Black Panther

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Re: Black Panther

Postby Zohar » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:17 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:I saw a lot of comments about that to the effect of, What can I break that MBJ will then personally offer to replace?

The obvious response is a sex toy.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Jorpho » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:24 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Indeed, that's not what I stated at all. Hence my point.
You didn't explicitly state that you have a double standard
Well, bloody heck! I didn't explicitly state that the sum of the square roots of any two sides of an isosceles triangle is equal to the square root of the remaining side either, did I?! It's quite impossible to communicate if you can't possibly resist turning everything into demonic straw men, thank you very much. Did someone hurt you or something?

Let's try this one more time.

On the one hand, we have a young individual apparently alone in a spotless technological facility, supposedly responsible for a ginormous, gleaming infrastructure project, surely the product of many years of labor. On the other hand, we have an older individual of highly questionable mental integrity working amidst piles of junk on a comparatively tiny project that doesn't even work right.

See that? See how there's no reference to race or gender or tacos or giraffes in either of those two sentences? Yes, I may be implying that older people may possess different capabilities than younger people and I am sure I am going to hell for such irresponsible heresy.

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Re: Black Panther

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:40 am UTC

I do see possible room for questioning how someone as young as Shuri could have just had the time in her life to implement such a large-scale infrastructure project, but then again this is a sci-fi techno-utopia that for all we know has full automation handling all testing and manufacturing and Shuri just had to have the genius engineering insight and then told the robots to get to it.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby natraj » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:45 am UTC

Weeks wrote:
Jorpho wrote:
but let a black girl do it and it's a problem.
Welp, nevermind, guess we can't have that conversation.
wait, why. Please tell us why we cant have that conversation. I dont quite understand.


i'm still curious about this tbh.

creating smarter weapons, advanced robotics, satellite targeting. today, tony stark has changed the face of the weapons industry by ensuring freedom and protecting america and her interests around the globe


the very weapons i created to defend them and protect them


these are direct quotes first ABOUT and second BY tony stark in IM1 (i'm sure i could do IM2 & 3 too but who has time for that) giving tony credit for/taking credit for inventing things that are, undoubtedly, stark industries creations that required teams of researchers and entire labs & factories worth of fabrication. but that's fine when tony does it in front of the press, god forbid a young black woman talking privately in her lab do the same!

black panther directly says that shuri is the head of wakanda's research group. literally, explicitly, says this. you can choose to ignore that, but it's actually a plot point and everything (w'kabi is mad that they have let shuri TAKE OVER THE RESEARCH DEPARTMENT in the kingdom -- she is heading up an entire research TEAM and he is MAD so no, it isn't shuri inventing everything alone by herself forever regardless of your apparent inability to extrapolate from things that the plot has made Really Clear)

regardless shuri is a Total Nerd and a Workaholic. also made textually EVIDENT as movies like to do when she immediately wants to continue improving her designs even though they work and makes this clear to t'challa -- "how many times to i have to tell you just because it works perfectly doesn't mean it can't be improved?" -- so it makes perfect sense that she often is working in her lab even when it's not necessary, just like OTHER nerds of the mcu often do. you see tony stark working (alone! in his lab!) all the time too.

but for some reason since before this movie even came out there's been piles and piles of complains about how flagrantly unrealistic it is that this young black girl (with the riches and resources of literally the wealthiest and most technologically advanced nation in the entire planet at her disposal) dare be smart and accomplished, when we never see similar complaints about other genuises of the mcu. weird how that happens.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Jorpho » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:53 am UTC

natraj wrote:black panther directly says that shuri is the head of wakanda's research group. literally, explicitly, says this. you can choose to ignore that, but it's actually a plot point and everything (w'kabi is mad that they have let shuri TAKE OVER THE RESEARCH DEPARTMENT in the kingdom -- she is heading up an entire research TEAM and he is MAD so no, it isn't shuri inventing everything alone by herself forever regardless of your apparent inability to extrapolate from things that the plot has made Really Clear)

regardless shuri is a Total Nerd and a Workaholic.
Why yes, it is common to criticize a film for telling instead of showing and if I'm not mistaken we have already covered in this thread that it is unfortunate we see so little of Wakanda, including said team.

(See that? See how there's no reference to gender or race or salmon fillets in that sentence either?)

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Re: Black Panther

Postby natraj » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:56 am UTC

yeah hey it's funny how neither this film nor your comments take place in a vacuum and you don't need to explicitly mention race literally ever for there to be sexist & racist undertones to all your critiques!
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Jorpho » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:14 am UTC

natraj wrote:you don't need to explicitly mention race literally ever for there to be sexist & racist undertones to all your critiques!
Why yes, it does tend to impede conversation if you assume the absolute worst possible connotations in the other party's statements.

Am I paraphrasing right?

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Re: Black Panther

Postby Angua » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:16 am UTC

When T'Challa first walks into Shuri's lab, you see at least 3 other women (nice touch) in the background, working on things. Most of the movie takes place in her private office/lab whathaveyou, but there are other people there.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby natraj » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:21 am UTC

see, that's the thing, i'm not assuming anything whatsoever about the intention or connotation of your statements. i am explaining to you the impact of your statement given the overall context of the society we live in and the double standards applied to white men (and specifically, the other white men in the very same universe we're talking about) vs. the similarly positioned black woman being discussed. it's completely irrelevant whether you're thinking hateful racist thoughts or whatever fantasy image you have of what Being Racist Looks Like. the fact of the matter is that people judge black women by a different standard, don't accept black women's intelligence/authority/etc with the same readiness that they accept it of white women or especially white men, require black women to prove themselves to a higher degree to be seen as legitimate in their positions, and all of these things have been true in the ways that dialogue around shuri -- including yours, right here -- have delegitimized her as unrealistic/unreasonable as the genius authority in charge of wakandan research as compared to other people in extremely advanced/genius/authoritative positions of Nonsense Science Development in the MCU. it's a pattern that happens frequently, and you're just one part of it, and i don't have to assume one single thing about your intention to point out that your statements fall into and contribute to this racist, sexist pattern, because they do.

also, jorpho, you're literally the one who said from the beginning

Jorpho wrote:Welp, nevermind, guess we can't have that conversation.


and then persistently refused to explain that statement so i'm hardly the one impeding conversation but go off.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:18 am UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
Zohar wrote:That made absolutely zero sense to me.
Spoiler:
What possible reason do you have for not immediately shooting Klaue? At best - you kill him and you have the gratitude of your partner,
and if you want to off her you still have the chance to do so while she's grateful and not considering protecting herself from you. At worst you
miss and hit her instead, in which case she dies and you have to chase after Klaue. Shooting her right away accomplishes... what exactly? Klaue gets to live a few more minutes and you risk a more intense fire fight.


Spoiler:
Agreed.

Shooting her and then not immediately shooting Klaue is...strange. I think they were aiming for the "willing to go through her to get revenge" but the situation as shown doesn't completely sell that as the only possibility. Trying for the headshot on Klaue would have been fine. Shooting her and then immediately shooting Klaue would have been...not as good, but better than shooting her, and then just watching Klaue get away before engaging him.

I'm not opposed to the villainous character setting his priorities poorly, but they ought to be reasonably consistent. Shit, why even wait until then? Why not off Klaue waaay earlier, before the heist? You stole a chunk of vibranium from a museum for....why? Was that part of your plan somehow? Did the revenge plan not occur to you until after the casino scene? If so, that's...a little odd, given the rest of it. If not, then you took a needlessly complicated, costly way of enacting your revenge.

No argument on the main point of the spoiler. On the secondary point:
Spoiler:
Killmonger wasn't just looking for access to Wakanda - he could have killed Klaue and turned up with his head any time in the last decade or so - and been met by a strong King T'Chaka and shuffled off somewhere where he's not a threat to entrenched power. Or he could have rocked up after T'Challa's coronation and, again, given a position befitting a lesser member of the ruling clan. Killmonger's plan was to embarrass a vulnerable new king before his power and policies could become entrenched, and to establish himself as better by doing something the existing king tried and failed to achieve (because Killmonger was working with Klaue, rescued him from T'Challa's allies, and then betrayed him, but no need to bring up those details).

The heist was a vital part of the plan - either T'Challa did nothing, and Killmonger became the man who acted when the Black Panther was afraid to; or T'Challa tried to capture Klaue for Wakandan justice and failed (either failing to capture in the first place, or failing to keep), in which case, well, we know what happened; or T'Challa succeeded, and Killmonger had to come up with a new plan. With Killmonger's capabilities as a complete unknown to T'Challa and his allies, successfully defending Klaue from him wasn't likely, and, so long as Killmonger was willing to cut his losses and walk away if things didn't seem promising, he had an excellent chance of getting away clean and only marginally worsening his position by allowing T'Challa to succeed (and a success for T'Challa would come at a cost anyway - he couldn't readily have satisfied both the CIA and his own people).

The probability of loss was minimal, the cost of losing was pretty low, the probability of a win was high, and the benefit of winning was a chance to achieve all his strategic aims in one stroke. Seems like a worthwhile gambit to me.


Spoiler:
Yeah, but...how does he know the internal politics of Wakanda? How does he know that at that moment, the leader of the military would grow disenchanted with T'Challa? There's no communication there, and Wakanda is supposedly isolationist.

How would he even know that T'Challa would come after Klaue at that time? If memory serves, he isn't even at the event when they attempt to take Klaue down, so....either he doesn't know, or he doesn't care? I mean, I guess I can write up his knowledge of the CIA interrogation facility to his military background, even though that also feels undeserved(Klaue giving Killmonger a means to track him constantly seems...like it ought to have come up sooner, gonna just ignore that), but Killmonger's plan makes no sense. He doesn't have spies within Wakanda, and his knowledge ought not be nearly so complete as it is.


Jorpho wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:Shuri is canonically the smartest (human) character in the MCU, plus she's making stuff in a state-of-the art lab in the most technologically advanced country in the world, rather than a cave in the desert.
What stuck in my craw, perhaps unreasonably, was the line about "I designed a sonic dampening system for deactivating vibranium at high speeds!" I cannot suspend my disbelief that a system of that size and complexity wouldn't require an arduous prototyping phase hammered out over a span of many years by a gigantic team of engineers. I guess maybe she's a prodigy who designed it when she was twelve, and the marvels of Wakanda include advanced project management techniques, or something.


Eh, it seemed like an obvious "well, we have to have the hero lose invincibility for there to be any real stakes". I'm willing to overlook a certain degree of engineering realism in a world with Tony Stark in it. But BP does have a problem in that he pretty much has to choose to face any actual danger. I don't mind Shuri being a brilliant engineer. It's more that it's also odd for her to also be their ER doctor and such. Shuri ought to have flunkies. It's a standard, realistic trapping of genius and power, which she is portrayed as having. It'd be as if Dr Strange also held two other jobs while being a doctor, and nobody worked with him on any of it. Comics are about exceptional individuals, but if they're exceptional at everything, and have no underlings, you run into Superman problems. Must resist temptation to rant about DC here.

It's not a problem with Shuri. It's not even exclusive to her, I pointed out a similar example with another character. It's just a problem with Wakanda feeling to small, given their choices.

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Re: Black Panther

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:19 am UTC

Zohar wrote:That made absolutely zero sense to me.
Spoiler:
What possible reason do you have for not immediately shooting Klaue? At best - you kill him and you have the gratitude of your partner,
and if you want to off her you still have the chance to do so while she's grateful and not considering protecting herself from you. At worst you
miss and hit her instead, in which case she dies and you have to chase after Klaue. Shooting her right away accomplishes... what exactly? Klaue gets to live a few more minutes and you risk a more intense fire fight.

Spoiler:
Klaue reminded him he still had a weakness, something Wakanda could exploit - her. So he removed her.


Now to read the rest of this thread where I'm sure no one has made any colossally ignorant statements.


.......

Never mind. Jesus Christ.

Good lord.

1. Where the fuck did anyone say Shuri hand-crafted every single solitary piece of tech on screen instead of...maybe simply inheriting centuries of scientific progress?

Near as I can tell, she made improvements to the transportation system in the mine - not created, improvements, made shoes that are never spoken of again, and improved some (probably existing) technologies, like the disabling disks and remote controller. And the shoes look like implementations of existing technologies.

I mean, I'm not trying to sell her short as an engineer here, but it's pretty goddamn clear she has had educational and existing technological advancements Stark would probably give both legs and an arm for.

2. Medicine.
Spoiler:
Given this is the second outsider brought in for medical treatment, presumably the first on the order of the king and most certainly in the second case, maybe they were trying to keep shit quiet?

Or am I just taking crazy pills here?
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Re: Black Panther

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:30 am UTC

Jorpho wrote:
natraj wrote:but let a black girl do it and it's a problem.
Welp, nevermind, guess we can't have that conversation.

Oh, hey Jorpho. Say shit like this in a similar context again without also demonstrating a clear understanding of race relations (particularly in the 1500-2000 eras) and you're off the forum.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:02 am UTC

Also just a general protip: If you don't want to have discussions about race that may include feeling uncomfortable because people call on you to face the fact that you are as capable as anyone else of being racist even without intending to, then don't pick Black Panther of all things to be whitely fragile about.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby rmsgrey » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:28 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:No argument on the main point of the spoiler. On the secondary point:
Spoiler:
Killmonger wasn't just looking for access to Wakanda - he could have killed Klaue and turned up with his head any time in the last decade or so - and been met by a strong King T'Chaka and shuffled off somewhere where he's not a threat to entrenched power. Or he could have rocked up after T'Challa's coronation and, again, given a position befitting a lesser member of the ruling clan. Killmonger's plan was to embarrass a vulnerable new king before his power and policies could become entrenched, and to establish himself as better by doing something the existing king tried and failed to achieve (because Killmonger was working with Klaue, rescued him from T'Challa's allies, and then betrayed him, but no need to bring up those details).

The heist was a vital part of the plan - either T'Challa did nothing, and Killmonger became the man who acted when the Black Panther was afraid to; or T'Challa tried to capture Klaue for Wakandan justice and failed (either failing to capture in the first place, or failing to keep), in which case, well, we know what happened; or T'Challa succeeded, and Killmonger had to come up with a new plan. With Killmonger's capabilities as a complete unknown to T'Challa and his allies, successfully defending Klaue from him wasn't likely, and, so long as Killmonger was willing to cut his losses and walk away if things didn't seem promising, he had an excellent chance of getting away clean and only marginally worsening his position by allowing T'Challa to succeed (and a success for T'Challa would come at a cost anyway - he couldn't readily have satisfied both the CIA and his own people).

The probability of loss was minimal, the cost of losing was pretty low, the probability of a win was high, and the benefit of winning was a chance to achieve all his strategic aims in one stroke. Seems like a worthwhile gambit to me.


Spoiler:
Yeah, but...how does he know the internal politics of Wakanda? How does he know that at that moment, the leader of the military would grow disenchanted with T'Challa? There's no communication there, and Wakanda is supposedly isolationist.

How would he even know that T'Challa would come after Klaue at that time? If memory serves, he isn't even at the event when they attempt to take Klaue down, so....either he doesn't know, or he doesn't care? I mean, I guess I can write up his knowledge of the CIA interrogation facility to his military background, even though that also feels undeserved(Klaue giving Killmonger a means to track him constantly seems...like it ought to have come up sooner, gonna just ignore that), but Killmonger's plan makes no sense. He doesn't have spies within Wakanda, and his knowledge ought not be nearly so complete as it is.


Spoiler:
Internal politics:
1) His father was T'Chaka's brother, had told Erik stories of their homeland, and kept a diary that Erik found. In all of that, there was probably enough background for him to have an idea of the basic divisions underlying Wakandan society, even if it was 20 years out of date.
2) Whatever else Klaue may have been ignorant about when it came to the internal workings of Wakanda, he would have made damn sure to know as much as he could about the people with a personal grudge against him.
3) Killmonger didn't need to know the up to date details of Wakandan internal politics - all his plan needed was for there to be people unhappy with existing policy with enough influence to offer him a political power-base, and to give himself enough legitimacy to challenge for the throne. As the new King and sole wielder of the Black Panther powers, he'd then be in a position to consolidate his position, taking advantage of whatever the internal political situation turned out to be. Finding an immediate ally in W'Kabi could be an explicit part of the plan based on Klaue's intelligence about him, or it could be luck that helped, but wasn't essential to, his plans.

Klaue as bait for T'Challa:
As I said, if T'Challa didn't come after Klaue after his reappearance, Killmonger could just position himself as the Prince who did what the King wouldn't even attempt. Something involving Klaue and Vibranium was guaranteed to appear on Wakanda's radar.
As for Killmonger not being at the sale - AKA the only obvious opportunity for Wakanda to strike at Klaue - that doesn't mean he didn't know when and where it was happening. What do you think Klaue's answer would have been if someone offered to come in and rescue him if he didn't get back to their safe-house? A) "No. You've got to be in the casino with me, no matter whether you might have history with my buyer or not"; B) "Sure. Never hurts to have an ace up your sleeve."

Killmonger didn't need detailed advance knowledge of the current situation in Wakanda - he had a detailed background on the underlying issues, and evidence that nothing had been done to satisfy the people who wanted Wakanda to take a more active role in the world, meaning he knew there would be tensions there - and possibly even which tribes would be most likely to support his position. Knowing historical Wakandan doctrine for external interventions (and presumably at least some of Wakanda's more recent interventions) and Wakandan traditions in some detail, meant he could plan his entry into Wakanda and know exactly what, if not who, to look for.

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Re: Black Panther

Postby pogrmman » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:24 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:2. Medicine.
Spoiler:
Given this is the second outsider brought in for medical treatment, presumably the first on the order of the king and most certainly in the second case, maybe they were trying to keep shit quiet?

Or am I just taking crazy pills here?


Spoiler:
You're certainly not taking crazy pills. My impression is that they were letting her do the treatment because they wanted to keep it a secret. A society like Wakanda surely has loads of other hospitals. If you’re doing the unpopular move of bringing in an outsider for treatment on orders of the king, who better to have treat it than the king’s sister and top expert? That way you assure that it won’t be widely known, so anybody who disagrees with it isn’t really in a position to find out or do anything about it.

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Re: Black Panther

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:28 am UTC

pogrmman wrote:
SecondTalon wrote:2. Medicine.
Spoiler:
Given this is the second outsider brought in for medical treatment, presumably the first on the order of the king and most certainly in the second case, maybe they were trying to keep shit quiet?

Or am I just taking crazy pills here?


Spoiler:
You're certainly not taking crazy pills. My impression is that they were letting her do the treatment because they wanted to keep it a secret. A society like Wakanda surely has loads of other hospitals. If you’re doing the unpopular move of bringing in an outsider for treatment on orders of the king, who better to have treat it than the king’s sister and top expert? That way you assure that it won’t be widely known, so anybody who disagrees with it isn’t really in a position to find out or do anything about it.


Spoiler:
And then she basically gave him a tour of their stuff? I mean, secrecy seemed to be a hit and miss thing. Sometimes they cared, sometimes they didn't.

But regardless, even if you justify Shuri's medical caregiving, you've still got another chap who works as gardener, fightmaster, advisor, and international spy. That's a long list of roles.

We see hints of a broader culture, such as the representatives from each of the four tribes, but we don't see much of them on screen. That would have helped the country feel larger. I quite liked the representation of the mountain tribe, for instance, and that was pretty much the biggest counter-example of making the world feel larger, but we don't really get that from the other ones. Character reuse was simply really high for every other scene that might have served that purpose, and we even have fairly insular relationships. Sure, casting budgets are not limitless, but watch the film a second time, and it'll jump out at you.


That said, I don't mean to be too negative. It's still a Marvel film, and flaws and all, it's still better than many films. Some Marvel films are worse. The flaws are not sufficient to stop it from being an enjoyable watch, at least the first time. Marvel manages to be at least "pretty good", even when significantly changing up the style of movie. The bones of say, Black Panther vs Cap 1 vs Ant Man are all rather different, but Marvel's done better than anyone else at portraying a franchise coherently, while making the films not be just "more of the same". Props to them for that.

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Re: Black Panther

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:31 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Spoiler:
And then she basically gave him a tour of their stuff? I mean, secrecy seemed to be a hit and miss thing. Sometimes they cared, sometimes they didn't.


Spoiler:
Not Wakanda secret from Ross.

Keep Ross a secret from Wakanda.

Outside the Royals, until the shit hit the fan - who did he interact with?

Regarding Forest's character whose name I've forgotten and am too lazy to google - y'all never hear of a High Priest? Dude was totally a High Priest. "High priest of what", hypothetical you asks, "Doesn't there have to be a religion to be a " and I'm gonna need you to shut up right there.

High Priest of the Heart Shaped Herb, basically. Cult of Gardening. Whatever you want to call it, dude's not really loyal to the Royal Family, dude's not even that loyal to the Throne - dude's loyal to the Plant. That's his religion, his calling, his reason. The plant serves the King, so he serves the King, because otherwise the plant has no point.

Dude's the fightmaster... because the fight determines who gets the plant.

High Fucking Priest.

"But what about his spy days" you continue to ask, like an idiot.

Y'all never hear of missionary work? More or less the same idea. Before the High Priest is the High Priest, he's just a member of the order. So he does what his High Priest tells him. And if that task is to keep an eye on the King's Brother and make sure he doesn't do something too stupid (like reveal Wakanda [like reveal the Plant] ) then he's there to solve the problem.

Dude's not a spy. He's an executioner.

Because he's of the Order.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Tyndmyr » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:24 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
Spoiler:
And then she basically gave him a tour of their stuff? I mean, secrecy seemed to be a hit and miss thing. Sometimes they cared, sometimes they didn't.


Spoiler:
Not Wakanda secret from Ross.

Keep Ross a secret from Wakanda.

Outside the Royals, until the shit hit the fan - who did he interact with?

Regarding Forest's character whose name I've forgotten and am too lazy to google - y'all never hear of a High Priest? Dude was totally a High Priest. "High priest of what", hypothetical you asks, "Doesn't there have to be a religion to be a " and I'm gonna need you to shut up right there.

High Priest of the Heart Shaped Herb, basically. Cult of Gardening. Whatever you want to call it, dude's not really loyal to the Royal Family, dude's not even that loyal to the Throne - dude's loyal to the Plant. That's his religion, his calling, his reason. The plant serves the King, so he serves the King, because otherwise the plant has no point.

Dude's the fightmaster... because the fight determines who gets the plant.

High Fucking Priest.

"But what about his spy days" you continue to ask, like an idiot.

Y'all never hear of missionary work? More or less the same idea. Before the High Priest is the High Priest, he's just a member of the order. So he does what his High Priest tells him. And if that task is to keep an eye on the King's Brother and make sure he doesn't do something too stupid (like reveal Wakanda [like reveal the Plant] ) then he's there to solve the problem.

Dude's not a spy. He's an executioner.

Because he's of the Order.


Spoiler:
Eh, the discussion centers around keeping Wakanda secret from outsiders. T'Challa does not generally seem to fear his people, and deals with them fairly honestly. At this point in the movie, he does not seem to have any fears regarding the loyalty of his people. He does shortly thereafter, but not at this point.

Bast, they use his name several times, he's their god. This was actually a pretty decent touch, in that it's subtle continuity from the comics, without the in your face "hey, nerds, remember that comic thing" that some films have done. *stares at DC hard*

But I digress. He's only one of a number of gardeners. The plants apparently take a lot of care, given all the folks shown working on them. But, eh, it's a magical plant. Dunno if I have any context for what's reasonable for that.

Anyways, he's not referred to as a high priest, though it'd kinda make sense. Most of his scenes are in a religious context. The spy one definitely is not. The spies are war-dogs, and they're not under the priests, they're explicitly under the military dude who doesn't like Tchalla suddenly after the Korean scene. So, at least those two roles were pretty distinct. Granted, someone having formerly not been religious and being religious now is possible, but if memory serves, while Zuri handled the drink within the context of the fights, he doesn't within the context of the restoration ritual. There's a continuity glitch for the first restoration ritual, and the focus is on T'challa, so I can't be certain who's in charge of the plant, and the second one for BP is an ad-hoc one done by Ramonda, so I'm not sure if it's representative of the usual tradition. Zuri also does not administer the plant to Killmonger, of course. Again, not really a usual situation, so it doesn't entirely disprove it. But the film doesn't seem to support Zuri having his life focused around the plant. The gardening thing really just seemed like a convenient way to have BP find him alone at night for the dramatic reveal.

Zuri isn't the one confronting Killmonger over the plant burning, for instance. In general, it does not seem important to portray him as high priest, or delve into the religious aspects of Wakanda. They're just portraying Killmonger as giving zero fucks about tradition(also shown by snapping the spear, refusing to worry about the duel after BP's return, using violence to stop anyone who objects, etc). Which seems like it'd cause a bigger problem with the people who resent him, but are literally only backing him because of tradition, but ehhh, the council basically stops mattering after Killmonger appears. The tribes don't show up on the battlefield or anything.

Oh and Zuri IS kind of loyal to the king. He breaks tradition and dies to do so. Your interpretation of this is odd. If it helps, in the comics, he's more of a teacher/mentor. Think of him as a mentor, and things like the loyalty, and of course, getting offed, make a lot of sense. It's just the wide variety of roles that sticks out.

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Re: Black Panther

Postby natraj » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:15 pm UTC

Spoiler:
regarding how many hats zuri wears, i just assumed he stopped being a spy/ gave up active war dog duties after his mission in oakland? that seemed like a really traumatizing ordeal that might lead a person to a contemplative gardeny life. were there any suggestions after oakland/n'jobu's death/zuri returning to wakanda with t'chaka that he was still doing active spy things subsequently?
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Re: Black Panther

Postby SecondTalon » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:41 pm UTC

Spoiler:
The Pope is a High Priest, but no one would call him that.

That Zuri is not explicitly named High Priest does not stop him from holding the role. There’s pretty clearly religious overtones to everything he does, and he seems to run the show.

Part of running the show is delegation of things, like delegating who mixes the juice and who administers it in practical settings (ie the private ceremony where the King becomes the Panther) and also leads the major ceremonies (like the fight to determine who gets to be kind - and tradition would dictate who administers the Panther-B-Gone drug there too. In this case, the High Priest does it)

Now, you are right in that we don’t know if he joined the order later in life or if he was always in it. I don’t recall if he was ever named a “war dog” so his career is a little blank, but it’s also largely irrelevant.

He was there to watch over the King’s brother, and he was there to watch over the coronation proceedings.

That he may have once been a spy does not invalidate his current role of High Priest

Re:Ross and Secrets

Ok, so if the entire nation of Wakanda is all about keeping a low profile, there are likely laws and/or traditions on how to deal with outsiders - people who stumbled on to their lands and uncovered secrets, people brought in, and so on.

Whether or not the King is free to ignore law and tradition doesn’t matter - either the king is not and hauling Ross in breaks them, or the king is free to ignore them in which case it’s still a flagrant ignoring of tradition which wouldn’t exactly earn goodwill.

Bringing Ross in and healing him introduces hosts of problems, both internally and externally. Externally due to his injuries being healed, his back possibly containing vibranium, anything he might say about Wakanda, and internal problems in that the King is allowing someone with knowledge that Wakanda is hiding enormous wealth and tech to the walk free in the outside world.

That the King rendered the problems null doesn’t exactly matter for the reactions at the time.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Tyndmyr » Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:15 am UTC

natraj wrote:
Spoiler:
regarding how many hats zuri wears, i just assumed he stopped being a spy/ gave up active war dog duties after his mission in oakland? that seemed like a really traumatizing ordeal that might lead a person to a contemplative gardeny life. were there any suggestions after oakland/n'jobu's death/zuri returning to wakanda with t'chaka that he was still doing active spy things subsequently?


Spoiler:
It's not addressed either way. A career change in that time frame is plausible, certainly. And if it'd been to JUST gardener, there'd really be no issue. As you say, a young chap deciding this was way deeper than he'd ever wanting to be, and picking a quiet career further from front and center would be quite reasonable.

It's just the sheer volume of convenience relationships that end up being eyebrow raising. You could have all the same roles being filled exactly the same way, but with more actors, and it wouldn't feel overly convenient. Toss in a few flunkies, maybe some extras with the distinctive markings of the various tribes taking part in the final battle, and maybe other plot as appropriate, and the kingdom feels larger and more varied. Compare the korean sets to the Wakandan sets, and the Korean sets appear vastly more alive and real, despite there not being all that many of them.

Another example of a MCU film that kind of does this is Iron Man 3. (spoilers ahead for that if you've not seen it yet, but as it's been out quite some time, I'm not overly worried). Why does the Mandarin target Happy in the first place? Dunno, convenience. Sure is lucky that Pepper Potts just happens to have more control over Extremis than literally anyone else they've witnessed so far. Why does Killian both feel it necessary to give Potts Extremis to save her, but also has no issue with missile-barraging the house she's in prior to that? Is she important to his plan? If not, it's...just more convenience that he HAD to randomly pick a test subject that is closely connected with Stark.

For that, and other reasons, IM 3 was probably the weakest of the Iron Man films. Doesn't mean a film's entirely irredeemable, just...sometimes you can't help but notice just how much luck is involved to have all these things happen to the same few people.


SecondTalon wrote:
Spoiler:
The Pope is a High Priest, but no one would call him that.

That Zuri is not explicitly named High Priest does not stop him from holding the role. There’s pretty clearly religious overtones to everything he does, and he seems to run the show.

Part of running the show is delegation of things, like delegating who mixes the juice and who administers it in practical settings (ie the private ceremony where the King becomes the Panther) and also leads the major ceremonies (like the fight to determine who gets to be kind - and tradition would dictate who administers the Panther-B-Gone drug there too. In this case, the High Priest does it)

Now, you are right in that we don’t know if he joined the order later in life or if he was always in it. I don’t recall if he was ever named a “war dog” so his career is a little blank, but it’s also largely irrelevant.

He was there to watch over the King’s brother, and he was there to watch over the coronation proceedings.

That he may have once been a spy does not invalidate his current role of High Priest

Re:Ross and Secrets

Ok, so if the entire nation of Wakanda is all about keeping a low profile, there are likely laws and/or traditions on how to deal with outsiders - people who stumbled on to their lands and uncovered secrets, people brought in, and so on.

Whether or not the King is free to ignore law and tradition doesn’t matter - either the king is not and hauling Ross in breaks them, or the king is free to ignore them in which case it’s still a flagrant ignoring of tradition which wouldn’t exactly earn goodwill.

Bringing Ross in and healing him introduces hosts of problems, both internally and externally. Externally due to his injuries being healed, his back possibly containing vibranium, anything he might say about Wakanda, and internal problems in that the King is allowing someone with knowledge that Wakanda is hiding enormous wealth and tech to the walk free in the outside world.

That the King rendered the problems null doesn’t exactly matter for the reactions at the time.



Spoiler:
Ultimately, though, the whole high priest thing is just speculative subjectiveness on your part.

Of the three times on screen that the juice is administered, at least two are definitively not him.

The war dog thing is explicitly called out in film. High priest(or similar roles) are not.

Again, sure, there might be some laws about bringing in outsiders which...even the king is subject to, somehow...though he can unilaterally decide to expose the secret to the world, which happens in the MCU...twice...and it's literally the second time they brought an outsider in for this exact purpose...but literally nothing about this is said in the film itself, and its inconsistent with things we do see on screen.

Ultimately, if the only way you can fix something is with a bunch of unsupported headcanon, then yeah, the film still has a problem. Because whatever you're imagining, sure, maybe it could have neatly explained it, if it was in there...but it certainly isn't.

Also, characters acting as if nobody knew black panther's claws were vibranium is odd. They have literally seen black panther in action, and he gouged Cap's shield. The claw marks are quite distinctive. Which was then explicitly taken back into the custody of the US government. So I'm not sure why that was even something that was questioned when talking to Klaue. It should have surprised absolutely nobody talking to him, and should not have resulted in Ross suddenly doubting BP. It's not new information for him.

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Re: Black Panther

Postby rmsgrey » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:10 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
SecondTalon wrote:
Spoiler:
The Pope is a High Priest, but no one would call him that.

That Zuri is not explicitly named High Priest does not stop him from holding the role. There’s pretty clearly religious overtones to everything he does, and he seems to run the show.

Part of running the show is delegation of things, like delegating who mixes the juice and who administers it in practical settings (ie the private ceremony where the King becomes the Panther) and also leads the major ceremonies (like the fight to determine who gets to be kind - and tradition would dictate who administers the Panther-B-Gone drug there too. In this case, the High Priest does it)

Now, you are right in that we don’t know if he joined the order later in life or if he was always in it. I don’t recall if he was ever named a “war dog” so his career is a little blank, but it’s also largely irrelevant.

He was there to watch over the King’s brother, and he was there to watch over the coronation proceedings.

That he may have once been a spy does not invalidate his current role of High Priest

Re:Ross and Secrets

Ok, so if the entire nation of Wakanda is all about keeping a low profile, there are likely laws and/or traditions on how to deal with outsiders - people who stumbled on to their lands and uncovered secrets, people brought in, and so on.

Whether or not the King is free to ignore law and tradition doesn’t matter - either the king is not and hauling Ross in breaks them, or the king is free to ignore them in which case it’s still a flagrant ignoring of tradition which wouldn’t exactly earn goodwill.

Bringing Ross in and healing him introduces hosts of problems, both internally and externally. Externally due to his injuries being healed, his back possibly containing vibranium, anything he might say about Wakanda, and internal problems in that the King is allowing someone with knowledge that Wakanda is hiding enormous wealth and tech to the walk free in the outside world.

That the King rendered the problems null doesn’t exactly matter for the reactions at the time.



Spoiler:
Ultimately, though, the whole high priest thing is just speculative subjectiveness on your part.

Of the three times on screen that the juice is administered, at least two are definitively not him.

The war dog thing is explicitly called out in film. High priest(or similar roles) are not.

Again, sure, there might be some laws about bringing in outsiders which...even the king is subject to, somehow...though he can unilaterally decide to expose the secret to the world, which happens in the MCU...twice...and it's literally the second time they brought an outsider in for this exact purpose...but literally nothing about this is said in the film itself, and its inconsistent with things we do see on screen.

Ultimately, if the only way you can fix something is with a bunch of unsupported headcanon, then yeah, the film still has a problem. Because whatever you're imagining, sure, maybe it could have neatly explained it, if it was in there...but it certainly isn't.

Also, characters acting as if nobody knew black panther's claws were vibranium is odd. They have literally seen black panther in action, and he gouged Cap's shield. The claw marks are quite distinctive. Which was then explicitly taken back into the custody of the US government. So I'm not sure why that was even something that was questioned when talking to Klaue. It should have surprised absolutely nobody talking to him, and should not have resulted in Ross suddenly doubting BP. It's not new information for him.


Spoiler:
Zuri:

It's pretty clear that Zuri has a spiritual role in the kingdom, and that he's on the equivalent of the privy council - whether there's an organised priesthood of which he's the leader/spokesperson, or he's just the spiritual advisor to the throne, his contemporary role is of spiritual leader, rather than as war dog.

If you have trouble with the idea of someone changing career from warrior to priest, I recommend avoiding the Brother Cadfael series - the eponymous central character is a former soldier who found a calling to become a 12 century monk - where his worldly experience makes him a poor fit for the traditions and hierarchy of the monastery, but gives him a niche as apothecary, herbalist, and sleuth (among other things). They are worth a look if that isn't going to bother you.

Anyway, I have no problem with the idea that someone who was a warrior a couple of decades ago needn't be a warrior in the present.

Secrecy/Ross:

My reading is that T'Challa was torn between his own judgement that Wakanda needed to be part of the wider world, and his respect for his father's judgement and the traditional judgement of generations of kings before them that Wakanda needs to stay hidden from the world. His sympathies are firmly with the people who see the evils of the outside world and want to do something to help, but they're free to agitate and campaign where he's responsible for the kingdom (and, if he chooses, to an extent, the world). He feels obliged to uphold the conservative position whatever his personal feelings, but he goes against their spirit - granting sanctuary and rehabilitative support to Bucky Barnes (which implies also offering shelter and support to Steve Rogers and his allies) and, while he sticks to the party line with Everett Ross so long as there's nothing more than their friendship (or working relationship) at stake, once his friend's life (or at least quality of life) is at stake, it only takes him a moment to decide to do what I believe he wanted to do all along - bring Ross all the way inside and stop treating him as an outsider.

And then the whole thing with Killmonger gave T'Challa a reason to stop letting his father's judgement override his own, leading to the new situation at the end of the movie.

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Re: Black Panther

Postby Tyndmyr » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:08 am UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
SecondTalon wrote:
Spoiler:
The Pope is a High Priest, but no one would call him that.

That Zuri is not explicitly named High Priest does not stop him from holding the role. There’s pretty clearly religious overtones to everything he does, and he seems to run the show.

Part of running the show is delegation of things, like delegating who mixes the juice and who administers it in practical settings (ie the private ceremony where the King becomes the Panther) and also leads the major ceremonies (like the fight to determine who gets to be kind - and tradition would dictate who administers the Panther-B-Gone drug there too. In this case, the High Priest does it)

Now, you are right in that we don’t know if he joined the order later in life or if he was always in it. I don’t recall if he was ever named a “war dog” so his career is a little blank, but it’s also largely irrelevant.

He was there to watch over the King’s brother, and he was there to watch over the coronation proceedings.

That he may have once been a spy does not invalidate his current role of High Priest

Re:Ross and Secrets

Ok, so if the entire nation of Wakanda is all about keeping a low profile, there are likely laws and/or traditions on how to deal with outsiders - people who stumbled on to their lands and uncovered secrets, people brought in, and so on.

Whether or not the King is free to ignore law and tradition doesn’t matter - either the king is not and hauling Ross in breaks them, or the king is free to ignore them in which case it’s still a flagrant ignoring of tradition which wouldn’t exactly earn goodwill.

Bringing Ross in and healing him introduces hosts of problems, both internally and externally. Externally due to his injuries being healed, his back possibly containing vibranium, anything he might say about Wakanda, and internal problems in that the King is allowing someone with knowledge that Wakanda is hiding enormous wealth and tech to the walk free in the outside world.

That the King rendered the problems null doesn’t exactly matter for the reactions at the time.



Spoiler:
Ultimately, though, the whole high priest thing is just speculative subjectiveness on your part.

Of the three times on screen that the juice is administered, at least two are definitively not him.

The war dog thing is explicitly called out in film. High priest(or similar roles) are not.

Again, sure, there might be some laws about bringing in outsiders which...even the king is subject to, somehow...though he can unilaterally decide to expose the secret to the world, which happens in the MCU...twice...and it's literally the second time they brought an outsider in for this exact purpose...but literally nothing about this is said in the film itself, and its inconsistent with things we do see on screen.

Ultimately, if the only way you can fix something is with a bunch of unsupported headcanon, then yeah, the film still has a problem. Because whatever you're imagining, sure, maybe it could have neatly explained it, if it was in there...but it certainly isn't.

Also, characters acting as if nobody knew black panther's claws were vibranium is odd. They have literally seen black panther in action, and he gouged Cap's shield. The claw marks are quite distinctive. Which was then explicitly taken back into the custody of the US government. So I'm not sure why that was even something that was questioned when talking to Klaue. It should have surprised absolutely nobody talking to him, and should not have resulted in Ross suddenly doubting BP. It's not new information for him.


Spoiler:
Zuri:

It's pretty clear that Zuri has a spiritual role in the kingdom, and that he's on the equivalent of the privy council - whether there's an organised priesthood of which he's the leader/spokesperson, or he's just the spiritual advisor to the throne, his contemporary role is of spiritual leader, rather than as war dog.

If you have trouble with the idea of someone changing career from warrior to priest, I recommend avoiding the Brother Cadfael series - the eponymous central character is a former soldier who found a calling to become a 12 century monk - where his worldly experience makes him a poor fit for the traditions and hierarchy of the monastery, but gives him a niche as apothecary, herbalist, and sleuth (among other things). They are worth a look if that isn't going to bother you.

Anyway, I have no problem with the idea that someone who was a warrior a couple of decades ago needn't be a warrior in the present.

Secrecy/Ross:

My reading is that T'Challa was torn between his own judgement that Wakanda needed to be part of the wider world, and his respect for his father's judgement and the traditional judgement of generations of kings before them that Wakanda needs to stay hidden from the world. His sympathies are firmly with the people who see the evils of the outside world and want to do something to help, but they're free to agitate and campaign where he's responsible for the kingdom (and, if he chooses, to an extent, the world). He feels obliged to uphold the conservative position whatever his personal feelings, but he goes against their spirit - granting sanctuary and rehabilitative support to Bucky Barnes (which implies also offering shelter and support to Steve Rogers and his allies) and, while he sticks to the party line with Everett Ross so long as there's nothing more than their friendship (or working relationship) at stake, once his friend's life (or at least quality of life) is at stake, it only takes him a moment to decide to do what I believe he wanted to do all along - bring Ross all the way inside and stop treating him as an outsider.

And then the whole thing with Killmonger gave T'Challa a reason to stop letting his father's judgement override his own, leading to the new situation at the end of the movie.



Spoiler:
Pretty sure I've said a few times now that one job change isn't the problem.

The point is that we see pretty much nobody in the kingdom, and it feels small for it. The roles that exist are wrapped around a very small group of people, who do not really feel connected to anyone else. For most of the world...that makes sense. They're isolationist. But they ought to be tied into their kingdom.

Also, the situation at the end of BP is not entirely new, nor against what his dad wanted...at least not in Civil War.

"We will not however, let misfortune drive us back. We will fight to improve the world we wish to join."
―T'Chaka

T'Chaka's motivations flip about 180 for BP, and it's frigging strange. However, nothing about BP's current motives disagree with Dad's position as shown in Civil War.

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Re: Black Panther

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:39 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Yeah like I said before, she is apparently canonically the smartest person in the MCU, which means she's smarter than Tony Stark, and is working with a team of people instead of alone in a cave, and is in the most advanced lab in the world instead of...alone in a cave.
On one hand I'm absolutely fine with a teenage girl in Wakanda being able to out-engineer Tony Stark. Given Wakanda's aesthetic and themes of futurism, it makes sense: A society with advanced technology is gonna end up with advanced engineers. Her middle school math textbooks would probably blow Tony's mind. There is something fundamentally fun about that idea.

But this construction ("canonically smartest person in the MCU") always struck me as so weird and off-putting. I know it's not your words -- and I know that it's more a problem with the nature of comics (in comics, it's usually Reed Richards, Victor von Doom, or Amadeus Cho described as "canonically smartest") than the MCU, or this movie in particular. Just... Intelligence doesn't work that way? There is no person who is the single smartest person in the world. And I'm resistant to any narrative that implies there is.

I guess magic metallurgy and suits of flying armor are things I'm okay with, but the idea that intelligence can be so easily compared and graded isn't. I'm fine with nebulous super genius as a power, but I get leery when the writers start talking about how that super-genius falls into neat little hierarchies. That way of thinking has certain consequences -- nasty ones.

(As an aside, I know this isn't an important feature of the movie, and this complaint isn't directed at the movie itself; it's more a generalized complaint toward the terror that keeps occurring in comic books and media that relates to them)
Last edited by The Great Hippo on Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:43 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Black Panther

Postby Zohar » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:43 pm UTC

Unfortunately that's a pretty common trope in comic books. There's no piece of technology that just works out of the box with no testing, either, but that's a recurring theme in pretty much everything.

And fans of media love to compare and contrast things - there's a rating for how powerful mutants are, too, despite the fact a low-level mutant could use their powers very effectively and overpower a powerful one. Dragon Ball has strength measurements that mean absolutely nothing. People in the real world use IQ all the time (including the pile of mindless poop at the white house).
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Re: Black Panther

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:53 pm UTC

Yeah, and maybe in a sense it's unfair of me to expect comics or movies to be much different -- just, to me, there's a certain lack of responsibility inherent in selling the idea that intelligence can be so easily measured and compared.

Like, to me, the whole point of a character like Tony Stark or Shuri isn't that they have magical powers that make them special -- it's that they accomplish amazing things by merit of study and determination. "You can do amazing things when you're determined to accomplish them" is a much more interesting message to me than "You can do amazing things if you just happen to be the smartest person in the world".

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Re: Black Panther

Postby rmsgrey » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:34 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:I guess magic metallurgy and suits of flying armor are things I'm okay with, but the idea that intelligence can be so easily compared and graded isn't. I'm fine with nebulous super genius as a power, but I get leery when the writers start talking about how that super-genius falls into neat little hierarchies. That way of thinking has certain consequences -- nasty ones.


Yeah, while it's true that there are almost certainly pairs of people in the world such that person A is smarter than person B across the board, for most pairs of people, there are areas where A is smarter than B and vice versa.

The idea that one of, say, Stephen Hawking (RIP) and Lisa Kudrow is more intelligent than the other is a fallacy (or, at best, rests on a specific definition of intelligence and fails when applied more generally) - Hawking was unquestionably a genius, but he focused his attention in academia; Kudrow left academia for an acting career, but who knows what she would have achieved if she'd stayed focused on her research instead? And she probably knows more about neuroscience than Hawking did.

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Re: Black Panther

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:06 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Unfortunately that's a pretty common trope in comic books. There's no piece of technology that just works out of the box with no testing, either, but that's a recurring theme in pretty much everything.

And fans of media love to compare and contrast things - there's a rating for how powerful mutants are, too, despite the fact a low-level mutant could use their powers very effectively and overpower a powerful one. Dragon Ball has strength measurements that mean absolutely nothing. People in the real world use IQ all the time (including the pile of mindless poop at the white house).


Yeah. Those are sadly just a "comics, everybody" thing. Different stat bars and what not(often wildly inconsistent, for added frustration!), but in reality, who wins in a fight mostly depends on which hero's name is on the cover.

I generally tacitly ignore over-simplifications of intelligence so long as they avoid nonsense like "using 100% of your brain!" Hate that one so much. Everyone's got a bar for what they're willing to suspend disbelief over, and movies/comics/etc have traditionally leaned pretty hard on this in some areas. 'scool if not everyone has exactly the same bar, but we can't really fault the movie too much for such a common thing. That said, I'm super excited when a movie breaks with traditional lazy tropes. No matter how you feel about Civil War, for instance, they put a lot more effort into setting up the two sides than most comics usually have when they need two heroes to punch it out.

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Re: Black Panther

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:30 pm UTC

At least Steve and Tony's moms didn't have the same name.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby rmsgrey » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:34 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:At least Steve and Tony's moms didn't have the same name.

No, that's their sidekicks, James and James...

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Re: Black Panther

Postby Kewangji » Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:23 am UTC

Finally saw this movie! I loved it. The dialogue was wonderful, and the villain felt like a real villain. The first fight scene was confusing, but then the camerawork picked up. Probably my favourite Marvel film so far (though I haven't seen the last... five? six? due to lack of caring).
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Re: Black Panther

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:39 am UTC

Last six in order

Ant Man : My Plot Makes No Sense
Captain America:Civil War:Avengers2.5
Doctor Strange:Belfast Cambridge and the Amazing Nausea Inducing 3D Adventure That Was Fucking Beautiful But My God The Plot Was Boring
Guardians of the Galaxy 2:Is the Mary Poppins Thing Played Out Yet?
Spider-Man:Homecoming:Holy Shit An Actual Teenage Spider-Man And Also Tony Doing A 180 on His Civil War Responsibilty Thing!
Thor:Ragnarok:What if Guardians, but instead of Starlord and crew, Thor, Loki, Hulk, New Chick, Rock Guy, and Jeff Goldblum because fuck yeah

...

Then Black Panther.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:49 am UTC

They're generally worth seeing if you enjoy superhero movies. Any of that list unambiguously beats any DC film save for Wonder Woman, which is somewhere in the middle of that pack. Thor Ragnarok is particularly glorious, imo. Managed to capture that 80s space adventure aesthetic wonderfully.

Ant Man is a silly heist movie. It's good fun with that in mind, but if you miss it, you shouldn't have trouble keeping up with any avengers films.
Civil War really is basically an avengers film. Ought to watch it to understand more of what's going on in Avengers. It's quite good, IMO. Welcome to the internet arguments over which side was right. They'll never end, and are utterly pointless. Also, Steve was right.
Doctor Strange is pretty close to his animated/comic origin story, just with a level of quality, and borrowing heavily from Inception. Also a film that's great to watch, but that you can miss without being at all behind on the big films.
GotG2: Fantastic film. If you enjoyed the first, it's basically a lot more of that. Probably not super essential to understanding the overall arc of the MCU, but as the Guardians seem important to the Thanos fight...maybe?
Spider-Man: Middlin' in quality. Spidey casting is indeed good, and has an amazingly good villain. Also largely unimportant to the larger MCU.

It's nice that you don't really need to watch everything to figure out what's going on. Hell, Black Panther is probably not super critical to the larger MCU either. Mostly as long as you keep up with the previous avengers and the oddball film like Civil War, gonna know most of it.

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Re: Black Panther

Postby Zohar » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:38 pm UTC

Spider-Man was middling? I thought it was the best Marvel movie of last year, and possibly of recent years as well. Fresh, interesting, different, doesn't need to save the entire world from destruction, had a fantastic, actually menacing and memorable villain.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:02 pm UTC

And the villain was a guy who flew, like a sort of bird-man!
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Zohar » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:07 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:And the villain was a guy who flew, like a sort of bird-man!

Or a bat person!
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Re: Black Panther

Postby rmsgrey » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:05 pm UTC

My shortlist of most important films to have seen before Infinity War:

- Captain America Civil War: establishes the current situation with the Avengers, introduces Black Panther and Spiderman, and establishes most of what's going on on Earth. May want to watch Avengers 1 and 2 first, and the non-Hulk Phase 1 movies before them.
- Thor Ragnarok: ends with a cliff-hanger that will probably lead directly into Infinity War, and significantly changes the status quo for Thor, Loki, and associated characters. Also introduces Doctor Strange if you don't watch his movie.
- Guardians of the Galaxy: gives us more of Thanos than any other movie so far, and provides the backstory for the Infinity Stones. Also introduces the characters. May want to watch Vol. 2 afterwards to get updated as there are some long-term changes in that movie too.
- Possibly Black Panther: the trailers suggest that Wakanda is going to be an important location in Infinity War, so getting up to speed on the place is probably useful. Also, getting to know some of the supporting characters may be handy.

Of course, if you want to know all the background going into Infinity War, you'll want to have seen all the MCU movies (except possibly Incredible Hulk).

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Re: Black Panther

Postby Chen » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:32 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:Of course, if you want to know all the background going into Infinity War, you'll want to have seen all the MCU movies (except possibly Incredible Hulk).


Ant-Man is not terribly important continuity wise (but a good movie). Iron Man 3 is also not too pertinent in terms of the Infinity War.

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Re: Black Panther

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:39 pm UTC

Iron Man 3 seems to have been completely forgotten by the subsequent MCU continuity. Wasn't there some trailer showing Tony still having an ARC reactor in his chest? And why have we not seen or heard anything about Extremis since? (Except in early Agents of SHIELD episodes). Surely that would be relevant to any fight Iron Man got into after the fact.
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Re: Black Panther

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:59 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Spider-Man was middling? I thought it was the best Marvel movie of last year, and possibly of recent years as well. Fresh, interesting, different, doesn't need to save the entire world from destruction, had a fantastic, actually menacing and memorable villain.


Lacking in character growth, I think. It's not bad, mind you, and the villain is straight up great. But spidey is a little too...Iron Man Jr, kind of. Don't want to delve into it too much in an unrelated topic with folks who might not have watched it, but the film suffers a bit from the odd focus at times. It almost feels like someone got a little too into AoS, and tried to include some of that in the film, for instance...and AoS is generally of a lower tier of quality than the MCU films are.

Pfhorrest wrote:Iron Man 3 seems to have been completely forgotten by the subsequent MCU continuity. Wasn't there some trailer showing Tony still having an ARC reactor in his chest? And why have we not seen or heard anything about Extremis since? (Except in early Agents of SHIELD episodes). Surely that would be relevant to any fight Iron Man got into after the fact.


Yeah. IM 3 was not exceptionally well liked, and pretty much all of the changes from there have been ignored save for those AoS episodes you mention. Ultimately, you can skip that movie entirely, and not miss anything relevant to the greater Avengers universe.


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