Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

[Izawwlgood]

They supervise Azula's bending training and teach her how to lightning bend, why would you assume they aren't benders? And even if they aren't, they are very knowledgeable about it so hardly an example of how it isn't necessary to advance.

Because at the end of the series, when Azula tells them to fight in an Agnai Kai, they both say, simultaneously, "But Azula, we're not Benders".

The tanks likely use bending for a power source and scout balloons definitely do.

You are basing this on nothing. We don't know what powers the tanks, but we know most of the scout balloons are powered by shovelling coal into a boilers. We only see a vehicle powered by bending ONCE in the series, when Zuko firebends into the boiler of the scout zepplein with Sokka. Given that we see the Zepplelins being flown by that inventor guy, I'm pretty confident they aren't solely powered by fire bending.

Actually, I semi-take that back; the Earth Kingdom APCs they use on the eclipse day battle are definitely powered by Earth Bending.

I think similarly radio and

My point isn't that this tech couldn't have arisen, but that because Republic City is such a melting pot, that Bending based technologies or ways of life are being phased out.

I actually almost wonder if the theme of this show is going to be how Bending is bringing the world out of harmony.

[cephalopod9]

I don't remember Lee and Lo's positions being explained. There were pictures of them as young women in the beach house, and they seem to be around Azula most of the time.

At any rate, the point is less about whether or not all the most powerful people are benders, but whether or not non-benders (in Republic City) are or feel disadvantaged.

Bending does have a lot of industrial applications and ways of bypassing mechanical solutions (like Omashu's mail system, and the ice gates and bridges in the Southern Water Tribe) but it's still human-power. There are going to be limits to how much, and for how long a bender can power a machine without exhausting themselves, it probably doesn't scale up easily or well, and not a lot of highly skilled individuals are going to sign up to be a battery. I mean, we don't have any power plants that are run with athletes on hamster wheels.

I'll also say again, I think that the leap in technology between this series and last is pretty comparable to the leap between about 1850 and 1920, in the same amount of time, that actually happened. If not a bit slower given that the Fire Nation had fleets of steam powered ships at the start of the invasion, more than 170 years earlier.

...What is this that tvtropes is pointing out on Amon's wall?

[Izawwlgood]

New episode!

Spoiler:

Anyone find it really cool that the episode started with the gym leader, presumably a non-bender, exploiting Mako and Bolin? This series is going to be significantly more nuanced than TLA, instead of being 'evil firenation military vs innocent world' it seems like it will be 'people use power to exploit other people'. Way cooler.

Also, curious thought about the end;

Spoiler:

I'm not convinced Amon can remove bending abilities forever, or that he's even spirit bending. No light, no roaring silence, no 'war of wills' like when Aang spirit bent. I think something else is going on, perhaps even, that it's simply Chi blocking, maybe with a drug to induce weakness, and Amon and the mob bosses are in on it together. Bolin being there kind of wrenches my theory.

[Angua]

Spoiler:

Yeah, the spirit bending was definitely a lot more low key than TLA. It was interesting that Mako's story was so similar to Amon's story as well - I guess to highlight that people can come to different conclusions under slightly different circumstances (one is a bender, and the other doesn't seem to be?).

I thought it was cool seeing the artificial electricity bending. It definitely highlighted the idea of 'out with the old, in with the new.'

All the firebenders seem to be able to bend electricity these days too.

[Izawwlgood]

Spoiler:

The notion of fire benders lightening bending into a power plant kind was really cool, but it also kind of annoyed me. On the one hand, I think it underlines nicely why the age of bending is sort of coming to a close, but on the other, argues against Amon's notion that bending is simply a destructive force. Curiouser still that they chose Fire bending to be the 'power the power plant' style, considering Fire bending is the only bending type to create something from nothing.

[Lucrece]

I would enjoy this show MUCH more if the target audience were raised. Right now it feels bogged by dumbed down dialogue and too much cliche archetyping. It's one of the things that has me burnt out on animated media for teenage/young adult audiences. It's stereotypical, two dimensional character upon another.

Seriously, how many times can authors resort to "distant but secretly sensible orphan; cool, handsome kid misunderstood due to rough upbringing" and "impetuous youth who learns conveniently just when shit is about to hit the fan"? And the whole pigtail-pulling romance made strictly to pander to immature teens, I need to ignore a lot. Yet, the series has such good production values and execution. The art is beautiful, the voice acting is not so bad, and the world shows the depth that characters lack. Not expecting Mad Man stupid kind of cryptic for a show on Nick, but come on -- you could try something new for a change instead of repackaging age old personalities and scenarios under a different aesthetic.

[Izawwlgood]

What's particularly curious is that they know their target audience, that is, fans of TLA, are probably at least mid-teens by now.

[Box Boy]

What I'm really confused by is that you think that the characters of the original series lack depth.

Seriously, the cast has some of the most well defined, fully rounded animated characters out there, and best the vast majority of live action stuff as well IMHO.

[Isaac Hill]

If there's a Big Lots near you, check the DVD section. I've found a few AtLA DVD's (5 episodes each) for $3.

Spoilers through LoK, Book 1, Ep 3:

Spoiler:

Maybe Aang's glowing while spirtbending was due to him having to go into the Avatar state to use it, not due to spiritbending itself. It's like in the pilot, when Aang falls overboard while escaping Zuko's ship and has to go glowy to waterbend his way out, since he hasn't mastered waterbending yet. Ozai's glowing would have been a reaction to Aang's glowing since their spirits were interacting so closely.

Amon would have had an easier time spiritbending since he's presumably practiced it before his Revelation. Plus, Zolt might have a weaker will than Ozai and put up less of a fight. Making Amon's skills a sham would be a pretty big cop-out, like finding out that Sozin's comet wasn't coming after all. I'd much rather it be a real skill, with Korra having to master spiritbending herself to undo Amon's damage, maybe give bending abilities to nonbenders and achieve equality that way.

ceph - I assumed Aang built the temple to ensure Republic City represented all four elements. Roku built the temple where he spoke to Aang via statue on the solstice, so building a temple is within an Avatar's abilities. There were a few other people in Air Nomad clothes in the temple dining hall, but I don't think any of them had tattoos, so you're probably right about it being cultural. Maybe they're Tenzin's neices and nephews?

I agree with everyone who said Korra's personality lends itself to problems learning earthbending. She actually reminds me a lot of Toph. Now I'm trying to remember what Toph said after metalbending her captors in their own box and declared herself the greatest earth bender. It wasn't "You gotta deal with it", but it was pretty close.

It's just that the characters stating something counter to the mythology AtLA established kind of distracts me for a bit and takes me out of the show. The same thing happened when Tenzin said only the Avatar has ever been able to spiritbend, as the lion turtle said spiritbending predated the Avatar. Then I realized that AtLA ended 4 years ago, so lots of children probably don't remember it. Overly referencing the earlier show would just turn off new viewers. It's not so much retconning as it is glossing over details that would take too long to explain in context of the older show.

[Izawwlgood]

Spoiler:

It's just that the characters stating something counter to the mythology AtLA established kind of distracts me for a bit and takes me out of the show. The same thing happened when Tenzin said only the Avatar has ever been able to spiritbend, as the lion turtle said spiritbending predated the Avatar. Then I realized that AtLA ended 4 years ago, so lots of children probably don't remember it. Overly referencing the earlier show would just turn off new viewers. It's not so much retconning as it is glossing over details that would take too long to explain in context of the older show.

Spoiler:

That's not a retcon at all; my guess is Aang told his son what he did to Ozai, but didn't recant the speech the Lion Turtle gave him. So, as far as Tenzin is concerned, in modern times, only the Avatar can/has spirit bent. Your complaint is largely one of a technicality too; do you see any Lion Turtles around Republic City spirit bending away? Neither did Tenzin.

[Weeks]

I dislike plot contrivances. Learning something at the last moment is overdone, and so are the archetypes you mentioned. Sadly, the art quality of this show compels me to overlook these flaws.

Then again...shows can't be perfect, yadda yadda.

[Izawwlgood]

The 'can modify others powers' is a very over used trope in virtually all cool fantasy/sci-fi. I don't fault Avatar for using it.

And I'm with Box Boy; the character development and nuance was extraordinary in this show. I don't like Korra as much as I liked Aang, but I'm 3 episodes in.

[Diadem]

Spoiler:

It's just that the characters stating something counter to the mythology AtLA established kind of distracts me for a bit and takes me out of the show. The same thing happened when Tenzin said only the Avatar has ever been able to spiritbend, as the lion turtle said spiritbending predated the Avatar. Then I realized that AtLA ended 4 years ago, so lots of children probably don't remember it. Overly referencing the earlier show would just turn off new viewers. It's not so much retconning as it is glossing over details that would take too long to explain in context of the older show.

Spoiler:

That's not a retcon at all; my guess is Aang told his son what he did to Ozai, but didn't recant the speech the Lion Turtle gave him. So, as far as Tenzin is concerned, in modern times, only the Avatar can/has spirit bent. Your complaint is largely one of a technicality too; do you see any Lion Turtles around Republic City spirit bending away? Neither did Tenzin.

Spoiler:

Agreed. And even if Aang told this to Tenzin, that doesn't make Tenzin's statement a lie, not really. The distinction between "No one ever" and "No one in the past 10,000 years" is not that relevant. Especially considering Tenzin likes to be brief.

Some thoughts on spirit-bending:

We don't know why people changed from spirit bending to element bending either. Maybe the spirits intervened and changed the rules for some reason, really making the avatar the only person able to do it (until now). Amon may even be telling the truth when he says the spirits gave him that power. It's a logical explanation for how he got it. We know the spirits don't always agree with each other, and that some are evil, he may well be in the service of some less-than-kind spirits. (Or he's in the service of good spirits, and Korra is the evil one. Now *that* would be a plot twist).

Come to think of it, the island-sized sea turtle that gave Aang spirit bending was a spirit as well (In AtLA it's mentioned explicitly by that tracker-girl that Aang is not in the world when they are looking for him while he's on the island). And even in the avatar state (where he has all knowledge of his previous incarnations) he didn't know it existed until the lion-turtle told him. So Aang's spirit bending is spirit-given, not something natural to avatars.

[Joeldi]

I agree that a lot of Episode 3 seemed dumbed down. Act 1 and 2 seemed to be using some really generic dialogue and plotting. Nearly all of the lines were making me think "Man, where have I heard that exact sentence a thousand times before?"

The third act and all of the action scenes were pretty damn awesome though. The biggest problem I'm having with the series is that it feels so different from TLA. That's bound to pass.

[Argency]

I'm loving this series a lot more than the original. I think the plot is better and more complex and I love the setting and the music. I'm not in love with any of the characters yet but that's more because I sympathise with the anti-bending movement at least as much as I do with Korra and Co.

I think the reason it seems simple is because the characters are still being stupid at this point.

Spoiler:

The people are being oppressed by bending crime bosses to the point where they're in uproar and a charismatic rebellion-leader figure has appeared, and Korra is going around beating up street preachers and then running away from the cops? I can't think of anything more likely to rile up the masses even more. The kids are gonna have to wise up, learn that it isn't benders vs. normals, rather it's criminals vs. society. The bender crime lords are bad guys, and Ammon and his vigilante's are ALSO bad guys. Korra needs to oppose both groups in a lawful fashion, but she's too hotheaded to see it.

[Derek]

Spoiler:

Do we even know that Amon was spirit bending? My first guess would be something more along the lines of permanent chi-blocking.

[PCal]

Spoiler:

From the placement of his hands I thought it was spirit bending.

Also too continue from the last post about the conflict of the series now that Ive seen another episode

Spoiler:

So I guess I was wrong in assuming the conflict was bender vs non-benders. Its actually people that are good vs people that are bad and realizing that having a power doesn't make you bad doing bad things does. It may get hard to watch as they take an entire season/series for the main characters to realize crime is the main problem and the spirit bending vigilante Amon is just a product of this and removing him will fix nothing. Also I hope this series get a Iroh type character you know someone insanely wise who will subtlety offer up advice but let people choose for their own because Tenzin is just not cutting it.

[Argency]

I totally agree about Tenzin.

Spoiler:

I predict that they're either about to meet a fourth member for their fellowship who will be a non-bender, or that this season's Iroh will be a non-bender, or both.

[Joeldi]

So Episode 4 leaked a few days early. I was a tiny bit let down by episode 3, but episode 4 was great (though there were still one or two tired cliches at play). The highlight for me, was of course,

Spoiler:

The brief montage of the Gaang, and a hint at their history. I hope we're leading directly into a Korra meets Aang spirit world adventure for ep 5 or 6. No matter how good this show is, if that doesn't happen eventually I'll be disappointed.

Lots of people I've spoken to think Asami is working for Amon or some other bad guys, but I'm thinking that won't be quite true.

[Diadem]

Reply to Joeldi (E4 spoilers)

Spoiler:

I doubt Asami is working for Amon. She wasn't portrayed as evil in any way, and her father seems rather nice too. She might become the non-bender member of the team, though her romance with Mako seems to be going a bit too fast for that.

I definitely got evil vibes from Tarrlok though.

Favorite part of the episode: Tenzin going purple from shock at the party.

[cephalopod9]

Episode 4!

Spoiler:

How great would it be if they for reals put to rest any "love triangle" business right here?
It didn't go how I expected (episode 2 it seemed like Bolin was just interested in any fan girl, and Mako had more smoldery feelings) but I like the introduction Asami and the Korra Bolin dynamic was endearing.
The air bender family was great, but I'm a little sad Pema didn't get any lines.
I want to see more of Captain(?) Lin. I want her and Korra to have a "I don't like you, and you don't like me, but we have to work together!"-learn to get along episode.

Spoiler:

Lots of people I've spoken to think Asami is working for Amon or some other bad guys, but I'm thinking that won't be quite true.

Spoiler:

I didn't read anything sinister into her, or her father, but I did get the sense that there might be a "sell your soul" conflict coming up, with the sponsorship and the industrialism.
Ooh, and seems like the sponsorship deal might play into Tarrlok's ploys to manipulate Korra, because he and Sato seem to know eachother.

I'm going to go check up on the nickelodeon website.

[Angua]

Spoiler:

Does anyone think that the vision of an airbender at the end was actualy Amon, not Aang?

[Ryom]

I wonder if Mako was named in honor of Uncle Iroh's late voice-actor...

[PCal]

I totally agree about Tenzin.

Spoiler:

I predict that they're either about to meet a fourth member for their fellowship who will be a non-bender, or that this season's Iroh will be a non-bender, or both.

Spoiler:

Well you were right about the fourth member it looks like. Also I think Sato assuming hes not a bender could be a large positive force in the series who better to show that non-benders can do stuff and are on equal footing then the owner of the most powerful industrial company in the city. Also the kids are great I love the comedy they bring.

[Izawwlgood]

Spoiler:

Does anyone think that the vision of an airbender at the end was actualy Amon, not Aang?

Spoiler:

No, I'm fairly certain it's a shot of adult Sokka (hair style), adult Toph (blind chick and hair style and clothing) and two shots of Aang. Who, might I add, looks pretty studly. What I did find surprising is that we're not going to see 'Old Man Aang', although, I'm not sure if he died young, or aged more rapidly. Still, he would have been in his late 50's or early 60's when he passed, right? Tenzin looks strikingly older than he did.

[Box Boy]

Spoiler:

Seventy years have passed since the end of the first series - and with Korra being seventeen, that means that Aang died 53 years after, which would put him somewhere roughly in the range of s late 65 to a very early 67 years old at death, I believe, assuming that Avatars reincarnate immediately (and accounting for pregnancy).

I wonder if Mako was named in honor of Uncle Iroh's late voice-actor...

Yeah, he was.

[cephalopod9]

Spoiler:

Well you were right about the fourth member it looks like. Also I think Sato assuming hes not a bender could be a large positive force in the series who better to show that non-benders can do stuff and are on equal footing then the owner of the most powerful industrial company in the city. Also the kids are great I love the comedy they bring.

Spoiler:

I'm pretty sure the Satos are non-benders. (Asami wears red, and has bright green eyes, I think they might be another Fire Nation and Earth Kingdom family.)
However, they seem to be on friendly terms with Tarrlok, and they are successful and probably very rich.
The self-made success story Sato shares with Mako definitely makes me think that if there's a question of whether it's more important that people with exceptional skills get to exercise them and benefit from them, or if it's more important that everyone has the same opportunities and treatment, he would side with the first. There's some obvious shout-outs to Henry Ford, and he's a definite captain of industry/robber baron type. I don't think there's much question of whether his allegiance is with the side of personal freedom, although I could see him becoming Korra's enemy.

wow, That was difficult to try and describe without charged or opinionated language; I'm really impressed with how thought out, and real-world complex and challenging the conflicts in this series are.

Spoiler:

Does anyone think that the vision of an airbender at the end was actualy Amon, not Aang?

I saw some speculation that Amon was

Spoiler:

ex-Fire Lord Ozai, and that doesn't make sense because Ozai would be super old, and Amon isn't, but it wouldn't surprise me if Ozai took on that sort of philosophy and The Equalist movement could definitely be part of the aftermath of removing Ozai's bendning ability, both directly (re)introducing the idea that it's possible to do, and because it's a clear example of being a non-bender meaning oppressed and disenfranchised.
There's also Amon's story about wearing the mask to hide burns on his face. We saw refugees and people with injuries from Fire Nation soldiers, but I'm pretty sure we only saw one person with major facial deformities.
I think Amon is connected to Ozai, possibly related the royal family.

[Joeldi]

How depressing would it be if The Promise ended with

Spoiler:

Something terrible happening to Zuko that turns him 'bad', but Aang can't bring himself to kill him, so instead he attempts to do to Zuko/"Amon" what he did to Ozai, but gets overwhelmed because of all the feels he has for his friend. So the spirit bending backfires on Aang, who is killed, and Zuko winds up with energy bending powers. It makes so much sense except from the meta-perspective of Bryke not doing that to a beloved character in a children's show.

[PeteP]

How depressing would it be if The Promise ended with

Spoiler:

Something terrible happening to Zuko that turns him 'bad', but Aang can't bring himself to kill him, so instead he attempts to do to Zuko/"Amon" what he did to Ozai, but gets overwhelmed because of all the feels he has for his friend. So the spirit bending backfires on Aang, who is killed, and Zuko winds up with energy bending powers. It makes so much sense except from the meta-perspective of Bryke not doing that to a beloved character in a children's show.

Spoiler:

I think that would piss me off. A huge part of the Last Airbender was Zukos character development cumulating in him joining Team Avater. Making him "bad" again has a high chance of invalidating much of said development.

[Avin]

Hmm, does anyone know why episode 4 isn't available on nick.com? If I missed it, do I have any legal way of watching the episode still?

[Derek]

Hmm, does anyone know why episode 4 isn't available on nick.com? If I missed it, do I have any legal way of watching the episode still?

I've checked several times yesterday and today and it's not there. Episodes 1-3 are though. Is everyone just watching the leaked version? I'ld really prefer to watch the official release, but episode 4 still isn't up. :/

[The Mighty Thesaurus]

Spoiler:

Does anyone think that the vision of an airbender at the end was actualy Amon, not Aang?

Spoiler:

He has Fire Nation eyes

[Joeldi]

Spoiler:

I think that would piss me off. A huge part of the Last Airbender was Zukos character development cumulating in him joining Team Avater. Making him "bad" again has a high chance of invalidating much of said development.

Spoiler:

Don't get me wrong, I would absolutely hate that too, and if it happens, I'll feel gipped, but I think it's a good explanation for 1) Why Aang died 18 years ago when Katara is still fit as a fiddle 2) Why Amon has scars and wears a mask 3) How Amon can Energy bend and 4) Why The Promise called "The Promise", when we've been told it's more about the founding of Republic City.

[Izawwlgood]

You guys should stop postulating on these non-nonsensical possibilities, and should just read the comic that's out that shows some interesting post TLA conflict. What you're posing doesn't fit with anything.

[cephalopod9]

Republic City

Spoiler:

has statues of both Aang and Zuko. It was possible to miss, but in Central City Station (nick.com has a neat interactive where you can see more info on it/where Zuko is now), the down town area where Mako and Korra go to look for information on Bolin's disappearance, there's a big statue of Zuko holding a flame. Both statues look quite a bit younger than late 60's, and Tarrlok mentions Aang facing an enemy, I think, within Republic City. Which means that Republic City was founded a while before Aangs death.
There haven't been any hints as to how Aang died, although he was technically 166, not just 66 years of age, and I really don't think it had to do with Zuko.

[Diadem]

How depressing would it be if The Promise ended with

Spoiler:

Something terrible happening to Zuko that turns him 'bad', but Aang can't bring himself to kill him, so instead he attempts to do to Zuko/"Amon" what he did to Ozai, but gets overwhelmed because of all the feels he has for his friend. So the spirit bending backfires on Aang, who is killed, and Zuko winds up with energy bending powers. It makes so much sense except from the meta-perspective of Bryke not doing that to a beloved character in a children's show.

Spoiler:

I think that would piss me off. A huge part of the Last Airbender was Zukos character development cumulating in him joining Team Avater. Making him "bad" again has a high chance of invalidating much of said development.

Spoiler:

It's stated somewhere that Zuko is actually still alive, and only recently (a few years ago) passed on his throne to his daughter. So this story doesn't add up.

[Belial]

Spoiler:

I think the disparity in the appearance of the spirit bending can be put down to perspective. When we saw Aang spirit-bend, we saw the conflict from his perspective. When we saw Amon do it, we saw it from the point of view of an onlooker. It's entirely possible that all the glowy-colours were only visible to Aang.

Furthermore, something that happened in episode 4 makes me think they wanted to tone it down to conceal the "conflict of spirits" mechanic because they didn't want it at the forefront of your mind. Specifically, I think it will be revealed later that the reason Amon issued that incredibly weak "I could take your bending away easily, but I won't, because of reasons" villain speech is because he's absolutely shit-scared. He's a strong, charismatic person and he's pretty confident that he can overpower mob-bosses and legbreakers, but he's afraid that if he goes spirit-to-spirit with the Avatar (to say nothing of the possibility that she calls up the power of all previous avatars), that he'll get his soul handed back to him thinly sliced with hollandaise sauce and a pureed-soul amuse-bouche. So he's exploring other options, while trying to keep that weakness hidden and the avatar scared.

Speaking of which, is anyone else intrigued that we've never seen Korra use the avatar-state? Aang was whipping that shit out all the time, despite being terrified of it, but she just doesn't seem to rely on it much, despite being the type of personality that would consider the power boost to be an utter practicality. It's interesting.

[Izawwlgood]

Spoiler:

Korra started talking about how the spirituality stuff doesn't come easily to her. How her skill lies in the physical action of Bending, not the spiritual side of it. Aang spent his childhood studying under the Air Nomads, who we know are basically all spiritual all the time. I wager that has something to do with it. Although I was surprised Korra's Avatar state didn't kick in when Amon looked like he was about to take away her bending.

As for the glowing being from Aangs perspective, I think that's off mark; didn't the view cut back at one point to show people looking at the beam of blue light from afar?

[cephalopod9]

Spoiler:

Korra's also been a lot more sheltered, and a lot of Aang's time in the Avatar State was related to emotional trauma, and dire situations.

Furthermore, something that happened in episode 4 makes me think they wanted to tone it down to conceal the "conflict of spirits" mechanic because they didn't want it at the forefront of your mind. Specifically, I think it will be revealed later that the reason Amon issued that incredibly weak "I could take your bending away easily, but I won't, because of reasons" villain speech is because he's absolutely shit-scared. He's a strong, charismatic person and he's pretty confident that he can overpower mob-bosses and legbreakers, but he's afraid that if he goes spirit-to-spirit with the Avatar (to say nothing of the possibility that she calls up the power of all previous avatars), that he'll get his soul handed back to him thinly sliced with hollandaise sauce and a pureed-soul amuse-bouche. So he's exploring other options, while trying to keep that weakness hidden and the avatar scared.

Something I noticed from the show wiki, their entry on "energy bending" points out that Aang puts his hand over Ozai's forehead and his heart. Amon only does the forehead thing.

[Izawwlgood]

Spoiler:

The Lion Turtle also touches Aangs forehead and heart when he teaches him, and we see a green flash, implying, I thought, that the Lion Turtle's spirit was not of one of the four elements (in and of itself somewhat interesting!)