Kubo and the Two Strings

[Angua]

Worked fine in Moana.

Not sure where it was implied they had to have an accent just because they were POC.

Weren't a lot of Moana voice actors actually Polynesian?

This was exactly my point?

Moana had a Polynesian cast, with actors who you could understand fine (oh noes, can't have voice actors with accents), and quite a few of them were unknown (oh noes, can't have voice actors who aren't experienced).

Like, you have literally just proved my point.

And again, it's a bit unfair to POC to tell them they can't do roles until they are more experienced, and then never allow them to become more experienced in the first place.

[KnightExemplar]

Worked fine in Moana.

Not sure where it was implied they had to have an accent just because they were POC.

Weren't a lot of Moana voice actors actually Polynesian?

This was exactly my point?

Moana had a Polynesian cast, with actors who you could understand fine (oh noes, can't have voice actors with accents), and quite a few of them were unknown (oh noes, can't have voice actors who aren't experienced).

Like, you have literally just proved my point.

And again, it's a bit unfair to POC to tell them they can't do roles until they are more experienced, and then never allow them to become more experienced in the first place.

I'm not going to lie, but I'm not entirely sure what your point is. I can get that you disagree with me on some issue, but I'm not "getting it" right now.

EDIT: Okay, my mind was herp-derping. I forgot what I wrote earlier and now see how your post works in the context of my earlier posts. Anyway, a big point of mine is that the representation of Japanese Culture in this movie was a celebratory manner. If this movie were like... The Aristocats that perpetuated a bad stereotype... that'd be one thing.

But for the most part, Kubo and the Two Strings were about "cool" Japanese roles. Either a Japanese Mystical Moon-person, or a Samurai, and whatnot. Its generally a good thing for the culture IMO.

[The Great Hippo]

1) Japanese-Americans make up less than half a percent of the population. So no, not that many.

...you understand that not all English-speaking Japanese voice-actors necessarily live in America, right?

Call all those movies "whitewashing" or whatever. But its legitimately cool to be a Samurai or Ninja. That's the American White-culture accepting Japanese roles and wanting to be like them. That's the height of respect. Compare and contrast to my culture, and the difference is absolutely staggering. That's the reason why its fine. When white people want to pretend to be a Japanese Samurai, that's respectful of the culture.

...yeah, no, that's not how respect works. Like, at all.

What makes it fine is whether or not the people who's culture you're co-opting are actually mostly okay with it. Everything else you said is kind of nonsensical.

[KnightExemplar]

What makes it fine is whether or not the people who's culture you're co-opting are actually mostly okay with it. Everything else you said is kind of nonsensical.

And fair enough. That's a big issue as well. I don't think that negates anything I said however.

Lets go back to Zohar's point then: since the Japanese seem to be mostly fine with Scarlet Johansson playing the role of "The Major"... does that make everything okay all of a sudden?

[The Great Hippo]

If the vast majority of Japanese people/American-Japanese people don't give a shit, then I'm not going to give a shit on their behalf. You can't disrespect a culture if the people in that culture don't feel disrespected.

[KnightExemplar]

Everything else you said is kind of nonsensical.

There's a undercurrent in Filipeno-American culture. As Filipeno-Americans watch their culture disappear from 1st Generation to 2nd Generation and onwards... there is a lot of anxiety. We're the 2nd largest immigrants to the USA, but do not enjoy any recognition by the greater American Culture.

Again: when people say "Asian" in the USA, they mean Japanese or Chinese. This disassociation ignores the fact that Filipenos are a huge group: basically its #1 China / #2 India / #3 Filipeno. With Filipenos the #2 immigration source in recent years after Mexico.

I realize that what I said was a bit off topic. But its an issue in the immigrant community I'm a part of anyway.

[Zohar]

Among Asians, the Japanese are looked upon most favorably by American culture. So a lot of the discussion here is kinda ridiculous from my viewpoint.

It really sounds like you're saying "those Japanese should consider themselves lucky"...

Lets go back to Zohar's point then: since the Japanese seem to be mostly fine with Scarlet Johansson playing the role of "The Major"... does that make everything okay all of a sudden?

My point was Japanese and Japanese-American people could have different opinions and different interests. The fact that Japanese people in Japan have no issue with this casting doesn't mean it's not an issue. I'm sure, for instance, many Israelis wouldn't give a shit either, but Israelis are neither Americans nor Japanese, for the most part.

[KnightExemplar]

Among Asians, the Japanese are looked upon most favorably by American culture. So a lot of the discussion here is kinda ridiculous from my viewpoint.

It really sounds like you're saying "those Japanese should consider themselves lucky"...

In contrast to my culture, they better believe it.

Lets go back to Zohar's point then: since the Japanese seem to be mostly fine with Scarlet Johansson playing the role of "The Major"... does that make everything okay all of a sudden?

My point was Japanese and Japanese-American people could have different opinions and different interests. The fact that Japanese people in Japan have no issue with this casting doesn't mean it's not an issue. I'm sure, for instance, many Israelis wouldn't give a shit either, but Israelis are neither Americans nor Japanese, for the most part.

Do you have any articles of a Japanese-American reviewer stating their opinion on Kubo and the Two Strings?

[The Great Hippo]

There's a undercurrent in Filipeno-American culture. As Filipeno-Americans watch their culture disappear from 1st Generation to 2nd Generation and onwards... there is a lot of anxiety. We're the 2nd largest immigrants to the USA, but do not enjoy any recognition by the greater American Culture.

I apologize. I should have clarified: Everything you said about respect was nonsensical. I don't think the stuff you're saying about Filipeno-American culture is necessarily nonsensical, and while I'm not intimately familiar with the situation, I'm at least vaguely aware of the idea of a 'cultural hierarchy' of Asian-Americans (and how it's totally fucked up).

[gmalivuk]

Japanese-Americans and the Japanese are two different groups of people, and one of them being mostly fine with something doesn't magically negate any and all concerns the other has with it.

The Japanese aren't underrepresented in Japanese movies, and Japanese culture doesn't fetishize and exotify them, so right there are a couple major and relevant differences when it comes to representation in American cinema.

[The Great Hippo]

Japanese-Americans and the Japanese are two different groups of people, and one of them being mostly fine with something doesn't magically negate any and all concerns the other has with it.

I agree, but -- just to underline the point -- and as much as it might pain me to agree with KE on anything:

Do you have any articles of a Japanese-American reviewer stating their opinion on Kubo and the Two Strings?

This cuts to the core of the issue. Maybe not an article, but at least some Japanese-Americans expressing concern or disgust or even disapproval over the casting choices in this movie.

If hardly anyone among this group gives a shit, I'm not going to give a shit. In fact, doing otherwise strikes me as disrespectful -- like I'm trying to appropriate someone else's sense of outrage for my own. I can't be offended on someone else's behalf; it's neither my place nor my right.

[KnightExemplar]

Do you have any articles of a Japanese-American reviewer stating their opinion on Kubo and the Two Strings?

This cuts to the core of the issue. Maybe not an article, but at least some Japanese-Americans expressing concern or disgust or even disapproval over the casting choices in this movie.

If hardly anyone among this group gives a shit, I'm not going to give a shit. In fact, doing otherwise strikes me as disrespectful -- like I'm trying to appropriate someone else's sense of outrage for my own. I can't be offended on someone else's behalf; it's not my place.

Give Zohar the chance to respond! Lol, I literally just issued the challenge.

I've been proven wrong before with these sorts of challenges. I issue them in some degree of ignorance: I can't know everything after all. But in this case, I haven't seen major negative reviews. IE: I can think of a few outrage situations with regards to Ghost in a Shell. But I honestly haven't heard anything with regards to Kubo.

I've begun looking deeper into the cast, and its not 100% Whitewashed. George Takei played "Hosato" (Japanese), and Minae Noji played... Minae (Kubo's Mom). Of course, GitS was all Japanese cast except for "The Major" and that didn't stop any controversy...

---------

In any case, I stand ready to be proven incorrect. If he comes back with a review or something that demonstrates Japanese-American outrage over this particular film, then I'll accept his point.

[gmalivuk]

I only learned about the casting problems in Kubo from Japanese-American friends talking about how gross it was, but none of them are Certified Movie Reviewers with mainstream media articles to their names, so I doubt KE would deem them worthy as Reliable Primary Sources on the matter.

But KE, you most recently mentioned the Japanese being mostly fine with GitS, and that's what my post was in response to in any case.

[KnightExemplar]

I only learned about the casting problems from Japanese-American friends talking about how gross it was, but none of them are Certified Movie Reviewers with mainstream media articles to their names, so I doubt KE would deem them worthy as Reliable Primary Sources on the matter.

Your snark is annoying, but I'll accept that as evidence if you just promise that you're being truthful on this issue.

[gmalivuk]

I guarantee you that my snark is less annoying to you than your repeatedly positioning yourself as Grand Arbiter of Acceptable Sources in Internet Arguments is to everyone else.

[The Great Hippo]

I only learned about the casting problems in Kubo from Japanese-American friends talking about how gross it was, but none of them are Certified Movie Reviewers with mainstream media articles to their names, so I doubt KE would deem them worthy as Reliable Primary Sources on the matter.

Fair enough, and -- just to clarify -- that's sufficient for me to feel comfortable describing it as (at the very least!) 'disrespectful'.

(Not that it is of any importance that you or anyone else receives my approval in this regard!)

[KnightExemplar]

I guarantee you that my snark is less annoying to you than your repeatedly positioning yourself as Grand Arbiter of Acceptable Sources in Internet Arguments is to everyone else.

I'm not sorry that I hold standards over arguments, and criticize people when they fail to meet my standards.

Beyond that, I'm no moderator and hold no power on this forum in any form. Everyone can ignore me if they wish, and I'm pretty sure this forum's software have "ignore lists" if people really find me that annoying.

Regardless, I honestly do care about improving the quality of discussion and I have no apologize for having those standards. The Primary / Secondary source thing is what I've learned from my social studies class to help figure out the quality of sources. I expect that other people who have studied humanities to some degree to be familiar with the concept. Indeed, I'd expect someone who really studied the humanities to actually be better than it than I am, since this sort of stuff is outside of my area of study. I'm not the arbiter. I just wish for people to understand these concepts so that we have better discussions in this arena.

Obviously, I recognize the fact that you don't appreciate my contributions to discussions. Your opinion of me has been noted several times in the past, and I'm cool with that.

[gmalivuk]

1) Japanese-Americans make up less than half a percent of the population. So no, not that many.

So you're saying there are more than five times as many Americans with Japanese ancestry as there are Americans named Christopher, and yet they seem to have no problem coming up with multiple white Christophers talented enough to play major leading roles.

[Zohar]

It really sounds like you're saying "those Japanese should consider themselves lucky"...

In contrast to my culture, they better believe it.

Fair. Doesn't mean we should ignore these issues. You can say "I'd rather concentrate on issues I find more pressing" if you like, but you don't need to disregard them.

Do you have any articles of a Japanese-American reviewer stating their opinion on Kubo and the Two Strings?

Give Zohar the chance to respond! Lol, I literally just issued the challenge
...
In any case, I stand ready to be proven incorrect. If he comes back with a review or something that demonstrates Japanese-American outrage over this particular film, then I'll accept his point.

I'm not sorry that I hold standards over arguments, and criticize people when they fail to meet my standards.

You know, I was going to post a few articles (extremely easy to find if you just google "Kubo and the Two Strings whitewashing" or "no Japanese") but you are such a sanctimonious pretentious jerk about the way you consistently expect people to accommodate you, and now I don't feel like it.

[SecondTalon]

Google shit your goddamn self, KE

[KnightExemplar]

Lets go back to Zohar's point then: since the Japanese seem to be mostly fine with Scarlet Johansson playing the role of "The Major"... does that make everything okay all of a sudden?

My point was Japanese and Japanese-American people could have different opinions and different interests. The fact that Japanese people in Japan have no issue with this casting doesn't mean it's not an issue. I'm sure, for instance, many Israelis wouldn't give a shit either, but Israelis are neither Americans nor Japanese, for the most part.

Do you have any articles of a Japanese-American reviewer stating their opinion on Kubo and the Two Strings?

Okay, I'm going to walk back to this post because from a few PMs this seems to be where my root mistake was.

* I'm sorry for issuing this challenge, I did not intend for it to be difficult to achieve or snarky or whatever.
* I accept the opinion of the various other posters that there is a degree of Japanese-American outrage over the whitewashing of the main-characters of this film.

I do believe that closes out this issue as well as bring full closure to the current line of discussion. If anyone feels like I left something out, send me a PM and I'll try to work something out. Beyond that, I hope that the above concessions are sufficient at ending this discussion ASAP. I do apologize for my harder debating style that is more calibrated for the N&A section of the forum... and I'll do what I can to be "nicer" in the High Culture forums.

This section of the forum is about discussing movies and have a bit more fun about it. And I've failed in keeping things fun.

[Flumble]

Finally seen it and it matched my expectations on average. Unfortunately the dialogue/verbal exposition was obnoxious at some points* (to me as an adult at least; it may be interesting for kids), but the story was good and the animation gorgeous. And the interaction between the monkey and the beetle was great.

Going back to Kubo specifically: the "Moon People" were so obviously the "Tale of Princess Kaguya". Its a very clear and well done interpretation IMO. They're the mystical, powerful moon people without emotions.

Indeed, the ideology of the Moon King immediately reminded me of Kaguya.


*

Spoiler:

They portrayed mother's dementia (at least that's what I read into it, since she was forgetful and absent at times) beautifully, without a word. But then defeating the final boss requires a monologue about honoring the dead? What happened to "show, don't tell"?