Gotham

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roband
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Gotham

Postby roband » Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:21 pm UTC

"As originally conceived, the series would have served as a straightforward story of Gordon's early days on the Gotham City police force. The idea evolved not only to include the Bruce Wayne character, but will also tell the origin stories of several Batman villains, including Penguin, Riddler, Catwoman, Joker, Poison Ivy, Scarecrow, Hugo Strange, Harvey Dent and Mr. Freeze. The first season order consists of sixteen episodes."

1.5 episodes in, I really like it.
The kid from the OC can act.
I'm no huge Batman fan, but the tiny references to these well-known villains is really good. So far, anyway. I could see it getting a bit tiresome if they don't develop them.

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Re: Gotham

Postby You, sir, name? » Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:37 pm UTC

It's promising.

My main complaint is that the sheer number of future Batman villains they squeeze into the story grates at the immersion a bit. The Riddler feels especially out-of-place.
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Re: Gotham

Postby roband » Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:12 pm UTC

They might never use him. It's a bit "cute" to have him there though.

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Re: Gotham

Postby Isaac Hill » Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:55 am UTC

I liked the first two episodes, especially Donal Logue as Harvey Bullock. The cameos are OK, but I wish they didn't hit us over the head with who they'll be so hard. If you have a really smart guy who answers every question with another question, we don't need another character to say, "Hey Nygma, enough with the riddles". If they let a character have a few scenes before revealing their future identity, it would have a greater impact since the reveal would alter the impression we'd already formed. Granted, they could be doing this with some characters and I just haven't figured them out yet.

I've read some concerns that since this is a prequel, there's not much suspense since we generally know how things will turn out. Gordon will not succeed in cleaning up Gotham, since if he does, there's no need for Batman. But, I think they might be going somewhere interesting with this. Spoilers for pilot:
Spoiler:
Falcone tells Gordon that he likes law and order, since chaos is bad for business. The Penguin talks about the change he's anticipating (granted he's begging for his life at the time). It could be that the alliance between organized crime and the corrupt cops is all that's keeping Gotham from completely falling apart. Gordon could do enough damage to this alliance to allow the real crazies to take over, which is what creates the need for Batman.
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Re: Gotham

Postby rmsgrey » Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:47 pm UTC

Isaac Hill wrote:But, I think they might be going somewhere interesting with this.


That would be an interesting twist. One of the questions comic book (and comic booky) universes struggle with is what happens in all the places without a friendly neighbourhood superhero? Or before the superhero starts helping out the police? The standard answers seem to be either that superheroes trigger the emergence of supervillains, or that the villains' and the hero's presence both stem from a common cause - so a bunch of Superman villains (nowadays) exist as a result of Luthor's research into ways to defeat Superman, while others originate from Krypton, and there are probably some which derive their powers from exposure to Kryptonite (though that may still just be a Smallville thing). The idea of villains creating the hero is much less explored - at least partly because exploring the idea properly would mean spending a lot of pages without the superhero around.

Since Gotham is committed to spending years without a Batman, it does have the chance to explore what the world would be like without superheros, without having to answer questions like "how do you stop Galactus without the Fantastic Four?"

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Re: Gotham

Postby UniqueScreenname » Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:40 pm UTC

I think I figured out what I'm not liking about it. There's no Batman.

Don't get me wrong. I knew there was no Batman when I started watching it. But I realized that Batman happened because the city was such a wreck. That means the city is still a wreck when Bruce Wayne decides to become Batman. And I think Bruce is 10 right now? So that gives us a good 15 years before he shows up, making this series seem like an exercise in futility. Nothing is really going to change. Nothing is really going to be accomplished. And while I understand the villains in the Batman universe are reason enough for many people to sustain the franchise, they don't much interest me enough on their own. I don't know if I want to invest my time in a show that doesn't have room to grow.
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Re: Gotham

Postby Isaac Hill » Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:00 am UTC

Fox has ordered 6 more episodes (link). I don't know when they're going to air, but the article says it's an extension of the first season, so I guess that means soon after the first 16.

I can see the point about Gotham being a wreck now, and being a wreck when Batman shows up, meaning the show is just spinning its wheels. But, it's currently a somewhat realistic wreck, with a city run by mob bosses and corrupt government officials. This could be the tale of how Gotham becomes a more fantasical type of wreck, run by supervillians.

Besides, nothing being accomplished has to be expected for a 75 year old comic franchise. How many times has Batman beat up the Joker, thrown him in Arkham Asylum, only for him to break out again?

Spoiler for villian cameos, eps 1-4:
Spoiler:
I've read that the creators plan to have multiple people who could be the future Joker as a nod to his multiple choice past in the comics and Nolan film. The pilot had the auditoning stand-up. I think Balloonman had white face paint as part of his disguise. Has anyone noticed any others?
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Re: Gotham

Postby Rodion Raskolnikov » Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:03 pm UTC

I've enjoyed the first couple of episodes, but Jada Pinkett Smith's awfulness is threatening to ruin the whole thing. Also not too sure about Cock-er-ney Alfred. The penguin's story is promising though.

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Re: Gotham

Postby Isaac Hill » Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:39 am UTC

Episode 5 (Viper) seems like it was made for people who hadn't seen the series up to now. Between the "Previously On..." and the summary one character provides of his relationship to another, you could probably watch this epsiode without seeing 1 through 4, and have a pretty good idea of what was going on.
Spoiler:
I think the show's been gradually getting better, with Viper being the best so far. The villian of the week was a good stand-alone plot, while adding to the who-killed-the-Waynes story. We got more backstory on the gang conflict, and Fish Mooney actually started going after Falcone like she's talked about since the pilot. The shout-out (Viper being the predecessor to Venom, which is what Bane uses) was subtle and integrated into the story, not a distraction. And we got Harvey Bullock demanding, "WHAT'S ALTRUISM?"
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Re: Gotham

Postby Djehutynakht » Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:39 am UTC

Spoiler:
Personally, I've actually been enjoying the subplot of young Bruce Wayne realizing that there's a mess and trying to figure it out with detective-work, as opposed to later on when he'll put on a costume and beat up bad guys.

Sadly, his big mistake was being so open about it at the reception. Nobody is expecting him right now, so his anonymity is valuable.


New episode:

Spoiler:
Caught Nygma in a riddle mistake.
When he's talking about the Goat, Wolf, Cabbage riddle, he mentions taking two of them in the boat at the same time, which isn't how the riddle goes, or else you'd simply make two trips (wolf, cabbage, and then goat alone) and be done.

Anyways... this was definitely interesting.

Funny how the Goat's mask looked a bit like the Batman mask. I wonder if it's intentional. Then again, he never faced Bruce.

Then again, it seems the therapist plot may not be entirely resolved (she seemed to be alive, no? And they're unsure whether him doing that was okay), so maybe there's more?
Going after Bruce would have been interesting, but then again, he has a point. He's no longer the "son" of the house, now that he's the sole person comprising it.

The Penguin seems interesting. He seems he might generally want to be a good person, despite the fact that he's really not showing it. But perhaps he's trying...
His showing up in the station was a bit epic, but is bound to have consequences.

And we see Bullock is actually a bit of a white knight. Very interesting.

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Re: Gotham

Postby You, sir, name? » Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:14 pm UTC

The fight choreography in this show is really sort of bad. Especially Gordon's punches are really not very convincing.

RE: Riddle
Spoiler:
Yeah... Isn't it bring goat, return empty, bring wolf, return with goat, bring cabbage, return empty, bring goat.
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Re: Gotham

Postby Isaac Hill » Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:24 pm UTC

Now the clues that Nygma becomes the Riddler aren't just obnoxiously obvious, they're wrong.

Ep 6
Spoiler:
I agree about enjoying the Bruce Wayne plot. Sure, he was too open about what he was doing at the reception, but that's to be expected. He's spent his whole life as the scion of a family of CEOs. He's probably used to the idea of employees obeying the boss without question. My guess is that being open at the reception comes back to bite him in the ass, which gives him the idea of taking on a secret identity.

I don't get his scene with Selina Kyle, though. That can't have started out as a sincere burglary attempt. We've seen her lurking around the grounds before. You'd think she'd've learned enough to break into a mansion with two residents and not end up within 20 feet of both of them. Maybe she went in intending to talk to Bruce Wayne about what she saw when his parents were killed, got spooked by Alfred being nearby, and stole something since being a thief is in her comfort zone. Or, the actress's contract specifies that she be in every episode, and they pay her by the line.

I think we've seen Bullock step his game up before, when kids were being taken in Ep 2, or when Jim's life is in danger. I get the sense that he's not actually amoral, he's just made his peace with the amount of corruption in Gotham. Something out of the ordinary, like masked serial killers or orphan nabbers, can get him emotionally invested in the case.

Thinking back on it, I don't recall Bullock minding Balloonman until Balloonman killed a cop. At first, I figured it was general police brotherhood stuff, or Bullock wondering if he'd be next. Given what we saw in his flashback, it may have been guilt over what happened to his old partner.

I like the idea that Harvey Bullock's lack of crimefighting comes from guilt. He's like the opposite of Spider-man.

Penguin marching in to Gotham PD and annoucing himself seems like a bad idea, but in character. He's definitely ego-driven. I wonder why he did it; would he know that Gordon's under arrest for his murder?
I'm enjoying everything involving Bruce Wayne, Oswald Cobblebot, or Harvey Bullock. Jim Gordon stuff mostly interests me out of plot advancement, not concern for the character.
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Re: Gotham

Postby rmsgrey » Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:23 am UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:RE: Riddle
Spoiler:
Yeah... Isn't it bring goat, return empty, bring wolf, return with goat, bring cabbage, return empty, bring goat.

There are actually two equally good solutions - there's a wolf-cabbage symmetry.

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Re: Gotham

Postby Djehutynakht » Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:46 pm UTC

Have been people still been watching this? It's been getting really interesting. I've quite enjoyed it.

Fish Mooney's story line is also really beginning to interest me. It's exciting too since, as an original character (yes?) what happens to her isn't cemented in stone quite as solidly as say, Penguin, or Bruce, or Jim Gordon. Anything could happen to her.

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Re: Gotham

Postby Biedroneczka » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:39 pm UTC

Gotham is the tv shows which don't interested me at all, although I love DC universe

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Re: Gotham

Postby mathmannix » Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:21 pm UTC

Djehutynakht wrote:Have been people still been watching this? It's been getting really interesting. I've quite enjoyed it.

Fish Mooney's story line is also really beginning to interest me. It's exciting too since, as an original character (yes?) what happens to her isn't cemented in stone quite as solidly as say, Penguin, or Bruce, or Jim Gordon. Anything could happen to her.

Yes. I keep finding myself rooting for Penguin, hoping he makes it big, and then I realize, yeah, he can't die because canon. (Same with Alfred.) I think Fish is probably going to die, because not canon, but that didn't happen to Chloe Sullivan, who I think became canon? And of course Harley Quinn, not that anybody really died in B:TAS.
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Re: Gotham

Postby Djehutynakht » Sun May 17, 2015 8:32 am UTC

Anyone watch the Season Finale?

That thing was absolutely wild from start to finish.

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Re: Gotham

Postby mathmannix » Mon May 18, 2015 12:19 pm UTC

Yes, it was very good. I love the portrayal of Nygma.
Spoiler:
Also, I was hoping that one or more of the boss characters would be killed off, but it wasn't the one I was expecting.

I was also glad that it didn't seem like I missed too much, having not seen the penultimate episode - I don't know if anyone else saw it, but my DVR got 60 minutes of footage of a CVS in Baltimore.
Spoiler:
So apparently the serial killer shot Barbara's parents in front of her - well, we only met them briefly, and they weren't portrayed as nice people anyway. And she was already quite messed up, anyhow.
It could have been worse; it could have been the finale that was preempted.
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Re: Gotham

Postby Djehutynakht » Fri May 22, 2015 6:55 am UTC

Re your last spoiler (you might wanna wait to actually see the episode first):

Spoiler:
It turns out in the finale Barbara admits to killing her parents herself, and proceeds to try and murder Lee.

This is more screwed up because, if canon is supposedly followed, Gordon does, somehow, end up marrying her.

Can't quite see how at this point.

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Re: Gotham

Postby mathmannix » Wed May 27, 2015 1:22 pm UTC

Djehutynakht wrote:Re your last spoiler (you might wanna wait to actually see the episode first):

Spoiler:
It turns out in the finale Barbara admits to killing her parents herself, and proceeds to try and murder Lee.

This is more screwed up because, if canon is supposedly followed, Gordon does, somehow, end up marrying her.

Can't quite see how at this point.


Yeah, it turned out I had forgotten when I wrote that, that I hadn't seen the last fifteen minutes or so of the episode yet. Whoops! :oops:
I can safely say without spoilering that a few things happened at the end of the episode.
Spoiler:
I'm not really sure I believe Barbara, but either way, she is scary and is that against canon? I haven't read Batman comics, so I don't really know, and from what I can tell there's all kinds of contradictions over a comic's 75-year-history, but... Barbara Gordon was Jim's wife in the Dark Knight trilogy, right? So either this wacko is Batgirl's mom? Or he marries a different Barbara, which seems rather far-fetched? Or Batgirl is his niece, but clearly named after this Barbara? Whatever...

Anyway, I don't think Fish is dead. (Although I was expecting her to die, because she was made up for this show.) Too much of a Disney-villain death for me, plus that's Will Smith's wife, right? I think she's a well-known actress, although I can't recall seeing her in anything else, maybe a Will Smith movie or two.

("Spoilering" certainly seems like it should be a word. "Spoiling" just doesn't convey the same meaning to me...)
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Re: Gotham

Postby Djehutynakht » Sun Oct 11, 2015 6:28 am UTC

Anyone still watching this?

The latest episode was brilliant.

Spoiler:
Still, I feel like they sort of re-used this. They did this same idea with the Red Hood--the idea that it's more of an 'idea' of a villain than an actual person. While I think they did it extremely well with Jerome, I fear them starting to reuse it a bit.

I'm also disappointed because Jerome's character, and the actor who played him, were brilliant and very well done. I'm sad to see him go.

Still kind of hoping for a Fish Mooney resurrection.

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Re: Gotham

Postby Isaac Hill » Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:01 pm UTC

I'm still watching it. I look forward to it, but I can't really say that it's good enough for me to recommend it to others. I liked the arc for the first part of Season 2, up to the episode Djehutynakht called brilliant. But, the next two were a bit off. The dialogue between two characters discussing how similar they are when we've already noticed that was pretty bad.

Plus, the villain origins have to have gotten obscure enough that most people don't get the reference, and the ones who do are the type likely to be upset by any deviations from canon. Last season, it seemed like they referenced a new villain every couple of episodes, then didn't mention them again. It's hard for me to get too interested in new villains, when I don't expect to see them in two weeks.
Spoiler:
So, that Galavan guy had Thomas and Martha Wayne killed, right? Penguin might be in a position to figure that out. I don't remember if he showed much interest in those killings, but he did interact with Gordon alot while Gordon was working that case. Maybe it came up.

Djehutynakht - I hadn't noticed the similarities between the Red Hood and Joker, but you're right. Maybe that's the point, that the city of Gotham induces certain types of insanity in its residents. The most stricken residents then draw inspiration from those stricken in a similar way.
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Re: Gotham

Postby mathmannix » Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:24 pm UTC

Unfortunately, tonight will be the first episode I won't be able to watch, as I'm really looking forward to Supergirl, and for some stupid reason the DC Comics tri-network (multiverse?) is now competing with itself. (I guess I should just be glad that neither of the CW's Flash and Arrow shows is also on the same night!) I'll try to catch it next summer in reruns, maybe. Honestly, if you are a property with a lot of licensable characters, and you actually OWN one of the major TV broadcast networks (or your parent organization co-owns it, anyway), why would you ever let a Batman-esque show be on Fox and a Superman-esque show be on CBS (much less at the same time)? Force them all to be on your network, so you have complete control and things like this don't happen. Oh well...

As I knew this was going to happen for several months now, I've not really gotten back into Gotham this season, which is too bad because what I have seen of it looks cool, and I loved how the first season ended (once I finally got around to watching it!)
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Re: Gotham

Postby Djehutynakht » Wed May 25, 2016 8:22 am UTC

Anyone been keeping up? The last few episodes of this season have been very interesting.


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