Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Rot your brains, then rot our boards

Moderators: SecondTalon, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
Zohar
COMMANDER PORN
Posts: 8287
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:45 pm UTC
Location: Denver

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby Zohar » Sat Aug 06, 2016 1:50 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:Ugh, please no Divergent. That actress and the whole franchise is the film equivalent of scratching a chalkboard.

My point wasn't about the quality of the film, but that there's money to be made by making diverse movies.
Mighty Jalapeno: "See, Zohar agrees, and he's nice to people."
SecondTalon: "Still better looking than Jesus."

Not how I say my name

User avatar
Lucrece
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:01 am UTC

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby Lucrece » Sat Aug 06, 2016 2:16 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Lucrece wrote:Although I'd prefer some other emerging female actress get an opportunity instead of making these female kingpins even richer.
Dude, I have to say, this view is potentially fairly problematic. Jennifer Lawrence is a pretty damned talented actress, and she's only like 26 years old. Don't brush her off as 'part of the hyper-successful Hollywood machine' simply because she's proven herself over the last ~8 years as an actress. That smacks too much of the 'we love them when they're struggling but not when they've made it'.

Weeks wrote:So...should I not go go see this? I don't know that there's good alternatives. Maybe I'll watch The Purge: Remember to Vote Edition.
I think you can firmly wait for this to come out on DVD. Evidently there's a better cut that's truer to the original story.



I don't dislike her because she's made it or popular. I just don't agree with the idea of a few handful actors being handed tens of millions of dollars for a decade or two while the vast majority, many of who DO have the talent but simply haven't had the luck of exposure or networking, operate in utter squalor.

This is an industry where we could afford to reduce the massive pay gaps for work done.
Belial wrote:That's charming, Nancy, but all I hear when you talk is a bunch of yippy dog sounds.

User avatar
charliepanayi
Posts: 1531
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 7:26 pm UTC
Location: London, UK

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby charliepanayi » Sat Aug 06, 2016 3:59 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
Lucrece wrote:Ugh, please no Divergent. That actress and the whole franchise is the film equivalent of scratching a chalkboard.

My point wasn't about the quality of the film, but that there's money to be made by making diverse movies.


Though Divergent has fallen so fast, they won't even give the final instalment a cinema release now.
"Excuse me Miss, do you like pineapple?"

"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work, I want to achieve it through not dying"

maybeagnostic
Posts: 626
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:34 pm UTC

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby maybeagnostic » Sat Aug 06, 2016 4:53 pm UTC

Well, this discussion and several reviews firmly convinced me to skip the movie. I actually got pretty excited there for a while because of the cool trailers but I guess the DC universe continues to have only one good-if-you-go-in-with-low-expectations movie.

headprogrammingczar wrote:A large part of it is that a solo Black Widow movie has the potential to be the best movie in the whole MCU.
I can't really figure out how that would go. A solo Black Widow movie would just be a spy movie with no superheroics, right? Agents of SHIELD actually was pretty close to that and has a pretty diverse and gender-balanced cast to boot, too bad the show is mostly mediocre.

Zohar wrote:As mentioned, Supergirl hasn't been cancelled. And while it was somewhat heavy-handed in the beginning with its brand of feminism (a lot of "tell" and not much "show"), the season ended up better than how it started.
I gave up like five episodes in but personally I would describe that show as an attack ad against feminism. Supergirl was portrayed as incompetent, indecisive and insipid.

Lucrece wrote:This is an industry where we could afford to reduce the massive pay gaps for work done.
Sadly, the pay gaps are probably justified. Having popular actors and franchises increases revenue, that's why movies like Battleship make quite a bit of money.
T: ... through an emergency induction port.
S: That's a straw, Tali.
T: Emerrrgency induction port.

User avatar
Zohar
COMMANDER PORN
Posts: 8287
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:45 pm UTC
Location: Denver

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby Zohar » Sun Aug 07, 2016 11:59 am UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:
Zohar wrote:As mentioned, Supergirl hasn't been cancelled. And while it was somewhat heavy-handed in the beginning with its brand of feminism (a lot of "tell" and not much "show"), the season ended up better than how it started.
I gave up like five episodes in but personally I would describe that show as an attack ad against feminism. Supergirl was portrayed as incompetent, indecisive and insipid.

I think five episodes is more than enough to get an impression of a show, so if it's not your cup of tea that's perfectly fine. I'm not surprised that's your impression, either - especially since yeah, she started out not really knowing what's up and what to do. I do think she gets better as a hero, and the show in general gets better, and I don't have big complaints against it in the feminism department.
Mighty Jalapeno: "See, Zohar agrees, and he's nice to people."
SecondTalon: "Still better looking than Jesus."

Not how I say my name

User avatar
Soupspoon
You have done something you shouldn't. Or are about to.
Posts: 3723
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:00 pm UTC
Location: 53-1

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby Soupspoon » Sun Aug 07, 2016 2:43 pm UTC

I've only seen the first two(/three?) episodes of Supergirl (through limited opportunity rather than as a personal decision to stay my hand) and I can see how the 'origin story' development could be off-putting, but have assumed that it will start to find its feet ovwr the course of the season, in the run up to some End Of Season conclusion where everything she's learnt (and learnt about) comes together in one final (two-part, cliff-hanger joined?) finale Big Boss Battle.

Then you have the Difficult Second Season where deliberate or discovered loose ends from the first are tied into the "You thought that Big Bad was challenging.!? This one now has added collateral danger/family tragedy/beloved character kill-off/superhero angst/shoehorned 'topicality'/executive meddling/mechandising opportunities!!"

But I personally give a series half a dozen episodes (or the first season, if that's shorter) to judge it, and I know that the first few episodes can be (though not necessarily must be) cringeworthy as rookie mistakes are painted out on-screen (by both the characters and the production team, sometimes - there's an Early Installment Weirdness trope for a reason).

Good luck with it. Maybe I'll update my views on the continued series if/when I get chance to view it. Until then, I'm left to generalise.

(Most confusing to me is what Ally McBeal is doing, acting so much out of character... ;) )

rmsgrey
Posts: 3477
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:35 pm UTC

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby rmsgrey » Sun Aug 07, 2016 3:34 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:But I personally give a series half a dozen episodes (or the first season, if that's shorter) to judge it, and I know that the first few episodes can be (though not necessarily must be) cringeworthy as rookie mistakes are painted out on-screen (by both the characters and the production team, sometimes - there's an Early Installment Weirdness trope for a reason).


Babylon 5 is my pet example of a series that takes its time to find its feet. Episode 4, Infection, in particular, could be re-written as a Star Trek (original series) episode without much more than changing some names around. My usual advice to people is to give it until Episode 13, Signs and Portents, before making a decision - or possibly to start with the beginning of S2 and then go back and watch S1 once you know what it's building towards...

User avatar
Soupspoon
You have done something you shouldn't. Or are about to.
Posts: 3723
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:00 pm UTC
Location: 53-1

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby Soupspoon » Sun Aug 07, 2016 5:00 pm UTC

I nearly mentioned B5 as an example of where I didn't need more than the first episode to know I was hooked. But I was so much less sophisticated then... *belches, spits on floor, wipes nose on sleeve1* ...and these days I appreciate the EIW with the benefit of knowing where it's all leading. Really, it was the excellent (for TV) CGI and the way that the Starfuries, didn't 'do a Colonial Viper' and swoop around on their rockets, but station-keep and retrothrust.

Yew, clunky by today's standards, and even its own (later on), but maybe even then I could see some of the hidden plot... Or I just liked the rendering. ;)


1 Not my own, naturally.

User avatar
keozen
The Bearded FaiD Batman
Posts: 1497
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:31 am UTC
Location: Yorkshire, UK
Contact:

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby keozen » Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:43 am UTC

Crowey & I saw Suicide Squad last night.

You know what, DC has a bunch of amazing characters and wonderful stories that they seem to be utterly failing to bring to our screens because they get a third of a way into producing a film and then get shit scared that another Marvel film made a ton of money so try and twist the film to be "more like that" and utterly ruin it.

Sigh.
Image

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:00 pm UTC

keozen wrote:Crowey & I saw Suicide Squad last night.

You know what, DC has a bunch of amazing characters and wonderful stories that they seem to be utterly failing to bring to our screens because they get a third of a way into producing a film and then get shit scared that another Marvel film made a ton of money so try and twist the film to be "more like that" and utterly ruin it.

Sigh.


This. I was mostly disappointed because, dammit, there was potential here.

rmsgrey
Posts: 3477
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:35 pm UTC

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby rmsgrey » Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:44 pm UTC

I too saw it last night (actually, I made it a double-feature with Star Trek Beyond).

I enjoyed it. Specifically, I enjoyed it more than Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice or Man of Steel. Not saying it was a particularly great movie, but it was fun having the people acting like jerks actually be bad guys for once rather than being told they're heroes. I liked what they did with Batman a lot more than in BvS. I liked having the JL teaser not interrupt the film's main action. I liked Will Smith's character arc. I loved Margot Robbie's Harley, and liked what Leto did with the Joker - very different from Nicholson, Hamil or Ledger, but still unmistakably the Joker. I enjoyed a lot of the villain banter.

There were things I didn't like - I'm hoping El Diablo gets more in future, Enchantress did what the antagonist needed to do, but never developed beyond that. Captain Boomerang was apparently only there to have someone willing to trick Slip Knot into proving the suicide charges were real, and Slip Knot was only there to be tricked into that.

Overall, though, I enjoyed the movie - it's not a cinematic masterpiece, but it gives me some hope that DC might at least be headed in the right direction.

Diadem wrote:One particular example of the tone of this movie being all over the place: There's this scene where they are about to enter a building. The team leader (I already forgot his name) instructs them all to be careful, but Deadshot just walks out of cover and kicks the door in. The team leader angrily shouts at him to come back a few times, then runs after him, and literally 5 seconds later he walks up to him all cool and casual, deadpanning "Mind if we tag along".


I thought that particular example worked - Flagg's options were to yell some more and emphasise that his control is limited to orders he's prepared to back up with the suicide charges, or to act like he's happy with the situation. The deadpan "Mind if we tag along" line is an attempt to reassert control, and a subtle rebuke to Deadshot about not trying to operate solo. It shows that Flagg accepts the situation but isn't exactly happy about it.

User avatar
Angua
Don't call her Delphine.
Posts: 5825
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:42 pm UTC
Location: UK/[St. Kitts and] Nevis Occasionally, I migrate to the US for a bit

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby Angua » Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:36 pm UTC

I must say, I thought it wasn't bad. I'm not a fan of anti-hero stories in general (probably why I hated Breaking Bad, and finding Prison break only so-so) so I wasn't that optimistic going in anyway (combined with BvS I was pretty pessimistic). However, it had actual humour (rather than whatever forced lines they could come up with in BvS, and some colour, and felt like they were spending more time on story and characters than cool visuals and fight scenes.

There were loads of plot holes and stuff, but most of them were fridge moments, so I didn't mind too much as that's to be expected in a comic book movie. I must say, it's made me a lot more excited for Wonder Woman and maybe even the Justice League.

Spoiler:
Why did Waller feel the need to make the head of her squad fall in love with one of its members? Can't really figure out the logic to that, given that Flagg was supposed to be so loyal to start with.

The Enchantress broke free ridiculously easily.

It would be nice to see love portrayed as something that wasn't used for manipulation - even Deadshot's kid got roped in a couple of times.

Are all metahumans potential god-like beings (Diablo also turned into what looked like an avatar for a god)?

Why on earth was Captain Boomerang part of the team? He brought literally nothing to the party except for possibly a camera on a boomerang.

The Joker felt more like a moody guy than actually like a Joker. It would be nice to see how Harley was implicated in the murder of Robin rather than it just flash up for less than a second on screen as some text.

It was a good twist that the mission was actually to rescue Waller. I must admit, didn't see that one coming.
Crabtree's bludgeon: “no set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated”
GNU Terry Pratchett

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18686
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:13 am UTC

Spoiler:
Angua wrote:It was a good twist that the mission was actually to rescue Waller. I must admit, didn't see that one coming.
Yeah, especially because it makes no goddamn sense, considering all she had to do was call in a chopper and fly out.The squad didn't rescue her as much as provide an excuse to get the viewer there. And good job Joker, hijacking a fucking military chopper!

Angua wrote:Why on earth was Captain Boomerang part of the team? He brought literally nothing to the party except for possibly a camera on a boomerang.
I love when they're fighting an extra dimensional being that for some reason isn't just melting them dead, and Harley, Deadshot, and Boomerang guy are like "We can help!"... such horseshit.

Angua wrote:The Joker felt more like a moody guy than actually like a Joker. It would be nice to see how Harley was implicated in the murder of Robin rather than it just flash up for less than a second on screen as some text.
I didn't even catch this... And yeah, Joker seemed more like he was dealing with domestic dispute issues than a criminal mastermind who was also insane.
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

User avatar
Angua
Don't call her Delphine.
Posts: 5825
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:42 pm UTC
Location: UK/[St. Kitts and] Nevis Occasionally, I migrate to the US for a bit

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby Angua » Thu Aug 11, 2016 7:17 am UTC

Spoiler:
I'm pretty sure the only reason I caught that is because I read super fast. After it happened I wasn't even sure if I'd seen it, but figured it would have been a specific false memory to have made up.
Crabtree's bludgeon: “no set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated”
GNU Terry Pratchett

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:09 pm UTC

Why the scene of Flagg murdering a chicken wing? Like...tonally, that just seemed freaking strange.

User avatar
AngrySquirrel
Hellish Sex Goddess
Posts: 1003
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:26 am UTC
Location: The Northpole

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby AngrySquirrel » Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:59 pm UTC

THIS MOVIE WAS COMPLETELY OK
Putting the fist into pacifist.

they/them/theirs

User avatar
You, sir, name?
Posts: 6983
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:07 am UTC
Location: Chako Paul City
Contact:

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby You, sir, name? » Thu Aug 18, 2016 1:48 pm UTC

Yeah. The first impressions I'd read were all super-negative, but then I went and watched the film with low expectations, and was positively surprised. Probably won't win any Oscars, but it wasn't bad, at least not by comic book adaptation standards.
I edit my posts a lot and sometimes the words wrong order words appear in sentences get messed up.

User avatar
Diadem
Posts: 5654
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:03 am UTC
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby Diadem » Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:50 pm UTC

Maybe not by 1990s comic book adaptation standards. But we have a lot of good movies in the MCU now. Standards are higher.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

User avatar
You, sir, name?
Posts: 6983
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:07 am UTC
Location: Chako Paul City
Contact:

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby You, sir, name? » Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:17 pm UTC

Counterpoints: Ant Man, Man of Steel, Iron Man, Any Spiderman film, Constantine, Daredevil, and Catwoman.
I edit my posts a lot and sometimes the words wrong order words appear in sentences get messed up.

User avatar
Diadem
Posts: 5654
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:03 am UTC
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby Diadem » Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:04 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:Counterpoints: Ant Man, Man of Steel, Iron Man, Any Spiderman film, Constantine, Daredevil, and Catwoman.

I'm confused. Iron Man was awesome, Ant Man was pretty good, and he rest aren't even in the MCU.

Maybe your post was meant as a direct reply to the post before mine, but why would you be replying to yourself? Also your list contains some very good, some decent and some terrible movies, so ehm, to what is it supposed to be at counterpoint?
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

User avatar
You, sir, name?
Posts: 6983
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:07 am UTC
Location: Chako Paul City
Contact:

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby You, sir, name? » Fri Aug 19, 2016 7:10 am UTC

It's a list of comic book films released after the 90s that were worse than, or comparable to Suicide Squad. Some MCU, some DC.
I edit my posts a lot and sometimes the words wrong order words appear in sentences get messed up.

User avatar
Zohar
COMMANDER PORN
Posts: 8287
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:45 pm UTC
Location: Denver

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby Zohar » Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:13 pm UTC

Surely if you mentioned Daredevil, you should mention Elektra, too?

I haven't seen the movie, but I will also say Iron Man was good, Ant Man was better than people say it is, the first two Toby Maguire Spidermen are not bad at all, and personally I liked the first Andrew Garfield one, too (particularly because his Peter Parker was pretty good IMO).
Mighty Jalapeno: "See, Zohar agrees, and he's nice to people."
SecondTalon: "Still better looking than Jesus."

Not how I say my name

rmsgrey
Posts: 3477
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:35 pm UTC

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby rmsgrey » Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:33 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Surely if you mentioned Daredevil, you should mention Elektra, too?

I haven't seen the movie, but I will also say Iron Man was good, Ant Man was better than people say it is, the first two Toby Maguire Spidermen are not bad at all, and personally I liked the first Andrew Garfield one, too (particularly because his Peter Parker was pretty good IMO).


Elektra never happened.

User avatar
natraj
Posts: 1848
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:13 pm UTC
Location: away from Omelas

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby natraj » Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:25 pm UTC

i am astounded that after the mcu was held up as our "high standards" that list of counterpoint comic book movies did not include age of ultron, the worst travesty to come out of the mcu yet. tbh i feel guilty even mentioning it because by and large i like to forget it even ever was made.
You want to know the future, love? Then wait:
I'll answer your impatient questions. Still --
They'll call it chance, or luck, or call it Fate,
The cards and stars that tumble as they will.

pronouns: they or he

User avatar
charliepanayi
Posts: 1531
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 7:26 pm UTC
Location: London, UK

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby charliepanayi » Fri Aug 19, 2016 7:15 pm UTC

I really liked Age of Ultron, always baffled by people hating it. And as mentioned Ant Man/Iron Man (plus Iron Man 3)/the first two Spiderman films are all decent. If you're going to pull out some counterpoints, at least mention all the Fantastic Four films to date.
"Excuse me Miss, do you like pineapple?"

"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work, I want to achieve it through not dying"

User avatar
natraj
Posts: 1848
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:13 pm UTC
Location: away from Omelas

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby natraj » Fri Aug 19, 2016 7:22 pm UTC

ant man was thoroughly mediocre, as was iron man 3 (tho the first was great)

i am a p huge marvel stan honestly but most of the mcu is Just Ok and its low points are Pretty Low i feel like it just coasts on how good, like, iron man and captain america are and then people have these rose glasses on and pretend every part of is is Fantastic when it's just meh.

fantastic four is completely awful tho that's true. if we are talking non-mcu marvel stuff then Oh me yarm x-men... so much of the x-men stuff. wolverine origins. x-3. x-men apocalypse. there is just such godawful tripe out there that makes suicide squad look like the pinnacle of superhero cinema greatness.

admittedly some parts of apocalypse were so bad i cracked up but that doesn't excuse how just unmitigatedly bad it was. suicide squad reviews made me think it was going to be THAT level of bad, but instead it was just kind of ant-man level of Bland with occasional moments of hey this is actually pretty fun!
You want to know the future, love? Then wait:
I'll answer your impatient questions. Still --
They'll call it chance, or luck, or call it Fate,
The cards and stars that tumble as they will.

pronouns: they or he

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6562
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby sardia » Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:06 am UTC

natraj wrote:ant man was thoroughly mediocre, as was iron man 3 (tho the first was great)

i am a p huge marvel stan honestly but most of the mcu is Just Ok and its low points are Pretty Low i feel like it just coasts on how good, like, iron man and captain america are and then people have these rose glasses on and pretend every part of is is Fantastic when it's just meh.

fantastic four is completely awful tho that's true. if we are talking non-mcu marvel stuff then Oh me yarm x-men... so much of the x-men stuff. wolverine origins. x-3. x-men apocalypse. there is just such godawful tripe out there that makes suicide squad look like the pinnacle of superhero cinema greatness.

admittedly some parts of apocalypse were so bad i cracked up but that doesn't excuse how just unmitigatedly bad it was. suicide squad reviews made me think it was going to be THAT level of bad, but instead it was just kind of ant-man level of Bland with occasional moments of hey this is actually pretty fun!

If you can't appreciate iron man 3, then your opinion based on very questionable grounds. What's wrong with it?

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26299
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby SecondTalon » Sat Aug 20, 2016 11:32 pm UTC

Lots of things?

Tony Stark suffering anxiety = good. The Mandarin being yet another white guy = bad.

I mean, I fully and completely understand that The Mandarin comes from a place of Yellow Peril racism. I also get that using the ten rings as written - magical devices - has some problems (or does it because you know fukkin' Doc Strange is gonna be a thing when you're writing it, writers) but you can get around that.

What I don't get is why The Mandarin has to be yet another white dude. Why not have him be a Chinese dude still peeved about colonialism and the current platform of the Chinese Government (and hell, make the actual Chinese Government happy by making him wrong).

As for the plot itself - it.. makes no real sense. Mostly in that... what the hell was Killian doing? Why? In order to understand a villain you have to understand the why - Whiplash in the prior film, for example, specifically targeted Tony for slights - real or perceived - that the Stark family had done to his. That was explained, it makes sense. Thor, same thing - we learn that Loki pretty much never felt like he belonged, nor that he would ever get the respect he feels he deserves, discovering that he's actually an ice giant and adopted kinda pushes him over the edge, and in the later Avengers thing he's working towards a goal for a new taskmaster (one that I'm thinking won't be resolved for several more films) and so on.

Killain got disrespected by Stark so he tries to take over the US. There's nothing to follow there. We don't learn that some Government program kept shutting him down despite his research being promising, he's presented more as a scientist/engineer like Tony, not someone lusting for political power anyway, so... what's the point? How did his end goal fit in with what we know of him?

We know he's a scientist, we know he got disrespected by Tony, we know his formula sorta works with a potential for weird superpowers in those it doesn't kill - that doesn't translate to coup. It's just weird and seems to be more of a "We want to use a thing and don't really have an idea of where to go with it so... take over the US."

I mean, I get that he was also working with the VP, but he had the power in that relationship, he set the terms. Ruling the US just seems weird and out of place for what we know of him and his goals - and his goals seemed to even change, going from making a scientific cure-all to making a loyal if small army of covert super-soldiers.

I mean, the House Party Protocol was fantastic, sure, but a few fantastic action sequences does not a good movie make.



Also, Jesus Christ, if you hire Ben Kingsley you let him do something more than a few scary monologues and then a frat boy impersonation.
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
charliepanayi
Posts: 1531
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 7:26 pm UTC
Location: London, UK

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby charliepanayi » Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:07 am UTC

Ben Kingsley isn't white. For god's sake he played Gandhi!

Plus he's hilarious in Iron Man 3.
"Excuse me Miss, do you like pineapple?"

"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work, I want to achieve it through not dying"

User avatar
The Great Hippo
Swans ARE SHARP
Posts: 7212
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:43 am UTC
Location: behind you

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby The Great Hippo » Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:29 am UTC

Also, I remember thinking 'where the hell did Killian find a surplus of US veterans willing to not just work as mercenaries, but commit treason by kidnapping and murdering the President of the United States?' I don't think US soldiers are all perfect pure-at-heart heroes, but killing the President? That's, uh... a bit much.

Also, I never understood Killian's plan, or why anyone else bought into it: "I'll execute the President, and the vice President will follow all my orders 'cuz that's the only way I'll save his daughter by giving her Extremis." Wait, once you give his daughter Extremis, why would the Vice President continue to take orders from you? Also, how stupid is this Vice President? "A weird super-scientist guy offered to inject my dying daughter with medicine that LITERALLY MAKES PEOPLE EXPLODE. This sounds totally legit and worth committing high treason over!" Also, seriously, your entire system of control is going to be based off of one guy's daughter? If she dies / something goes wrong, everything collapses. This is a ridiculous and dumb plan, and even if you handwave it by saying Killian's ridiculous and dumb, that doesn't explain why so many people are following him.

(Though, I still think the highlight of this movie is the fact that somebody invented a super-soldier serum that works, but sometimes makes you explode)

(also, on-topic: I have not seen this movie and I'm prolly not going to bother, it seems boring and uninteresting)

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26299
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby SecondTalon » Sun Aug 21, 2016 12:53 pm UTC

charliepanayi wrote:Ben Kingsley isn't white. For god's sake he played Gandhi!

Plus he's hilarious in Iron Man 3.

Ben Kingsley didn't play The Mandarin.
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
Soupspoon
You have done something you shouldn't. Or are about to.
Posts: 3723
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:00 pm UTC
Location: 53-1

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby Soupspoon » Sun Aug 21, 2016 1:32 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
charliepanayi wrote:Ben Kingsley isn't white. For god's sake he played Gandhi!

Plus he's hilarious in Iron Man 3.

Ben Kingsley didn't play The Mandarin.

He meta-played him, though... (Almost certainly he exists, but not even in the form of Guy Pierce, much as Killian might try to make it the 'truth' within the 'truth'.)

KnightExemplar
Posts: 5494
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:58 pm UTC

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby KnightExemplar » Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:14 pm UTC

This movie was fine.

----------------

Iron Man 3 and Thor2 were objectively worse movie than this one IMO. No comparison at all. I still preferred say... Capt. America Civil War > Suicide Squad (as an example), but both movies are equally arbitrary at points. But yeah, Suicide Squad is a movie about a witch who takes over the minds of US Secret Agents and a Bureaucrat who sends criminals on super-secret missions. Crazy plots like that almost demand some facts to be glossed over to make things fit together.

Ex: Civil War: did everyone forget about Nick Fury and Shield? I mean, Nick Fury is US Government and I could have sworn he was the one responsible for the actions of the superheroes and the damage they cause. The US Government fired a nuke at NYC for goodness sake in Avengers 1, they clearly didn't care about collateral damage at that point. The transition from Shield -> Avengers -> UN Charter is just... arbitrary. There's nothing else to say about it.

Alas, movie logic. Events are being forgotten for the sake of coalescing the plot and railroading the audience down a certain path.

Suicide Squad is still a fresh movie universe and doesn't suffer from any real continuity problems yet. Its a fresh idea, filled with fresh characters. And I frankly didn't see quite as many "errors" in Suicide Squad than I do in the typical Marvel movie.

------------


I'm not saying this movie was perfect. Boomerang was... a completely unnecessary character. In fact, a lot of characters were unnecessary or poorly explained. Katana, Croc, Boomerang were kinda just tagging along. Although Harley Quinn's backstory seemed a bit light on details (but no lighter than say... Rocket and Groot from Guardians of the Galaxy), you had enough backstory to know the important tidbits. She's in love with Joker, and Joker is in love with her. `Nuff said, and the movie doesn't really waste anyone's time explaining the obvious.

Deadshot is the main character, and the most time is spent on his development. His story is a tired old trope, but it works. It doesn't really break new ground but that's not a "sin" as much as its "I've seen this story before". Will Smith pulls off this tired-old story trope off though. Great actor, definitely the centerpiece of this movie.

Frankly, the whole US Government stuff was handled better in Suicide Squad than all of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. The main difference is that an imperfect character (ie: Amanda Waller) is pulling way too many strings. But that's what makes her interesting: character flaws make a better story IMO. It was nice to see competent special-forces dispatched WITH the Suicide Squad for once. I mean, yeah, the troops were redshirts, but they weren't cannon-fodder.

Spoiler:
The swimmers were the one who actually blew up the bomb to take out Enchantress's Brother. A major-boss taken out by the redshirts on the protagonist's side.
First Strike +1/+1 and Indestructible.

rmsgrey
Posts: 3477
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:35 pm UTC

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby rmsgrey » Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:43 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Ex: Civil War: did everyone forget about Nick Fury and Shield? I mean, Nick Fury is US Government and I could have sworn he was the one responsible for the actions of the superheroes and the damage they cause. The US Government fired a nuke at NYC for goodness sake in Avengers 1, they clearly didn't care about collateral damage at that point. The transition from Shield -> Avengers -> UN Charter is just... arbitrary. There's nothing else to say about it.


Nick Fury was notionally in charge up until Winter Soldier, when he was killed (and is probably still officially dead) and SHIELD was revealed to have been infiltrated by HYDRA and got dismantled (except for Coulson's team, who are still out there in TV land). Since then, the Avengers have just kinda kept going with funding from Tony and no official oversight. While they were just going after HYDRA bases, no-one really minded, but then there was that whole Ultron mess, and Sokovia getting trashed, and people started realising that there was this group of people with no adult supervision - and not only that, but they're recruiting now too. The Lagos incident provided an excuse to lock down the loose cannons, but it wasn't about the collateral damage - that's just the public excuse - it's about the potential creation of a new independent world power...

Sure, technically, New York was the responsibility of the World Security Council, and only the Avengers' willingness to disobey orders kept it from being a much worse tragedy, but the point of bringing it up is that when the Avengers get involved, people die, and property gets destroyed. And it's only an incidental mention beside the main points - the Triskelion, Sokovia, Johannesburg, Lagos - which are inarguably due to the Avengers.

KnightExemplar
Posts: 5494
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:58 pm UTC

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Aug 22, 2016 4:19 am UTC

rmsgrey wrote:MCU Stuff


In any point: I bring these issues up not because they particularly pissed me off, but as a reminder that the MCU is beginning to have continuity problems. Don't get me wrong: it was utterly awful how the comics kept things consistent, so I almost prefer the MCU version where they just gloss over the details. And that's the important thing about these movies: you need to gloss over the details and live within the moment of the movie. And that's just fine.

I bring up Civil War because its one of the objectively better movies in the MCU and yet I can definitely point out continuity problems pretty easily.

Yes, I know the story the movies are trying to tell. But you really can't convince me that Capt. America (US Army), The Falcon (US Air Force), Black Widow (Former Shield: probably still on US Government payroll of some kind), War Machine (US Air Force), Hawkeye (okay, he retired. The only legitimate one...) weren't under some kind of hierarchy. I mean, its stated right in the damn movie: The Vibranium Shield and Falcon's suit are US Government property. It was a specific plot point of the movie that added to the drama of some scenes.

Are you really telling me that Capt. America and Falcon were allowed to run all those missions using US Military equipment without any blessing or oversight the whole damn time?

---------

Bringing it back to Suicide Squad: the DC Cinematic Universe is still fresh and without continuity errors. Yeah, Joker randomly showed up (but he's a minor character. It was no less random than Nick Fury's random appearances in say... Civil War). I really can't think of too many movie sins that would make Suicide Squad a less-than 30% movie on Rotten Tomatoes.

Its definitely better than that.

Capt. America Civil War is a 90% on Rotten Tomatoes. Suicide Squad is currently 26%. And while I think that Civil War is > Suicide Squad... I really don't think it was THAT much of a better movie.
First Strike +1/+1 and Indestructible.

maybeagnostic
Posts: 626
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:34 pm UTC

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby maybeagnostic » Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:49 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Capt. America Civil War is a 90% on Rotten Tomatoes. Suicide Squad is currently 26%. And while I think that Civil War is > Suicide Squad... I really don't think it was THAT much of a better movie.
That is not what the tomatometer score means though. It isn't saying "Suicide Squad is a 2.6/10 movie and Civil War is a 9/10 movie so one is vastly better than the other". It is saying "90% of critics gave the latter at least 3/5 stars or better while only 25% of those same critics did the same for the former". So if a movie is worse than people expected it can get a bad score even if it isn't godawful while meeting expectations and being decent gives you a very high score.

Also personal opinion but Winter Soldier is maybe the only genuinely good superhero movie out there. I mean good without any qualifiers like "for a superhero movie" or "for its time" or "if you've seen the previous one(s)" or "if you don't think about it too hard" etc. The only other candidate might be The Dark Knight but I haven't rewatched it since it premiered and I don't I'll ever take the risk of rewatching it and ruining my good memories. Also thinks like the 90s Batman cartoon and the Incredibles are awesome but I don't think of them as superhero movies for some reason.

Anyway, it all boils down to the fact that MCU movies are going for a light jocular care-free tone and some plot inconsistencies in movies like that can be easily forgiven. DC movies are going for dark, brooding and serious but they are every bit as nonsensical and childish and I find it very hard to forgive The Dark Knight Rises for having a five-year-old's understanding of how money and police work or The Man of Steel for presenting its rudimentary philosophical musings as some deep complex insight.
T: ... through an emergency induction port.
S: That's a straw, Tali.
T: Emerrrgency induction port.

User avatar
Zohar
COMMANDER PORN
Posts: 8287
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:45 pm UTC
Location: Denver

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby Zohar » Mon Aug 22, 2016 1:05 pm UTC

I should watch Winter Soldier again. It's definitely the second best superhero film, the first being The Incredibles.
Mighty Jalapeno: "See, Zohar agrees, and he's nice to people."
SecondTalon: "Still better looking than Jesus."

Not how I say my name

User avatar
The Great Hippo
Swans ARE SHARP
Posts: 7212
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:43 am UTC
Location: behind you

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Aug 22, 2016 1:13 pm UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:Also personal opinion but Winter Soldier is maybe the only genuinely good superhero movie out there.
Zohar wrote:I should watch Winter Soldier again. It's definitely the second best superhero film, the first being The Incredibles.
I dunno about Winter Soldier, but -- yeah, The Incredibles wins my vote for the greatest superhero movie so far.

KnightExemplar
Posts: 5494
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:58 pm UTC

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:30 pm UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Capt. America Civil War is a 90% on Rotten Tomatoes. Suicide Squad is currently 26%. And while I think that Civil War is > Suicide Squad... I really don't think it was THAT much of a better movie.
That is not what the tomatometer score means though. It isn't saying "Suicide Squad is a 2.6/10 movie and Civil War is a 9/10 movie so one is vastly better than the other". It is saying "90% of critics gave the latter at least 3/5 stars or better while only 25% of those same critics did the same for the former". So if a movie is worse than people expected it can get a bad score even if it isn't godawful while meeting expectations and being decent gives you a very high score.


Fair enough. But if I change over to Metacritic scores (which does actual averages) we have 40% on Metacritic for Suicide Squad vs 75% on Capt. America Civil War.

Which is still a stunning difference in review score that isn't easily explained... aside from maybe all the critics being really pissed off about Batman vs Superman and maybe that saltiness carried over to this movie?

The Great Hippo wrote:
maybeagnostic wrote:Also personal opinion but Winter Soldier is maybe the only genuinely good superhero movie out there.
Zohar wrote:I should watch Winter Soldier again. It's definitely the second best superhero film, the first being The Incredibles.
I dunno about Winter Soldier, but -- yeah, The Incredibles wins my vote for the greatest superhero movie so far.


The cheap knockoff of the Fantastic Four manages to be a good movie, a better movie than the THREE Fantastic Four movies that have come out since then. :-(
First Strike +1/+1 and Indestructible.

User avatar
Zohar
COMMANDER PORN
Posts: 8287
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:45 pm UTC
Location: Denver

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby Zohar » Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:38 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Which is still a stunning difference in review score that isn't easily explained... aside from maybe all the critics being really pissed off about Batman vs Superman and maybe that saltiness carried over to this movie?

I imagine high expectations following the trailers had something to do with it.

The cheap knockoff of the Fantastic Four manages to be a good movie, a better movie than the THREE Fantastic Four movies that have come out since then. :-(

I don't know why you would call it a "cheap knockoff"... But yes, there are obviously very striking similarities. I remember when the first Fantastic Four came out and I read a review which said the worst thing about the movie is it already came out in a better version the previous summer, under the name "The Incredibles".
Mighty Jalapeno: "See, Zohar agrees, and he's nice to people."
SecondTalon: "Still better looking than Jesus."

Not how I say my name


Return to “Movies and TV Shows”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests