Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

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Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:21 pm UTC

Game here in case you don't know what I'm talking about
I'm playing the beta of this right now and have mixed feelings about it. It's most obviously a Diablo clone, but it does a number of things decidedly 'right'. For one, all loot can be converted into various items which are used as currency for potentially acquiring other loot, or themselves be used to produce better items.

Secondly, the skill system is based around an FF7 materia like system, with gems being slotted into gear and leveling up as you use them. This is neat as there are, as expected, modifier gems, and gems can be bought and sold.

Thirdly, the passive skill system is based around a complex and class overlapping grid, similar to the sphere grid in FFx. I haven't examined this in depth, but find it pretty involved and neat, and it appears to allow a fair amount of customization of your character.

Additionally, the general ambiance of the game is 'dark and gritty', which I imagine will appeal to a lot of gamers who were miffed by D3's color palette.

Anyone else playing?
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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby mosc » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:39 pm UTC

I tried so many Diablo clones since D2 came out. They all had some interesting elements but the depth and polish just wasn't there. D3 has an incredibly deep economy which is just an irreplaceable element in a loot grind game. I do have a wishlist for D3 but overall it plays fine.
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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Gelsamel » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:53 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Game here in case you don't know what I'm talking about
I'm playing the beta of this right now and have mixed feelings about it. It's most obviously a Diablo clone, but it does a number of things decidedly 'right'. For one, all loot can be converted into various items which are used as currency for potentially acquiring other loot, or themselves be used to produce better items.

Secondly, the skill system is based around an FF7 materia like system, with gems being slotted into gear and leveling up as you use them. This is neat as there are, as expected, modifier gems, and gems can be bought and sold.

Thirdly, the passive skill system is based around a complex and class overlapping grid, similar to the sphere grid in FFx. I haven't examined this in depth, but find it pretty involved and neat, and it appears to allow a fair amount of customization of your character.

Additionally, the general ambiance of the game is 'dark and gritty', which I imagine will appeal to a lot of gamers who were miffed by D3's color palette.

Anyone else playing?


Yes, I've been playing.
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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:11 am UTC

Riveting contribution Gel.

@Mosc: I don't think PoE is going to compete with D3, but it's fun to diversify and try new stuff. I'm less interested in which game is 'better', and more interested in just seeing how different games do different things well. If PoE has a demo or something on release, I suggest checking it out, as it's cool.

I haven't even picked up aura's yet.
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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Gelsamel » Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:27 am UTC

They have a lot of game mechanics that just make so much sense if you're trying to emulate what made D2 so awesome.

  • Trade based economy, they just got rid of gold because, screw it, lets just make tradeable and always-useful items the currency. Gold is difficult to balance, and boring.
  • Large tree based customisation to give your characters a sense of permenance and character identity but also to enable a ridiculous amount of builds.
  • Unrestricted access to skills and passives, so you can mix and match (and modify) with little respect to what 'class' you are.
  • Edit: Socketed gems can be moved and removed without any penalties, so experiment to your heart's content.
  • Item design that fills all gaming niches, ex. min/maxing items (generic +stats/dps/hp), thematic items (+level to specific themes of skills ex. fire, summoning, cold, melee or items that grant keystone passives), build-centered (items that you could create an entire character around, like facebreaker).
  • Non-Instanced loot, but with a short timer so that ranged characters have a fair chance of picking up items, meaning the frantic fast paced action of picking up items and moving on to kill more stuff isn't ruined by one person getting all the items, or people taking their time to look through items.
  • Respeccing takes effort, but isn't unreasonable which helps with character ID and permenance. Due to the design of the passive tree a lot of the points you -would- want to respec are easy to respec, and there is a respec point currency item which isn't too difficult to get, so thereotically anything is respecable.
  • Edit: Also, all currency items drop at all levels of play meaning you're still getting a decent amount of income by playing new characters. So experiment as much as you want!



Edit:

Btw this is my main character's build. I submitted it to Build of the Week, I hope it gets featured but if it does it will probably be nerfed to all hell.




Edit:

Tips for Beginners:
  • Don't spend your crafting currency orbs until end game.
  • Keep an eye out for items with a red, blue and green socket, all of which (or more) are linked. They will sell to NPCs for a chromatic orb.
  • Keep an eye out for items with 6 sockets in them (non-linked), they will sell to NPCs for 7 Jeweler's Orbs.
  • Never sell a 6 linked ANYTHING to an NPC. Sell them to players. Don't sell 5 links to NPCs either if they're high level items.
  • Socketed Gems in Linked Sockets affect every socket in the chain, not just the adjacent sockets.
  • Generally you should identify everything before selling it to an NPC. Unless you want to sell a whole rare item set (ie one item for each equipment slot, 2handers count for both weapon slots, quivers don't count) in which case you should leave it unidentified because then it is worth more.
  • Pay attention and always pick up loot assigned to you the instant it drops. It is fun and pragmatic.
  • Edit: Do NOT be afraid to ask for help in general chat. The community in PoE is unbelievably nice and helpful.
Last edited by Gelsamel on Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:24 am UTC, edited 4 times in total.
"Give up here?"
- > No
"Do you accept defeat?"
- > No
"Do you think games are silly little things?"
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"Do you admit there is no meaning to this world?"
- > No

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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:44 am UTC

The Pain Attunement and Chaos Innoculation (I may have switched those) seem like a really good combination, but I'm curious how you can have blood magic linked. If you have 1 life, how do you pay for spells with life instead of mana?
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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Gelsamel » Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:54 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:The Pain Attunement and Chaos Innoculation (I may have switched those) seem like a really good combination, but I'm curious how you can have blood magic linked. If you have 1 life, how do you pay for spells with life instead of mana?


I don't use CI.

Pain Attunement doesn't work with Chaos Innoculation because CI sets your maximum HP to 1. Which means you're always at 100% HP (not 34%) and you can't use blood magic, as you rightly pointed out.

Also updated my first post with some tips.


Edit: Also. if it wasn't clear from my link, main character's name is Grainne, feel free to add me.
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- > No
"Do you accept defeat?"
- > No
"Do you think games are silly little things?"
- > No
"Is it all pointless?"
- > No
"Do you admit there is no meaning to this world?"
- > No

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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Zcorp » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:12 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Anyone else playing?

Curious to check it out, seems I have to wait for a beta key though?
Anyone have one?

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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Gelsamel » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:20 am UTC

Zcorp wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:Anyone else playing?

Curious to check it out, seems I have to wait for a beta key though?
Anyone have one?


You can wait till you get granted one or buy a supporter pack for 10 USD and get a beta key + 10 USD worth of PoE store money.

PoE is completely NOT pay to win, at the moment you can only buy storage space and character slots. In the future they'll only be adding aesthetic things.
"Give up here?"
- > No
"Do you accept defeat?"
- > No
"Do you think games are silly little things?"
- > No
"Is it all pointless?"
- > No
"Do you admit there is no meaning to this world?"
- > No

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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Zcorp » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:22 am UTC

Gelsamel wrote:
Zcorp wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:Anyone else playing?

Curious to check it out, seems I have to wait for a beta key though?
Anyone have one?


You can wait till you get granted one or buy a supporter pack for 10 USD and get a beta key + 10 USD worth of PoE store money.

PoE is completely NOT pay to win, at the moment you can only buy storage space and character slots. In the future they'll only be adding aesthetic things.

The 10 USD doesn't get me a game though right? Just an account, once it is actually released I have to purchase the game? Or is it F2P on release?

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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Gelsamel » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:24 am UTC

Zcorp wrote:
Gelsamel wrote:
Zcorp wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:Anyone else playing?

Curious to check it out, seems I have to wait for a beta key though?
Anyone have one?


You can wait till you get granted one or buy a supporter pack for 10 USD and get a beta key + 10 USD worth of PoE store money.

PoE is completely NOT pay to win, at the moment you can only buy storage space and character slots. In the future they'll only be adding aesthetic things.

The 10 USD doesn't get me a game though right? Just an account, once it is actually released I have to purchase the game? Or is it F2P on release?


The 10 USD gets you a beta access key straight away, if you don't want to pay you can wait to eventually be granted a key. Accounts are free, even after release, the game is completely free to play.
"Give up here?"
- > No
"Do you accept defeat?"
- > No
"Do you think games are silly little things?"
- > No
"Is it all pointless?"
- > No
"Do you admit there is no meaning to this world?"
- > No

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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Spambot5546 » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:10 pm UTC

Open beta starts tomorrow. If you weren't playing before, now's the time to start.
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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:36 pm UTC

But they're wiping all characters! Man, that blows.
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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby DaBigCheez » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:33 pm UTC

Impressions after playing it up to level 12ish:

Seems decent, but still needs some work, which is an alright place to be in during beta. Specifically, I like a lot of the underlying mechanics - the skilltree (or skillforest) seems well-thought-out, the currency system is intriguing, and I've always been fond of the materia system, though there's some slight irritation with making sure you still have the right slot colors to fit all your gems while in the "replacing a piece of gear every two minutes" phase. I particularly like the potion/flask system - I have a real problem with hoarding consumables, so having the healing/mana/speed potions refill as you bring down enemies helps me get over that. I'd be wasting charges to *not* use them!

That said, probably my biggest complaint so far is the sound design, with some aspects of the UI close behind. The sound just feels...weak. Weapon attacks (non-crit ones, at least) don't feel like powerful impacts, they barely feel like taps. Combined with the lack of more dramatic combat-ish music, in the starter areas I don't feel like a powerful warrior, I feel like some idiot flailing around with noodly arms, or playing whack-a-mole with one of those padded hammers. It just doesn't feel satisfying - Diablo III went for a more over-the-top heroic/impactful style with the sound design, where every ability feels like you're bringing down the wrath of your deity of choice, and I think I like that general feel more. That said, it seems entirely possible that some of the sound effects are placeholders and will be changed approaching release. (Firestorm's another example, from what I've used so far - it doesn't sound like calling down a rain of meteors to lay waste to your foes, it's more like dropping a bowl of slightly-hot peas.)

As far as the UI, my main irritation lies with misses. Especially when I'm using shift+clicks to stay in place as I swing, there doesn't seem to be any good way to tell if I'm not hitting them because I'm getting poor accuracy rolls or because they're 2 pixels out of range, especially since the basic-attack swing range seems shorter than the animation would indicate. It would be nice to have an option for floating combat text, to show whether I was "missing" an enemy/being evaded or just swinging wide. I also saw some requests in chat for floating health bars, which I wouldn't mind but am not really aggressively clamoring for.

That said, liking the underlying mechanics and disagreeing with some aspects of the presentation is a promising place for a game to be going into beta!
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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Metaphysician » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:08 am UTC

I've only played this game a very tiny bit but I have much hope for it. I blazed through Diablo III without any challenges up until act II Inferno. Then I farmed a little bit, beat the game, and then... farmed a bunch but then stopped playing when I realized there wasn't a whole lot of point to farming. Even with the MP system, once your character reaches a certain point, it becomes pointless drudgery because the bossfights stop being engaging and are just "I can't die, so how long will it take me to kill this?"

Path of Exile on the other hand has a character progression system that is so open, the replay value is extremely high because even if you only ever play one class there are so many ways to play that class. The game is also challenging from the very beginning. I didn't even come close to dying in Diablo III until Hell. whereas I have died quite a few times in this game just due to an elite having powerful affixes that somewhat counter what my character is capable of in the moment. I like the gear/barter system and I feel like this game is much closer in look and feel to Diablo II which I love.
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Path of Exile

Postby The Scyphozoa » Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:22 am UTC

http://pathofexile.com
I haven't actually played this yet, it's downloading now, but after watching a few videos of it today I'm fucking sold.

-Action RPG similar to Diablo 2. Free to Play with a promise of absolutely no advantages given by spending money - only cosmetics and conveniences.
-Abilities come in the form of gems that you socket in your items, and level up as you use them. Items should be judged on how many gems they can socket as well as their stats.
-Ungodly enormous passive skill tree, no really it's fucking huge. Each of the 6 classes starts on a different point on the tree, and anyone can reach any part of it then enough time. But oh my lord is it big.
-No straight currency - the currency-like items are things like scrolls to identify items' stats and orbs to upgrade or reroll them. Reminds me of TF2, where the main currencies are metal (used to craft things) and keys (used to open crates to gamble for a random item).
-Some kind of "league" system in which characters exist in different segments of the community and compete within them. The hardcore league, instead of deleting the character upon death, merely drops them down into the default league. There are also PvP-everywhere leagues, to encourage people to steal each other's stuff, and limited-resources leagues, to encourage player cooperation.
-Randomly-generated areas for a touch of replayability. Endgame dungeons are accessed by finding a map item, and some maps have stats that change the conditions of the dungeon they lead to, like increased loot or increased mob numbers. Also reminds me of TF2's Mann Up tickets.
-The classes, as far as I can tell, are the standard Warrior/Ranger/Caster types (Marauder/Ranger/Witch), with three "hybrids" of those three archetypes (Templar is strength + intelligence, Duelist is str + dexterity, Shadow is dex + int).

The game entered open beta two days ago, you need only create an account on the website linked above and download it and you're good to go. The launcher says it's a 5 GB download, but I think that's after decompression, so it's more like 3-4 GB. There will NOT be a character wipe after the beta, you get to keep everything.
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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Mishrak » Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:34 pm UTC

This is a really fun game. I see they underestimated how many people they'd get playing the open beta, as their servers are actually full. 15,651 people ahead of me. Yay?

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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Meem1029 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:37 am UTC

I've played a few hours on this so far since it's come to open beta and I'm loving it. I never played any of the Diablos or really anything similar besides a bit of torchlight. Honestly for me this game beats torchlight out, just because the atmosphere seems to fit so much better. It is definitely one of the more polished games I've played (at least up to level 11 or so, may change as I get to end game).
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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Metaphysician » Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:26 am UTC

Wow, this game is definitely more challenging than any ARPG I've played in a while. I've been owned by Hailrake like three times. I looked around, the community is a little on the elitist side, not very forthcoming. People keep saying he's optional but he's the only quest I have right now so I don't know what that means, unless the story is so loose I could just forge ahead to a new town or whatever. I'm playing a Templar, do I need to just roam and gain some levels before messing with him? It seems like that's probably the way since if he freezes me, he kills me before I unfreeze.

Game is no joke. I like it though. I especially like the skill forest, it reminds me of FFX, and the gear system reminds me of the Materia system in FFIV, mixing those things with with an ARPG that feels more like Diablo II than Diablo III did means this game is pretty much an ideal.

Does anybody know if a waypoint system exists or do you just have to run from zone to zone every time you log in? My only issue so far is that I never seem to have enough time to get anything done when I sit down to play.
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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Gelsamel » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:38 am UTC

Did a sapphire ring work?
"Give up here?"
- > No
"Do you accept defeat?"
- > No
"Do you think games are silly little things?"
- > No
"Is it all pointless?"
- > No
"Do you admit there is no meaning to this world?"
- > No

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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby EmptySet » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:02 am UTC

Metaphysician wrote:Does anybody know if a waypoint system exists or do you just have to run from zone to zone every time you log in? My only issue so far is that I never seem to have enough time to get anything done when I sit down to play.


There is a waypoint system much like in Diablo II, though not every area has a waypoint.

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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Metaphysician » Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:42 am UTC

I just ended up employing a strategy of using terrain to kite Hailrake until he seemed to be out of icy death and then killed him. Imagine that, an ARPG that actually makes you think about how to fight things... will wonders never cease?
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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Spambot5546 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:07 pm UTC

Hailrake is indeed optional, although I understand and share your refusal to skip him. He's also regarded as one of the game's harder fights, thanks to his ability to completely freeze you for a good 5-10 seconds. I've had many hardcore character whose adventures ended very quickly thanks to that jerk.

If you do want to skip him, just keep walking along the beach past the tidal island. You'll come to an entrance to the mud flats.

There's also a partying system (the notice board in town) that you can use to request help.
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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Metaphysician » Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:13 am UTC

This is the first time in a while I've actually played an ARPG where I feel like I achieved something in the early levels. Killing Hailrake was definitely hard, but eventually I figured it out. It's a long time since a game actually made me think like that. I used be comfortable with that, but modern games tend to be so easy, they rarely require any thought at all. It feels good to be playing a game where I really don't know what to expect. I'm looking forward to exploring everything they have in store.
What should young people do with their lives today? Many things, obviously. But the most daring thing is to create stable communities in which the terrible disease of loneliness can be cured.
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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Meem1029 » Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:13 am UTC

Indeed. Sometimes I find it frustrating when I die 5 times in a dungeon, but eventually I always get it and not just because of sheer luck. It very much reminds me of the advice someone game me in another game I played a while back that every death was your fault. Figure out why you caused yourself to die and don't do it again. Much easier said than done of course...
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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Metaphysician » Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:15 am UTC

Meem1029 wrote:Indeed. Sometimes I find it frustrating when I die 5 times in a dungeon, but eventually I always get it and not just because of sheer luck. It very much reminds me of the advice someone game me in another game I played a while back that every death was your fault. Figure out why you caused yourself to die and don't do it again. Much easier said than done of course...


Yeah and these days the people that give advice like that get branded "elitists" and half the people accuse them of lying about how they handled the same situation. There are so many "nerf Hailrake" threads on the PoE forums and the people mostly respond "I died to Hailrake five times until I started paying attention and then killed him this way... he doesn't need to be nerfed" and people call them liars and elitists, it's just so funny to me. They aren't even elitists, they just want the game to remain challenging.
What should young people do with their lives today? Many things, obviously. But the most daring thing is to create stable communities in which the terrible disease of loneliness can be cured.
-Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Chen » Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:51 pm UTC

The problem is the vast majority of people don't necessarily want that level of challenge. Blizzard has continually nerfed WoW and Diablo 3. They're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts or anything. They must be getting better feedback when they nerf things rather than making them hard. I gotta wonder if they're going to stick to their guns for this. Namco-Bandai did with Dark Souls/Demon Souls but those were certainly not as high selling as more accessible games. Not to mention there weren't many other games of that type out whereas there's always a ton of random ARPGs out there. It'll be interesting to see what they do.

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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Spambot5546 » Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:52 pm UTC

I've been using this build and finding it fun and successful. I also play hardcore exclusively.

Last night I TPed into town and after selling realized I had to pee. I didn't want to lose my instance, so I hopped back through my TP, as I had already cleared that room. Came back from the toilet to find my guy's corpse next to a single tiny spider that had wandered into the room. There goes my level 24 guy.
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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Mishrak » Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:51 pm UTC

The nice thing about this crew with Path of Exile, is they're not Blizzard. So they're not bound by the same constraints that a company like that, which has a /massive/ overhead and image to keep up. Plus, it's a free to play game, so there's no subscribers that they're obligated to keep happy. With no huge developer/investor breathing down their neck, and with no paying subscribers to keep happy, they're free to make whatever game they want.

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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Meem1029 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:10 am UTC

Yep. The game that I got that advice on was actually a MUD where you lost all your items and 1/4 level of experience on death and had all your skills reset every ceil(level/10)+1 deaths (although it was a simple skill training mechanism). Also open world pvp everywhere only policed by players. I loved it for the same reason I am loving this game: It's challenging and doesn't care if it punishes you so much that you feel like giving up, because when you push through the reward is so much better.
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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Chen » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:43 pm UTC

Mishrak wrote:The nice thing about this crew with Path of Exile, is they're not Blizzard. So they're not bound by the same constraints that a company like that, which has a /massive/ overhead and image to keep up. Plus, it's a free to play game, so there's no subscribers that they're obligated to keep happy. With no huge developer/investor breathing down their neck, and with no paying subscribers to keep happy, they're free to make whatever game they want.


While true, is foolish to think they don't want more money. I'm sure they have a marketing department and someone keeping track of player comments. I'm not saying they will definitely nerf it or anything, but its rare a game stays extremely hard and keeps up decent sales. Now if keeping it hard incentizes a cash shop type mechanic it might still work, but from what I understand the real money shop in the game is all cosmetic and not actual pay2win power boosts.

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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Mishrak » Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:02 pm UTC

Indeed, you are correct about their microtransaction model. It's cosmetic stuff only, although their $1,000 one lets you design something for the game. Depending on how they're doing things, their overhead might be really low outside of server costs. I mean they got $250,000 in donations during the closed beta. If that's managed properly, you can run on that for a long time. Having said that, I have no idea about how they're operating so that could be peanuts to them. But suffice to say, indeed they want money and profit. That's OK. I think there's an untapped demand for games that are challenging and not uber hand-holding all the time in today's market. They may not sell to 12 year-olds on a console, but to someone who wants a modern Diablo 2-like game, this is perfect and honestly a brilliant merger of features from 3 of the more classic/well made games in the last 15 years.

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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Metaphysician » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:38 am UTC

Mishrak wrote:They may not sell to 12 year-olds on a console, but to someone who wants a modern Diablo 2-like game, this is perfect and honestly a brilliant merger of features from 3 of the more classic/well made games in the last 15 years.


Which is exactly everything I have wanted in a game for years. I mean, this game has so much of what had me going back to Diablo II over and over for the better part of a decade. Honestly the more I play, the more this game just feels like what I was really hoping for in Diablo III, which was a fun game in and of itself, but it didn't even come close to delivering the depth of Diablo II which for me was massively disappointing.
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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Mishrak » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:33 pm UTC

Yeah, the depth of style and the variety and the sheer amount choices from an open beta free to play game dramatically outdoes the linear and relatively tedious game that Blizzard has probably spent millions and millions and millions of dollars to develop and design. You don't even have to mention the years of anticipation. How Blizzard failed to deliver on this, I don't really know. I mean their game isn't bad, but it's not anything like they could have done. Not even close.

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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:38 pm UTC

This was an argument that popped up in the D3 thread; granularity of choice doesn't mean more or deeper choice. I haven't played PoE to the same extent I played D3, but my impression of reading a few builds is that the 'ways to play your character' aren't significantly more varied than in D3.

I really enjoyed this video outlining the differences
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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Metaphysician » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:51 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:This was an argument that popped up in the D3 thread; granularity of choice doesn't mean more or deeper choice. I haven't played PoE to the same extent I played D3, but my impression of reading a few builds is that the 'ways to play your character' aren't significantly more varied than in D3.

I really enjoyed this video outlining the differences


The ways to play your character haven't even all begun to be discovered yet. The passive skill tree allows for an insane amount of combinations. In Diablo III there is generally one or two best builds for a class. I've seen no less than five different (actually different) builds for Templar proposed on forums, all of which looked fun, all of which looked effective. Plus, for a min/maxer, granularity of choice actually does mean more and deeper choice, and no safety net means basically you're stuck with the character you build. This means it's going to take a longer time for the game to get "figured out" and even if there are builds that are technically the "best" build, there will likely be really wonky, fun, viable builds out there too.

The video you posted is actually the video that convinced me that PoE was the game for me and got me to leave DIII. Like I said before, DIII isn't a bad game, but it has been figured out, and they've nerfed it into the ground so it's not challenging, just boring. The way damage works in the game, makes it so that only about .01% of loot drops are even actually worth anything... The combat in DIII is amazing though, and it is a lot of fun, until it's just not any more.
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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby mosc » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:45 pm UTC

It's in beta. This kind of talk is always common. Go read old D3 posts about the game before it was released. The more build options you provide, the more build options will be useless. One of those paths will be substantially better by unintended synergy. The more choices you give, the more likely there is an unforseen consequence to the skills. The answer is NOT more choice. It's active game balance to keep several different avenue's viable. But without much more in depth theory crafting than 99.99% of the player base would care to think about, that is not obvious. Hence a lot of bullshit about how D3 has so few choices and how this new system will be so much more awesome.

MMO's figured this out a long time ago. They give you generally about 3 different trees from which you can get basically everything with only trivial variations giving the illusion of a difference. Even those three are hard enough for them to balance.
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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Metaphysician » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:48 pm UTC

mosc wrote:It's in beta. This kind of talk is always common. Go read old D3 posts about the game before it was released. The more build options you provide, the more build options will be useless. One of those paths will be substantially better by unintended synergy. The more choices you give, the more likely there is an unforseen consequence to the skills. The answer is NOT more choice. It's active game balance to keep several different avenue's viable. But without much more in depth theory crafting than 99.99% of the player base would care to think about, that is not obvious. Hence a lot of bullshit about how D3 has so few choices and how this new system will be so much more awesome.

MMO's figured this out a long time ago. They give you generally about 3 different trees from which you can get basically everything with only trivial variations giving the illusion of a difference. Even those three are hard enough for them to balance.


If you do it right, you end up with several different playstyles per class, that are all almost equally viable to the point where the difference between them is negligible. Diablo II did this. While there were three trees for a class in DII, there were three or four different ways to play each tree, each with their own strengths, each nearly equal in how viable they were depending on how you wanted to play the game.

I don't know enough about Path of Exile to be able to make any general statements about how many viable builds there are per class. But the passive skill tree system allows you to go in numerous different directions, each of those directions opens up certain styles of play, while sacrificing others. I have a feeling that because you are not locked into specific abilities, and because you can go in many different directions on the skill trees, there will be a great host of viable, and effective builds.
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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:10 pm UTC

Metaphysician wrote:Diablo II did this. While there were three trees for a class in DII, there were three or four different ways to play each tree, each with their own strengths, each nearly equal in how viable they were depending on how you wanted to play the game.

I am fairly convinced you have never played D2 if you believe that to be true.

Look, the point of me making my initial comment wasn't to disparage PoE while blowing smoke up D3's ass. Adding granularity doesn't add more depth or breadth; game design does. D3 has strikingly more than 'a couple' of viable builds per class, and I'm sure PoE will too; PoE isn't 'better' than D3 because it lets you distribute 100 pts, or has a nifty skill tree instead of a rune system.

I can levy a lot of criticisms against WoW, but one thing I think it did very very well was make each class, and often within that class, each build, play remarkably different than others. A Shaman does not play like a Warlock does not play like a Warrior. And that's fun. Coming up with 100 different ways to play the same class is fun too, but only if those ways aren't generic repeats of other classes as well. Making a mage that plays like a warrior isn't really 'build diversity' as much as 'build overlap', and claiming there are '100's of different setups' is pretty misleading.
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Re: Path of Exile - Borrow from ALL the games!

Postby Metaphysician » Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:15 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Metaphysician wrote:Diablo II did this. While there were three trees for a class in DII, there were three or four different ways to play each tree, each with their own strengths, each nearly equal in how viable they were depending on how you wanted to play the game.

I am fairly convinced you have never played D2 if you believe that to be true.

Look, the point of me making my initial comment wasn't to disparage PoE while blowing smoke up D3's ass. Adding granularity doesn't add more depth or breadth; game design does. D3 has strikingly more than 'a couple' of viable builds per class, and I'm sure PoE will too; PoE isn't 'better' than D3 because it lets you distribute 100 pts, or has a nifty skill tree instead of a rune system.

I can levy a lot of criticisms against WoW, but one thing I think it did very very well was make each class, and often within that class, each build, play remarkably different than others. A Shaman does not play like a Warlock does not play like a Warrior. And that's fun. Coming up with 100 different ways to play the same class is fun too, but only if those ways aren't generic repeats of other classes as well. Making a mage that plays like a warrior isn't really 'build diversity' as much as 'build overlap', and claiming there are '100's of different setups' is pretty misleading.


I'm not going to sit here and try to convince you I played Diablo II, I don't feel I need to convince random people on the internet that I've played a game, if you don't want to believe I did, or you disagree with what I am saying, that's fine, it's a fucking video game.

So far I very much enjoy Path of Exile more than Diablo III, which I enjoyed a great deal, but not as much as Diablo II. I never said that PoE was better than D3, I said, (paraphrasing) it's more in line with what I'm looking for and how I like to play games.

I enjoyed Diablo III, I have many hours into that game, and I intend to put many more hours into that game over the years, just like I did with Diablo II. But Path of Exile is boatloads of fun for other reasons, the least of which are the sphere grid and the materia system (though I do like them a lot and see great potential in them).

The main reason I enjoy PoE more right now is that the game has managed to challenge me, and make me actually think about how I am playing, even on normal. Something that Diablo III never did because I picked it up after they nerfed all the challenging content to hell.
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