Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Rot your brains, then rot our boards

Moderators: SecondTalon, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
natraj
Posts: 1805
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:13 pm UTC
Location: away from Omelas

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby natraj » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:06 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Why would Capt. Boomerang be more relatable to the audience than Deadshot?

A: Capt. Boomerang's story arc is utter shit.

B: Virtually everyone I know said that Will Smith's Deadshot is basically the best thing about the movie. Everyone I know was able to relate to Deadshot's drama with his daughter.

By process of elimination, the only reason why someone would "relate" to Capt. Boomerang over Deadshot is because he's white.


PRETTY MUCH THIS.

and diadem, i appreciate that it might not seem relevant to you. you are entitled to that opinion! but for me, i appreciated very much suicide squad's inclusion of not just one but many different characters who were not Stock White Dude. i do not want them to replace that with one character who is Stock Not White Dude. i want them, in fact, to keep the movie just how it was! (ok, not in every single aspect, it certainly had a lot of terrible, but i am strictly talking about in terms of its cast of characters and who all the (anti)heroes were.)

i don't want the movie to have been focused around Boring Generic White Captain Boomerang. i also don't want, like you are suggesting maybe i should be happy with, it to have been focused around Black Captain Boomerang.

a) why on earth should it change deadshot is already so fantastic i dunno why it needs to have him not keep being fantastic;

b) there are already so many great characters in the movie as-is who are NOT the Generic White Action Dude that obviously we're always expected to relate to (since clearly White Man is Default Human) that i am totally happy just leaving them. i wouldn't be happy if el diablo had less of a role. or harley. (i'd be happy if killer croc and katana had more of a role, but i certainly want to keep them in!)
You want to know the future, love? Then wait:
I'll answer your impatient questions. Still --
They'll call it chance, or luck, or call it Fate,
The cards and stars that tumble as they will.

pronouns: they or he

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18686
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:11 pm UTC

Considering how utterly boring Captain Boomerang is, I don't understand why anyone cares about him. In a story with extraplanar witches, Bullseye knock off assassins, a woman who went toe to toe with Joker and kind-of-sort-of-maybe-its-complicated won, and a giant crocodile-man, to name a few, we give a shit about the bank robber who throws boomerangs?
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

User avatar
Diadem
Posts: 5654
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:03 am UTC
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby Diadem » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:15 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
Diadem wrote:
natraj wrote:i legit did not care at all about that youtuber's version of suicide squad to be honest, like, we have seventeen zillion hollywood movies already that are Generic Boring Mediocre White Dude Who For Some Unfathomable Reason We Are All Supposed To Care About i was totally thrilled that suicide squad had a cast chock full of stars who were NOT that but of course Random White Dude thinks that the movie could be Vastly Improved by making its central plot be Generic Boring Mediocre White Dude Is Actually The Protagonist, clearly that is what this movie needs.

That's just silly. Which character to make the protagonist, and which skin colors to give your characters, are completely orthogonal issues. If you want Boomerang dude to be the protagonist, and you want the protagonist to be black, then simply make Boomerang dude black. Given that Will Smith is the biggest name in the movie it makes sense to give him the protagonist role anyway.


Why would Capt. Boomerang be more relatable to the audience than Deadshot?

A: Capt. Boomerang's story arc is utter shit.

You know, I'm not going to disagree with you. Capt. Boomerang's arc is utter shit. Cutting him from the movie entirely may be the best approach.

All I objected to was the idea that Capt. Boomerang can't be a good protagonist because he's white. As if the skin color of characters isn't easily changed. Heck, Deadshot was also white before they recast him. If they can recast a character as black they can cast a character as black.

Having an ensemble cast is always difficult to pull of, especially if all of the characters are new to the big screen. Focusing mostly on a a few characters helps, because it makes for a much simpler narrative structure. But if you do that, you should focus on the weaker, lesser known, members of the team, otherwise the rest of the team just becomes background noise. Which is exactly what happened in Suicide Squad. The eponymous Squad was basically Deadshot, Harley Quinn and some background extras.

The main problem is that Capt. Boomerang's inclusion was not fully explained. Capt. Boomerang looks like a selfish asshole with impractical weapons. There are 30+ special forces guys that went with the team (who effectively functioned as redshirts in the action sequences), and Capt. Boomerang never seemed as competent as them.

None of the characters are explained. In your list of characters you completely forgot he guy that gets blown up when he tries to escape. I nearly forgot about him to. The katana chick was literally introduced by having her jump into a helicopter just as they were about to take off, with someone saying "you're late".

Ensemble casts are hard to do. The Avengers pulls it of, but they have pre-established characters. Lord of the Rings does it very well, but they have 12 hours of runtime there. Guardians of the Galaxy is the nearest example I can think of. But the cast in GotG is much smaller. They have a team of 5, with basically only 4 other important characters (Ronan, Thanos, his daughter (whom I just found out is played by Karen Gillan of Doctor Who fame. Wow) and Yondu). Suicide Squad has much more characters to keep track of.

But more important than that is the way the movie is set up. GotG introduces us first to Peter Quill, taking a lot of time to explore his character and backstory. Then we're introduced to the other characters one by one. Lord of the Rings does the same thing. We start with Frodo and Gandalf, then we get Sam, then Merry and Peppin, then Strider, and finally Boromir, Gimli and Legolas. By the time we meet the last three fellowship characters we're far into the first movie, and have had a lot of time to establish the others.

Suicide Squad just dumps all the characters on us at once, which just makes it so hard to give each character a distinct presence in the movie.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

User avatar
Diadem
Posts: 5654
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:03 am UTC
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby Diadem » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:37 pm UTC

natraj wrote:and diadem, i appreciate that it might not seem relevant to you. you are entitled to that opinion! but for me, i appreciated very much suicide squad's inclusion of not just one but many different characters who were not Stock White Dude. i do not want them to replace that with one character who is Stock Not White Dude. i want them, in fact, to keep the movie just how it was! (ok, not in every single aspect, it certainly had a lot of terrible, but i am strictly talking about in terms of its cast of characters and who all the (anti)heroes were.)

Having a more diverse cast is important to me also. I liked suicide squad having a very diverse cast. I just don't see how this is linked to specific characters. And you know, upon thinking about it more I agree that Capt. Boomerang would be a lousy main character. His power is just too stupid. And Deadeye is more relatable to the audience anyway because he's better known.

But I just don't see how this has anything to do with a character's race. Because for a superhero movie such as this one you can just cast any character as any race you want. Heck, Deadeye was recast from a white guy to a black guy. And your 'generic boring' objection is just a result of the character not being developed, which would (or at least should, if the writers are competent) no longer be the case if they were the main character.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

KnightExemplar
Posts: 5494
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:58 pm UTC

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:38 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Considering how utterly boring Captain Boomerang is, I don't understand why anyone cares about him. In a story with extraplanar witches, Bullseye knock off assassins, a woman who went toe to toe with Joker and kind-of-sort-of-maybe-its-complicated won, and a giant crocodile-man, to name a few, we give a shit about the bank robber who throws boomerangs?


It's more about how awful the director / writers made Capt. Boomerang. He's a dude who throws boomerangs so well he goes toe-to-toe with The Flash. With that in mind, Capt. Boomerang would have been able to do a miraculous trickshot, like

Spoiler:
Hitting Enchantress while she was teleporting. Or something skilled on that level.


But otherwise, he is a boring character because the writers made him boring.

Diadem wrote:All I objected to was the idea that Capt. Boomerang can't be a good protagonist because he's white. As if the skin color of characters isn't easily changed. Heck, Deadshot was also white before they recast him. If they can recast a character as black they can cast a character as black.


Fair enough. The youtuber's explanation is extremely hand wavy however.

None of the characters are explained. In your list of characters you completely forgot he guy that gets blown up when he tries to escape. I nearly forgot about him to. The katana chick was literally introduced by having her jump into a helicopter just as they were about to take off, with someone saying "you're late".


Deadshot, Waller, and Harley Quinn are very well explained.

I didn't forget Slip Knot because Slip Knot isn't a character, any more than the redshirt / special ops guy who blew himself up with the bomb under Diablo / Enchantress's brother. Katana has more of a story arc than say... Admiral Ackbar in Episode 6. She fights for good and her husband is trapped inside of her sword. Its short and to the point. Its inclusion isn't hurting the story at all. Its just a hyper-compressed story arc.

In any case, you're pretty much arguing that compression is bad. However, compression / decompression is an eternal debate in the comic world. I can't say either one is good or bad. But naturally, compressed storylines have large casts without much character development (Star Wars follows compression: Admiral Ackbar, Mon Mothma, Wedge Antilles are all colorful, memorable characters without much of a backstory).

Clearly, they were going for a compressed storyline in Suicide Squad. That means you need to compare the "character depth" of say... Capt. Boomerang... to the character depth of Admiral "Its a Trap" Ackbar.

At which point, its clear that "shallowness" isn't the problem, its the imbalance of the cast. Admiral Ackbar is roughly on the same playing field as Wedge Antilles (and all the other colorful characters that participate in the Death Star 2.0 run). So they don't really hog the limelight or distract from the story.

Capt. Boomerang manages to draw attention to himself and then appear utterly useless in this film. That's more a sign of bad editing than anything really. I can imagine a better film where Capt. Boomerang actually does something useful (which would be the compression route. Ex: Wedge is the only pilot that survives both Death Star runs). I can also imagine a better film where Capt. Boomerang is simply cut to make room for the other characters (which would be decompression: more focus on character development and interaction).

Tyndmyr wrote:Honestly, asking Batman for help is probably a better solution than using the Suicide Squad for...most things. Let alone, yknow, calling up one of the OTHER Justice League level folks that she apparently knows about. It's partially justified in that Waller relies on control, rather than asking politely, and she probably can't control any of those folks. So, even if it's not an efficient solution, it kind of makes sense character-wise, so long as we don't think about how Waller could manipulate Batman indirectly or something.

Enchantress isn't necessarily bad as a character, just weak given the choices made. She gets enough detail for us to want to know more, but we don't really get that followed up on. Her brother is...ridiculously weak as a character, and ads little. The final fight scene was chaotic and confusing, and for the big threat, we're again relying on CGI vagueness. This is an issue in a LOT of movies. Fan4stic. Green Lantern. Age of Apocalpyse. If "CGI stuff swirling magically" is the threat, it's hard to really get a sense of when it really is too late, or how great the threat is. Plus, yknow, it often looks fake as shit. Fan4stic was way worse here, but still. Rocks spinning in a circle is odd, sure, but it's kinda vague and impersonal.


CGI isn't necessarily the bad thing. See Guardians of the Galaxy finale for example, which is a CGI battle in the sky (complete with an unexplained... shield barrier... link thingy). Or... virtually every Guardians of the Galaxy fight scene aside from the prison break.

I think the key to good "CGI fight scene" is something for the audience to understand. Ronin could NOT touch the power gem to the surface. There's a physicality to that. Ronin is in space / the sky / on the ground... it gives the audience a measurement of how close the villain was to winning. Despite the massive amounts of CGI (and unexplained techno-powers) that the directors used to make the scene work.

I know a lot of people like to bag on magic, but I don't think that's inherently the problem. As an example, "controlling the heart of the witch" is concrete. It's shown, we know exactly how it works, and it makes sense. Yeah, it might be magic, but it works on clearly defined rules for the purposes of the plot. Sudden brother that overrules this by sharing power with her does not. There's literally no reason to expect that. The first is good, the second is handled crappily.


Yeah, I can agree to that.
Last edited by KnightExemplar on Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:00 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.
First Strike +1/+1 and Indestructible.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11032
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:46 pm UTC

Only real similarity I can think of is the introduction of the dwarves in the hobbit films.

And outside of one or two of them, they all blur together really badly.

KnightExemplar
Posts: 5494
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:58 pm UTC

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:54 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Only real similarity I can think of is the introduction of the dwarves in the hobbit films.

And outside of one or two of them, they all blur together really badly.


Everyone in Suicide Squad is well defined however (aside from the special-forces redshirts). We all know and remember Capt. Boomerang or Killer Croc. No one is really "blending together" in the say the dwarves did in the Hobbit.
First Strike +1/+1 and Indestructible.

User avatar
LaserGuy
Posts: 4517
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:33 pm UTC

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:21 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:Ensemble casts are hard to do. The Avengers pulls it of, but they have pre-established characters. Lord of the Rings does it very well, but they have 12 hours of runtime there. Guardians of the Galaxy is the nearest example I can think of. But the cast in GotG is much smaller. They have a team of 5, with basically only 4 other important characters (Ronan, Thanos, his daughter (whom I just found out is played by Karen Gillan of Doctor Who fame. Wow) and Yondu). Suicide Squad has much more characters to keep track of.

But more important than that is the way the movie is set up. GotG introduces us first to Peter Quill, taking a lot of time to explore his character and backstory. Then we're introduced to the other characters one by one. Lord of the Rings does the same thing. We start with Frodo and Gandalf, then we get Sam, then Merry and Peppin, then Strider, and finally Boromir, Gimli and Legolas. By the time we meet the last three fellowship characters we're far into the first movie, and have had a lot of time to establish the others.

Suicide Squad just dumps all the characters on us at once, which just makes it so hard to give each character a distinct presence in the movie.


It's also worth mentioning that in Lord of the Rings, for example, the character backstories, to what extent they're necessary, are woven into the plot organically. The movie focuses its attention on the characters in the present and developing relationships between them. We don't interrupt the Council of Rivendale to do a 10 minute flashback showing Boromir being sent by his father to attend the council and gather allies for Gondor, where we meet his brother, and see him traveling across the land showing off his badassness as a swordsman by fighting some orcs on his own. He gets three or four lines within the conversation at Rivendale that tell us: 1) he's from a human country that is likely to bear the brunt of any offensive from Mordor, 2) he believes that the Ring should be used against Sauron instead of destroyed, and 3) he is son of the Steward of Gondor and doesn't recognize Aragorn's claim to the throne. 20 seconds tops, fully integrated into an important scene, and that gives you enough understanding of his character to move forward.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11032
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Suicide Squad: You've gotta be Joker

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:53 pm UTC

I have a particular hatred for flashbacks within flashbacks.

Bat vs Supes used flashbacks quite badly, IMO. Suicide Squad used them more conventionally. Serial introductions. Not very exciting or engaging, but at least it's easy enough to follow. Ideally, yeah, you get the necessary backstory in without exposition and flashbacks, but that's sometimes hard to write.


Return to “Movies and TV Shows”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests