court.
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby gmalivuk » Sat May 30, 2015 5:45 pm UTC

I recently got back into this with the addition of game file edits and console tweaks to make things more interesting (or, honestly, to just make things more survivable when someone decides to invade me after I've spent all my gold on holding upgrades and I'd really rather not lose twenty dollars and my self respect just yet).

My Ethiopian Jewish matriarchy is currently poised to finish taking over the Horn of Africa, and from there I'll spread north and try to start retaking Jewish holy sites from the Muslim and Pagan forces holding them.

Has anyone downloaded the Way of Life DLC yet? It looks like a pretty cool addition for players who enjoy the interpersonal aspect of running a kingdom. (I'll probably buy it soon, because above paragraph aside I tend to lose interest in the world-conquest route pretty quickly.)
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby bigglesworth » Sat May 30, 2015 7:07 pm UTC

Way of life is excellent. I don't know how much of the convenience of the UI changes are in the patch as opposed to the DLC, but I enjoyed CKII a lot more after the DLC came out and I bought it. Taking personal focuses are very useful for small nations, since they much increase the chances of what you really need to happen.

There is another new DLC coming up, which will introduce things like Regions and Forts.
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby bigglesworth » Sat May 30, 2015 7:24 pm UTC

Some changelogs:

- AI: Toned down seduction by characters with many children
- AI: Toned down impregnation chances for seduction affairs with characters with many children
- Handsome and lustful men now also populate the cabins in the wild for the pleasures of people who find them attractive
- Fixed a problem with allies of vassals staying in the war when the vassals's liege joins the other side
- AI will not join wars against spouse
- Several Lovers events now checks that ruler/spouse/lover isn't incapable/imprisoned
- You'll no longer try to talk to your dead children when you have the family focus.
- Fixed get married ambition for homosexuals.
- Paranoid parents should no longer worry about potential plots against dead children.
- Lovers in prison can no longer get impregnated normally
- Anglo-Saxons are now also allowed to create the Kingdom of Saxony
- Monks and other people living in celibacy will no longer try to arrange stealth marriages if ruled by a patrician.
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby setzer777 » Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:47 am UTC

Questions about religion:

1. Is the religion of a province just a single value, or is there a hidden count of what percentage of the population is each religion? It seems kinda weird for provinces to just instantly swap from one religion to another.

2. Do temples help convert provinces, aside from the tiny bonus they give to the religion's moral authority?

3. Do religions spread apart from court chaplains? Do borders matter?

4. Finally, is there any benefit (aside from a buffer) of additional moral authority once your religion has enough for great holy wars?
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby bigglesworth » Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:07 am UTC

1. A county has two: its direct ruler and its population. Each of these is a single value. So you can be a Catholic ruler with an Orthodox count with a Tengri population.

2. I do not believe so, and I've never seen it mentioned.

3. Religions only spread because of court chaplains (in terms of population, not rulers, though they can convert people too).

4. I think there's some sort of percentage based bonus to you but I'm not sure.
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby setzer777 » Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:11 pm UTC

Thanks! So every time I get a message about a province converting, that means someone had their court chaplain there. Heresy spreads on its own though, right?
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:33 pm UTC

Yeah, provinces convert with chaplains (or certain random events, I think). This is a good reason to put zealous vassals in charge of different-religion counties, so their own chaplains can do the work.

It's also my understanding that conversion is a fixed probability every unit time, and that it's memoryless, like rolling a die each month, so if you r chaplain dies or something you haven't lost any sunk effort if he was previously trying to convert somewhere.
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby setzer777 » Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:51 pm UTC

That does seem kinda silly though, that places can't be a mix of religions. That for all gameplay purposes the entire population just flips.
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby Xanthir » Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:23 pm UTC

Yeah, I rather like Civ 5's religion system, where nearby cities (and far-off trade routes) exert some influence for their majority religion on your city. Your city's population (slowly) converges on the same belief ratios as the influence, so if you've got +20 Islamic influence and +12 Christian, you'll (eventually) end up with 5/8th of the city Muslim and 3/8th Christian. (Giving it a majority belief of Islam, making it an "Islamic city" for the game's purposes, which spreads the influence of Islam.)
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby setzer777 » Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:26 pm UTC

Gah! Went to all that trouble reforming the Germanic faith and building up the kingdom of Aquitaine, only to have the damn pope declare a crusade. My decades of work crushed in less than a year by massive stacks of Christian soldiers.
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby setzer777 » Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:03 pm UTC

Sorry to double post, but I can't believe that after 100+ hours I just learned that you can reorganize your armies to put different troops on different flanks.
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Re: Crusader Kings 2

Postby bigglesworth » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:39 pm UTC

It's useful mostly for when using Retinues, when you might put all your heavy cavalry on a flank with a Cavalry commander.
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