The Misogyny Kool-Aid

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The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby Millumi » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:28 am UTC

I'm wondering, has anyone here has seen The Misogyny Kool-Aid documentary?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLzeakKC6fE
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:34 pm UTC

As somebody who's genuinely concerned over the pervasive, systematic assault on men's physical and emotional well-being -- through constructs such as toxic masculinity, male disposability, and straight-up violence (both sexual and non), this sort of thing interests me -- so I decided to look up the documentary.

Then I saw that one of the interviews is with Paul Elam. The guy who used to run 'Register-Her.com' -- the website that published names and photographs of women who somehow displeased him, in an attempt to (and I'm quoting both Mr. Elam and his website's motto, here) 'Fuck Their Shit Up'.

Let me provide a few choice quotes from this wonderful human being for you. Spoilered for extremely threatening language:
Spoiler:
If Mary Jane Rottencrotch out there wants to say that her husband beat her just for the sake of gaining leverage in a divorce he will now have a resource where he can come and post your name, your picture, your work telephone number, your address, perhaps even your route you take to get to work, if you bother to have a job.
We have her image and know her general location. We will identify her and profile her activity and name for public view.

We will not stop there, or just with her. And while we will not publish our complete intent, we are dogged in our efforts. …
And the answer is, of course, no, I am not going to stop. You see, I find you, as a feminist, to be a loathsome, vile piece of human garbage. I find you so pernicious and repugnant that the idea of fucking your shit up gives me an erection. ... We are coming for you, and we are coming for all the liars out there that have been ruining people’s lives with impunity. ... You are SO fucked.
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby Weeks » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:10 pm UTC

Millumi wrote:I'm wondering, has anyone here has seen The Misogyny Kool-Aid documentary?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLzeakKC6fE

I don't read things by misogynists, OP.
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:19 pm UTC

Once Redpillers start arguing in favor of men crying in public, I'll think about considering giving a shit about what they think and not just blanket considering all of them to be misguided misogynistic wastes of flesh.
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:56 pm UTC

I'll add this to my list of things to watch in case I ever find myself with a bit too much faith in humanity, and need to remind myself that many humans are in fact garbage.
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby Millumi » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:59 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:As somebody who's genuinely concerned over the pervasive, systematic assault on men's physical and emotional well-being -- through constructs such as toxic masculinity, male disposability, and straight-up violence (both sexual and non), this sort of thing interests me -- so I decided to look up the documentary.

Then I saw that one of the interviews is with Paul Elam. The guy who used to run 'Register-Her.com' -- the website that published names and photographs of women who somehow displeased him, in an attempt to (and I'm quoting both Mr. Elam and his website's motto, here) 'Fuck Their Shit Up'.

If I had to guess, that was probably made in response to an app that was made to document on-campus sexual assaults:
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/ ... pe/405607/
False accusations can be seriously harmful to boys in college.
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby HES » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:05 pm UTC

Rape can be seriously harmful to women (and men) in college.
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby Weeks » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:16 pm UTC

Millumi wrote:False accusations can be seriously harmful to boys in college.
Thanks for the tip bro.

Anything else in your MRA checklist to discuss with us?
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby Thesh » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:19 pm UTC

Millumi wrote:If I had to guess, that was probably made in response to an app that was made to document on-campus sexual assaults:
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/ ... pe/405607/
False accusations can be seriously harmful to boys in college.

I'm not sure what your point is. That article describes an app that is designed to allow victims to file reports, acting as an information escrow that is designed to protect the identities of both the victim and the accused, which only provides reports to authorities. What that piece of shit created is a website designed to publicly disclose the information of people solely for the sake of harassment.
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:38 pm UTC

HES wrote:Rape can be seriously harmful to women (and men) in college.
And is at least a couple orders of magnitude more common than false reports of rape.
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby Xanthir » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:48 pm UTC

Re: the app (Callisto), I know two people personally who are working on that. It's a really good thing - it keeps things secret until it gets *more* reports about the same person (and it's definitely not limited to "women reporting men"; that just happens to be the common case because people are garbage). The whole point of it is to avoid all the common problems with people reporting assault (mainly, getting smeared as a false accuser because "nobody else has a problem with them") while also minimizing pile-on possibility (because nobody else knows about the report until it starts getting more support). Outside of coordinated false accusations by a group (which doesn't require an app to coordinate or perform), it really does help cut the knot of assault allegations.
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:04 pm UTC

Some years back I had some interest in what the MRA movement was up to. I think there are definitely some specific issues where they have legitimate grievances that are probably worthwhile causes to deal with (eg. the prevalence of prison rape and how seriously it is treated, the preferential treatment some jurisdictions tend to give women in child custody disputes). The problem is that the movement as a whole is dominated by raving douchebags that are more concerned with the supposed evils of feminism and whining about how oppressed they are, mixed with an unhealthy dose of outright misogyny, than they are with the issues they profess to care about. They have no clue how to be productive activists, and don't really appear to have any interest in learning how to do so. If anything, they've made things harder for people actually trying to do productive work on their legitimate grievances, because now any time somebody tries to open a Men's Crisis Center or something, it's going to be assumed to be some sort of a political statement rather than maybe filling a legitimate need

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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby Zohar » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:13 pm UTC

Also it's worth noting that reporting rape is almost always a terrible experience for the reporter. I actually know quite a bit about this because my husband has been working for over a year on a study regarding sexual harassment and rape on Columbia university campuses. Of all the people they've interviewed in the study (several hundreds), by far the ones that had the worst experience with sexual assaults are the ones that had to deal with university authorities (many of them were forced to due to mandatory reporting).

My point is, false accusations are incredibly uncommon, actual sexual assault is incredibly common, and while of course false accusations are bad, providing tools to hound every woman that dares to complain is vicious and should be illegal.
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:24 pm UTC

A lot of shitbags - excuse me, MRAs, assume that a dropped rape charge is the same as a false rape accusation.

Because they can't fathom that a rape victim, having their lives continually disrupted and constantly questioned ("Did you *really* want it and just changed your mind later?") might want to just drop the fucking thing and try to move on with their lives, not being stuck in the same shitty moment for possibly years.
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby SlyReaper » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:14 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:My point is, false accusations are incredibly uncommon, actual sexual assault is incredibly common


How do you know? So many rape cases come down to one person's word against the other's, there doesn't seem to be any robust way to measure the false allegation rate. Googling the question took me to this page: http://www.datagoneodd.com/blog/2015/01/25/how-to-lie-and-mislead-with-rape-statistics-part-1/. It doesn't give the answer, but it highlights the problems with trying to measure something like that, and how you can spin whichever narrative you want if you cherry pick where you're getting your numbers from. One study estimates the number between 2% and 8%. Another estimates 41%. Both are based on various assumptions and caveats, and cherry pick different data sets.
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby Zohar » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:39 pm UTC

Let me put it this way - a ridiculously low number of sexual assaults and rape are actually reported to the authorities1. Even assuming ALL rape accusations are fake, the number of actual rapes vastly outnumbers the complaints.

1From the same study I mentioned, out of ~250 people they've interviewed in-depth from all areas on campus, about 25% are rape victims, but only four cases were forwarded to the authorities. They have also surveyed thousands of university students but I don't know their numerical results since my husband works on the qualitative team, not the quantitative one.
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby Millumi » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:42 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Let me put it this way - a ridiculously low number of sexual assaults and rape are actually reported to the authorities1. Even assuming ALL rape accusations are fake, the number of actual rapes vastly outnumbers the complaints.

1From the same study I mentioned, out of ~250 people they've interviewed in-depth from all areas on campus, about 25% are rape victims, but only four cases were forwarded to the authorities. They have also surveyed thousands of university students but I don't know their numerical results since my husband works on the qualitative team, not the quantitative one.

Unless you have the specific methodology used in the survey on how they classified 'rape victims', I'm not sure you should trust that data set for argumentative purposes.
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby Weeks » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:51 pm UTC

Millumi wrote:'rape victims'
'false accusations'
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:58 pm UTC

Millumi wrote:Unless you have the specific methodology used in the survey on how they classified 'rape victims', I'm not sure you should trust that data set for argumentative purposes.
Unless you have specific evidence against the claim, I'm not sure we should trust your gut just because you don't like the (fairly consistent) numbers research comes up with for that statistic.
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby Zohar » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:02 pm UTC

Millumi wrote:Unless you have the specific methodology used in the survey on how they classified 'rape victims', I'm not sure you should trust that data set for argumentative purposes.

Lucky for you, this is a research done by academics, and they do have specific methodology for these things. Unfortunately for you, not all papers have been completed yet so I can't actually cite you sources. However, this is certainly not the first study into sexual assault rates (vs. reported rates) in the population, and a quick google search finds plenty of evidence supporting my claim.
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:06 pm UTC

Millumi wrote:
Zohar wrote:My husband is involved in working with the data from a study that discusses rape and here's the numbers as I recall them, keep in mind I'm not my husband also HIPPA and such.

You can't cite anything or give any detail so your argument is invalid, now back to this documentary with no mentioned sources, methodology, and deep criticisms of it's flawed journalism.



That's what you sound like.
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby Millumi » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:09 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Millumi wrote:Unless you have the specific methodology used in the survey on how they classified 'rape victims', I'm not sure you should trust that data set for argumentative purposes.
Unless you have specific evidence against the claim, I'm not sure we should trust your gut just because you don't like the (fairly consistent) numbers research comes up with for that statistic.

"You can make statistics say anything if you torture them enough"
It doesn't matter how many statistics you have if they conflate the meaning of rape with less egregious things that do not belong anywhere near that same category. This is a serious issue that pops up often in the social sciences, especially if the media gets involved with reporting the study as something bigger than it actually is.
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby Weeks » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:10 pm UTC

I need you to give me some statistics. Also statistics don't matter lol

But I'm sure this is all well addressed by the award winning documentary "The Misogyny Kool-Aid" by the not-misogynist Paul Manpower.
Last edited by Weeks on Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:12 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:12 pm UTC

Let me lay it out for you, what exactly is happening here.

You are in favor of segregation.

You've linked to a comic drawn by a fucking Neo-Nazi.

This shit here.


We're playing a game called "Can Millumi not fuck up?"

You're losing. Badly.

Stop losing. Examine what it is that's making you such a shitty person. Stop doing that.

Or, if you don't want to do that, we can fast forward to the inevitable and I can just go ahead and ban you. Save future me some time, and maybe keep Belial from making that awful screeching sound they make when they ban someone.
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby Millumi » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:17 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:Let me lay it out for you, what exactly is happening here.

You are in favor of segregation.

You've linked to a comic drawn by a fucking Neo-Nazi.

This shit here.


We're playing a game called "Can Millumi not fuck up?"

You're losing. Badly.

Stop losing. Examine what it is that's making you such a shitty person. Stop doing that.

Or, if you don't want to do that, we can fast forward to the inevitable and I can just go ahead and ban you. Save future me some time, and maybe keep Belial from making that awful screeching sound they make when they ban someone.

1. I never said I was in favor of segregation. I said an argument could be made for it if you could resolve the issues associated with it.
2. I'm not sure of the redpanels guy's views, I think he was actually an ancap or something. Regardless, the comic I posted is just one comic, and not even associated with neonazi shit.

Tell me, what rule have I broken?
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:22 pm UTC

Of the overall rules, #1. Lots of things you've posted are trolling. Of the High Culture rules, #7.

And now #12 of the overall rules.
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:37 pm UTC

Millumi wrote:If I had to guess, that was probably made in response to an app that was made to document on-campus sexual assaults:
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/ ... pe/405607/
False accusations can be seriously harmful to boys in college.
I don't care what it was made in response to. In bizarro gender-reverse world, where uber-feminist Paula Elam made 'Register-Him.com' to register all the men that displeased her -- while using this same threatening language toward them -- she would also be a piece of shit.

And I tend not to watch documentaries that champion or otherwise lionize pieces of shit.

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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby Xanthir » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:50 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Some years back I had some interest in what the MRA movement was up to. I think there are definitely some specific issues where they have legitimate grievances that are probably worthwhile causes to deal with (eg. the prevalence of prison rape and how seriously it is treated, the preferential treatment some jurisdictions tend to give women in child custody disputes). The problem is that the movement as a whole is dominated by raving douchebags that are more concerned with the supposed evils of feminism and whining about how oppressed they are, mixed with an unhealthy dose of outright misogyny, than they are with the issues they profess to care about. They have no clue how to be productive activists, and don't really appear to have any interest in learning how to do so. If anything, they've made things harder for people actually trying to do productive work on their legitimate grievances, because now any time somebody tries to open a Men's Crisis Center or something, it's going to be assumed to be some sort of a political statement rather than maybe filling a legitimate need

Yup. The real issues of anti-male sexism are almost entirely *perpetuated* by men or masculinity (prison rape being a joke is a combination of homophobia and our obsession with prison-as-punishment rather than prison-as-recovery; men losing child custody most of the time is due to the masculine trope that women are meant for and best at child-raising while men should be out earning money; etc), not by some mysterious feminine lobby. It's a prison of our own devising, and the MRAs make it extremely hard to legitimately solve these issues.
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:10 pm UTC

Xanthir wrote:Yup. The real issues of anti-male sexism are almost entirely *perpetuated* by men or masculinity (prison rape being a joke is a combination of homophobia and our obsession with prison-as-punishment rather than prison-as-recovery; men losing child custody most of the time is due to the masculine trope that women are meant for and best at child-raising while men should be out earning money; etc), not by some mysterious feminine lobby. It's a prison of our own devising, and the MRAs make it extremely hard to legitimately solve these issues.
While I get what you're saying, and I largely agree, I'm wary of the phrase 'prison of our own devising'. It feels a little perverse to describe it that way in the face of, say, sexual assault that targets men, or violence perpetuated toward men. The social constructs and pressures responsible for destroying the lives of men are largely enforced by other men, but that doesn't imply that a man in pain therefore has only himself to blame.

(Not that that was what you were implying -- but I always grimace a little when I hear things like 'prison of our own devising', because that's what it implies to me)

There's a lot of places where it's possible to be a positive supporter of men. Police violence disproportionately impacts men (specifically, men of color, but last I checked, black men still count as men); do MRAs support movements like Black Lives Matter? That would be a huge step in the right direction.

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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby Fractal_Tangent » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:46 pm UTC

That is such a good point, the MRA movement getting focussed on specific groups of disenfranchised men would do a lot for their rep I think. Little/no focus on feminism and more of a focus on how to deal with police brutality against black men, or helping soldiers with PTSD or breaking down stigmas facing LGBT men.
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby Xanthir » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:49 pm UTC

Sexual assault that targets men is laughed off not because of feminism, but because of toxic masculinity - (a) men are strong and women are weak, so it's impossible for a man to be raped by a woman, and (b) men always want sex, so anyone claiming they didn't want it is joking or a weirdo - which is largely maintained by us men.

I'm not meaning that the individual man is to blame for his troubles, but that men and masculine culture, in general, are.

do MRAs support movements like Black Lives Matter? That would be a huge step in the right direction.

MRA groups are almost entirely infiltrated by white supremacists, so no.
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:32 pm UTC

Xanthir wrote:I'm not meaning that the individual man is to blame for his troubles, but that men and masculine culture, in general, are.
I figured this is what you meant, yeah -- I beg pardon if I implied otherwise!

Unrelated: I'm not going to watch this documentary, because fucking Paul Elam are you serious lady you couldn't even do a fucking Google search before you interviewed him? -- but... There is definitely a problem regarding bringing up issues like toxic masculinity and systematic assaults on men (both physical and emotional) without getting your shit handed to you.

You can't do it in most masculine-coded spaces, because a lot of those masculine-coded spaces are part of the problem. It's hard to talk about how the cultural expectations we put on men are so suffocating in a space where those cultural expectations are being enforced. And you can't do it in most feminism-coded spaces, because 1) it's not really what those spaces are for, and 2) it can be super-hard for a feminist to listen to a man talk about toxic masculinity and not hear 'waah waah, feminism sucks'. And when you've got shitlords like Paul Elam -- men who are misogynists in the most precise sense of the word -- screeching away about the evils of feminism? It becomes really, really hard to blame feminists for having selective hearing. But at the same time, it puts men who are suffering in an extraordinarily frustrating, shitty position.

We're drowning in a culture that glorifies our physical and emotional destruction. Those men who buy into this culture won't talk to us, because they think we're "wussies". Most feminists* won't talk to us, because they think our pain is an attack on feminism. The only people who seem to want to talk to us are people like... fucking Paul Elam.

And, like -- okay, if Paul Elam is my only option, then fuck it, I'll just go ahead and not be heard. But I understand why others might be desperate enough to talk to people like him -- even form communities around people like him -- and while I think that's horrible, it's hard for me to also be too angry with them. I mean, what other options are there? What positive, non-toxic spaces exist for men?

* I've met numerous feminists who do want to talk to us, and don't see expressions of male suffering as an attack on feminism -- and I'm deeply thankful for them. I also don't think feminists are obligated to give a shit about men's issues.

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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby Millumi » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:41 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
Xanthir wrote:I'm not meaning that the individual man is to blame for his troubles, but that men and masculine culture, in general, are.
I figured this is what you meant, yeah -- I beg pardon if I implied otherwise!

Unrelated: I'm not going to watch this documentary, because fucking Paul Elam are you serious lady you couldn't even do a fucking Google search before you interviewed him? -- but... There is definitely a problem regarding bringing up issues like toxic masculinity and systematic assaults on men (both physical and emotional) without getting your shit handed to you.
* I've met numerous feminists who do want to talk to us, and I'm deeply thankful for them. I also don't think feminists are obligated to give a shit about men's issues.

You know that the creator of The Misogyny Kool-Aid movie was a feminist when they started looking into it, right?
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:44 pm UTC

Millumi wrote:You know that the creator of The Misogyny Kool-Aid movie was a feminist when they started looking into it, right?
Yes, I'm aware. It's basically the tagline of the whole documentary. In what sense does that matter?

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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby Millumi » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:51 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
Millumi wrote:You know that the creator of The Misogyny Kool-Aid movie was a feminist when they started looking into it, right?
Yes, I'm aware. It's basically the tagline of the whole documentary. In what sense does that matter?

If you were going to make a documentary on the MRA movement as a whole, why would you intentionally leave out bad elements of it?
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:52 pm UTC

Lots of people can be convinced to believe in bullshit (or can be convinced to claim they were convinced, if there's money in it).
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:54 pm UTC

Millumi wrote:If you were going to make a documentary on the MRA movement as a whole, why would you intentionally leave out bad elements of it?
Uh... what?

The post of mine you quoted asked why she didn't bother to Google him. I'm presuming the reason she's acting like Paul Elam is a super-cool guy is because she didn't take the time to research him. I'm not accusing her of being deceptive; I'm accusing her of being a shitty researcher.

I mean, maybe she is being deceptive; I don't know. I would much prefer to think she's just bad at documentaries.

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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:00 am UTC

Millumi wrote:You know that the creator of The Misogyny Kool-Aid movie was a feminist when they started looking into it, right?


So... she's no longer a feminist?

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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:04 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
Xanthir wrote:I'm not meaning that the individual man is to blame for his troubles, but that men and masculine culture, in general, are.
I figured this is what you meant, yeah -- I beg pardon if I implied otherwise!

Unrelated: I'm not going to watch this documentary, because fucking Paul Elam are you serious lady you couldn't even do a fucking Google search before you interviewed him? -- but... There is definitely a problem regarding bringing up issues like toxic masculinity and systematic assaults on men (both physical and emotional) without getting your shit handed to you.


Honestly, it looks like the point of the documentary is to find the biggest MRAs and interview them. So from that perspective, I think that yeah, having a face-to-face interview with him sounds like the very point of the documentary.

I can't say that I'm generally interested in documentaries (I think I grew sick of them in general years ago). But learning more about Men's Right Activists can only be a good thing. As usual though, documentaries push a political slant very strongly, and any fact discussed by a documentary needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I generally see the vast majority of documentaries to be just propaganda-filled crap. Especially when they're done by smaller groups and more individual artists. I think I generally am fine watching a documentary by a larger news organization (ie: Frontline documentaries are generally fine).

In any case, without watching the movie (and only seeing a few clips from the trailer), it seems unfair to judge. Maybe she really does bring up how much of a dick Paul Elam has been. But in any case, it sounds like he's a big figure in the MRA field. So he's an obvious interview target if someone was to explore the field.
Last edited by KnightExemplar on Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:08 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Misogyny Kool-Aid

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:07 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:So... she's no longer a feminist?
Apparently, the documentary ends with her abandoning her feminism (her 'core beliefs') and walking off into the sunset. Or something.

Which, I mean, okay; I'm not gonna judge without watching the documentary, but... if a pacifist goes to make a war-documentary, and by the end, the documentary is super-pro-war -- and they end up abandoning their pacifism and embracing the necessity of war -- that is not, in of itself, evidence that pacifism is bad and war is good.

The fact that people believe otherwise is more than a little infuriating.
KnightExemplar wrote:Honestly, it looks like the point of the documentary is to find the biggest MRAs and interview them. So from that perspective, I think that yeah, having a face-to-face interview with him sounds like the very point of the documentary.
If the point of the documentary is talk about MRAs, then sure, interview Paul Elam (and make sure to ask him about all those times he's publicly threatened women).

But if the point of the documentary is to provide a positive perspectives on MRAs, then no -- you do not interview Paul Elam.


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