Spidey Take 3: Iron man edition

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Spidey Take 3: Iron man edition

Postby charliepanayi » Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:57 am UTC

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Re: Spiderman: Homecoming

Postby Diadem » Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:12 am UTC

I loved the scene with the bank robbers: "Wait a minute, you guys are not the real avengers".

It looks like they are gonna go with Tony Stark as a mentor for Spiderman. That's certainly an interesting approach, that might work very well, but could also backfire. We've seen so many origin stories by now that I think it's a good idea that Marvel is trying something new. I hope it works.

It is kinda weird that Iron Man is telling Spiderman that he's not ready yet, since he's the one who dragged him into Civil War. Granted, that was a conflict where no one was actually trying to kill him, but still. I hope they won't play that angle too much, because while "beginning super hero with mentor" could be a refreshing approach, the "you are not ready yet" one we've seen in pretty much every movie ever.
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Re: Spiderman: Homecoming

Postby rmsgrey » Fri Dec 09, 2016 5:04 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:It is kinda weird that Iron Man is telling Spiderman that he's not ready yet, since he's the one who dragged him into Civil War. Granted, that was a conflict where no one was actually trying to kill him, but still. I hope they won't play that angle too much, because while "beginning super hero with mentor" could be a refreshing approach, the "you are not ready yet" one we've seen in pretty much every movie ever.


It also kinda plays against Spiderman's best known character feature - the whole Great Power/Great Responsibility thing. If Spidey's sitting on the sidelines and bad things happen, because Tony told him to leave it to the grownups, that's not exactly greatly responsible...

On the other hand, it does fit with Tony's side of Civil War - he was the one arguing that the Avengers should follow outside rules and only intervene when the authorities approved, rather than Cap's position that the Avengers should be free to follow their own judgement on when they needed to intervene.

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Re: Spiderman: Homecoming

Postby CannedCourage » Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:18 pm UTC

I think they're setting him up to rebel against Tony.

Has Keaton been confirmed to be playing Vulture? Last I heard they were being coy about it. I had a feeling that casting him as Vulture after Birdman would be a little too on the nose. So, I've suspected for a while that he would really be playing Norman Osbourne, and nothing in this trailer contradicted that. I think it would be a waste of an actor to have Keaton portray Toomes.

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Re: Spiderman: Homecoming

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:03 pm UTC

I just want to see a super hero movie that isn't an origin story. And hopefully this one will be a kind of snapshot into post-uncle Ben existence. An already established Spiderman.
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Re: Spiderman: Homecoming

Postby rmsgrey » Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:02 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I just want to see a super hero movie that isn't an origin story. And hopefully this one will be a kind of snapshot into post-uncle Ben existence. An already established Spiderman.


Have you tried Superman Returns?

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Re: Spiderman: Homecoming

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:05 pm UTC

yeah, it wasn't bad. Thought, despite what I just said, I actually think the most recent Supermans (even the Batman vs) were the best.

I also loved Amazing Spiderman, but thought the second was even awesomer. I hope Spiderman: Homecoming is distinctly after his origin, is all I'm saying. We've seen Uncle Ben die so many times at this point.
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Re: Spiderman: Homecoming

Postby Angua » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:59 pm UTC

So, this is now out in the US as well (saw it on Wednesday). I thought it was pretty cute - a nice, genuine high school movie that hits most of the beats, while also making them better and shoving in some superpowers along the way. I thought they resisted over-using Tony (a welcome relief as he dominated the trailers) and it was pretty hilarious. Loads of great lines. I really liked what they did with Flash.

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Re: Spidey Take 3: Iron man edition

Postby charliepanayi » Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:30 pm UTC

I was genuinely stunned when
Spoiler:
we find out Vulture is Liz's father.


The action stuff was fairly same old same old, but I liked the high school stuff a lot. Zendaya channelling Daria for her character was especially funny (that Washington Monument bit!). Hope we see more of her in the sequel.

As for that second post-credit scene,
Spoiler:
Marvel are just straight up trolling us now
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Re: Spidey Take 3: Iron man edition

Postby rmsgrey » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:59 pm UTC

charliepanayi wrote:Zendaya channelling Daria for her character was especially funny

They're also teasing whether she knows Peter's secret alter ego or not - she certainly seems to be borderline stalking him and Ned judging by how often she keeps turning up on the edge of frame...

Also, there's a strong case to be made that:
Spoiler:
A lot of the disasters in the movie are not Peter's fault, but rather Tony and Happy's fault (collectively) for their mentoring style. Peter brings Vulture to Tony's attention, and, instead of directly saying "I'm on it", instead Tony says "ignore it, there are people who take care of these things" - making it no surprise that Peter, whose neighbourhood is getting trashed by Vulture's black-market weapons, continues to pursue Vulture's people. If either Tony or Happy had actually been mentoring Peter rather than leaving him to his own devices almost entirely, then Peter would have been able to trust them with the information about the attempted Damage Control heist, or have contacted them about the ferry rather than feeling he had to tackle it entirely on his own...


I also liked what they did with Flash.

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Re: Spiderman: Homecoming

Postby Gopher of Pern » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:28 am UTC

Angua wrote:So, this is now out in the US as well (saw it on Wednesday). I thought it was pretty cute - a nice, genuine high school movie that hits most of the beats, while also making them better and shoving in some superpowers along the way. I thought they resisted over-using Tony (a welcome relief as he dominated the trailers) and it was pretty hilarious. Loads of great lines. I really liked what they did with Flash.



Spoiler:
I'm not sure exactly how it inverts the standard superhero tropes. Sure, it doesn't have the whole discovery of powers thing (except when it does, in the case of the spider suit), but this is not an origin story. It was never meant to be. It's like saying Captain America:The Winter Soldier subverted the genre by not having Cap work on his powers. Spiderman was already introduced in Civil War. (Plus, I'm pretty sure that the Norton Hulk movie and the first Thor did not have them investigating their powers.)

And I agree with rmsgrey that it is primarily Iron Man and Happy to blame for most of the events in the movie. Spiderman does the responsible thing and tells them whats going on. But he is (somewhat) ignored (shades of Harry Potter, anyone?). Who thinks the showdown with the FBI on the ferry would have gone any better without Spiderman there?


Please put [spoiler] tags around spoilers, *especially* for new movies.
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Re: Spidey Take 3: Iron man edition

Postby Zohar » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:38 pm UTC

Watched it yesterday, generally enjoyed it, Michael Keaton was great, Spider-man was pretty good,school hijinks stuff was fine. A couple of things really bothered me:

First, the character for Spiderman's friend (who appears in the trailer) is 100% the character who was a friend of Miles Morales. I think there's something a bit uncomfortable about saying "Oh, this character in one of the few black-led comic books is awesome! Let's put them in this white character's movie!" I did appreciate the cast is very varied in terms of race, so it's not as bad I suppose, but still would have loved to see Miles Morales as Spider-man instead of Peter Parker for once.

Second issue is regarding the climax of the movie:
Spoiler:
So Tony Stark decides to move billions of dollars in weaponry that could cause immense damage and wreck havoc on the population, but doesn't bother securing it other than by using the plane's stealth systems? No manned defenses, no remotely-controlled Iron Man suits, no accompanying flight vehicle for support? Absolutely ridiculous.
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Re: Spidey Take 3: Iron man edition

Postby EdgarJPublius » Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:06 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
Spoiler:
So Tony Stark decides to move billions of dollars in weaponry that could cause immense damage and wreck havoc on the population, but doesn't bother securing it other than by using the plane's stealth systems? No manned defenses, no remotely-controlled Iron Man suits, no accompanying flight vehicle for support? Absolutely ridiculous.

Spoiler:
I think that's 100% in character for MCU Tony Stark though.
Similarly the 'Damage Control' storage facility is supposed to be the 'most secure facility int he world' or whatever, but there's apparently little-to-no screening of the incoming containers for like people or bombs or whatever, and no cameras or other sensors in the actual storage warehouse. If Toomes had just hidden in the container with one of those portal thingy's, he could have had his pick of everything that was stored at the facility
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Re: Spidey Take 3: Iron man edition

Postby Zohar » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:07 pm UTC

I don't know if that's in-character or not, Edgar, but the second thing you mentioned is definitely another example.
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Re: Spidey Take 3: Iron man edition

Postby rmsgrey » Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:52 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Second issue is regarding the climax of the movie:
Spoiler:
So Tony Stark decides to move billions of dollars in weaponry that could cause immense damage and wreck havoc on the population, but doesn't bother securing it other than by using the plane's stealth systems? No manned defenses, no remotely-controlled Iron Man suits, no accompanying flight vehicle for support? Absolutely ridiculous.


It's worth considering that:
Spoiler:
By Tony's standards, this stuff is the boxes in the attic, or on top of the wardrobe - stuff you don't want to throw out, but don't place any particular value on - so it makes sense that, while Tony would want it sent securely, he wouldn't want to bother with making sure it is. Remember, this is the guy who littered the place with Iron Man armour components with his Clean Slate protocol - the cleanup crew for that job may not have scored any Chitauri power cells, but they'd be looking at a whole heap of bleeding-edge Stark tech...

What Tony misses (at least on an emotional level - intellectually, he's aware enough of it to have put Damage Control together) is that, for anyone who isn't an Avenger or on their level, all these trinkets are going to put whoever lays their hands on them well ahead of anyone else around, including the cops, so it's not surprising that he's too casual about his old toys.

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Re: Spidey Take 3: Iron man edition

Postby Zohar » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:33 pm UTC

Spoiler:
I don't think that fits his character. Almost all of his stories are about him creating something and then it being used against him and people he loves and wants to protect. That's literally the plot of Iron Man 1 and 2 and Avengers Age of Ultron, not to mention the entire rationale for him becoming Iron Man in the first place. If he doesn't know better, I don't think it's him being flippant, it's lazy writing.
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Re: Spidey Take 3: Iron man edition

Postby rmsgrey » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:53 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
Spoiler:
I don't think that fits his character. Almost all of his stories are about him creating something and then it being used against him and people he loves and wants to protect. That's literally the plot of Iron Man 1 and 2 and Avengers Age of Ultron, not to mention the entire rationale for him becoming Iron Man in the first place. If he doesn't know better, I don't think it's him being flippant, it's lazy writing.

Spoiler:
I'm sure Tony keeps an eye on his recent suit models and any recent/active Avengers tech, but not every better mousetrap or pointy stick he's ever come up with - and even his grade-school science fair projects are better than stuff you can get on the open market...


You know, I think we're far enough off on a tangent that we don't need spoilers.

Tony Stark is careless about advanced tech because he doesn't view it as advanced - so much of it is just so obvious and easy to throw together that surely everyone has one already... At least until he stops to think about it properly - and only while he's still focused on it.

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Re: Spidey Take 3: Iron man edition

Postby EdgarJPublius » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:24 am UTC

Zohar wrote:
Spoiler:
I don't think that fits his character. Almost all of his stories are about him creating something and then it being used against him and people he loves and wants to protect. That's literally the plot of Iron Man 1 and 2 and Avengers Age of Ultron, not to mention the entire rationale for him becoming Iron Man in the first place. If he doesn't know better, I don't think it's him being flippant, it's lazy writing.


Spoiler:
I think those examples are a great illustration of the point. Tony Stark only really pays attention to things until he has 'solved' the immediate problem, or it ceases to be interesting to him. In iron Man 2 we see that the lingering problems from Iron Man 1 were never really solved, he doesn't want Stark Ind. to sell weapons anymore, but hasn't really given any thought to what the company should be doing, so he foists it off on Pepper so he doesn't have to think about it anymore and can go back to solving problems he finds more interesting. Tony never really solved the 'shrapnel in chest slowly killing him' thing, was just content to postpone it with the chest-mounted ARC reactor until that started killing him. Even then, he probably would have kept on ignoring it as best he could until Fury gave him a new problem to solve that happened to also solve the 'Arc Reactor Poisoning' problem (but again, not the 'shrapnel in chest' problem). The entire cause of the problems in Age of Ultron is that Stark didn't want to have to deal with the 'boring' parts of being an Avenger, so he hacked together some parts he had laying around to do it for him. Then again, in Civil War, Stark is all too happy abdicating from trying to navigate all the tricky ethical and legal ramifications of being an Avenger to somebody else so he can do the stuff that interests him without worrying about it.

The two things in Spider-Man are just extensions of that basic attitude. He's got a sweet new facility upstate to play around with, but all the boring logistical stuff gets left for Happy to deal with, probably on a relative shoestring budget. Similarly, Stark is about as interested in keeping the Chitauri tech out of civilian hands as he is in keeping Stark Industries from selling weapons. Which is to say, he creates Damage Control to lock all the alien technology up in a secure-ish warehouse where he can forget about it.

It's also consistent with his attitude towards Peter. he builds a sweet suit so he can have Spider Man be his ace-in-the-hole for confronting Captain America during Civil War, then drops it and him back in New York City when that's done and mostly ignores Peter until things get out of hand.

And I'm not trying to say that MCU Tony Stark hasn't developed or grown as a character. He's definitely become more mature and responsible in his personal life and has become more aware of and concerned with problems afflicting people other than himself. He's trying hard to be better as an Avenger, but he still has that fundamentally short-sided inability to pay attention or consider issues that aren't personally interesting or of some immediate concern.
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Re: Spidey Take 3: Iron man edition

Postby Zohar » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:04 pm UTC

Spoiler:
You make good points. I guess the thing that most surprising to me is he doesn't have Pepper (or someone more competent than Happy, who's terrible at his job) take care of all of this logistical stuff.
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Re: Spidey Take 3: Iron man edition

Postby rmsgrey » Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:02 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
Spoiler:
You make good points. I guess the thing that most surprising to me is he doesn't have Pepper (or someone more competent than Happy, who's terrible at his job) take care of all of this logistical stuff.


Yeah, Tony definitely needs to either find a competent caretaker for Happy to keep him out of trouble, or a safe sandbox for him, but I can appreciate the sort of loyalty that keeps giving Happy almost-important jobs...


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